EV Digest 6376
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(Newton EVs to replace Marks & Spencer's diesel fleet)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(Maybe we should have an electric car race)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Why should we pay to recharge his car?)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(Li-ion Tech; pluginpartners.org video)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE Trojan batt prices
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(ZENN LSV @ Las Vegas auto conference)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Wooden battery spacers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: RE Trojan batt prices
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New body wrap
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Honda CRX conversion on ebay
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Wooden battery spacers
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV digest 6372
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) New Body Wrap
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Series Hybrid ( was RE: EV digest 6372)
by Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Li-ion Tech; pluginpartners.org video)
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Newton EVs to replace Marks & Spencer's diesel fleet)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.sharecast.com/cgi-bin/sharecast/story.cgi?story_id=1060925
Tanfield wins Marks order Fri 02 Feb 2007
LONDON (SHARECAST) - Electric-powered vehicle maker Tanfield
Group announced today that it has signed a significant supply
agreement with Marks & Spencer.
Tanfield said its trading division, Smith Electric Vehicles, will
sell Newton zero emission vehicles to Marks & Spencer with a view
to replacing Marks' urban diesel fleet where possible.
We are delighted to be one of the first major companies in the UK
to explore the opportunities zero emission vehicles bring. The
Newton electric vehicle is not only environmentally friendly but
cost-effective, said Marks supply chain head Ian Mumby.
The news follows the statement by Marks & Spencer recently that
it would become carbon neutral within five years.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Maybe we should have an electric car race)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ndsuspectrum.com/opinion/Spring07/2_2_07_opinion_car.html
The quest for the electric car
By Erich Richter Columnist
I never thought I would say this, but recently I concluded that I
want an electric car.
This is a bit of a self-revelation for me. Simply put, I love
gasoline engines.
Winter saddens me because a piece of my soul is reduced along
with my driving speed as I attempt to avoid winter accidents. I
took a year off from NDSU to attend auto-tech school and worse
yet, I love the smell of gasoline.
My wife would tell you I try daily to iron out a budget that
would allow me to buy some LS1 Firebird I have found listed on
Carsoup. Sadly, the numbers never turn out in my favor.
However, recently I came across some numbers that I found
appealing.
I heard about an electric car being made by a company called
Tesla Motors. They claim their car is capable of a four second 0
to 60, something any car enthusiast salivates over.
Tesla Motors is an American company who is trying to turn a page
in history concerning electric vehicles.
The estimates I found on the cost of their Roadster were in the
range of $100,000. But hey, its a pretty sweet ride. The car
certainly looks like 100 grand.
In case youre wondering, the only notable electric car in
automotive history was the EV1 from General Motors.
GM didnt go down as the tree huggers superhero as eventually
they killed the project, and crushed all the models that didnt
end up in a museum somewhere.
Americans didnt find EV1 appealing for many reasons, but mainly
its range was only 150 miles. Maybe they crushed them because
they were such an embarrassment to car-kind.
If you want to own an electric car someday, hope that General
Motors recently unveiled flex-electric Chevrolet Volt will be
firstly affordable, and secondly, produced.
It is only a concept as of now, but the Volt runs for 40 miles on
battery power. Then the reserve gasoline engine kicks in and
recharges the car during transportation, allowing for up to a 640
mile range between the two power sources.
Thats pretty neat and all, but there are several quirks that car
manufacturers need to patch up before Americans are going to want
to buy electric cars. First, and most important to me, Americans
dont want to take out mortgages for a car that will get smoked
by a Geo Metro or a 1988 4 cylinder Mustang.
Secondly, this flex-fuel addiction needs to be dropped. I detest
sounding like a liberal conspiracy theorist, but why in the world
dont they try to get past gasoline, and even ethanol?
Sometimes I wonder what will push us to the crazy idea of
electric vehicles. Maybe we should have an electric car race.
Lets have our politicians ramble about how our children are dumb
comparatively and that if we dont build the most electric cars,
we will be overcome by Communism.
I obviously dont know much about politics, but I know enough
about cars to wonder why someone hasnt made a good electric
one.
Someone, please make an electric car that can self-sustain its
own charge. Strap 10 alternators to an electric motor if you have
to! Lets start taking this vision seriously.
