EV Digest 6363
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Serious gassing when charging
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AGM voltage, was push and go vs regen
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
by "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Issues with K&W charge
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: MBTF for EV components? (was RE: Engine out)
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen - so lved) ..
part 3
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Horse hoof sounds for an EV?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) my battery fire
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Issues with K&W charger
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Issues with K&W charger
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Should I say 'Peak Lithium' ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Watching a master time a motor.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: my battery fire
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: my battery fire
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) 6 wheels, 8 motors, Zilla 2K, and 880 A123 Cells = 10.9
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roger. I'm learning so much!
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Jan 30, 2007, at 1:29 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
Your charger is broken.
While I agree fully with Cor's assessment above, I cannot let the
following pass without comment:
Floodeds can be hit with a higher voltage than sealed batteries,
but in general the charger should stay below 13.7V for the bulk
charging (no gassing) and only during the end of the charge cycle
the voltage can climb to somewhere around 15V per battery, while
the current is tapering down to avoid excessive over-charge.
This is incorrect. 13.6-13.8V is a *float* charge level for 12V lead
acid batteries, and is compeletely unsuitable as a charging voltage
for
batteries that are cycled daily as there will not be enough hours
between use for the batteries to reach a full state of charge.
Even in
float applications, gel and AGM charge recommendations are for higher
voltages than this. For cyclic applications such as our EVs, battery
manufacturers pretty much always recommend a charge voltage of
14.4-14.8V per 12V battery as appropriate, even for sealed AGMs and
gel
types. Flooded batteries can and will harmlessly exceed 2.5V/cell
(15V
per 12V battery) during the finish portion of charge.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. A big thanks to everyone who built, runs & contributes to the
Album. Invaluable resource.
As an EV noob, I have spent nearly as much time browsing through it as I
have through the EVDL Yahoo archive.
(I haven't submitted a page for the ForkenSwift yet - AKA Joe Sixpack
Metro. I know there's a category for "under construction", but I'm
waiting until it moves under electrical power before I deem it
Album-worthy.)
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe that Bob Batson at http://www.ev-america.com/ sells them.
----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph H. Strubhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:58:46 PM
Subject: Re: Debating purchasing an EV
Isn't there someone on this list that sells a lift kit for small pickup
beds? I am looking for such a kit for a conversion.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Debating purchasing an EV
> Matt,
>
> Because the bed is only sheet metal, you need 2 people to lift it
> off, so you can install hinges at the end of your frame rails,
> bolting to a profile at the bottom of the bed.
> After that you can tilt the bed backwards single-handedly because
> you lift only half the weight.
> Your choice if you want an automatic lift mechanism, for example
> a scissor-type lifter, or use gas-filled springs to help keep the
> bed up once you lifted it, or rely on your own force and only use
> some wooden beams to prop the bed up. (Even with gas lift you need
> to secure the bed against falling down on a wind gust)
>
> Pay attention to the wiring of the tail lights.
> Often the return (ground) is the bed, so after installing the
> hinges, the lights don't work well and you need a short ground
> wire between bed and a frame rail.
>
> Reason almost everyone installs a bed that can lift is the
> improved access to the battery box underneath.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Debating purchasing an EV
>
>
> If this is the truck, I'd say it's a pretty good deal. You'll want to
> replace the controller and the charger in the long term (they're similar
to
> what I have now and I'm itchin' to upgrade) but they'll do well in
> flat-country Florida. Also, the fact it has a lift-up bed with gas
springs
> is very nice. I wish I had that on my truck and I'm not quite sure how to
> even get started on getting that done. I doubt it's something I could do.
> Having an emeter is nice, too.
>
> If you have a short and predictable commute, I'd even recommend finding
some
> golf courses and golf cart dealers in your area and seeing if you couldn't
> put together a set of 20 used 6V batteries in decent shape so the first
pack
> you kill is inexpensive. Also, once you get a new pack after killing the
> first one, you'll get the psychological boost of a peppier vehicle to make
> up for the expense. :)
>
> All that being said, I'm with Damon about looking up Steve Clunn and other
> EVers in Florida. You have a good crop over there. Hey, maybe you'd even
> be interested in waiting for the Freedom EV...
