EV Digest 6379
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Where did the RAV4 go?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BBB, where was Steve Clunn
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: my battery fire, an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BBS?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV digest 6372
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) BBS: EVMechanic.com initiated
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BBS: EVMechanic.com initiated
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV digest 6372
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 6372
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think he's referring to the one being sold by Plug In America, and the
proceeds were supposed to go to it. I didn't bid on it, but did watch it in
My Ebay. The funny thing is that after the auction, it disappeared from my
My Ebay list although two other RAV4 EVs that sold earlier are still on my
list. I was trying to keep them to see the final sale price along with
mileage, condition, etc. , and it seemed really odd for it to just vanish.
I also have not seen anything about who bought it, although buyers usually
surface here or on the RAV4 EV list.
Dave
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Where did the RAV4 go?
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 23:22:56 -0800
OK, let me try to get this straight, because I missed the mark
entirely on my earlier post.
Either there is confusion between two entirely different
RAV-4 EV sales around the same time, or someone is severely
mis-representing the sale that was performed.
I was contacted by a person I entirely trust, who clarified
that the auction was executed and the RAV-4 EV sold as announced
to the highest bidder.
However, when the beneficiary of the estate heard the amount
it sold for, the earlier promise was broken that the entire
amount would benefit the sellers' EV promotion organisation,
so they only received a fraction of the sales price in the end.
I do not know where the message came from that Chris quoted.
Possibly a standard warning by the auction site that in the
past illegal and counterfeit "second chance" offers have been
sent to all bidders by others than the seller, in hopes of
receiving money without delivering any goods and disappearing
before the transaction can be reversed. I know Ebay has already
changed their listing policy that above a certain bidding amount
the names of bidders no longer are shown, except to sellers and
the bidders themselves, to reduce the amount of spam sent to
bidders.
Chris, please send the info you have off-list to me, so I can
check if this is the same auction we are talking about.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 1:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Where did the RAV4 go?
"Proceeds to go to the EV Club"?
That sounds suspicious - who donates $67,000 to an EV club?
"to contact the cops" sounds like it was a scam.
Just guessing here - the people involved should be contacted
to find out the real cause, if you really want to know.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 6:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where did the RAV4 go?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Chris,
>
> You mean the one in Menlo Park, CA, listing 300070153039?
> That is around the corner from here!
No. There was one being sold by an EV club out there. Proceeds to go to
the EV club, posted to a bunch of EV lists..
It wasn't ended early, it was canceled with a message to all bidders
saying that the seller has been suspended and if you get an offer to buy
the item to contact the cops. Which was pretty heavy-handed I think.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I should point out that "foreign" (European and Japanese from what I
understand) versions of the Prius can be had with an "EV Only" switch. Prius
forums discuss where this can be retrofitted to US versions of the car. This
apparently locks-out ICE operation; I don't know if the 42 mph limit still
applies or not with this feature. Not sure why US versions don't have this
option...
Even though the ICE runs at speeds >41 mph the mileage display can still claim
99 mpg if not under load. Something about needing to lubricate the power
splitter?? FWIW, our '06 Prius can show this condition even at 70+ mph on the
interstate. The ICE may still be running but the power seems to be coming from
battery.
----- Original Message ----
From: Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 11:58:28 PM
Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
Personally, I do not want to argue the merits and deficiencies of
parallel and series hybrid configurations.
I do not want a parallel hybrid and would never buy one.
I do not want a 2001 Prius that I have to "pulse" or keep under 42 mph
or over 42 mph or drive in reverse.
What I do want is a series hybrid that can be driven like the Volt for
the first 40 miles in pure EV mode. I would also love to have the EV 1
series hybrid concept that never made it to production.
I also would like a pure electric vehicle with a 200 mile range and all
the accouterments of today's luxury vehicle.
Until I can buy something I want, I guess I have to stick with what I
have and at least console myself with my 60 mpg Suzuki Scooter!
I just cannot see the attraction to a parallel hybrid vehicle where the
driver has no control over the ICE.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Check the archives, I've quoted sources numerous times in the past. I
> don't currently have acess to my old computer so I don't have them handy,
> and I don't feel like looking them up again (try google).
>
> For a start you can check metric mind for the efficeincy curves of their
> AC motor system, or check EVparts for the efficiency of series motors.
> The AC setup actually peaks at over 90%, but averages somewhat less. THe
> series wound motors peak at around 85-96% but average less.