I want a big 4-door Cadillac Seville that can go 130 mph on
electricity. You should want that too. But for now, the auto
enthusiast inside me will have to continue to dream on.
Erich is a senior studying art.
Columnists' opinions do not necessarily reflect the views of The
Spectrum
Copyright © 1998-2005 The Spectrum. All rights reserved. Contact
Information: For questions/comments [...] contact Editor in Chief
Danielle Troske at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Why should we pay to recharge his car?)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.timesheraldonline.com/ci_5143109
Who's paying for this? By Times-Herald staff
Article Launched: 02/02/2007 07:17:12 AM PST
I am certain that electric cars for local commuting and as a
grocery getter are in our future ("Xebra rolls into electric car
market," Times-Herald, Jan. 31), but their very limited range and
speed capabilities make them useful for only those purposes. We
can argue about their supposed lack of pollution since they emit
nothing, but the power plant that makes the electricity they run
on are major polluters.
My real problem is with Mr. Dohm trying to get the city to put in
an electrical connection at the Ferry Building parking lot. Why
should we pay to recharge his car? If he wants to drive around on
errands after work he should recharge his car before he leaves
for work in the morning. If the city is going to put in a
recharging outlet for his car, then I demand free gas and diesel
pumps for the rest of us.
The city is always crying that we are going broke, well; let's
not add someone's commute costs to our bills. Let Mr. Dohm pay
for his commute just like all the other good folks.
Burgess Schnitzius, Vallejo
===
http://www.whitepages.com/10001/log_feature/pers_search_w_email/search/FindPerson?firstname_begins_with=1&firstname=Burgess+&name=Schnitzius&city_zip=Vallejo%2C+ca
http://www.timesheraldonline.com/contactus
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Li-ion Tech; pluginpartners.org video)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070131005314&newsLang=en
January 31, 2007 08:00 AM Eastern Time
Lithium Technology Corporation Drives Ahead with Battery
Applications for Advanced Automotives
PLYMOUTH MEETING, Pa.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Advances in lithium-ion
battery technology over the past few years, and a shift in the
mindset of auto manufacturers, have made hybrid-electric vehicles
(HEVs), plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles (PHEVs) and electric
vehicles (EVs) a viable alternative to traditional fuel-powered
automotives for the near future, according to officials at
Lithium Technology Corporation, a global provider of large
lithium-ion rechargeable power solutions. LTC has focused solely
on the development and production of large format lithium-ion
batteries for more than twenty years and offers solutions today
to drive the future.
There has been a change of mindset within the car industry over
the past two years triggered by the success the Japanese have had
with the HEV, comments Dr. Klaus Brandt, executive vice
president of LTC and managing director of LTC subsidiary GAIA
Akkumulatorenwerke (GAIA). Large lithium-ion solutions have
proven to be a technical reality for passenger cars and have
achieved respectable performance.
LTC has powered a project in conjunction with Innosys Engineering
in which a four passenger Daihatsu Cuore was converted into an
electric car using the lithium-ion batteries and a three-phase
asynchronous electric motor. The battery, built with cells
manufactured by LTC subsidiary GAIA, has a capacity of 25 kWh and
an approximate highway range of 180-200km (100-125 miles) at
90-100km/hr (56-60 mph). These results are similar to the
expected performance of the recently announced Volt slated to be
made available by General Motors in 2010.
The technology is here today. LTC has it, and weve demonstrated
it, says Dr. Brandt. Price is the biggest factor holding back
the production of these more environmentally friendly, fuel
efficient vehicles. By committing to work together, the auto
manufactures and battery companies can bring the cost down and
make cars like the Volt an affordable reality for the consumer.
LTCs technology was recently highlighted in a video produced by
Plug-In Partners, a national grass-roots initiative to
demonstrate to automakers that a market for flexible-fuel PHEVs
exists today. The full video discussing the economic and
environmental benefits of PHEVs can be viewed on the Plug-In
Partners website at
[Video
http://pluginpartners.org/includes/images/PHEV%20Video%2010%20Best.wmv
]
The piece featured a project in which LTC provided cells to the
University of California, Davis Hybrid Electric Vehicle Group for
the conversion of a Chevy Equinox to a PHEV as part of the
Challenge X: Crossover to Sustainable Mobility engineering
competition.
