EV Digest 6364
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Should I say 'Peak Lithium' ?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: MBTF for EV components? (was RE: Engine out)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) (fwd) PHEV conversions and [NiMH] Batteries
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Offer of Assistance (RE: Issues with K&W charger)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Issues with K&W charger
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: MBTF for EV components I can replace
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Should I say 'Peak Lithium' ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Discharged Batteries
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: MBTF for EV components? (was RE: Engine out)
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Discharged Batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Issues with K&W charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: [EV] Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Freezing temps affect lithium ion battery charging
by Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: my battery fire
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Where did the RAV4 go?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Discharged (used) Batteries
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: my battery fire
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) electrovaya BEV SUV
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Thanks FLEAA
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
> Also, using lithium in batteries doesn't use it up, like burning
> petroleum. The worn out batteries are recyclable.
>
> And this doesn't even address all of the errors in the article.
Perhaps you didn't read the author's responses to all the critiques to his
article.
I read them all. In the end, I think only one critic remained unconvinced.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:30:57 -0800
What makes EVs great is that electricity can be created by many sources and
stored in many ways. They are not beholden to any particular technology,
the best most flexible and nimble vehicle.
Jack
Actually I would argue that what makes EVs bad is that we do not have any
good ways to store electricity in an EV environment.
A low cost, high density, low mass, and safe electricity storage system
would be the killer piece to make EVs a no brainer. To me it seems that
every compromise we make to drive EVs boils down to our inability to store
electricity in a manner that meets our needs. I totally agree with the part
about being able to create electricity from a variety of sources though.
damon
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Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > MTBF's for industrial induction motors are in the 20,000 to
> > 50,000 hour region, and VFD's are somewhat lower (10,000 to
> > 30,000). I would expect automotive VFD's and motors to be more
> > stressed, so those numbers will be lower in an EV application.
> > Still, even 6,000 hours is going to be a lot of distance... - Dale
> ...6,000hrs x 40mph avg = 240,000 mi... Say we round down to 200,000.
> Given most of us don't go more than 50 mi/day in our EVs, that tells
> me the motor should last over 10 years of daily use... - Matt
This degree of reliability doesn't seem to map well with the amount of
personal attention and repair that chargers and batteries seem to
require in real-life, as reported on this mailing list.
I may need to adjust my expectations -- with ICEs, there are:
* durable items (frame, body, infrastructure, etc.)
* service items needing infrequent repair (brakes, tires, starting
battery, etc.)
* regular service items (oil change, chassis lube, etc.)
* consumable items (fuel)
Is it fair to say the following of EVs?
* durable items (frame, body, infrastructure, etc.)
* service items needing infrequent repair (BATTERY BRUSHES, brakes,
tires, 12V battery, etc.)
* regular service items (battery and chargers)
* consumable items (battery water)
Thinking out loud, the significant added efforts for EVs seem to revolve
around batteries and chargers... does that map with experience? The
significant subtracted efforts relative to ICEs are fuel fill-ups, oil
changes, and ICE mechanical maintenance. This may seem obvious, but I
state it to see if I am I missing anything...
If you can make batteries last, it tips the balance in favor of EVs, for
me. That seems to be the rub.
>From my reading, it would seem that expensive battery and charger
technologies *OR* time-intensive individual attention can help lengthen
battery MBTF... would anyone care to venture an MBTF estimate for a
hobbyist first pack? Second pack?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps of interest to those keeping an eye out for new battery
approaches.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martha Jensen
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 11:01 AM
Subject: [RAV4-EV] PHEV conversions and Batteries
I apologize in advance as this is slightly off-topic. I'm working at
a NiMH battery start-up that would like to get batteries into HEVs and
PHEVs. We're looking for people that are interested in doing a PHEV
conversion to test some batteries for us. We would arrange a
below-market lease for the batteries, as well as some technical
assistance in performing the conversion, in exchange for regular data
dumps and information on performance.
If you or anyone you know are interested, please contact me and I will
provide more information on the program. We are located in the Denver
Colorado area, and would give preference to people located in
geographical proximity for logistical reasons.