>
> Motors and generators are the same thing, so the better
> alternators/generators will have the same basic efficiency as the above
> motors. Typical commercial alternators are typically somewhat less
> efficient, again check the archives or google it.
>
> It's a bit unusual for someone to be argueing that 15% is too little for
> drive train looses, in the past I've had to post sources because most
> folks feel it's less than that. Gears can be extreemly efficient, over
> 99% in some cases. Normal automotive transmission have extra, unused,
> gears spinning in oil, and synchros which lowers the efficiency somewhat
> as well as the hypoid drive gears in rear wheel drive setups that add a
> couple extra % of loss. This is why they are only 85-90% efficeint with
> FWD typically being around 90% and RWD around 85%. Automatic
> transmissions typically add another 5% or so.
>
> Again check the archives for sources, I'm tired of posting the same info
> every year.
>
>
>> Peter, perhaps the general figures you provide for efficiency and
>> emissions are generally accepted.
>> * total losses from engine to wheels are somewhere around 10-15% for a
>> standard transmission.
>> * single ratio transmission losses are around 5-10% between the motor
>> and the wheels
>> * typical motors and (good) alternators run at around 80-85% efficient
>> * genset small motors pollute hundreds of times more than modern
>> automotive ICEs
>> I don't know, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve -- it
>> would help if you could share your sources.
>>
>> When you quote numbers without citing sources, and then ask to be proven
>> wrong *WITH* cited sources, your point rings hollow...
>>
>>> I believe that you are the one who is mistaken... <snip>
>>> ...If you can cite some reliable, documented evidence to the
>>> contrary, I'd love to see it.
>>>
>> It is not generally necessary to prove ideas false. What is required is
>> to demonstrate that they are true. Anyone who argues for an idea must be
>> prepared to support it. No idea is valid -- or invalid -- just because
>> it can't be disproved.
>>
>> Any argument that amounts to the statement "prove me wrong" is
>> inherently bogus...
>> ...and easy to discount.
>>
>> Randii
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These are interesting figures. I always balk however at any comparison of
EV technology to ICE or otherwise however because the researches always seem
to make assumptions about what the energy source for the EV will be - often
citing the dirtiest scenarios vs. from a renewable source energy. At least
the Timmermans study seems to finally honestly address this.
Around here, we get so much power from hydro and wind power, it's difficult
to really make assessments beyond assuming that components of the cars were
perhaps made using less clean energy. And if everybody with an EV threw a
PV array up on their roofs, the picture continues to skew even further away,
if not completely, from EVs contributing anything negative to the
environment after manufacture.
-
Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
Here are some figures from a book "Electric vehicle technology" by James
Larmine & John Lowry (2003). (The data is originally from Hoogers (ed.)
(2003) Fuel Cell Technology Handbook):
NOx(g/km) SOx CO PM CO2 Energy (MJ/km)
Gasoline ICE 0.26 0.2 2.3 0.01 209 3.16
Diesel ICE 0.57 0.13 0.65 0.05 154 2.36
CNG ICE 0.1 0.01 0.05 <0.0001 158 2.74
Battery car UK 0.54 0.74 0.09 0.05 104 1.98
Battery car CCGT 0.17 0.06 0.08 0.0001 88.1 1.71
The first battery car uses current UK electricity mix, the second one
electricity from state-of-the-art combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT)
generators supplied with natural gas.
The CNG ICE was assumed to have the same energy use as the gasoline
vehicle, but with 10 % better efficiency, i.e. 16.5 %.
These are well-to-wheel figures.