The lithium-ion battery has the same capacity as the original
metal hydride battery but with half the weight. The battery can
be charged by either the internal combustion engine (ICE) or a
standard AC household electrical socket and can drive over 40
miles on the overnight electrical charge. The converted vehicle
has a fuel economy of 36 mpg in the city, and 38 mpg on the
highway, as compared to the original Chevy Equinox range of 19
mpg city and 25 mpg highway.
LTC is committed to providing sound energy solutions to the
automotive market. The company has developed a comprehensive
range of battery technologies and systems to satisfy all
automotive on-board power/energy storage needs, from high energy
requirements for Electric Vehicles (EVs) to high power systems
for Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEVs). The company combines its
innovative end-to-end manufacturing processes with proprietary
design, packaging and assembly techniques to supply customized
battery systems specifically designed to each unique
requirement.
About Lithium Technology Corporation: Lithium Technology
Corporation (LTC) is a global provider of large format
rechargeable power solutions for diverse applications, and offers
the largest lithium-ion cells with the highest power of any
standard commercial lithium ion cell produced in the western
hemisphere. With more than 30 years of experience, LTC leverages
its extensive expertise in high power and large battery
assemblies to commercialize advanced lithium batteries as a new
power source in the military and national security systems,
transportation and stationary power markets.
LTC manufactures the GAIA® product line of large, high power
hermetically sealed rechargeable lithium-ion cells and batteries.
The Company's product portfolio includes large cells and
batteries from 10 times the capacity of a standard laptop
computer battery to 100,000 times greater. LTC manufactures a
variety of standard cells that are assembled into custom large
batteries complete with electronics (battery management systems)
and electronics to communicate with other components of the
system for performance monitoring.
LTC headquarters are located in Plymouth Meeting, PA and R&D in
Nordhausen, Germany. LTC sales for the U.S. and European markets
are managed out of each of the offices. For more information
about LTC, its technology and products, please visit
http://www.lithiumtech.com .
Safe Harbor for Forward-looking Statements: [...] Contacts The
Red Consultancy Allyson Curtis, 212-529-8474
[EMAIL PROTECTED] © Business Wire 2007
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bouth 48 T-125s they sold them to me at 74.00$ each. dont know why your
paying so much. most I ever payed for a trogan was 76.00$, I guess its who you
deal with .. Wayne
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(ZENN LSV @ Las Vegas auto conference)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=209778
ZENN is Going to Las Vegas!
ZENN ELECTRIC VEHICLE TO BE SHOWCASED AT THE NATIONAL AUTO
DEALERS ASSOCIATION CONFERENCE IN LAS VEGAS FEBRUARY 3RD TO 6TH
2007
TORONTO, ONTARIO -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 31, 2007 -- ZENN
Motor Company, a leading electric vehicle
manufacturing company, is showcasing its vehicle in booth # 3297
in Central Hall C at the National Auto Dealers Association annual
conference in Las Vegas, February 3rd to 6th 2007 as part of its
distribution network expansion plan.
To learn more about innovative transportation solutions and to
see and drive the exciting new ZENN (Zero Emission, No Noise)
Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (NEV), please contact Bill
Williams, VP of North America Sales directly at (310) 601-6751.
"We are excited to showcase the ZENN to the top automotive
retailers in the country during this high profile event. Prime
territories for our high-margin vehicles are available NOW and we
are actively recruiting retailers to complete our distribution
network." stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer of the
Company.
"The zero emission ZENN is a vital transportation solution for
our congested and polluted cities." Mr. Clifford added. "We have
had a tremendous response from consumers and fleet operators
alike who realize that the ZENN is a perfect fit for their urban
or campus environment transportation needs."
The ZENN is an all-new electric low speed vehicle (LSV) with
European styling and appointments that offers customers
tremendous operational cost savings compared to a vehicle powered
by an internal combustion engine. Recently named Best Urban
Vehicle at the Michelin Bibendum Challenge, ZENN performed
exceptionally well in all categories including acceleration,
braking, power consumption and noise level.
The Neighborhood Electric Vehicle is an exciting new development
in personal transportation. The ZENN fills a significant gap that
cannot be met by inferior golf-cart type products in the
marketplace. Sales opportunities for the ZENN, including larger
fleets, abound in many niche markets such as resorts, urban core
environments, gated communities, convention centers, airports,
college and business campuses, municipalities, parks and more.