>
> Matt
>
> On 1/28/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like you are talking about this truck on the EVAlbum.
> >
> >
>
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=adver
> tisement&rollid=1285
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/653 - Release Date: 1/26/2007
11:11 AM
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Darin, and All
At 05:06 PM 29/01/07 -0500, Darin wrote:
(I haven't submitted a page for the ForkenSwift yet - AKA Joe Sixpack
Metro. I know there's a category for "under construction", but I'm
waiting until it moves under electrical power before I deem it Album-worthy.)
<applause>
IMHO there are too many ICE vehicles put in the album that are someones'
ambition to be an EV, but may never get even half-way there... my Daihatsu
truck hasn't been an ICE vehicle for years (several before I got it as its'
engine had been removed) but it is still far from an EV, but now closer to
an EV than to an ICE - maybe it is time for me to put it in as "under
construction"... but like you, I feel that until it has moved under EV
power it is probably a little fraudulent to call it an EV.
(hope this hasn't stepped on too many toes)
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Death to All Spammers wrote:
Chris,
I think you mean flooded NiCds?
AGMs are usually around 2V per cell, around 2.35V gassing will start.
Whoops. I keep forgetting the kinds of batteries I am working with.
Basically I have programmed the Prizm to not go above 350v on regen to
keep from cooking the batteries. That's 14 volts per 12v battery.
Main reason is I don't want to barbecue the zener regs on each battery.
I tend not to worry about the NiCDs quite as much.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the BYU EV1 race at the Power of DC in 05 and they towed it to and
from the strip, they did very well and even destroyed their custom transaxle
but it only had enough power for the 1/4 mile.
On 1/29/07, Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
There's an article entitled "UltraCapacitor Power for a Drag Racecar" in
the white papers on Maxwell's site
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/technical-support/white_papers.aspthat
describes BYU converting the battery pack from an EV1 to uCaps for drag
racing. You have to register to read it; I think it's also available on
globalspec.com
If memory serves they used an A.C. controller taking energy from the uCaps
directly i.e. w/o using a DC/DC converter to maintain constant input
voltage.
----- Original Message ----
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:33:44 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
A controller would need to be able to handle a wide voltage and current
range. To use some 90% of the cap's energy the voltage will vary by a
factor of 3.
Right now, there is no capacitor in existance which can power an EV for
any useful distance. Someone asked about the big stereo caps and I
recall calculating that enough to fill the vehicle gets you just about
to the end of the block. Available, but very expensive, ultracaps could
get you a decent start off the line but still no range to speak of.
Danny
Bruce wrote:
>Does anyone have any ideas on what kind of controller would work well for
a
>small vehicle powered by (instead of batteries), a very large bank of
>capacitors?
>
>I understand that SCR based controllers are hard on batteries because of
>their slow switching speed and large current spikes. Perhaps this would
not
>be a problem with capacitor power? Might an SCR based controller be
>simpler, cheaper and more rugged than a more modern MOSFET controller?
>
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've come to learn about these characteristics by trials and (mostly)
errors. I've been boiling the tar out of my batteries for months, it
seems. I keep consoling myself on my learning curve by reminding myself
that the pack was pretty much done for when I bought the truck...
I'm having to be even more vigilant about the charging these days because I
melted one post and bypassed that battery, so I'm running on 19 T-125s now.
I also must have killed a cell in my #11 battery this past weekend because
it's now consistently reading in the 4s. I can't afford to replace the pack
right now so I talked to the local Trojan shop. They've got a couple of
good used ones I'll go get whenever I can finally get over there. They're
only open during business hours and it's a good 25 miles from where I work.
Will it harm the other batteries to run with that 4-volt battery in the
pack? Should I bypass it, too, until I get the two replacement used batts?
While I'm at it, does anyone in the Southeast have any interest in going in
on a pallet of new batteries sometime in the next few months? I'm willing
to stick to floodies or move to a new type. Seems to me the T-125s are the
best bang for the buck for general use, but I wouldn't be against going to
12V AGM or Gels. I was planning on doing that someday when I replaced the
controller and charger, anyway.
