EV Digest 6380
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV digest 6372
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Corrosion Inhibitors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Question about pot connectors for MES-DEA drive system
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 6372
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV digest
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV digest 6372
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Battery Question
by "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Unvented Propane heaters
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) wthr/mile vs speed, RE: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Miles vs speed
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Jim Husted or other motor Guru's..
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV digest 6372
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: The Series Hybrid Debate
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Jim Husted or other motor Guru's..
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Aw, come on guys, you can do pages of calculations on EVs and not for an
> ICE trailer? :)
>
> Figure the trailer adds 10% weight to the Tzero. Now the 0 to 60
> acceleration time will be about 10% slower (v = at, 10% more mass = 10%
> slower). Not figured in is the trailer tongue will weigh down the rear
> wheels a bit, regaining a little bit of the acceleration.
How did you come up with 10%? That would mean that the trailer only
weighs 230lbs. Seems a bit light for a 500CC engine, trailer, 20kw
generator head, and 70 lbs of fuel and tank. I would think it would be
closer to twice that weight, or more.
>
> 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds without the trailer
> 0 to 60 in about 3.96 seconds with the trailer
>
> If the trailer slows the Tzero by 10% it is still easily Porsche,
> Corvette, and Ferrari territory.
>
> Even if the trailer slows the Tzero by 20% (4.3 seconds now) that's still
> Porsche and Corvette (non Z06) territory.
>
> Peter, how fast does your 35 mpg Porsche do 0 to 60?
About twice that. Even refiguring to include the addition aero drag and
most likely higher weight for the trailer, the TZero would almost
certainly run circles around my 35 year old 914.
>
> Another Devil's advocate: There are Corvette Z06 owners that claim to get
> an honest 30 mpg gently driven on the highway, and can do less than 4.0
> seconds to 60.
>
> The Tzero is an incredible machine, too bad the sales price isn't a zero
> shorter! At least the Teslas is less than 1/2 the price.
>
Agreed
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm, actually they /should/ be using WH/mile I.e. Watt Hours per mile.
So yes that would imply a bit over 1.73 WH per mile. I say a bit over
because voltage sag will reduce the voltage of your 144V pack below 144V.
Also, just to add confusion. Some folks talk about WH/M and mean from the
battery pack, while others mean from the outlet. Obviously from the
outlet includes charging losses in both the charger and the battery.
> I have a question where the answer confuses me.
>
> I hear about EV drivers talk about their energy usage in Watt per mile.
> That a car would use about 250 watt/mile, something a little less
> aerodynamic
> like a Ranger would use about 300 watt/mile.
>
> So here's my confusion. If a vehicle uses 250 watt/mile and they have a
> 144V pack, does that mean that they are using 1.73 Amps per mile?
> Given that Power = Voltage * Current.
>
> Or is this time thing throwing me off?
>
> Thanks.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try running a car engine, even a Prius engine, in a closed garage
for a while and see how breathable the air is!
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
And running a Propane/CNG powered vehicle in an enclosed garage
would have the same effect.
From my own experience, a propane fork lift leaves the air FAR cleaner
than a car! I've been in a garage with both running, and would say that
the fork lift could run 10 times longer before you'd notice the air was
getting bad. Even our Prius will stink up the garage in less than 5 minutes.
This is an informal test, of course. I don't know what the levels of
pollution really were. But it does provide some indication of the
magnitude of the problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The links I posted WERE about CO poisoning from burning Propane,
so I'd say that's pretty conclusive that it DOES produce CO.
Burning NG ALSO produces CO. Homes with NG heat should have CO
detectors installed in case there is a problem with the heater
and it vents combustion air into the home instead of outside.
Have you never heard of people dieing (or coming close to dying)
from leaky heat exchangers?
Absolutely! Having designed furnace controls for Honeywell and
Robertshaw for many hears, I know they can! But, I also know that a
clean, well adjusted furnace produces very low CO levels. The problem
comes when you have a) a dirty burner that hasn't been serviced for
years, and b) a cracked heat exchanger that lets the exhaust into the house.