ABOUT ZENN Motor Company (ZMC) www.ZENNcars.com
Headquartered in Toronto, Canada, Feel Good Cars Corporation,
through its wholly owned subsidiary Feel Good Cars Inc., doing
business as ZENN Motor Company is dedicated to producing
zero-emission transportation solutions for global markets,
including the revolutionary ZENN, a perfect new urban vehicle.
The ZENN is sold through a growing network of retailers across
the United States.
Contacts: ZENN Motor Company Bill Williams Vice President North
American Sales (310) 601-6751 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ZENN Motor Company Ian Clifford Chief Executive Officer (416)
535-8395 ext. 202 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website:
www.ZENNcars.com
SOURCE: ZENN Motor Company
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee suggested:
> Wood seems like one of the least desirable materials. It's not
> dimensionally stable (warps), is conductive when it absorbs water, and
> is attacked by battery acid.
The downsides of wood are mostly moot if you apply premium grade epoxy
and/or epoxy/glass and/or epoxy paints. Seal the wood and you don't have
the conductivity or attack issues mentioned. As for dimensional stability,
I'd argue that wood is the better material since it does allow flex, does
expand with temperature and will better accomodate batteries which get
overstressed.
It's kind of funny that wood is being criticized for the potential for its
becoming electrically conductive if it absorbs enough liquids (something I
couldn't comment on), meanwhile literally dozens of the more prominent EV
conversions I know of use aluminum boxes, which are clearly conductive, both
thermally and electrically.
> You could use the wood-like decking lumber that is made from sawdust and
> recycled plastics. It can be cut, sawed, screwed, and nailed like wood;
> but because it is mostly plastic, it doesn't have the above drawbacks of
> real wood.
Talk about dimensional stability issues...
And those plastics have a poor strength/weight ratio, unlike wood.
I'll stick with wood.
-Myles
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--- Begin Message ---
[playing devils advocate]
My Porche gets 35 mpg on the highway and doesn't have to pull a trailer to
do it. How well (speed acceleartion) does the AC propulsion hybrid
perform while towing the trailer, compared to say a Porsche, Ferarri, or
Corvette?
> The AC propulsion series hybrid got 30 to 35 mpg (per wikipedia).
> Considering it was a small, 2500 lb sportscar, maybe not so good, say
> compared to an Insight or Prius. Considering that it was as fast as a
> Ferarri, Porsche, or Corvette, that's awesome!
>
> It had a 500 cc Kawaski motor, so emissions probably weren't too bad. This
> one is probably as good as a series hybrid can get.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:51:31 PM
> Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>
> ...
> Can anyone provide documented evidence of a series hybrid that can beat
> any of the current ICE vehicles? I don't mean the "Mother Earth" hybrid
> scam which even Mother Earth magazine admitted they couldn't duplicate,
> and I don't mean "Well, I did this back in 1970, but I don't have any
> proof" I mean a verifiable series hybrid, preferably one that still exists
> and can be tested for both fuel economy and emissions.
> ...
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
> with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It begs the question: What was the performance of the T-Zero towing it's
genset? Still as good as the Ferarri, Porsche, or Corvette?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: February 2, 2007 1:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
The AC propulsion series hybrid got 30 to 35 mpg (per wikipedia).
Considering it was a small, 2500 lb sportscar, maybe not so good, say
compared to an Insight or Prius. Considering that it was as fast as a
Ferarri, Porsche, or Corvette, that's awesome!
It had a 500 cc Kawaski motor, so emissions probably weren't too bad. This
one is probably as good as a series hybrid can get.
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:51:31 PM
Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
...
Can anyone provide documented evidence of a series hybrid that can beat any
of the current ICE vehicles? I don't mean the "Mother Earth" hybrid scam
which even Mother Earth magazine admitted they couldn't duplicate, and I
don't mean "Well, I did this back in 1970, but I don't have any proof" I
mean a verifiable series hybrid, preferably one that still exists and can be
tested for both fuel economy and emissions.
...
____________________________________________________________________________
________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie
showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW the GC dealers around (only local place to buy GC batteries) charge a
lot more for batteries in small quanties, especially if it's not a
commonly stocked item.
They'll give a deal if I buy 20 of the same and I'm not in a hurry.