--------
Timmermans et al in "Environmental rating of vehicles with different
fuels and
drive trains: a univocal and applicable methodology" (2006) developed a
tool that rates the cars based on their well-to-wheel impact on global
warming, air quality, ecosystems, human health and noise. Bigger number =
better:
Petrol 62.9-64.5
Diesel 50-63.2
LPG 68.4-69.5
CNG 75.8
Hybrid 75.8
Electric Belg 85.3
Electric CCGT 85
Electric Renew 96.7
Belg= Belgian electricity mix
CCGT=electricity from combined cycle gas turbines
Renew=renewable energy sources
terveisin,
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/3/2007 6:53:43 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Subj: BBB, where was Steve Clunn
> Date:2/3/2007 6:53:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
>
> I started getting ready for BBB 2 weeks before so how did I miss the
> first
> event , friday night? Well here's my story ,,, Don's s-10 with the big 13 "
> motor comes by my shop 2 weeks before and we did the last of the wiring and
> all
> seemed good ,, Don's been planning BBB for a year and things where getting
> together at the end now . I get a call from him about a week before about
> some
> motor problems , and he's got to send it back ,,, Truns out the timing
> wasn't
> set right ,, Its looks like it won't be back in time
> **Where was the motor
> sent? Could not the timing be adjusted in place?D.Berube
>
> .,,BUT ... I have a 11"
> motor sitting in my shop ,, Don's got the time off from work ,, And I'm
> feeling bad that he's going to miss bbb .. So I say ,, bring your truck over
>
> early friday and will put the 11 in and then head for bbb which is about 50
> miles away... 8 am with start ,, the first dry day in 3 days ,,, I haven't
> yet
> had a chance to try the parellel series shifting on my 2 9" porsche 912 so
> we
> are off to the metal store to get plates for the motor mount and it looks
> like
> a good time to test on my car ... I believe it did the shift ,, but the
> heavy
> amp pull found the battery with a poor conection and we had a event ... Lots
> of
> smoke , but as it was comming from the front where just batteries where I
> wasn't to worried ,,, a few miniuts of rewireing and we where on our way ,,,
>
> with 6 batteries out of the loop ... getting home we went right to work ,,,
> I
> have the 925 hawkers wired with this ground strap cable that had some
> eyelits
> that ended up being the week link , t... So in between helping Don ,. I
> replaced them with regular cables ,,, and fooled around recharging the pack
> that now was at two points of discharge ,,, along with the new battery I put
> in
> ( used the one from the lights as it had some brake in time on it ) .... We
> are
> all working fast but the clock just kept on ticking . 3:00 with the leave
> time
> but some how it came and went ,,, and before I know it its 9:00 ,,, I
> didn't't
> have time to pick up a generator as planned and now face a 50 mile trip
> towing
> the 912 with my ev work truck ,,, Yes it was late but we went anyway ,, I
> needed to get there so as to be there saterday all charged up for the
> distance
> event ,, so off we went ,,, Well I really needed that generater ,, and ended
> up
> driving pretty slow to make it ,,, which ment when we got there it was over
> ,,,
> I plugged in as soon as I got there but people where leaving and the place
> was
> very empty .... ;-( Where dose the time go ,,, any way we where there ,, I
> left the truck charging at the camp ground with the charger pulling 10 amp
> and
> went to get some sleep ,,,, I missed seeing any of the cars run and the
> people
> who made them ,,, bummer , but at least I'll be there for the saterday
> events
> ,, or so I though ,,,,
> Part 2 ,,, how I missed the range event
> Steve Clunn ,,,
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny;
Been there, done that! Enbarrasing in traffic, I know. But shit happens
to quote Forrest Gump!You probably had a internal loose connection INSIDE
the Badd-ery? You outside housekeeping probably wouldn't have made a
difference? A crappy, or broken, or broke, when you called for a few hundred
amps and it opened up? Creating a nice spark inside the cell.Works best(
Bigger Boom) right after you charge.Lottsa free hydrogen there?
Drove home from work one nite and the car just current limited at about
100 amps. Oooozed home at what EVer road speed that would give me, fully
suspecting the controller, but a hunch it was a badd-ery? Said the hell with
it, deal with it in the AM, plugged 'er in and went to bed. In the AM I
unplugged, hopped in, and tried to drive out the driveway. Oh I went a car
lenght or two and BLAM! THAT battery was easy to find as it was completely
topless!It was a loose connection, INSIDE the cell, you could see it nicely
as everything was out in the open!Arc mark, and all that.
Other folks mention keeping the tops of the batteries clean. Important!