I suspect the same is true for propane and CNG vehicles. If they are
working properly, CO production is very low, so they are safe to operate
indoors.
I think the studies you quote are basically saying the same thing. If
you put an improperly-operating propane or CNG engine in a room with
inadequate ventilation, you *do* get CO poisoning!
The data Osmo quoted from the book supports this; a CNG ICE produces
0.05 gm/km CO, compared to 2.3 gm/km for a gasoline ICE.
Personally, I wouldn't use a gasoline or diesel generator for my EVs.
But I would use a propane or CNG (or perhaps alcohol) fuelled generator.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Plumer wrote:
I hear about EV drivers talk about their energy usage in Watt per mile.
That a car would use about 250 watt/mile, something a little less
aerodynamic like a Ranger would use about 300 watt/mile.
Almost right; it's 250-300 watt-HOURS per mile. Watts times hours
divided by miles. Or expressed in kilowatt hours (what your electric
meter uses), that 0.25-0.3 KWH/mile.
So here's my confusion. If a vehicle uses 250 watt/mile and they have a
144V pack, does that mean that they are using 1.73 Amps per mile?
Close; it uses 1.73 Amp-HOURS per mile. So if your pack holds 17.3
amphours, you can drive 10 miles.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:59:12 -0700 (MST)
>Umm, actually they /should/ be using WH/mile I.e. Watt
>Hours per mile. So yes that would imply a bit over 1.73 WH
>per mile. I say a bit over because voltage sag will reduce
>the voltage of your 144V pack below 144V.
I'm sure Peter means 1.73 amphr/mile.
We normally use wthrs/mile so the pack voltage
doesn't matter, allowing easier comparisons.
>
>Also, just to add confusion. Some folks talk about WH/M
>and mean from the battery pack, while others mean from the
>outlet. Obviously from the outlet includes charging losses
>in both the charger and the battery.
Yes a difference of 10-30% depending on charger,
battery type!!
>
>> I have a question where the answer confuses me.
>>
>> I hear about EV drivers talk about their energy usage in
>> Watt per mile. That a car would use about 250 watt/mile,
>> something a little less aerodynamic
>> like a Ranger would use about 300 watt/mile.
Wthr/mile runs from 100wthr/mile for an optimised,
lightweight, low aero drag Karman Ghia to 500wthr/mile for
a heavier 4500-5500lb EV. Very lightweight, aero EV's might
get 50 wthrs/mile.
Jerry Dycus
>>
>> So here's my confusion. If a vehicle uses 250 watt/mile
>> and they have a 144V pack, does that mean that they are
>> using 1.73 Amps per mile? Given that Power = Voltage *
>>Current.
>> Or is this time thing throwing me off?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing that's often missing from the Wh/mile discussion is how speed
affects the usage.
Folks talk about w-h/mile as if it's a constant no matter the speed.
Consequently, two identical claims of 200wh/mi may be wildly different if
one were measured at an average 50mph speed while the other was at 65mph or
40mph average.
As a slow-antique-EV owner, I'd be interested to hear of any data from
modern EVs as to w-h/mi as function of speed. I'm sure someone's already
done this analysis.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian M. Sutin wrote:
...When making cables I remove the insulation, get corrosion
inhibitor all over the end of the cable and the inside of
the connector, and then crimp it.
That works great for high pressure crimps. They have the necessary
pressure to squeeze the grease out from between the surface, and then
pressure-weld them together.
But if you are doing terminals on a lead battery post, you can't achieve
this kind of pressure -- the lead is too soft, and will cold-flow first.
So, greasing the terminal surfaces before assembly can be counter
productive, because grease remains between the surfaces and partially
insulates them.
Afterwards, if the connector supports my hanging weight, I'm done.
That's a good test for big cables.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the connections from the inverter, there's three connections for a 5K pot,
labeled:
1. REC
2. Lim. Power
3. Trottle (throttle I assume)
I know what 3. is, but what are 1. and 2.? Which one is the regen control, and
what is the other one for?