Matt
On 1/29/07, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Matt,
I hope others that have BC-20 experience will also POST on this
topic.
I have an interest in EV charging. I have tried and/or used many
different chargers. I have used a BC-20 with and without a boost
transformer. And I have used a BC-20 at higher charging currents.
IMHO: a BC-20 is not a smart charger. It is one step better than a
light-dimmer. A huge current spike is drawn by this charger: it
cooks plugs, cords, breakers and outlets. It does not have a
Multi-stage charging algorithm. Because you have to watch it
carefully to keep it from over or under charging your pack, I
consider it a manual charger.
I do not recommend that anyone purchase this charger. It can be
used safely if set correctly, but I would mainly use it as a backup
charger if my main smart charger was down/being repaired/replaced.
As was POSTed on the EV List many moons ago by a company rep., the
current meter on the BC-20 does not display RMS. It displays what
they call TMS which is not the same).
I strongly recommend that you have an accurate clamp on RMS AC
current meter, and a DC voltmeter (a digital one is recommended).
The clamp on amp meter will tell you how much AC current you are
drawing, and the voltmeter will help you set the BC-20's correct
taper voltage.
If the BC-20 charger is plugged into a 5-20 (110 VAC 20 amp)
circuit, the best setting I have found using the built in meter is
just under the 7amp reading (using a clamp on AC current meter is
recommended).
At this setting it is under the average AC current that will let
you go to sleep without tripping the source's AC breaker (your
charger, meter, and breaker may vary).
When I plugged the BC-20 charger into a 110VAC 30amp outlet, the
best setting I have found using the built in meter is just under
the 10amp reading.
Plugging into a 110 VAC 40 amp source, I changed my output wiring
to 10 gauge and was able to reach a 15 amp reading on the charger's
built in meter. But the internal wiring got hot pretty fast. I
could not charge at that current for more than a few minutes
without being concerned about overheating the internal wiring. The
boost transformer got overheated too.
DOing the above, I was able to show that the BC-20 charger can put
out just under 20 DC amps without tripping the built in (white)
breaker. But I do not recommend that a BC-20 be used at that higher
output current even though the charger says it is rated for it.
Charging at a lower output current off a 110 VAC 30 AC amp outlet
(or less) should be fine.
Be sure to not over heat the boost transformer. The one sold for
use with the BC-20 is usually not designed for a 20 amp charge
current.
The BC-20 normally does make a buzzing noise. The more current it
puts out the louder the buzz. If you think it is making too loud
buzzing noise, I would be concerned.
Do plan to do a manual overcharge after 10 charging cycles. The
BC-20 is not smart enough to do the finishing charge stage (a
slight over charge). When doing the slight over charge, set the
taper charge voltage higher than normal and the output current down
to about 4 amps for about 3 hours. The pack's cells should be
lightly bubbling (occational small bubbles).
Afterward you need to re-set the BC-20 taper voltage back to its
normal setting. Read http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
Using their specifications, at 80F your 120VDC pack should be set
to (60cells * 2.583V=) ~155 VDC.
Good Luck.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, to throw out some figures, 6,000hrs x 40mph avg = 240,000 mi.. Say we
round down to 200,000. Given most of us don't go more than 50 mi/day in our
EVs, that tells me the motor should last over 10 years of daily use or more
depending on usage.
Matt
On 1/29/07, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
MTBF's for industrial induction motors are in the
20,000 to 50,000 hour region, and VFD's are somewhat
lower (10,000 to 30,000). I would expect automotive
VFD's and motors to be more stressed, so those numbers
will be lower in an EV application. Still, even 6,000
hours is going to be a lot of distance - most ICE's
are well worn out by then.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/30/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Peekay,
I am giving an overview why PnG does not work for EVs in
another post, more info in the archives as well.
Actually, there's plenty of info in a very long thread from May last year,
where Peekay asked the same question ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This basically looks like a Smart, but I haven't heard
of it on this list. Some of the reader comments were
amusing.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/29/girasole-electric-car-packs-horse-hoof-warnings/#comments
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if you can use these on a 1987 Nissan Pickup? Are the
hinges specific to any particular make and model, or are they pretty
generic?