Martha Jensen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
V (303) 662-8891
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, I manage a publications group these days, and as middle
management, have precious little opportunity to perform the work that I
manage. If you forward me documents that need converted to PDF, be they
Word, Excel, WordPerfect, HTML, gif, or whatever (it may be tough to
surprise me!), I'd be happy to help turn them around and send them back
to you as PDFs.
I'm hoping to repay a little to the EV community, from which I have
learned (and am still learning) so much.
Thanks for all your efforts on the EVDL!
Randii
Randy Burleson
VPD Supervisor
VeriFone Product Documentation
Desk: 916-630-3576
Cell: 916-223-1608
-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Issues with K&W charger
On 29 Jan 2007 at 17:59, Bob Bath wrote:
> I can fax you a [BC-20] manual if you don't already have one
I wasn't going to announce this yet for a while, but you can download
this
manual from the nascent EVDL library :
http://www.evdl.org/lib/
On that page I'm gradually amassing a collection of manuals and data for
old, obsolete, and unsupported (but still serviceable ;-) EV components.
There you'll find Lee Hart's invaluable basic lead acid charging
instructions (and some of his funny stuff too ;-).
I have other information and manuals for various batteries and a few
chargers (controllers and inverters soon). For example, you'll find a
manual for the very obscure and very old (early '90s) Crusing Equipment
Amp-
Hour meter, forerunner of the E-meter and a Cybortronics charger (2
pages!).
I'm working on manuals for early Lester chargers and ancient PMC
controllers.
There's even a small section on general information and EV history,
which I
plan to keep small by being rather circumspect about what I post there,
and
a "just for fun" section currently populated by the best of Lee Hart's
Dickensian and filk creations - this also will stay fairly small.
If you have something to donate, you're welcome to contact me by private
email (don't reply on list please). My private address changes from
time to
time, but you can always find either the address or a contact method at
the
bottom of the evdl help page -
http://www.evdl.org/help/
When submitting please take note of these guidelines :
1. Be mindful of copyright. Many old documents have the status of
"abandonware," long since forgotten by the organizations or companies
which
originally published them. But it's usually unwise to attract the
attention
of large corporations and their attorneys.
2. Please make the format as turnkey as possible since I don't have a
lot of
time to spend on this.
PDF is what I prefer, and use for the majority of what I'm posting,
because
of its crossplatform nature. I can convert jpeg and other graphic scans
to
pdf, but it's a bit of a pain and I'd rather you did it for me. ;-)
If you use Adobe Acrobat, please use older versions (5 or earlier) for
the
widest compatibility.
Cutewriter ( http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp ) will
turn
anything you can print (in one round) into pdf, and it's genuine
freeware
for personal use. It uses Ghostscript.
HTML is OK as long as you provide all of the images required.
3. I prefer not to post proprietary formats such as Microsoft Word and
Excel
documents. If you want to make such proprietary material available to
EV
list members, I'll be glad to host it for downloading, but I may not
place a
link to it on the library page(s).
4. As page editor I reserve the right to the final decision on what to
post.
If I don't think an item submitted will have sufficient interest for
the EV
hobbyist community, or just plain isn't appropriate for one reason or
another, I may thank you, but not actually post it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter - sent you the following off-list, but it bounced. I'm guessing you
restrict to only list posts to that email address. Original text below:
Let me know if that improves anything or just gives you more ability to fry
the wiring. :)
If it works out well for you, let me know and I'd be glad to buy one of the
extras from you...
Matt
On 1/29/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm having the same problem. I suspect the breaker is defective.
I bought some new breakers off eBay and I'm planning on replacing it.
FWIW here is an eBay listing for the same breakers I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110085909060
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randii wrote
Is it fair to say the following of EVs?
* durable items (frame, body, infrastructure, etc.
***About the same as for my ICE.
Thinking out loud, the significant added efforts for EVs seem to revolve
around batteries and chargers... does that map with experience?
I can no longer even replace the spark plugs in my ICE. After replacing
the alternator 3 times in 3 months ( a full day's job for me working alone)
I no longer do any engine maintenance, other than radiator water and a
new battery. Fortunately, my EV makes maintenance on my 2nd car -
the ICE - few and far between.