> I just bouth 48 T-125s they sold them to me at 74.00$ each. dont know why
> your paying so much. most I ever payed for a trogan was 76.00$, I guess
> its who you deal with .. Wayne
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Expansion in a composite is bad news!
The glass will not expand significantly with temp or tension. So if you
have it faced on one side for example, it will warp into a curve as the
backing expands but the glass stays the same length and can't be
stretched. This will stress the edges of the box which cannot fit onto
a curved side. The wood may split from being curved.
If both sides are faced then distortion should be low, but there is
still a possibility the wood will delaminate or split as it tries to expand.
If you use the right wood and follow decent construction techniques, the
expansion problem is minimal. Like I say, boatbuilders do it all the
time and it works very well even in a "high moisture" environment. I
would be concerned about just getting plywood and glass and having at
it, but I have little doubt that following boatbuilder's methods can be
quite reliable.
Danny
Myles Twete wrote:
The downsides of wood are mostly moot if you apply premium grade epoxy
and/or epoxy/glass and/or epoxy paints. Seal the wood and you don't have
the conductivity or attack issues mentioned. As for dimensional stability,
I'd argue that wood is the better material since it does allow flex, does
expand with temperature and will better accomodate batteries which get
overstressed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, perhaps the general figures you provide for efficiency and
emissions are generally accepted.
* total losses from engine to wheels are somewhere around 10-15% for a
standard transmission.
* single ratio transmission losses are around 5-10% between the motor
and the wheels
* typical motors and (good) alternators run at around 80-85% efficient
* genset small motors pollute hundreds of times more than modern
automotive ICEs
I don't know, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve -- it
would help if you could share your sources.
When you quote numbers without citing sources, and then ask to be proven
wrong *WITH* cited sources, your point rings hollow...
> I believe that you are the one who is mistaken... <snip>
> ...If you can cite some reliable, documented evidence to the
> contrary, I'd love to see it.
It is not generally necessary to prove ideas false. What is required is
to demonstrate that they are true. Anyone who argues for an idea must be
prepared to support it. No idea is valid -- or invalid -- just because
it can't be disproved.
Any argument that amounts to the statement "prove me wrong" is
inherently bogus...
...and easy to discount.
Randii
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--- Begin Message ---
WHOOPS. I talked my way around in a circle. :rolleyes: Sorry.
It is not generally necessary to prove ideas false. What is required is
to demonstrate that they are true. Anyone who argues for an idea must be
prepared to support it. NO IDEA IS VALID JUST BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE
DISPROVED. SIMILARLY, NO IDEA IS INVALID JUST BECAUSE NO ONE CAN PROVE
IT.
Any argument that amounts to the statement "prove me wrong" is
inherently bogus...
...and easy to discount.
Randii (been a long time since I had to remember the rules of high
school debate)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just added new pictures to my Isuzu p-u page in the photo album. Truck just
got back from the local graphics shop with a new body wrap. You need to look
what can be had for low cost.
Tom
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--- Begin Message ---
I think it would be a very very bad idea to have flooded lead-acid
batteries in the passenger compartment.
The CRX is a good small car, but if you use the back for bats,
I would seal it off from the driver.
Jack
Randy Burleson wrote:
Located in Utah is a 72Volt Conversion- Maybe a
e-volks conversion from the description. For those
looking for prebuilt EV
Item: 200075312724
Well, who ever built it doesn't mind sitting up against an open
battery pack! I guess he's not worried about any acid spray
getting into the interior? More pictures:
http://www.preparedness1.com/hondacrx.htm
The same fella had a home-built Geo Metro conversion for sale before the
holidays, for about the same price. He also has a Ford Festiva
conversion for sale: http://www.preparedness1.com/fordfestiva.htm
With a Geo, Honda, and Ford, it looks like he's ramping up into the
small space of build-to-sell conversions (as opposed to build-to-spec
customs).
List those prices out:
1 @ $795 for motor
1 @ $550 for controller
9 @ $200ea US-8VGC batteries
Sums out to just over $3K at _list_prices_ before you start uninstall
ICE, install bits, cable, adapt, and etc. $5-6K really doesn't seem bad,
for a turn-key conversion with new bits.