The @#$%^ floodies piss glop out the caps CONSTANTLY!!! Hey! Battery
manufacturerers? Howbout a tight CAP! One that can vent WITHOUT all the
other crap? Nawaz? Got your ears on? A preamiun, no sweat cap? I'll buy! I
hose them down often, have built my battery racks so that the water flows
through, and over board. Think Limber holes on a boat. Special slots that
sea water can "Vent" overboard.So I don't have insulated boxes, hell, with
global warming I can pretty much get away with out it in CT.If the boxes
were tight I would have heating issues in the summer! In the front they are
just in open angle(Bed frames) easy to wash down, but gotta keep the water
AWAY from the Raptur! That's the quickist way to kill the controller!A few
drops get inside and you're calling the Auto Club. You mean you don't belong
to an Auto Club? You should, really. They come and scoop your jewel up and
take you, and it, home, on a nice Diseasel flatbed! Worth the bux it
costs. But, keep in mind if you actually USE them a few times they will dump
you pretty damn quick! So have yur wife or Significent Other come push or
rope tow you home if it is a short trip home!!!!!Save Auto Klub for a 40
mile tow<g>!When ya ran out of juice and have tripped a few winpy outlets
TRYING to get a charge, want to get home the same DAY!
Just a few thoughts.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: my battery fire
> Ben,
> What a drag to deal with that mess.
> After charging all day in my non ventilated battery box I ran an errand
> and was about a mile into my trip when I went to accelerate across an
> intersection when the traffic light turned green and then all of a
> sudden bang. A center battery in the middle of my pack blew its top off.
> I could not find any lose battery interconnects anywhere . Yet something
> ignited the freshly made hydrogen. I think I had an internal battery
> failure and a poorly vented box.
Yup! See above.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Would you be willing to assist in the administration of the website.
I've tentatively got everything setup, with the exception of an index
page (which I am developing now), but will definitely need assistance in
getting things kicked off. I've created a forum thread just for
socia-economic discussions (I think it is a good one to have as well,
and would make an insightful reference point for my students who are
interested). You can view the thread here:
http://evmechanic.net/evchatportal/index.php
Thanks for your suggestion,
Ralph.
Chris wrote:
Can I please request that one area be set up especially FOR socia-
economic discussion. I keep getting more and more good arguments to
drive ev's an plug-in hybrids, but posting them gets me a bad rep at
the moment.
Good Luck with this project, I'm very sure it will snowball
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 02:44:00 -0500, you wrote:
>I run a cng dodge van as well as my solectria ev and the cng websites all
>claim cng vehicles are as much as 95% lower emissions (than petroleum-fueled
>vehicles), and because it's not dependent on foreign oil its a win/win.
>mike young solectria ev/cng dodge van
What would the emissions on an alcohol fueled ICE be like.
This sort of ties into the series hybrid idea also. I could see a
series hybrid with a very small alcohol fueled generator and a small
fuel tank. Sort of a limp home mode
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:58:28 -0500, you wrote:
>Personally, I do not want to argue the merits and deficiencies of
>parallel and series hybrid configurations.
>
>I do not want a parallel hybrid and would never buy one.
>
>I do not want a 2001 Prius that I have to "pulse" or keep under 42 mph
>or over 42 mph or drive in reverse.
>
>What I do want is a series hybrid that can be driven like the Volt for
>the first 40 miles in pure EV mode. I would also love to have the EV 1
>series hybrid concept that never made it to production.
>
Ditto, I just want to go down to a dealer and buy a 2008 OEM
electric/series hybrid.
>I also would like a pure electric vehicle with a 200 mile range and all
>the accouterments of today's luxury vehicle.
>
Ditto, 150 miles range would cover 99% of my driving. As I
remember, This was the range of the EV-1.
>Until I can buy something I want, I guess I have to stick with what I
>have and at least console myself with my 60 mpg Suzuki Scooter!
Ditto, I will continue working on Pikachu.
>I just cannot see the attraction to a parallel hybrid vehicle where the
>driver has no control over the ICE.