I love my EV - I know how to add battery water. I can fix most of my
half-dozen chargers, or charge directly from my
48 volt solar system. The simplicity of my EV lets me be a DIY mechanic
again.
New batteries last July. It's been 6 months, and they just now need
water, 2500 miles later.
The hardest part, as with my solar system, has been the learning curve.
Once past that it is down-hill all the way!
John in Sylmar, CA
1981 Ford Escort - Jet Electrica PV powered.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have all the facts, so I'll partially retract my previous statement.
I still disagree that we will "run out" of lithium, however I do see that
it will get more expensive. How will this effect the cost of Lithium
based batteries?
Well, in the long run, I doubt it will have a significant impact. If
production of Lithium batteries increases to the point where supply/demand
increases the price of lithium, then the same supply/demand mass scale
production would logically reduce the production costs of the batteries.
Since the cost of lithium represents less than 10% of the cost of the
finished Li-Pol/Li-Ion battery, it seems to me that the cost will STILL go
down even if the price of Lithium doubles or perhaps triples.
Then of course there's the fact that long before this happens, the patents
will run out on NiMH batteries and, even if they aren't as good as Lithium
based cells, they are much cheaper to produce.
Not to mention any other storage methods that get perfected before then.
>> Also, using lithium in batteries doesn't use it up, like burning
>> petroleum. The worn out batteries are recyclable.
>>
>> And this doesn't even address all of the errors in the article.
>
> Perhaps you didn't read the author's responses to all the critiques to his
> article.
> I read them all. In the end, I think only one critic remained
> unconvinced.
>
> -Myles
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy,
I was calling around to golf courses to see if anyone had any decent used
Trojans I could buy from them and came across a guy who has a "bunch that
have been sitting here for a long time" that he seemed willing to part with
for cheap. What are the chances that any of them are any good after sitting
for who knows how long? Can batteries that have been sitting be
rehabilitated? Is it worth trying?
If there is a possibility of some rehab candidates, is there any easy way
short of charging them for several hours to pick out ones that will be more
likely to come back to life?
Thanks,
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs This url works. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:41 AM
Subject: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
> Here is what we did last Friday at the drag strip in Jupiter, Florida.
>
>
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e
ynb6zT4LMs
>
>
> Derek transported the A123 Systems Li-Ion battery pack (from the
> KillaCycle) from Denver to Florida. We installed it in Shawn
> Lawless's dragster "Orange Juice". This is about twice the HP and
> much less weight than Shawn has ever run on this machine. Thus, the
> chassis set-up was far from optimal. Even as it was going across the
> finish line at over 130 MPH, it was still smoking the tires!
>
> I'm confident that if he got the weight distribution and the tire
> pressure right, Orange Juice could be running in the 8's with the
> KillaCycle. <http://www.killacycle.com><http://www.killacycle.com>
>
> Please excuse the crappy video. :-)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randii, I think you might have to bear in mind that beign a community
list you are more than likely going to see more of the 'I have a
problem can you help' sort of messages than you see of the 'Just
charged the batteries again, no problem, haven't given them a second
look for months' types of messages.
I posted the details of a report called 'Breakdown Britain' which
highlighted some of the reasons why the most popular breakdown
service gets called out. There are literally thousands of calls for
people hwo damage their own vehicle or cannot fill a washer bottle.
In the back of my mind tonight I came to realise that it would be
very foolish to think that the poll was representative of the
population as a whole, even after 2.5 million callouts for one simple
reason, Breakdown companies attract a certain type of driver. Yes
there are corporate packages and packages where breakdown is included
with insurance, but there are still a lot of people who join because
the believe they have a problem so it isn't possible to say that
there will be a corelation between hteir findings and the actions of
the greater population.
Likewise, because people have confidence they will get support and
help on this board they ask about problems they have. While the
people who have no problems are grateful, there but for the grace of
god.
This situation is the same when you look at motoring boards for
petrol cars, and I'm a member of a couple of those. People ask
questions about faults with petrol cars. I could be convinced that
air mass sensors are going to bring all cars to grinding halt given
enough time, if I want to. But generally you take a step back and
look at the broader view.