Matt
On 1/30/07, Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I believe that Bob Batson at http://www.ev-america.com/ sells them.
----- Original Message ----
From: Joseph H. Strubhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:58:46 PM
Subject: Re: Debating purchasing an EV
Isn't there someone on this list that sells a lift kit for small pickup
beds? I am looking for such a kit for a conversion.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Debating purchasing an EV
> Matt,
>
> Because the bed is only sheet metal, you need 2 people to lift it
> off, so you can install hinges at the end of your frame rails,
> bolting to a profile at the bottom of the bed.
> After that you can tilt the bed backwards single-handedly because
> you lift only half the weight.
> Your choice if you want an automatic lift mechanism, for example
> a scissor-type lifter, or use gas-filled springs to help keep the
> bed up once you lifted it, or rely on your own force and only use
> some wooden beams to prop the bed up. (Even with gas lift you need
> to secure the bed against falling down on a wind gust)
>
> Pay attention to the wiring of the tail lights.
> Often the return (ground) is the bed, so after installing the
> hinges, the lights don't work well and you need a short ground
> wire between bed and a frame rail.
>
> Reason almost everyone installs a bed that can lift is the
> improved access to the battery box underneath.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:25 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Debating purchasing an EV
>
>
> If this is the truck, I'd say it's a pretty good deal. You'll want to
> replace the controller and the charger in the long term (they're similar
to
> what I have now and I'm itchin' to upgrade) but they'll do well in
> flat-country Florida. Also, the fact it has a lift-up bed with gas
springs
> is very nice. I wish I had that on my truck and I'm not quite sure how
to
> even get started on getting that done. I doubt it's something I could
do.
> Having an emeter is nice, too.
>
> If you have a short and predictable commute, I'd even recommend finding
some
> golf courses and golf cart dealers in your area and seeing if you
couldn't
> put together a set of 20 used 6V batteries in decent shape so the first
pack
> you kill is inexpensive. Also, once you get a new pack after killing
the
> first one, you'll get the psychological boost of a peppier vehicle to
make
> up for the expense. :)
>
> All that being said, I'm with Damon about looking up Steve Clunn and
other
> EVers in Florida. You have a good crop over there. Hey, maybe you'd
even
> be interested in waiting for the Freedom EV...
>
> Matt
>
> On 1/28/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > It sounds like you are talking about this truck on the EVAlbum.
> >
> >
>
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=adver
> tisement&rollid=1285
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/653 - Release Date:
1/26/2007
11:11 AM
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and
hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of those rough mornings.
Had 3 batteries (lead acid T125) catch on fire this morning. (I should
clarify. I think Hydrogen gas coming from the batteries was on fire.)
So, luckily the Wawa (24 hour convenience store let me use their fire
extinguisher). fire was out before fire trucks came.
the damage is minimal to the the whole vehicle. 3 batteries are destoryed
and 3 sets of cable. (oh and the fiberglass battery box burnt. max $400
plus my labor
So, my best guess at the Cause:
1 Plenty of H2 gas in the battery box after overnight recharge
2 unvented battery box in the S10 bed
3 bed covered with a tarp
4 driving with 100-200 amps (must have been a spark from worn insulation or
the wires that crossed must have produced enough heat).
5 whether the heat caused the H2 to burn that made a continuous fire, or
the heat simply got the plastics burning. the fire was not that hot.
I was stupid enough to disconnect the batteries surrounding the burning
ones amidst the cool blue flame (1st indicator it was H2 burning) so source
of heat was gone
then ran to wawa for fire extinguisher ran back and the fire went right out
at the first release of extinguisher.
PHEWWWW - Sorry Fire men; no fun this morning. They got a good look at
the vehicle and asked questions.
Got my free AAA tow home.
This is the 2nd time I've gotten towed (1st time was for motor brushes
shot) and the driver didn't notice the vehicle was electric.
I don't know what it is, but the entire bed was open, and batteries in
clear sight.
I didn't say a thing to the driver, and he didn't take a single look.
Amazing.