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How would you design a circuit to allow a constant number of Watts to be
available at any time from a capacitor bank?
Since the voltage is high when the capacitors are fully charged, I assume
you would want to limit the current to a lower amount than when the voltage
had dropped. As the voltage got lower, you could let more current flow so
the number of Watts would remain constant. This would (hopefully) make the
available power of the vehicle feel the same as the capacitors discharged.
Would you use a normal motor controller and have some circuit that changed
the current limit adjustment screw on the controller as a function of the
capacitor voltage? Could you use an analog circuit for this or would you
have to use a microcontroller?
Or would you go with a DC-DC adapter so the output voltage could be kept
constant? By adding the DC-DC I assume you would also add it's ~15%
efficiency loss however.
Are there better ways to do this?
Bruce
___________________________________________________________
Danny Miller wrote:
> A controller would need to be able to handle a wide voltage and current
> > range. To use some 90% of the cap's energy the voltage will vary by a
> > factor of 3.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Large space heater in a hole in the floor, I live in a small craftsman
house that's a hundred years old, I suspect the heater is too, It has
been recently inspected. I can look down through the grating and see
the open flames so that's why I presume it's venting into the house.
The oven definitly is not venting outside, which is a pain in the
California summer heat.
I've seen many heaters like this around here and I do have a CO detector.
On 2/3/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Gas heater? Do you mean a central furnace or a small space heater?
Around here it's illegal to vent a furnace's combustion air into the home,
or even have it in a garage without proper intake and exhuast venting.
It's also a good idea to have CO detectors in the home in case of a heat
exchanger leak. I believe some areas even mandate CO detectors in homes
with gas heat.
> I'm generally clueless on this topic, but I can't help noticing that
> my gas heater as well as my oven exhausts straight into my home. Given
> that I'm not dead yet despite extensive use of said heater I can only
> presume that the exhaust of burning natural gas is very clean. So
> wouldn't a CNG powered turbine or vehicle be just as clean?
>
> -Peter
>
>
> On 2/2/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> > I've also seen studies that indicate that modern gas powered cars
>> > have cleaner exhaust than the air in big cities... even when they
>> > are being run in big cities. This means that under certain situations
>> > their exhaust is cleaner than their intake.
>>
>> No; it means that the particular pollutants they are measuring happen to
>> be lower in the car's exhaust than in the surround air.
>>
>> They're lying with statistics. Figures don't lie; but liars figure. :-)
>>
>> > When the exhaust fro a modern car is pretty miniscule to begin with...
>>
>> Think so? Try running a car engine, even a Prius engine, in a closed
>> garage for a while and see how breathable the air is! Yes, the levels of
>> pollution have improved so you won't die immediately (the Hemlock
>> Society recommends against trying to kill yourself with it). But it's
>> still horrible stuff!
>>
>> > it's hard to get "much" cleaner. On the other hand, it's relatively
>> > easy to get worse.
>>
>> I think it all depends on your definition of "much". The Prius emits
>> 1/10th the pollution of the average new car -- I would call that "much"
>> lower, even though some of the pollutants went from 1 gram to 0.1 gram
>> per X amount of time.
>>
>> > "Forklifts powered by propane, gasoline, and to a lesser degree diesel
>> > fuel, significantly contribute to carbon monoxide (CO) hazards in the
>> > workplace. Propane fuelled vehicles also emit potentially dangerous
>> > nitrogen dioxide (NO2)."
>> > http://www.labour.gov.sk.ca/safety/forklifts/section-c.htm
>> >
>> > "In 1998, the Iowa Department of Public Health (IDPH) and
>> > Iowa State University (ISU) Extension Department, with the
>> > assistance of local health departments, investigated a
>> > series of carbon monoxide (CO) poisonings associated with
>> > the use of liquified petroleum gas (LPG)-powered forklifts
>> > in light industry. In each episode, forklifts emitting high
>> > CO concentration levels were operated in inadequately
>> > ventilated warehouse and production facilities, which
>> > resulted in high CO accumulations."