And don't forget that you're talking about people who build their own
cars and conversion here, it's relatively specialist in that sense,
but go take a look at any kit car website and you will see that
their technical help boards are flooded with requests for help too.
I wouldn't think in terms of 'EV = battery problems" just because
some people express problems, you have to bear in mind that most
people, myself included are working to a tight budget. If I had
limitless ammounts of money I would fit Kokam Li-Poly cells with my
own regulator design on every cell and an automatic charger, and I
would do that instead of buying a Porsche.
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > > MTBF's for industrial induction motors are in the 20,000 to
> > > 50,000 hour region, and VFD's are somewhat lower (10,000 to
> > > 30,000). I would expect automotive VFD's and motors to be more
> > > stressed, so those numbers will be lower in an EV application.
> > > Still, even 6,000 hours is going to be a lot of distance... -
Dale
>
> > ...6,000hrs x 40mph avg = 240,000 mi... Say we round down to
200,000.
>
> > Given most of us don't go more than 50 mi/day in our EVs, that
tells
> > me the motor should last over 10 years of daily use... - Matt
>
> This degree of reliability doesn't seem to map well with the amount
of
> personal attention and repair that chargers and batteries seem to
> require in real-life, as reported on this mailing list.
>
> I may need to adjust my expectations -- with ICEs, there are:
> * durable items (frame, body, infrastructure, etc.)
> * service items needing infrequent repair (brakes, tires, starting
> battery, etc.)
> * regular service items (oil change, chassis lube, etc.)
> * consumable items (fuel)
>
> Is it fair to say the following of EVs?
> * durable items (frame, body, infrastructure, etc.)
> * service items needing infrequent repair (BATTERY BRUSHES,
brakes,
> tires, 12V battery, etc.)
> * regular service items (battery and chargers)
> * consumable items (battery water)
>
> Thinking out loud, the significant added efforts for EVs seem to
revolve
> around batteries and chargers... does that map with experience? The
> significant subtracted efforts relative to ICEs are fuel fill-ups,
oil
> changes, and ICE mechanical maintenance. This may seem obvious, but
I
> state it to see if I am I missing anything...
>
> If you can make batteries last, it tips the balance in favor of
EVs, for
> me. That seems to be the rub.
>
> >From my reading, it would seem that expensive battery and charger
> technologies *OR* time-intensive individual attention can help
lengthen
> battery MBTF... would anyone care to venture an MBTF estimate for a
> hobbyist first pack? Second pack?
>
> Randii
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/30/2007 1:49:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> ubj: Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
> Date:1/30/2007 1:49:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs This url works. LR.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:41 AM
> Subject: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
>
>
> >Here is what we did last Friday at the drag strip in Jupiter, Florida.
> >
> >
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e
> ynb6zT4LMs
> >
> >
> >Derek transported the A123 Systems Li-Ion battery pack (from the
> >KillaCycle) from Denver to Florida. We installed it in Shawn
> >Lawless's dragster "Orange Juice". This is about twice the HP and
> >much less weight than Shawn has ever run on this machine. Thus, the
> >chassis set-up was far from optimal. Even as it was going across the
> >finish line at over 130 MPH, it was still smoking the tires!
> >
> >I'm confident that if he got the weight distribution and the tire
> >pressure right, Orange Juice could be running in the 8's with the
> >KillaCycle. <http://www.killacycle.com><http://www.killacycle.com>
> >
> >Please excuse the crappy video. :-)
> >
> >Bill Dube'
> >
>
Bill,Are YOU sure of the stated facts on utube and this list??Also off list
please ask Shawn Lawless about the timeslips he saw and held of the
currenteliminators unoffical timeslips.
I appreciate Shawn and
crew for traveling to Florida and putting up the great times they did.Don
Gartlis has written about the merits of the small tire setup as Shawn has on
the OJ
dragster.So Shawn give that setup a few more trys.
Again my hats off to the OJ team. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Orange Juice sets new record with Li-Ion!
Just got back from the Battery Beach Burn-out in Jupiter, Florida.