Car home, disconnected, and lots of baking soda dumped everywhere.
SO QUESTION IS.
1. how do I remove the batteries that have an open top with acid still
inside (but the handles are no more on one, and the 2 batteries are melted
together on the other two).
2. Are one of you with such experience willing to let me Phone Call you for
advice when items like this occur. I'll email you my phone number if so or
if you'll email me yours please.
Lesson Learned - 1 battery 2/0 cables are not in sheaths. That is the most
likely culprit.
2 have extinguisher and baking soda in truck
3 vent while charging
4 as 4 months ago when I simply melted terminals - monthly monthly MONTHLY
terminal & cable inspection!!!
Thanks so much,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Jan 2007 at 17:59, Bob Bath wrote:
> I can fax you a [BC-20] manual if you don't already have one
I wasn't going to announce this yet for a while, but you can download this
manual from the nascent EVDL library :
http://www.evdl.org/lib/
On that page I'm gradually amassing a collection of manuals and data for
old, obsolete, and unsupported (but still serviceable ;-) EV components.
There you'll find Lee Hart's invaluable basic lead acid charging
instructions (and some of his funny stuff too ;-).
I have other information and manuals for various batteries and a few
chargers (controllers and inverters soon). For example, you'll find a
manual for the very obscure and very old (early '90s) Crusing Equipment Amp-
Hour meter, forerunner of the E-meter and a Cybortronics charger (2 pages!).
I'm working on manuals for early Lester chargers and ancient PMC
controllers.
There's even a small section on general information and EV history, which I
plan to keep small by being rather circumspect about what I post there, and
a "just for fun" section currently populated by the best of Lee Hart's
Dickensian and filk creations - this also will stay fairly small.
If you have something to donate, you're welcome to contact me by private
email (don't reply on list please). My private address changes from time to
time, but you can always find either the address or a contact method at the
bottom of the evdl help page -
http://www.evdl.org/help/
When submitting please take note of these guidelines :
1. Be mindful of copyright. Many old documents have the status of
"abandonware," long since forgotten by the organizations or companies which
originally published them. But it's usually unwise to attract the attention
of large corporations and their attorneys.
2. Please make the format as turnkey as possible since I don't have a lot of
time to spend on this.
PDF is what I prefer, and use for the majority of what I'm posting, because
of its crossplatform nature. I can convert jpeg and other graphic scans to
pdf, but it's a bit of a pain and I'd rather you did it for me. ;-)
If you use Adobe Acrobat, please use older versions (5 or earlier) for the
widest compatibility.
Cutewriter ( http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp ) will turn
anything you can print (in one round) into pdf, and it's genuine freeware
for personal use. It uses Ghostscript.
HTML is OK as long as you provide all of the images required.
3. I prefer not to post proprietary formats such as Microsoft Word and Excel
documents. If you want to make such proprietary material available to EV
list members, I'll be glad to host it for downloading, but I may not place a
link to it on the library page(s).
4. As page editor I reserve the right to the final decision on what to post.
If I don't think an item submitted will have sufficient interest for the EV
hobbyist community, or just plain isn't appropriate for one reason or
another, I may thank you, but not actually post it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Read this story yesterday, on Bill Moor's EVWorld. He hinted to it last
week. ( http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=1180 )
I guess till this guy, William Tahil, Director of Research for Meridian
International Research started to look at the world supply of lithium,
no one gave it a thought..
It is a little scary, and disheartening, to think that our "holy grail"
of battery technology is already talked about as if it only has a 40
year run...
Would like some one to prove this guy wrong... Before all the Nay
-Sayers get a hold of the story and start to RUN with it. Like
"Electric Car HOPES Dead on Arrival" or "Running out of Future
Batteries before they START" and other such nonsense.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Great! This could be another valuable resource of ideas and
support docs.
BTW, congrats on the promotion from assistant, I checked the
posts and noticed that two weeks ago you became the administrator
according your sig.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 9:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Issues with K&W charger
On 29 Jan 2007 at 17:59, Bob Bath wrote:
> I can fax you a [BC-20] manual if you don't already have one
I wasn't going to announce this yet for a while, but you can download this
manual from the nascent EVDL library :
http://www.evdl.org/lib/
On that page I'm gradually amassing a collection of manuals and data for
old, obsolete, and unsupported (but still serviceable ;-) EV components.