Ditto, A simple switch to keep the ICE off, would be all that is
needed.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Joseph Lado" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 4:12 AM
Subject: Re: The Series Hybrid Debate
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > Saying that series hybrids are bad because it isn't perfect
> > for all situations is like saying that Penicillin is bad because it
> can't cure
> > all diseases. We have to shy away from the strong tendency in
> listserv and
> > comments to blogs to dominate by rhetorical skill. What we are
> really after is
> > a better understanding of what is best. For us on this listserv
> that believe
> > that EVs are a solution to many of our problems in terms of
> security (no
> > dependence on foreign oil, no money funding terrorism, no ability
> to harm our
> > economy through disruption of our fuel supply) in terms of
> environment (far
> > less production of particulates and VOCs right where we breath,
> less pollution
> > over all, less CO2 global warming gasses) in terms of piece of mind
Hi EVerybody;
All this hybrid, smybrid stuff? Ah Poo! Don't ya consider the present
crop of hybrids (that NEVER do the claims of miliage, 40 or so, on a Prius,
less when it's cold!)They are "Training Wheels" into REAL Electric cars,
anyhow. I don't know ANYBODY that is charging their Prius from sunlight and
passing all the damn gas stations. I don't mean to diss the present crop of
hybrids, the'll do, UNTILL EV's become popular and the infratstructure is in
place. Quick charge stations, 240/50 amp plugs in parking lots. Hybrids are
turning folks into thinking "Electric". It COULD happen, with a simple
regeme change in DC. Busting the monolopy, with battery patents.Hell! Let
Chevron collect a reasonable royalty on the NMh stuff? EV's issues arent
technical, but political. I'm preaching to the choir here.But the American
Sheeple are beginning to see the (electric) light. If they could ALL drive a
Rav-4 or EV-1 they would be demanding electrics! This is from a Weekend
Rav-4 driver at BBB! Thank you Charles Whalen for that perk, at BBB!!I
coulda run my RR commute and NEVER plugged in at home<g>!EVery 2nd day, or
so!
Thank you, Chris Paine, Sony Classic Pix,WKtEC, Al Gore an'
"Inconvenient Truth". The watershed here turning folks toward EV's. the Warp
motors are selling like crazy, more have been adapted this year so far than
ALL last year.Nobody needs so many boat anchors<g>! They are going in newbee
conversions, Big Time. Have 2 going right in MY Zip code!
The plug-in series hybrid is the next best thing. Yet it is
> only a step
> > towards a day when long range EVs will be commonplace. Plug-in
> series hybrids
> > are a good thing for the future of EVs.
> > Thank You! Amen!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sincerely, Joseph Lado>
An' Bob Rice
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To all that are interested,
I have tenatively created a bulletin board that has email response
capability for the discussion specifically of
experimental/electric/alternative topics of interest to the list.
Currently the message threads are empty, with the exception of a general
posting announcement. My apologies for taking so long - this work was
actually completed last month, but I haven't had time to devote to it as
I was launching another site. Please forward any forum requests (or if
you are willing to help manage the site) to: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
I (may be wrong) but think the site is functional enough to be useful.
This will naturally depend upon the involvement of those interested. I
wish to point out that I am not looking to replace the list, but to
augment it. Additionally I am not interested in spurring discussions on
whether or not there should be a website bulletin board or not, but
rather working towards a solution of consolidating threads of interest,
and in being able to email subscribe to those threads that are of most
interest (so if your portable device can receive html or text messages
you "should" be able to receive notifications).
I look forward to some constructive input.
Thanks,
Ralph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well crap ... you'd think I could tell the difference between .com and .net
The correct URL is: EVMechanic.net
The correct email is: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
... geesh it's gonna be a long working weekend.
Ralph.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To all that are interested,
I have tenatively created a bulletin board that has email response
capability for the discussion specifically of
experimental/electric/alternative topics of interest to the list.
Currently the message threads are empty, with the exception of a
general posting announcement. My apologies for taking so long - this
work was actually completed last month, but I haven't had time to
devote to it as I was launching another site. Please forward any
forum requests (or if you are willing to help manage the site) to:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
I (may be wrong) but think the site is functional enough to be
useful. This will naturally depend upon the involvement of those
interested. I wish to point out that I am not looking to replace the
list, but to augment it. Additionally I am not interested in spurring
discussions on whether or not there should be a website bulletin board
or not, but rather working towards a solution of consolidating threads
of interest, and in being able to email subscribe to those threads
that are of most interest (so if your portable device can receive html
or text messages you "should" be able to receive notifications).
I look forward to some constructive input.
Thanks,
Ralph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> At 11:05 PM 2/02/07 -0600, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>>Good work! As I said, I was just going by anecdotal evidence -- I see
>>these propane- and CNG-powered vehicles being used indoors all over the
>>place. I assumed they were relatively safe, or there would be lawsuits
>> and
>>regulations against them.
>>
>>The way the above quotations are worded, it sounds like they *may* be a
>>problem under certain circumstances. I'd guess this would be sufficiently
>>poor ventilation, and sufficiently "broken" equipment.