>> > http://list.mc.duke.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9912&L=occ-env-med-l&P=14762
>> >
>> > (isn't google fun?)
>>
>> Good work! As I said, I was just going by anecdotal evidence -- I see
>> these propane- and CNG-powered vehicles being used indoors all over the
>> place. I assumed they were relatively safe, or there would be lawsuits
>> and regulations against them.
>>
>> The way the above quotations are worded, it sounds like they *may* be a
>> problem under certain circumstances. I'd guess this would be
>> sufficiently poor ventilation, and sufficiently "broken" equipment.
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
I received 6373 just fine, but your post (because of an attachment?) caused
the following ten to be in one file?
BB
>Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:01:08 -0600
>From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
>
>
>Received EV digest 6372 and 6374.
>Am I missing postings, or does the digest skip numbers?
>Don't want to miss any of this great information!
>
>Thanks;
>Dennis
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
>* This post contains a forbidden message format *
>* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
>* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
>* If your postings display this message your mail program *
>* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
How would you design a circuit to allow a constant number of Watts to be
available at any time from a capacitor bank?
Any standard switchmode power supply already does this.
Suppose you buy a supply with a "universal" input. They typically work
from 85-265vac, which is the same as 120-370vdc. Say the output is 12v
at 12a. If you connect a 1-ohm resistor to its output, it will deliver a
constant 12v x 12a = 144 watts over the entire input voltage range,
automatically adjusting its input current as needed.
Some supplies of this sort can handle as much as a 4:1 input voltage
range. They need design changes to cover a wider range or work with
different input voltages, but the principle is the same.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I feel I should chime in on this. I have an
unvented propane "fireplace" in my small home. This
is designed to vent into the living space and has a
low oxygen sensor. I also have a CO detector. I've
run this on and off for 3 years with neither the
oxygen sensor or the CO detector going off, and with
no physical side effects. There is no way I'd sit
here with a gasoline vehicle running in my house.
Running one even for a short time in the shop can be
unpleasant.
John
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Large space heater in a hole in the floor, I live in
> a small craftsman
> house that's a hundred years old, I suspect the
> heater is too, It has
> been recently inspected. I can look down through the
> grating and see
> the open flames so that's why I presume it's venting
> into the house.
> The oven definitly is not venting outside, which is
> a pain in the
> California summer heat.
>
> I've seen many heaters like this around here and I
> do have a CO detector.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> All this hybrid, smybrid stuff? Ah Poo! Don't
> ya consider the present
> crop of hybrids (that NEVER do the claims of
> miliage, 40 or so, on a Prius,
> less when it's cold!)They are "Training Wheels" into
> REAL Electric cars,
> anyhow.
Actually if you go to any of the Prius forums you'll
see many people doing much better than that, 50-70 mpg
depending.
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me first say that I am speaking of 6 volt lead acid batteries. Can you
mix batteries in a pack? By that I mean can you have some batteries that
would be T-105's rating and some that would be T-145's rating. Let's say
the pack voltage is 120 volts and you have 20 6 volt batteries in the pack.
Can you mix this pack and get away with it or would it cause you major
problems.
Thanks, Fred
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:10 PM 3/02/07 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The links I posted WERE about CO poisoning from burning Propane, so I'd
say that's pretty conclusive that it DOES produce CO.
Burning NG ALSO produces CO. Homes with NG heat should have CO detectors
installed in case there is a problem with the heater and it vents
combustion air into the home instead of outside.
Ah, well that's what I get for only starting to follow a thread half-way
through (smack me)
Have you never heard of people dieing (or coming close to dieing) from
leaky heat exchangers? I hear about it on the news at least once a year.
Wrong State/continent. Here in Tasmania, Australia gas is not that popular
form of heating, and a lot of gas heaters here are flued to outside. Here
the use of gas was high, fell off as the coal gas "town gas" fell from
favour, and now is increasing, as the new natural gas infrastructure is run
out. They recently put a pipe under Bass Straigt to bring natural gas here.