There you'll find Lee Hart's invaluable basic lead acid charging
instructions (and some of his funny stuff too ;-).
I have other information and manuals for various batteries and a few
chargers (controllers and inverters soon). For example, you'll find a
manual for the very obscure and very old (early '90s) Crusing Equipment Amp-
Hour meter, forerunner of the E-meter and a Cybortronics charger (2 pages!).
I'm working on manuals for early Lester chargers and ancient PMC
controllers.
There's even a small section on general information and EV history, which I
plan to keep small by being rather circumspect about what I post there, and
a "just for fun" section currently populated by the best of Lee Hart's
Dickensian and filk creations - this also will stay fairly small.
If you have something to donate, you're welcome to contact me by private
email (don't reply on list please). My private address changes from time to
time, but you can always find either the address or a contact method at the
bottom of the evdl help page -
http://www.evdl.org/help/
When submitting please take note of these guidelines :
1. Be mindful of copyright. Many old documents have the status of
"abandonware," long since forgotten by the organizations or companies which
originally published them. But it's usually unwise to attract the attention
of large corporations and their attorneys.
2. Please make the format as turnkey as possible since I don't have a lot of
time to spend on this.
PDF is what I prefer, and use for the majority of what I'm posting, because
of its crossplatform nature. I can convert jpeg and other graphic scans to
pdf, but it's a bit of a pain and I'd rather you did it for me. ;-)
If you use Adobe Acrobat, please use older versions (5 or earlier) for the
widest compatibility.
Cutewriter ( http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp ) will turn
anything you can print (in one round) into pdf, and it's genuine freeware
for personal use. It uses Ghostscript.
HTML is OK as long as you provide all of the images required.
3. I prefer not to post proprietary formats such as Microsoft Word and Excel
documents. If you want to make such proprietary material available to EV
list members, I'll be glad to host it for downloading, but I may not place a
link to it on the library page(s).
4. As page editor I reserve the right to the final decision on what to post.
If I don't think an item submitted will have sufficient interest for the EV
hobbyist community, or just plain isn't appropriate for one reason or
another, I may thank you, but not actually post it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, his conclusions are highly questionable at best. Even if we do run
out of lithium carbonate, that is only one form of lithium which is one of
the most common elements on the planet.
You don't have to use lithium carbonate, you can use one of the other
readily available lithium compounds.
Also, using lithium in batteries doesn't use it up, like burning
petroleum. The worn out batteries are recyclable.
And this doesn't even address all of the errors in the article.
> Read this story yesterday, on Bill Moor's EVWorld. He hinted to it last
> week. ( http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=1180 )
>
> I guess till this guy, William Tahil, Director of Research for Meridian
> International Research started to look at the world supply of lithium,
> no one gave it a thought..
>
> It is a little scary, and disheartening, to think that our "holy grail"
> of battery technology is already talked about as if it only has a 40
> year run...
>
> Would like some one to prove this guy wrong... Before all the Nay
> -Sayers get a hold of the story and start to RUN with it. Like
> "Electric Car HOPES Dead on Arrival" or "Running out of Future
> Batteries before they START" and other such nonsense.
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stories like this always point out one thing to me,
regardless of the technology used there are limits to
available resources, and if our population keeps
increasing no technology will help us.
More on topic, as I understand it lithium is not easy
to get and lithium prices will begin to increase as
more of it is used. Luckily lithium is not the only
battery technology in the works, (Firefly, EESTOR,
etc.)
John
--- Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Read this story yesterday, on Bill Moor's EVWorld.
> He hinted to it last
> week. (
>
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=1180
> )
>
> I guess till this guy, William Tahil, Director of
> Research for Meridian
> International Research started to look at the world
> supply of lithium,
> no one gave it a thought..
>
> It is a little scary, and disheartening, to think
> that our "holy grail"
> of battery technology is already talked about as if
> it only has a 40
> year run...