>
> G'day Lee, and All
>
> I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me, but:
>
> IIRC, Gas (not gasoline) powered vehicles burn up the O2 in the
> environment
> where they are, and produce mostly CO2 and some H2O and some relatively
> non-toxic (to humans) other stuff. AFAIK they don't produce CO,
The links I posted WERE about CO poisoning from burning Propane, so I'd
say that's pretty conclusive that it DOES produce CO.
Burning NG ALSO produces CO. Homes with NG heat should have CO detectors
installed in case there is a problem with the heater and it vents
combustion air into the home instead of outside.
Have you never heard of people dieing (or coming close to dieing) from
leaky heat exchangers? I hear about it on the news at least once a year.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question where the answer confuses me.
I hear about EV drivers talk about their energy usage in Watt per mile.
That a car would use about 250 watt/mile, something a little less
aerodynamic
like a Ranger would use about 300 watt/mile.
So here's my confusion. If a vehicle uses 250 watt/mile and they have a
144V pack, does that mean that they are using 1.73 Amps per mile?
Given that Power = Voltage * Current.
Or is this time thing throwing me off?
Thanks.
_________________________________________________________________
Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I left out part of the requirements.
I was talking about continuous high speed operation (I.e. long hiughway
trips).
I've already aknowledged that a series hybrid can have better efficiency
in urban/city driving that includes lots of stop and go.
In this case you can either use a tiny ICE that only needs to meet the
average power requirements, or a larger engine that is shut off
periodically.
However, the tiny engine can't handle prolonged high speed operation and
the larger engine can be more efficiency used if you bypass the double
conversions at high speed.
>
>
>>----- Original Message ----
>
>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>To: [email protected]
>
>>Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007
> 1:51:31 PM
>
>>Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>
>>...
>
>>Can anyone provide documented evidence of a series hybrid that can beat
>> any
> of the >current ICE vehicles?
>
>
>
>
>
> Proof? You want proof?! I got your proof right here.
>
>
>
>
>
> New Heavy-Duty Series Hybrid Drives from Enova
> (GreenCarCongress)
>
>
> The driver can
> switch off the generator when silent operation is preferred. In an urban
> transit or urban delivery cycle, Enovas SERIES HYBRID drive systems are
> expected to deliver 4060% in fuel savings, reduced brake maintenance
> costs,
> and significant reduction in NOx, CO,
> and PM emissions when compared with conventional internal combustion
> diesel
> powered vehicles in a similar environment. [Not a plug-in]
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/new_heavyduty_s.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Oshkosh Truck
> Unveils Series-Hybrid Refuse Vehicle (GreenCarCongress)
>
>
> We are extremely excited to introduce this remarkable
> technology to the refuse market. Our ProPulse hybrid drive system could
> significantly reduce fuel costs. During extensive customer field tests, it
> has
> shown improved fuel efficiency of 20 to 50 percent over the typical refuse
> trucks. [Series trash truck with no plug-in]
>
>
> Don Verhoff,
> Oshkosh Executive Vice President, Engineering Technology
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/11/oshkosh_truck_u.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Types of hybrid vehicle (Wikipedia)
>
>
> The advantage of a series hybrid is the lack of a mechanical
> link between the combustion engine and the wheels. The combustion engine
> runs
> at a constant and efficient rate, even as the car changes speed. During
> stop-and-go city driving, series hybrids are relatively the most
> efficient.
A
> weakness is that the power from the combustion engine has to run through
> both
> the generator and electric motor. During long-distance highway driving,
> the
> electrical transmission can be less efficient than a conventional
> transmission.
> [only over long distances, The average round-trip commute in the U.S.
> is 20 miles according to the 2000 report from the Bureau of Transportation
> Statistics and drivers rarely travel over 40 miles a day in a single day]
>
>
>
>
>
> We all have to realize that the way things are today they
> are ass backwards. Internal Combustion Engine cars are less efficient
> during
> the driving that almost all drivers do in comparison to a series hybrid
> that is
> only less efficient in the driving that we dont do but once or twice a
> year.