All seem to use the D&D #ES_15A motor, with 9 8V batteries pushing a 72
VDC Alltrax controller. Those look like US Battery 8V units, I think,
though they have an 'Energizer' label? The chargers seem under-spec, to
my eye. He does seem to be pretty open and truthful about limited top
speeds, which is refreshing.
Randii
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> I would be concerned about just getting plywood and glass and having at
> it, but I have little doubt that following boatbuilder's methods can be
> quite reliable.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Try applying marine epoxy and glass
on new large plywood patches on the bottom of a boat while lying underneath
on your back. Not fun (I've done it), but very doable, very strong, quite
flexible and durable.
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Well you can look up the specs for EV motors. 80%-85% is common. A
generator is the same process, just in reverse, and isn't going to be
too dissimilar. Still has copper wire losses and magnetic core losses.
Lead acid battery cycle efficiency, like 85% at best when heavy charging
and discharging are involved.
Most of these EVs still use the tranny and differential. So those
losses are the same unless you have some sort of nifty wheel motor
solution or whatever.
So that's like a total of 45% losses right there. So what makes you
believe that a generator can get nearly twice the shaft hp-hr out of gas
than a car engine to at least break even?
Maybe with millions in development you could get in a more efficient
generator and wheel motors. Li-ion has a fairly efficient charge cycle
too. But still there's no indication that an ordinary internal
combustion engine is tremendously more efficient when run this way.
Danny
Randy Burleson wrote:
Peter, perhaps the general figures you provide for efficiency and
emissions are generally accepted.
* total losses from engine to wheels are somewhere around 10-15% for a
standard transmission.
* single ratio transmission losses are around 5-10% between the motor
and the wheels
* typical motors and (good) alternators run at around 80-85% efficient
* genset small motors pollute hundreds of times more than modern
automotive ICEs
I don't know, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve -- it
would help if you could share your sources.
When you quote numbers without citing sources, and then ask to be proven
wrong *WITH* cited sources, your point rings hollow...
I believe that you are the one who is mistaken... <snip>
...If you can cite some reliable, documented evidence to the
contrary, I'd love to see it.
It is not generally necessary to prove ideas false. What is required is
to demonstrate that they are true. Anyone who argues for an idea must be
prepared to support it. No idea is valid -- or invalid -- just because
it can't be disproved.
Any argument that amounts to the statement "prove me wrong" is
inherently bogus...
...and easy to discount.
Randii
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
ALL of the currently commercially available Hybrid autos are parallel
hybrids.
The Toyota Prius-derived hybrids can (and *do*) run as either series or
parallel hybrids. Different modes at different times. A clear example of
series mode is when they are in reverse. The only thing propelling the
car is the traction motor that turns the pinion of the differential
directly. Simultaneously and independently, the ICE can be running, to
spin the second motor as a generator through the power split device,
recharging the battery and/or powering the traction motor.
A series hybrid has to convert Mechanical energy/power into electrical
energy/power (where you loose some energy/power) and then back to
mechanical energy/power (where you loose some more).
If you have sized your ICE so that it is too small to handle continuous
operation at highway speeds, and plan to make up for it by storing surplus
power generated earlier, then you also have storage looses.
So a series hybrid is a loose, loose, (loose) situation.
I think you meant "lose"; not loose :-)
You are correct on the major points, but the details are important.
Exactly *how* efficient is the ICE? And at what speeds? Same for the
electric motor/generators. The details make all the difference in
whether a hybrid will be more efficient or not.
It seems to me that a hybrid with a big ICE / small electric motor
favors the parallel approach. Conversely, a hybrid with a big electric
motor and small ICE favors the series approach.
All current hybrids are the big ICE / small electric style; so they
favor parallel hybrids.
The ideal platform for a series hybrid would be an electric vehicle,
plus a tiny ICE that only runs at its peak efficiency point, or is off
entirely. This tiny ICE is too small to bother to couple it directly to
the wheels; so it only drives a generator. It's better to think of it as
a range extender, rather than as something to propel the vehicle all by
itself.
You do have the problems of pollution. If this is a small car, the ICE
is *really* small -- lawnmower sized. Such engines are usually very
dirty, and not designed at all to be clean. It's not that it can't be
done; it's just that no one is trying to do it. The market does not
require it. I would think the best chance to make a clean small engine
is to fuel it with something other than gasoline (hydrogen, propane,
alcohol, etc.)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Lee suggested:
Wood seems like one of the least desirable materials...