We all had a great time and I want to thank Shawn Waggoner for the
outstanding organization that made the whole event a joy to attend.
If you will excuse my atrocious video skills, take a look at Shawn
Lawless's electric dragster, Orange Juice setting a new record using
880 A123 Systems M1 cells. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs
Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Jan 2007 at 14:58, Matt Kenigson wrote:
> Can batteries that have been sitting be rehabilitated?
Depends on how long, what they've suffered, and what they are.
If it's just a few weeks or even months, probably, but remember there's most
likely a reason they were abandoned.
At a year or more, things get dicey. Abandoned lead batteries, even if stored
at full charge, go flat from self discharge and/or dirt and moisture tracking
across the terminals. I've had batteries that literally read zero volts after
a
few years.
Because of lower self discharge, gel and AGM batteries tend to hold up
better when ignored, but they too will eventually go flat.
Sometimes you can actually charge even dead flat batteries with a high
voltage, current limited source. You have to force current through the nearly
pure water electrolyte. It usually takes days.
> Is it worth trying?
If you can get them to charge, you may be able to recover a small
percentage of original capacity. They'll probably never have anything close to
full capacity, though.
The longer they sit in a discharged state, the more irreversable sulfation
occurs. To make things worse, the electrolyte is essentially water at zero
SOC, so if they're exposed to freezing temperatures they're likely to freeze
and burst. Then they are worthless.
Others may have a different perspective, but personally, I wouldn't bother. I
certainly wouldn't pay anything for them, nor would I move them more than a
short distance. They're most likely worth only what you can get for scrap, or
as cores for new batteries.
Good luck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Looks like the "bad boy" behavior of the K&W is the real culprit,
having no input phase correction and drawing high peak pulses
during the voltage peak - a cheap and bad design, causing noise
(both electric as well as acoustic), overheating wiring and
disappointing efficiency are the results.
It's not a "bad" design; in fact, it's a very good design for a phase
controlled charger. It's intended to be a simple, small, lightweight,
inexpensive, and efficient charger for flooded batteries -- and it does
all this very well.
Being phase controlled does cause some limitations. The AC peak current
is high, and the power factor is low. This means a "15 amp" AC outlet
can only deliver about 10 amps to the charger. Cords and connectors will
run hotter.
The overall efficiency is actually quite high; in the 85-90% range. Good
RMS meters will confirm this, but you can also tell because the total
amount of waste heat is quite low; nothing gets hot.
There is some acoustic noise, from the small fan and a faint buss from
the inductor. There is also some electrical noise, but less than you get
with switchmode power supplies.
The charging algorithm is very simple, and only suitable for flooded
lead acids that can tolerate overcharging. But, you get what you pay
for. Many far more expensive chargers have algorithms just as simple
(and even worse!)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whats the record? inquiring minds want to know... :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 1:06 pm
Subject: Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
To: [email protected]
> Orange Juice sets new record with Li-Ion!
>
> Just got back from the Battery Beach Burn-out in Jupiter, Florida.
>
> We all had a great time and I want to thank Shawn Waggoner for the
> outstanding organization that made the whole event a joy to attend.
>
> If you will excuse my atrocious video skills, take a look at Shawn
> Lawless's electric dragster, Orange Juice setting a new record
> using
> 880 A123 Systems M1 cells. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs
> Six wheels, eight motors, a Zilla 2K, and 374 volts!
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:42:47AM -0800, xx xx wrote:
>
> Stories like this always point out one thing to me,
> regardless of the technology used there are limits to
> available resources, and if our population keeps
> increasing no technology will help us.
>
> More on topic, as I understand it lithium is not easy
> to get and lithium prices will begin to increase as
> more of it is used. Luckily lithium is not the only
> battery technology in the works, (Firefly, EESTOR,
> etc.)
>
Good news for me? I live in the small corner of the andes
they mention :) (chile)
Anyway, this is a stable, reasonable, place to do business,
so I guess if there is lithium to be harvested, it will be.
I dont thing it will turn into a new oil. We are already the worlds largest
producer of copper also.