>
>
>
>
>
> For example, where I live the beach is where I most would
> want to go as a truly long distance trip. It is about 150 miles away. If I
> take
> my ICE car it would be just a little more efficient than taking my series
> hybrid, but my series hybrid is a plug-in hybrid. My first 40 miles are on
> electric produced for me I might add from wind through a wind power
> contract I
> have with my utility. The rest of the distance may be less efficient then
> the
> ICE, but I coast a lot when I am going down hills, I stop at places that
> have
> 110 outlets to charge up while I am eating, etc. etc. Once my batteries
> are
> over 70% I am back on electric mode not saving gas and not emitting
> anything. The
> over all use of gasoline is greatly reduced and while I am at the beach I
> am
> back to using all electric plug-in power as I do around my home near the
> city. Series
> hybrids are a better solution when coupled with a plug. Dont get me
> started on
> the Multi-Fuel Flexible Fuel Series Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle (MFFFPSHV or
> Mufpishvee) concept where the vehicle can use any variation of natural
> gas,
> liquid petroleum gas (LPG), gasoline, ethanol and electricity.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=46&blogid=192&archive=1
>
>
>
>
>
> Saying that series hybrids are bad because it isnt perfect
> for all situations is like saying that Penicillin is bad because it cant
> cure
> all diseases. We have to shy away from the strong tendency in listserv and
> comments to blogs to dominate by rhetorical skill. What we are really
> after is
> a better understanding of what is best. For us on this listserv that
> believe
> that EVs are a solution to many of our problems in terms of security (no
> dependence on foreign oil, no money funding terrorism, no ability to harm
> our
> economy through disruption of our fuel supply) in terms of environment
> (far
> less production of particulates and VOCs right where we breath, less
> pollution
> over all, less CO2 global warming gasses) in terms of piece of mind (less
> noise) the plug-in series hybrid is the next best thing. Yet it is only a
> step
> towards a day when long range EVs will be commonplace. Plug-in series
> hybrids
> are a good thing for the future of EVs.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely, Joseph Lado
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoted and re-aligned for enhance readability...
> Here are some figures from a book "Electric vehicle technology" by
James
> Larmine & John Lowry (2003). (The data is originally from Hoogers
(ed.)
> (2003) Fuel Cell Technology Handbook):
>
> NOx(g/km) Sox CO PM CO2 Energy
(MJ/km)
> Gasoline ICE 0.26 0.2 2.3 0.01 209 3.16
> Diesel ICE 0.57 0.13 0.65 0.05 154 2.36
> CNG ICE 0.1 0.01 0.05 <0.0001 158 2.74
> Battery car UK 0.54 0.74 0.09 0.05 104 1.98
> Battery car CCGT 0.17 0.06 0.08 0.0001 88.1 1.71
>
> The first battery car uses current UK electricity mix, the second one
> electricity from state-of-the-art combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT)
> generators supplied with natural gas.
>
> The CNG ICE was assumed to have the same energy use as the gasoline
vehicle,
> but with 10 % better efficiency, i.e. 16.5 %.
>
> These are well-to-wheel figures.
>
> terveisin,
> Osmo
That last column, MJ/km -- is that efficiency or energy required to make
that km?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> I've also seen studies that indicate that modern gas powered cars
>> have cleaner exhaust than the air in big cities... even when they
>> are being run in big cities. This means that under certain situations
>> their exhaust is cleaner than their intake.
>
> No; it means that the particular pollutants they are measuring happen to
> be lower in the car's exhaust than in the surround air.
>
> They're lying with statistics. Figures don't lie; but liars figure. :-)
Which was precisely my point.
>> When the exhaust fro a modern car is pretty miniscule to begin with...
>
> Think so? Try running a car engine, even a Prius engine, in a closed
> garage for a while and see how breathable the air is! Yes, the levels of
> pollution have improved so you won't die immediately (the Hemlock
> Society recommends against trying to kill yourself with it). But it's
> still horrible stuff!
And running a Propane/CNG powered vehicle in an enclosed garage would have
the same effect.
I guess it's a difference in what we consider "Much".
I.e. 0.1 gm/km is pretty small, even eliminating it entirely is a pretty
small change... at least in my opinion.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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--- Begin Message ---
Matt Kenigson wrote:
Lee... You put in disconnects between 36v segments? What kind of
disconnects? Where could I get some and do you have some advice
on putting them in?
My present EV has a 144v pack, with six 12v batteries in each of two
battery boxes. Each box has a big Anderson connector to unplug it,
breaking it into two 72v groups. The jumper between the center two
batteries in each pack has a blade-type 400amp fuse in a fuseholder.
So, by unplugging the Andersons and the fuses, I have four isolated 36v
strings.