Myles Twete wrote:
The downsides of wood are mostly moot if you apply premium grade
epoxy and/or epoxy/glass and/or epoxy paints.
True enough. Though if you're using epoxy/glass, the wood itself becomes
unnecessary (except perhaps, as a convenient form to build the
fiberglass on).
Seal the wood and you don't have the conductivity or attack issues
mentioned.
Yes, if you can seal it well enough. How long will it stay sealed,
before splits or crack form to allow water to enter?
It's kind of funny that wood is being criticized for the potential
for its becoming electrically conductive... meanwhile literally
dozens of EV conversions use aluminum boxes, which are clearly
conductive
Agreed; metal is fine for electrical boxes when you can assure it won't
touch the terminals. But this discussion was about using a material
between *vertically* stacked batteries. Metal would be a terrible
choice, because it is very difficult to prevent it from shorting to the
wiring or terminals.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
CNG/Propane is cleaner, when porperly tuned using all that expensive
emmisions testing equipment, but even then I don't think it's "Much"
cleaner.
Anecdotal evidence: CNG and propane fueled vehicles are run indoors all
the time. It is apparently legal and safe. I haven't seen any studies
linking indoor CNG or propane vehicles to any increased risks of health
problems. This makes me suspect they are *cleaner* than even the
cleanest gasoline engines, which are *not* allowed to run indoors.
Heck, my local convenience store even uses a propane fueled floor
cleaner! The store isn't any bigger than my house!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Sorry about the post with no link.
Here it is
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/719
Tom
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I hope this isn't adding fuel to the fire, but I was somehow directed
to this site some months ago:
http://www.e-traction.com/whisper_2.htm
There's a graph at the bottom of the page that shows this company's
"series hybrid" bus getting 14.8 mpg on the highway, versus a
standard diesel bus that gets 3.5 mpg. Now granted, it does cost
240,000 Euros or $311,000 US, but that also means that this 18,000
lb. bus has about 20% better fuel economy than my 5,000 lb. work van.
This is the type of vehicle I expect to see in the near future, but
on a smaller scale. Here was the quote that I remembered about the bus:
"maintain a speed of 80 km/hr with only 57 kW."
I didn't want to send this until I found the page referencing the
batteries: http://www.e-traction.com/technical_specifications.htm
"28 Lithium-Ion batteries @ 40Ah each," but "Super-capacitors are
also being considered."
Aaron Quinto
At 01:20 PM 02/02/2007, you wrote:
Joseph Lado wrote:
> Peter, you are mistaken. You are one of the people readers look to for
answers on this list, however, you have got to get your numbers straight
and really investigate your opinion on this mater, because you don't have it
right. Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting regenerative
braking and the advantages of using batteries.
Joseph, can you please provide the literature/information that backs up your
claims? I have only read a little bit (the research done by AC Propulsion),
and they are getting about 30mpg with a genset. No so good...
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Anyone try to get these Gaia 45Ah batteries?
http://www.lithiumtech.com/StandardCells.html
Any idea on costs? Quite high I imagine.
John
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(Li-ion Tech; pluginpartners.org video)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070131005314&newsLang=en
> January 31, 2007 08:00 AM Eastern Time
>
> Lithium Technology Corporation Drives Ahead with
> Battery
> Applications for Advanced Automotives
>
> PLYMOUTH MEETING, Pa.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Advances in
> lithium-ion
> battery technology over the past few years, and a
> shift in the
> mindset of auto manufacturers, have made
> hybrid-electric vehicles
> (HEVs), plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles (PHEVs) and
> electric
> vehicles (EVs) a viable alternative to traditional
> fuel-powered
> automotives for the near future, according to
> officials at
> Lithium Technology Corporation, a global provider of
> large
> lithium-ion rechargeable power solutions. LTC has
> focused solely
> on the development and production of large format
> lithium-ion
> batteries for more than twenty years and offers
> solutions today
> to drive the future.
>
> There has been a change of mindset within the car
> industry over
> the past two years triggered by the success the
> Japanese have had
> with the HEV, comments Dr. Klaus Brandt, executive
> vice
> president of LTC and managing director of LTC
> subsidiary GAIA
> Akkumulatorenwerke (GAIA). Large lithium-ion
> solutions have
> proven to be a technical reality for passenger cars
> and have
> achieved respectable performance.