Heating here is most popularly wood, electric or electric heat pump, then
down the list comes heating oil, then a scattering of othet types such as
sawdust heaters or pellet heaters. I don't know of anyone using coal or
anthracite/coke etc for heating here.
People dieing from their heating here burn their house down from unattended
open fires, radiant heaters too close to the furniture, etc.
What I don't like about gas and vehicles is that of the number of car
accidents in the news where the vehicle burns, there is a disproportionate
percentage of "exploded into an inferno" from LPG fitted vehicles (although
that may be excited journalists).
Can we get back to EVs now?
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some time ago Lee Hart described how to wire a momentary voltage doubler to
enable the use of a 24V contactor in a 12 volt system. You use a DPDT switch
or relay to, in the "normal" position, charge up a capacitor, then when the
switch or relay is activated, the wiring is routed in series through the
capacitor and then to the contactor, giving a brief pulse of 24V to close the
contacts, then tapering back to 12V as the capacitor discharges. 12V may not
be enough to make the contacts on a 24V contactor close when they're open, but
it is enough to keep them closed afterwards..
I liked the circuit because of its simplicity, the built-in "coil economizer"
effect of having the voltage decline naturally shortly after contact is made --
and the fact that I picked up several beefy 24V contactors. So I built one,
and it works. But the original archived post says: "Once the capacitor
discharges, a diode applies the 12v continuously to hold it in." The one I
built works fine without the diode, and I'm having trouble figuring out why I
need it and exactly where it goes. I'm assuming that the capacitor allows the
battery current to flow through it - do I need a diode in parallel with it?.
Is that a problem? Lee? Anyone?
---------------------------------
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
xx xx wrote:
I have an unvented propane "fireplace" in my small home. This
is designed to vent into the living space and has a
low oxygen sensor. I also have a CO detector. I've
run this on and off for 3 years with neither the
oxygen sensor or the CO detector going off, and with
no physical side effects.
I use a 'Mr. Heater Portable Buddy' propane heater to heat my
garage/workshop.
It has a low oxygen cut-off. But I do not like the odor it leaves behind.
Have you noticed this?
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Myles and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 12:17:59 -0800
>One thing that's often missing from the Wh/mile discussion
>is how speed affects the usage.
>Folks talk about w-h/mile as if it's a constant no matter
>the speed. Consequently, two identical claims of 200wh/mi
>may be wildly different if one were measured at an average
>50mph speed while the other was at 65mph or 40mph average.
Great point. While us old timers know that, many
newbies may not.
>
>As a slow-antique-EV owner, I'd be interested to hear of
>any data from modern EVs as to w-h/mi as function of speed.
> I'm sure someone's already done this analysis.
A way to look at this is most golf carts get 60-100
mile range at their low speeds!!
Most of the very early EV's were very light built of
high quality wood coupled to the fact the roads would let
them go fast meant they had very good range.
The calculations for the Freedom EV supplied by EVA
says it should get 60 wthrs/mile at 35 mph and 130 wthr/mile
at 70 mph so it's about a 2-1 range difference.
As you know when the batteries are lightly loaded by
going slow, not only can you get better wthrs/mile, but the
batts put out more wthrs too vs a heavier loaded pack a
higher speed would give.
So at 35 mph my 12 t-105's is in the best possible
case, steady speed, level able to go, assuming I can get
12kw from my pack, about 200 miles. Of course one could
never do that but it means you have real good range.
Now take going at 70 mph at 130wthrs/mile, now you're
pumping out amps so you only get about 140 amphrs, 10kw out
of the pack so barely able to make 70 mile range. The
difference is mostly aero drag so lowering it pays very
well. Most EV's will have worse aero.
The Freedom EV is a 1300lb aero 3wheeler so most
others will be much higher wthrs/mile. But it should scale,
if an aero 2600 lb EV, you should be able to do it in under
twice the wthr/mile. One Karman Ghia EV does 100wthrs/mile.
Jerry Dycus
>
>-Myles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I counted 13 stop-lights on my twice a day commute. I usually make more
than half of them on the green.
My maximum speed is 35 mph, and I try to balance my speed vs. making the
green.