EV raw materials? go to Chile :)
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whats the record? inquiring minds want to know... :-)
I think the record will be 11.8 or 11.9 but I didn't write anything
down at the time.
No one (that I am aware of) has run a dragster in the A3 voltage
division before, so any two runs at 374 volts should be a record.
Since the runs were widely spaced in ET, and not within 1%, the
slowest of the two would be the one they would select to be the record.
Dennis T.M. wrote:
Bill,Are YOU sure of the stated facts on utube and this list??Also off list
please ask Shawn Lawless about the timeslips he saw and held of the
currenteliminators unoffical timeslips.
"Unofficial timeslips"? I'd have to guess this would be
something like an "unofficial" twenty dollar bill. :-)
Bill D.
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--- Begin Message ---
Freezing temps affect lithium ion battery charging
Jan 19 2007 2:53PM | Permalink
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You've probably heard about the unseasonably cold weather currently
affecting normally-balmy California. If you're a Californian unused to
dealing with freezing temperatures, here's an interesting word of
caution from the excellent Battery University
<http://www.buchmann.ca/article28-page1.asp>website: It's hazardous to
charge lithium-ion batteries at temperatures below freezing.
At temperatures below 32°F – for example, when you leave your cell phone
on the battery charger in your car – the battery's anode picks up a
metallic plating. The plating is non-reversible and cumulative, so after
several sub-freezing charge cycles, the pack's safety is compromised: A
sharp impact or an aggressive charge (typical of many of today's
charging circuits) invites the infamous lithium-ion thermal runaway
<http://www.edn.com/blog/1470000147/post/60006206.html>condition. Or,
less dramatically, your cell phone battery may simply stop working.
Related entries in: Power Sources/Controllers
<http://www.edn.com/blog/1470000147-774.html> |
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--- Begin Message ---
When I blew the top off one of my batteries a couple of years ago, I put a
load on the battery, I used a headlight, until the light went out completly. I
seem to remember shorting the battery terminals but only after the lamp went
out. As the battery capacity is drained, so is it's acidity. The remains were
recycled when US delivered my new set.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: my battery fire
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One of those rough mornings.
Sorry to hear of your incident.
> So, my best guess at the Cause:
> 4 driving with 100-200 amps (must have been a spark from worn
> insulation or the wires that crossed must have produced enough
> heat).
Is it possible that you might have had a loose connection? I've seen
connections spark under load, despite being "mostly" tight.
It seems unlikely that your wires would have worn insulation anywhere
other than where they pass through a hole without protection against
chafing.
> SO QUESTION IS.
> 1. how do I remove the batteries that have an open top with
> acid still inside (but the handles are no more on one, and
> the 2 batteries are melted together on the other two).
If I were in your position, I'd siphon out as much electrolye as
possible, then lift the batteries out. If the posts are still intact,
you could use one of those battery carrying straps that hooks onto the
posts, or event a pair of cables bolted to the posts. I don't think the
usual concern with damaging the post seals is an issue here ;^>
Unless you're feeling like a workout, you will probably want to recruit
a friend to help lift the 2 melted together batteries. Be especially
careful that they don't separate from one another while lifting (if
possible, you should lift using both terminals on one while your friend
lifts using both terminals on the other so that if they do separate
neither will fall/tip and spill electrolyte all over).
Cheers,
Roger.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the RAV4 listing was canceled? I
was a bidder on it, and I thought it was being listed by a reputable group.
Odd
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt -
Another potential source of used batteries is forklift service/supply
companies. A week or so ago I picked up eight used T-105 equivalent
batteries for Project ForkenSwift which just came out of industrial
floor cleaners. They were replaced on a service schedule.
I can't say whether they're any good yet. They haven't been load
tested, but they did pass the initial test of accepting & holding a
charge (if that means anything).
But based on where they were used, and the fact that most of them had
low water (below the plate tops), they were more than likely pretty
abused and will not be long for this world.
But they'll do as a "test pack", which is all we really need at this point.
And bonus: they were free.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I blew the top off one of my batteries a couple of years ago, I put a
load on the battery, I used a headlight, until the light went out completly. I
seem to remember shorting the battery terminals but only after the lamp went
out. As the battery capacity is drained, so is it's acidity. The remains were
recycled when US delivered my new set.