I'm already thinking about rewiring since I just put in two new (well, to
me, anyway) batteries with different posts (screw posts instead of lead
posts) and it wasn't easy to coax my existing wiring to handle it. I
managed but it's pretty obvious that in anticipation of getting a new
pack I
need to start redesigning the battery box, the wiring, etc..
Matt
On 2/1/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Matt Kenigson wrote:
> I've actually been apprehensive about cleaning my batteries because
> I don't know how to do it safely.
On my cars with floodeds, I clean them as follows.
1. Pull the fuses or disconnects, so they are isolated. My EVs have
broken them up into units of 36v or less, so there's no shock hazard.
2. Put some detergent and baking soda in water, and use this to scrub
the tops with a plastic scrub brush. Wear rubber gloves and old
clothes*.
3. Rinse 'em off with a garden hose, to get rid of the soap and crud.
4. Smear vaseline on the terminals. This helps reduce corrosion.
That's it! Usually needs to be done every 6 months or so (or more as the
batteries get older, because they gas and fizz more).
* Battery acid dissolves cotton. If you touch an acid-wetted battery
with your hands, it will have no effect on your hands. But if you wipe
them on your cotton jeans or shirt, you'll discover little holes in them
the next time you wash them!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gas heater? Do you mean a central furnace or a small space heater?
Around here it's illegal to vent a furnace's combustion air into the home,
or even have it in a garage without proper intake and exhuast venting.
It's also a good idea to have CO detectors in the home in case of a heat
exchanger leak. I believe some areas even mandate CO detectors in homes
with gas heat.
> I'm generally clueless on this topic, but I can't help noticing that
> my gas heater as well as my oven exhausts straight into my home. Given
> that I'm not dead yet despite extensive use of said heater I can only
> presume that the exhaust of burning natural gas is very clean. So
> wouldn't a CNG powered turbine or vehicle be just as clean?
>
> -Peter
>
>
> On 2/2/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> > I've also seen studies that indicate that modern gas powered cars
>> > have cleaner exhaust than the air in big cities... even when they
>> > are being run in big cities. This means that under certain situations
>> > their exhaust is cleaner than their intake.
>>
>> No; it means that the particular pollutants they are measuring happen to
>> be lower in the car's exhaust than in the surround air.
>>
>> They're lying with statistics. Figures don't lie; but liars figure. :-)
>>
>> > When the exhaust fro a modern car is pretty miniscule to begin with...
>>
>> Think so? Try running a car engine, even a Prius engine, in a closed
>> garage for a while and see how breathable the air is! Yes, the levels of
>> pollution have improved so you won't die immediately (the Hemlock
>> Society recommends against trying to kill yourself with it). But it's
>> still horrible stuff!
>>
>> > it's hard to get "much" cleaner. On the other hand, it's relatively
>> > easy to get worse.
>>
>> I think it all depends on your definition of "much". The Prius emits
>> 1/10th the pollution of the average new car -- I would call that "much"
>> lower, even though some of the pollutants went from 1 gram to 0.1 gram
>> per X amount of time.
>>
>> > "Forklifts powered by propane, gasoline, and to a lesser degree diesel
>> > fuel, significantly contribute to carbon monoxide (CO) hazards in the
>> > workplace. Propane fuelled vehicles also emit potentially dangerous
>> > nitrogen dioxide (NO2)."
>> > http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/safety/forklifts/section-c.htm
>> >
>> > "In 1998, the Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH) and
>> > Iowa State University (ISU) Extension Department, with the
>> > assistance of local health departments, investigated a
>> > series of carbon monoxide (CO) poisonings associated with
>> > the use of liquified petroleum gas (LPG)-powered forklifts
>> > in light industry. In each episode, forklifts emitting high
>> > CO concentration levels were operated in inadequately
>> > ventilated warehouse and production facilities, which
>> > resulted in high CO accumulations."
>> > http://list.mc.duke.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9912&L=occ-env-med-l&P=14762
>> >
>> > (isn't google fun?)
>>
>> Good work! As I said, I was just going by anecdotal evidence -- I see
>> these propane- and CNG-powered vehicles being used indoors all over the
>> place. I assumed they were relatively safe, or there would be lawsuits
>> and regulations against them.
>>
>> The way the above quotations are worded, it sounds like they *may* be a
>> problem under certain circumstances. I'd guess this would be
>> sufficiently poor ventilation, and sufficiently "broken" equipment.
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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