I can take the freeway and avoid all 13 signals, and travel at 60 mph.
I have yet to figure out which is best, as I have no e-meter to help.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV 1981 Jet Electrica formerly owned by the U.S. Navy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim:
After 1000 KM on my big brawny 700 watt Yonkang Crown scoot, I opened up the
hubmotor:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822e.jpg
and found that my PC-7 magnet repair was holding fine. I found very
light accumulations of comm dust. However, there is an odd wear pattern
on the comm:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822c.jpg
Any opinions?
Also it looks like I snagged the rotor laminations at some point when
pulling the stator:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822f.jpg
My plan is to put a drop of superglue in the laminations, and squeeze them
back together. Does this make sense?
Thanks all...
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more on your
Live.com page.
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:13 PM 2/2/2007, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
I'm generally clueless on this topic, but I can't help noticing that
my gas heater as well as my oven exhausts straight into my home. Given
that I'm not dead yet despite extensive use of said heater I can only
presume that the exhaust of burning natural gas is very clean. So
wouldn't a CNG powered turbine or vehicle be just as clean?
Stoves don't run enough to cause problems. (Except during long power
failures, where there is always somebody that tries to heat their
modern well-sealed house with the stove - and ends up killing themself.)
Your gas Heater vents into the house? It has NO chimney at all?
This is highly unusual. While there ARE unvented gas heaters, they
are generally only for use in well-ventilated places. If one
supplies the heat for your house, you have a very "leaky" house which
wastes gobs of energy.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
It was said before:
The EV is not the right tool for everyone, there are certain
circumstances under which it will not be the most optimal way
of transport, so it may only fulfill the needs of 90% of the people.
Now, in all honesty, which percentage of your trips is continuous
high-speed freeway travel?
Moreover, how often do you stop during such a "continuous" journey?
Every rest stop and certainly the first half hour of the trip can
be electric-only, if you are able to quickly recharge, then every
stop along the way becomes an opportunity to do another half hour
electric-only.
Even if the series hybrid is 10% less efficient than a gasoline
engine directly coupled to the wheels, the fact that the first
half hour is certainly electric-only will make the balance tip
over towards the gas car after another 5 full hours continuous
driving.
I don't know about you, but I cannot manage 5 hours without a
single stop - restroom breaks, food breaks, refresher naps,
I usually stop every 2 to 3 hours. So I will never be able
>in practice< to make a gas car exceed the mileage of a series
hybrid which has slightly worse efficiency.
Now factor in the fact that you hardly ever go on a road trip
like that, compared to the many around-town and commute trips,
plus the fact that most road trips hit a slower traffic situation
like crossing a town and standing still in front of traffic lights
then you see why I am not concerned about the theoretical efficiency
loss in a series hybrid and see this as the last and currently best
stop for most people, before switching to full EVs when electricity
storage has improved to a point of a full recharge in 5 minutes and
a continuous 3 hours freeway range from a single recharge.
I think this will be possible in prototypes on the road before the
end of this decade, so will see some change during the pivotal
years around 2010.
Time will tell.
(Note that a series hybrid upgrade to full EV only means not
fueling the genset any more. That will be automatic for anyone
who owns a series hybrid and finds themselves only making short
trips, as data suggestes, while plugging in everywhere)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 11:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: The Series Hybrid Debate
Sorry, I left out part of the requirements.
I was talking about continuous high speed operation (I.e. long hiughway
trips).
I've already aknowledged that a series hybrid can have better efficiency
in urban/city driving that includes lots of stop and go.
In this case you can either use a tiny ICE that only needs to meet the
average power requirements, or a larger engine that is shut off
periodically.
However, the tiny engine can't handle prolonged high speed operation and
the larger engine can be more efficiency used if you bypass the double
conversions at high speed.
>
>
>>----- Original Message ----
>
>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>To: [email protected]
>
>>Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007
> 1:51:31 PM
>
>>Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>
>>...
>
>>Can anyone provide documented evidence of a series hybrid that can beat
>> any
> of the >current ICE vehicles?