>
> Would like some one to prove this guy wrong...
> Before all the Nay
> -Sayers get a hold of the story and start to RUN
> with it. Like
> "Electric Car HOPES Dead on Arrival" or "Running
> out of Future
> Batteries before they START" and other such
> nonsense.
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually others have given it some thought, the price of lithium keeps
going up because of its relatively few sources, and its value for
portable electronic batteries. Those who predict its price will come
down by a factor of 10 and its demand go up by a factor of 10,000 for
EVs are not seeing reality.
What makes EVs great is that electricity can be created by many sources
and stored in many ways. They are not beholden to any particular
technology, the best most flexible and nimble vehicle.
Jack
Steven Lough wrote:
Read this story yesterday, on Bill Moor's EVWorld. He hinted to it last
week. ( http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=1180 )
I guess till this guy, William Tahil, Director of Research for Meridian
International Research started to look at the world supply of lithium,
no one gave it a thought..
It is a little scary, and disheartening, to think that our "holy grail"
of battery technology is already talked about as if it only has a 40
year run...
Would like some one to prove this guy wrong... Before all the Nay
-Sayers get a hold of the story and start to RUN with it. Like
"Electric Car HOPES Dead on Arrival" or "Running out of Future
Batteries before they START" and other such nonsense.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Craig (deafscooter) is on his way to Asia for 6 months. I was at his house
and he sold me a motor and timed it for reverse running. He took out a
multimeter and used the amp function & a charger to time it. He watched
untill the amps were as low as possible and made a mark. The motor seemed
to run smooth at this point. I'll be putting it in an Izip. It is an 800
watt rad2go motor running at 36vdc. Lawrence Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One of those rough mornings.
Sorry to hear of your incident.
> So, my best guess at the Cause:
> 4 driving with 100-200 amps (must have been a spark from worn
> insulation or the wires that crossed must have produced enough
> heat).
Is it possible that you might have had a loose connection? I've seen
connections spark under load, despite being "mostly" tight.
It seems unlikely that your wires would have worn insulation anywhere
other than where they pass through a hole without protection against
chafing.
> SO QUESTION IS.
> 1. how do I remove the batteries that have an open top with
> acid still inside (but the handles are no more on one, and
> the 2 batteries are melted together on the other two).
If I were in your position, I'd siphon out as much electrolye as
possible, then lift the batteries out. If the posts are still intact,
you could use one of those battery carrying straps that hooks onto the
posts, or event a pair of cables bolted to the posts. I don't think the
usual concern with damaging the post seals is an issue here ;^>
Unless you're feeling like a workout, you will probably want to recruit
a friend to help lift the 2 melted together batteries. Be especially
careful that they don't separate from one another while lifting (if
possible, you should lift using both terminals on one while your friend
lifts using both terminals on the other so that if they do separate
neither will fall/tip and spill electrolyte all over).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
>
> So, my best guess at the Cause:
> 1 Plenty of H2 gas in the battery box after overnight recharge
> 2 unvented battery box in the S10 bed
> 3 bed covered with a tarp
> 4 driving with 100-200 amps (must have been a spark from worn insulation
> or
> the wires that crossed must have produced enough heat).
> 5 whether the heat caused the H2 to burn that made a continuous fire, or
> the heat simply got the plastics burning. the fire was not that hot.
Is it possible that you let the water level get below the top of the plates??
Add "check water level" to your list of monthly's.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
Elec-Trak I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is what we did last Friday at the drag strip in Jupiter, Florida.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eynb6zT4LMs
Derek transported the A123 Systems Li-Ion battery pack (from the
KillaCycle) from Denver to Florida. We installed it in Shawn
Lawless's dragster "Orange Juice". This is about twice the HP and
much less weight than Shawn has ever run on this machine. Thus, the
chassis set-up was far from optimal. Even as it was going across the
finish line at over 130 MPH, it was still smoking the tires!
I'm confident that if he got the weight distribution and the tire
pressure right, Orange Juice could be running in the 8's with the
KillaCycle. <http://www.killacycle.com><http://www.killacycle.com>
Please excuse the crappy video. :-)
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