Steve
Then add Sodium Bicarbonate until it quits bubbling, so it will be safer
to move.
John In Sylmar, CA
PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don
Gartlis has written about the merits of the small tire setup as
Shawn has on the OJ
dragster.So Shawn give that setup a few more
trys.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and
practice, but in practice..... :-)
The ICE drag racing folks have been at this for 50 years. A
ton of time, money, and runs down the track have been devoted to
improving traction. If there were any way to get a tiny bit more
traction, they would be doing it.
The smartest move is to find the very fastest car that has
about the same weight and HP that you do, then copy the tires and
chassis design. It is very unlikely that you are going to do any
better, especially during your first few years on the track.
Narrow track, tall wrinkle sidewalls, wide contact patch =
good traction and stability on the drag strip.
When EVs start going faster than ICEs on the drag strip,
then we will have to figure out how to get more traction than they do.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electrovaya.com/av/ZEV_video.mpg
You guys might have seen this already, but it's the first time I've seen it,
and it looks really cool! Anyone have any ideas as to the cost/availability of
this car?
- Tony
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--- Begin Message ---
Just wanted to drop a note to thank Shawn and everyone at the FLEAA for working
so hard to give us all a great event this past weekend at the BBB.
Next year we need a good videographer to take Bill's place though;)
Hope to see you all in Hagerstown in June! We hope to best our second place
drag race finish (out of two in our challenged class):-)
Regards, Mike
Mike Harvey
Harvey Coachworks and EV
(877) 841-9730
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/30/2007 3:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> j: Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
> Date:1/30/2007 3:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
>
> >Don
> >Gartlis has written about the merits of the small tire setup as
> >Shawn has on the OJ
> >dragster.So Shawn give that setup a few more
> >trys.
>
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and
> practice, but in practice..... :-)
>
> The ICE drag racing folks have been at this for 50 years. A
> ton of time, money, and runs down the track have been devoted to
> improving traction. If there were any way to get a tiny bit more
> traction, they would be doing it.
>
> The smartest move is to find the very fastest car that has
> about the same weight and HP that you do, then copy the tires and
> chassis design. It is very unlikely that you are going to do any
> better, especially during your first few years on the track.
>
> Narrow track, tall wrinkle sidewalls, wide contact patch =
> good traction and stability on the drag strip.
>
> When EVs start going faster than ICEs on the drag strip,
> then we will have to figure out how to get more traction than they do.
>
> Bill Dube
*********** A Quote fron Don Gartlis as written in the summit log
book.....Less tire means more power,"In sportsman racing where horsepower is
limited,you
can make more use of your avaible horsepower by pairing small diameter tires
with a large gear ratio.It takes more power to spin a larger tire.Therefore,you
can save horsepower with the smaller tires and apply it to a larger gear in
the differential to achive a performance boost"
This is
a true statement as I am now going 6mph faster with a smaller tire on the CE
dragster for the same power out of the batteries.Bracket racing 11.90 at
121mph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 1/30/2007 1:49:36 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Re: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
> Date:1/30/2007 1:49:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs This url works. LR.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:41 AM
> Subject: 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
>
>
> >Here is what we did last Friday at the drag strip in Jupiter, Florida.
> >
> >
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e
> ynb6zT4LMs
> >
> >
> >Derek transported the A123 Systems Li-Ion battery pack (from the
> >KillaCycle) from Denver to Florida. We installed it in Shawn
> >Lawless's dragster "Orange Juice". This is about twice the HP and
> >much less weight than Shawn has ever run on this machine. Thus, the
> >chassis set-up was far from optimal. Even as it was going across the
> >finish line at over 130 MPH, it was still smoking the tires!
> >**********Not 130mph Bill,You were there it was 120mph Bill,set the record
> strait!!! Dennis Berube
> >I'm confident that if he got the weight distribution and the tire
> >pressure right, Orange Juice could be running in the 8's with the
> >KillaCycle. <http://www.killacycle.com><http://www.killacycle.com>
> >
> >Please excuse the crappy video. :-)
> >
> >Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