>
>
>
>
>
> Proof? You want proof?! I got your proof right here.
>
>
>
>
>
> New Heavy-Duty Series Hybrid Drives from Enova
> (GreenCarCongress)
>
>
> "The driver can
> switch off the generator when silent operation is preferred. In an urban
> transit or urban delivery cycle, Enova's SERIES HYBRID drive systems are
> expected to deliver 40-60% in fuel savings, reduced brake maintenance
> costs,
> and significant reduction in NOx, CO,
> and PM emissions when compared with conventional internal combustion
> diesel
> powered vehicles in a similar environment." [Not a plug-in]
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/10/new_heavyduty_s.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Oshkosh Truck
> Unveils Series-Hybrid Refuse Vehicle (GreenCarCongress)
>
>
> "We are extremely excited to introduce this remarkable
> technology to the refuse market. Our ProPulse hybrid drive system could
> significantly reduce fuel costs. During extensive customer field tests, it
> has
> shown improved fuel efficiency of 20 to 50 percent over the typical refuse
> trucks." [Series trash truck with no plug-in]
>
>
> -Don Verhoff,
> Oshkosh Executive Vice President, Engineering Technology
>
>
> http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/11/oshkosh_truck_u.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Types of hybrid vehicle (Wikipedia)
>
>
> The advantage of a series hybrid is the lack of a mechanical
> link between the combustion engine and the wheels. The combustion engine
> runs
> at a constant and efficient rate, even as the car changes speed. During
> stop-and-go city driving, series hybrids are relatively the most
> efficient. ... A
> weakness is that the power from the combustion engine has to run through
> both
> the generator and electric motor. During long-distance highway driving,
> the
> electrical transmission can be less efficient than a conventional
> transmission.
> [only over long distances, The average round-trip commute in the U.S.
> is 20 miles according to the 2000 report from the Bureau of Transportation
> Statistics and drivers rarely travel over 40 miles a day in a single day]
>
>
>
>
>
> We all have to realize that the way things are today they
> are ass backwards. Internal Combustion Engine cars are less efficient
> during
> the driving that almost all drivers do in comparison to a series hybrid
> that is
> only less efficient in the driving that we don't do but once or twice a
> year.
>
>
>
>
>
> For example, where I live the beach is where I most would
> want to go as a truly long distance trip. It is about 150 miles away. If I
> take
> my ICE car it would be just a little more efficient than taking my series
> hybrid, but my series hybrid is a plug-in hybrid. My first 40 miles are on
> electric produced for me I might add from wind through a wind power
> contract I
> have with my utility. The rest of the distance may be less efficient then
> the
> ICE, but I coast a lot when I am going down hills, I stop at places that
> have
> 110 outlets to charge up while I am eating, etc. etc. Once my batteries
> are
> over 70% I am back on electric mode not saving gas and not emitting
> anything. The
> over all use of gasoline is greatly reduced and while I am at the beach I
> am
> back to using all electric plug-in power as I do around my home near the
> city. Series
> hybrids are a better solution when coupled with a plug. Don't get me
> started on
> the Multi-Fuel Flexible Fuel Series Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle (MFFFPSHV or
> Mufpishvee) concept where the vehicle can use any variation of natural
> gas,
> liquid petroleum gas (LPG), gasoline, ethanol and electricity.
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=46&blogid=192
&archive=1
>
>
>
>
>
> Saying that series hybrids are bad because it isn't perfect
> for all situations is like saying that Penicillin is bad because it can't
> cure
> all diseases. We have to shy away from the strong tendency in listserv and
> comments to blogs to dominate by rhetorical skill. What we are really
> after is
> a better understanding of what is best. For us on this listserv that
> believe
> that EVs are a solution to many of our problems in terms of security (no
> dependence on foreign oil, no money funding terrorism, no ability to harm
> our
> economy through disruption of our fuel supply) in terms of environment
> (far
> less production of particulates and VOCs right where we breath, less
> pollution
> over all, less CO2 global warming gasses) in terms of piece of mind (less
> noise) the plug-in series hybrid is the next best thing. Yet it is only a
> step
> towards a day when long range EVs will be commonplace. Plug-in series
> hybrids
> are a good thing for the future of EVs.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely, Joseph Lado
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mark
Well you have clear signs of an overload. Anytime you
see that defined brush sized shadow mark on just half
the bar it's a sign of overload. Not sure what you
can do but diet, lmao. Changing gear ratios would
help if possible. Avoiding upgrades will also add
some life to the motor. As to the laminations tap
them straight again with a flat head screwdriver and
call it good. I don't want to admit how many times
I've done that in 25 years hehe.