>
> LTC has powered a project in conjunction with
> Innosys Engineering
> in which a four passenger Daihatsu Cuore was
> converted into an
> electric car using the lithium-ion batteries and a
> three-phase
> asynchronous electric motor. The battery, built with
> cells
> manufactured by LTC subsidiary GAIA, has a capacity
> of 25 kWh and
> an approximate highway range of 180-200km (100-125
> miles) at
> 90-100km/hr (56-60 mph). These results are similar
> to the
> expected performance of the recently announced Volt
> slated to be
> made available by General Motors in 2010.
>
> The technology is here today. LTC has it, and weve
> demonstrated
> it, says Dr. Brandt. Price is the biggest factor
> holding back
> the production of these more environmentally
> friendly, fuel
> efficient vehicles. By committing to work together,
> the auto
> manufactures and battery companies can bring the
> cost down and
> make cars like the Volt an affordable reality for
> the consumer.
>
> LTCs technology was recently highlighted in a video
> produced by
> Plug-In Partners, a national grass-roots initiative
> to
> demonstrate to automakers that a market for
> flexible-fuel PHEVs
> exists today. The full video discussing the economic
> and
> environmental benefits of PHEVs can be viewed on the
> Plug-In
> Partners website at
>
> [Video
>
http://pluginpartners.org/includes/images/PHEV%20Video%2010%20Best.wmv
> ]
>
> The piece featured a project in which LTC provided
> cells to the
> University of California, Davis Hybrid Electric
> Vehicle Group for
> the conversion of a Chevy Equinox to a PHEV as part
> of the
> Challenge X: Crossover to Sustainable Mobility
> engineering
> competition.
>
> The lithium-ion battery has the same capacity as the
> original
> metal hydride battery but with half the weight. The
> battery can
> be charged by either the internal combustion engine
> (ICE) or a
> standard AC household electrical socket and can
> drive over 40
> miles on the overnight electrical charge. The
> converted vehicle
> has a fuel economy of 36 mpg in the city, and 38 mpg
> on the
> highway, as compared to the original Chevy Equinox
> range of 19
> mpg city and 25 mpg highway.
>
> LTC is committed to providing sound energy solutions
> to the
> automotive market. The company has developed a
> comprehensive
> range of battery technologies and systems to satisfy
> all
> automotive on-board power/energy storage needs, from
> high energy
> requirements for Electric Vehicles (EVs) to high
> power systems
> for Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEVs). The company
> combines its
> innovative end-to-end manufacturing processes with
> proprietary
> design, packaging and assembly techniques to supply
> customized
> battery systems specifically designed to each unique
> requirement.
>
> About Lithium Technology Corporation: Lithium
> Technology
> Corporation (LTC) is a global provider of large
> format
> rechargeable power solutions for diverse
> applications, and offers
> the largest lithium-ion cells with the highest power
> of any
> standard commercial lithium ion cell produced in the
> western
> hemisphere. With more than 30 years of experience,
> LTC leverages
> its extensive expertise in high power and large
> battery
> assemblies to commercialize advanced lithium
> batteries as a new
> power source in the military and national security
> systems,
> transportation and stationary power markets.
>
> LTC manufactures the GAIA® product line of large,
> high power
> hermetically sealed rechargeable lithium-ion cells
> and batteries.
> The Company's product portfolio includes large cells
> and
> batteries from 10 times the capacity of a standard
> laptop
> computer battery to 100,000 times greater. LTC
> manufactures a
> variety of standard cells that are assembled into
> custom large
> batteries complete with electronics (battery
> management systems)
> and electronics to communicate with other components
> of the
> system for performance monitoring.
>
> LTC headquarters are located in Plymouth Meeting, PA
> and R&D in
> Nordhausen, Germany. LTC sales for the U.S. and
> European markets
> are managed out of each of the offices. For more
> information
> about LTC, its technology and products, please visit
> http://www.lithiumtech.com .
>
> Safe Harbor for Forward-looking Statements: [...]
> Contacts The
> Red Consultancy Allyson Curtis, 212-529-8474
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] © Business Wire
> 2007
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
>
=== message truncated ===
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