On a positive note I don't see any signs of heat.
One last thought would be to make sure you're not
running down the batt's which could contribute to this
effect. It will eventually get worse and wear the
brushes prematurely which you've seen with the dust
that has already shown itself.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Mark Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim:
>
> After 1000 KM on my big brawny 700 watt Yonkang
> Crown scoot, I opened up the
> hubmotor:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822e.jpg
>
> and found that my PC-7 magnet repair was holding
> fine. I found very
> light accumulations of comm dust. However, there is
> an odd wear pattern
> on the comm:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822c.jpg
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Also it looks like I snagged the rotor laminations
> at some point when
> pulling the stator:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822f.jpg
>
> My plan is to put a drop of superglue in the
> laminations, and squeeze them
> back together. Does this make sense?
>
> Thanks all...
> Mark
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos,
> recipes and more on your
> Live.com page.
>
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was planning on splitting my 144 v pack (roughly) in half and have
not had much luck finding a single pole (is that what it is called
when there os only one conductor?) anderson connector (or the
equivalent).
Is there any reason not to use one of the standard two conductor
anderson connector housing with one conductor? Other than the
automatic nature of a circuit breaker are there any advantages or
disadvantages to using a circuit breaker rather than an anderson (or
like type) connecter in this application?
On a related note, with my current battery layout, this disconnect
would be between batteries 13 and 14 in my 24 battery series (rather
than 12 and 13 that would split into 2 71 volt packs), is there any
reason I should rework my layout so the disconnect is between 12 and 13?
As an aside, I also have the fusaeble links that electro auto
recommends and sells connecting batteries 6 and 7 and 18 and 19.
On Feb 3, 2007, at 11:45 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Matt Kenigson wrote:
Lee... You put in disconnects between 36v segments? What kind of
disconnects? Where could I get some and do you have some advice
on putting them in?
My present EV has a 144v pack, with six 12v batteries in each of
two battery boxes. Each box has a big Anderson connector to unplug
it, breaking it into two 72v groups. The jumper between the center
two batteries in each pack has a blade-type 400amp fuse in a
fuseholder.
So, by unplugging the Andersons and the fuses, I have four isolated
36v strings.
I'm already thinking about rewiring since I just put in two new
(well, to
me, anyway) batteries with different posts (screw posts instead of
lead
posts) and it wasn't easy to coax my existing wiring to handle it. I
managed but it's pretty obvious that in anticipation of getting a
new pack I
need to start redesigning the battery box, the wiring, etc..
Matt
On 2/1/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Matt Kenigson wrote:
> I've actually been apprehensive about cleaning my batteries
because
> I don't know how to do it safely.
On my cars with floodeds, I clean them as follows.
1. Pull the fuses or disconnects, so they are isolated. My EVs have
broken them up into units of 36v or less, so there's no shock
hazard.
2. Put some detergent and baking soda in water, and use this to
scrub
the tops with a plastic scrub brush. Wear rubber gloves and old
clothes*.
3. Rinse 'em off with a garden hose, to get rid of the soap and
crud.
4. Smear vaseline on the terminals. This helps reduce corrosion.
That's it! Usually needs to be done every 6 months or so (or more
as the
batteries get older, because they gas and fizz more).
* Battery acid dissolves cotton. If you touch an acid-wetted battery
with your hands, it will have no effect on your hands. But if you
wipe
them on your cotton jeans or shirt, you'll discover little holes
in them
the next time you wash them!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
