EV Digest 6407
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) BB600 NiCd charger for 12-24 volts?
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Soneil Chargers
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What do people know about Zapi components?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Lead acid golf cart batteries, GC2 size
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Zeroshift - an Automated Manual Transmission
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric Cars are for Girls
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Newbie: looking for information to get started ...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Lead acid golf cart batteries, GC2 size
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hi all
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Ni-cads for Re: Newbie: looking for information, Dodge Neon ICE--->EV
conversion - LONG
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Chicago Sightseeing. WAS: Re: Busses, trains and Automobiles........ More!
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Newbie: looking for information to get started on a Dodge Neon
ICE--->EV conversion - LONG
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM
batts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lead acid golf cart batteries, GC2 size
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM
batts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM
batts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: back in motion
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lee,
Some pipes have a internal weld bead and they may not slide on tight. I was
just at my machine shop and pick up a seamless tubing that many of these
shops stock. These tubes should be able to fit you shafts like a glove.
They are normally size about 0.002 over or under for a good fit.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Lee,
> >
> > It is better and easier to make up the tubular axles... Just cut the
> > tubes to the correct length, and you can get U-joints that slide in
> > tight. Just weld them up and 99.9 percent of the time, they do not
> > need any balancing if you have a nice smooth weld bead.
>
> These T'bird axles have CV universal joints, which don't provide a
> convenient place to weld on a large diameter pipe. So, we will probably
> cut the solid axles, and slide a piece of heavy-walled pipe over the cut
> ends, and weld them in place.
>
> We can buy replacement racing axles, but they are about $300 each. We'll
> try the above approach first, and see how it works. But it's good to
> know there's a better route if needed.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:44:44 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>I need a charger for a 12 V AGM batt (Deka Group 24) that is isolated.
>Trouble is, most of the stuff I have found is non-isolated. So, using it and
>another charger when you have a common ground is a very bad idea ...
>
Schumacher Speedchargers at Walmart, or
http://www.schumacherproducts.com/products
I paid $45 for a 12/8/2 amp charger. I called tech support and they
are isolated.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I first posted this on Evtech I see there are quite a few bb600 users on the list
these chargers come up from time to time .
Hi Guys,
I just saw a real NiCad charger on www.gsaauctions.gov Good professionally
run site, search "battery charger" one will pop up in KS. It is new and
this in more than a reflex charger it also loads and cycles the 24 volt
batteries. This type of unit is what the military uses to analyze the
same bb600 cells in aircraft batteries. it is at $269 now with 4
bidders closes on 2/15. As you will notice the closing times are
variable it closes when there are no bids for a set time like 10 min or
so. This is something I wish Ebay would do, and eliminate the whole
kiddie sniping game, I buy quite a few things here including two EVs so
far. I won't put up with the pseudo auctions on ebay it is more like a
lottery. Bill Brinsmead
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have noticed that with my Soneil it charges at around 13.8 to 14.4 on this
cycle. If I use regulators it drops way down and it screwes up the
algorythm. I have also noticed the starting voltage is higher than
finishing voltage. Another reason I can't use regulators with the Soneil.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Soneil Chargers
> On 10 Feb 2007 at 21:57, Darryl McMahon wrote:
>
> > The chargers do shut off, and then monitor the battery voltage. When
> > the voltage sinks down to a set-point (for example, on the 1212SR, it is
13.8
> > volts). When the battery drops to this voltage, the charger turns on
again
> > until the battery reaches 14.4 volts.
>
> I wouldn't call this "shutting off." This sounds like the behavior of the
> inexpensive cycle-dropping chargers you get at the auto stores. Such a
> charger should not be left connected to the battery.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Feb 2007 at 8:16, nikki wrote:
> The idea behind using creep is to make the city el
> drive more like a regular automatic.
It's up to you, but I view this as one of the failings of ICEs, and I would
never attempt to simulate it. I've always been sad that Toyota felt so
compelled when designing the Prius, but I realize they built it for people
who are fearful at any little change and difference, and wanted to make it
as familiar and comfortable as possible for these people. I definitely
don't think you're such a person!
I find ICE automatic transmission creep annoying. Having absolute control
over acceleration is one of the things I love about EVs. With a well
designed motor/controller pair you can move the car forward almost by
millimeters, using only the accelerator pedal.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, that's them. They are made by Exide (or were) I have 12 of them
running my golf cart and my Elec-Trak I-5. No problems with them, they
have been very dependable.
James
On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 12:24 -0500, David Roden wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2007 at 20:27, Rod Hower wrote:
>
> > I just stopped by Sam's Club today and noticed
> > a pretty good sized golf cart battery priced at $61.
> > Seems like a good deal?
> >
>
> Aren't these the batteries that cost $45 a few years ago?
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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>
--
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another possible tranny that sound perfect for an EV.
http://www.zeroshift.com/index.htm
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6807/
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tesla charge interface is a industrial pin and socket 3 pin connector
that is rated for heavy service in very tough locations. It's a 70 plus amp
3 pin .
I have a 100 amp 4 pin and socket for the 75Kw monster charger. Spendy and
massive.
The three pin is smaller but still has serious contacts.
Very much like the Leviton 3100P7W. This is rated at 100 amps and the
product line goes down to 125 volts and 20 amps. The next smaller is a 60
amp part.
I remember somebody saying the Tesla interface was 78 amps... or something
off a solid number.
But.. I would have no problems using 60 amp 360P7W The three voltage classes
are 125, 250 and 480. All are not interchangeable and cannot be inserted
into each other.
What Tesla has done is..ignored NEC 625 for the foolish attempt to lock
everyone out except GM , then accepted a previous heavy metal interface that
is Years if not decades old rated for 480 volts in wet abusive
environments. This connector is a standard used in industrial welders other
heavy construction site power feeds.
It's more than I would use, But that's the point . Nobody can say it's under
rated , and untested.
I had the actual IPC spec from Rick Woodburry of Tango fame, But it's clear,
If you want that plug on the end of a PFC50.. I will make it happen.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
> >> Has anyone else noticed that the charge port on the Tesla is not one
> >> of the two NEC Article 625 approved choices?
>
> From: Ralph Merwin
> >So they appear to have another system that meets the requirements.
>
> They have enough money that I would think it likely that they are just
going to do what GM, Ford, et. al. did -- ignore what went before, invent
their own, and seek to make it the "standard".
> --
> The thing I like about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 5377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The EAA (Electric Auto Association http://eaaev.org ) has been
around for a long time (formed in 1967 in San Jose, CA).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Auto_Association
Many men and women have been active with EVs long before the
beginings of Internet Web pages (circa mid-1990's).
Before there was a http://NEDRA.com , there were EV racers
racing their hearts out for the EV cause. It is a shame that
most of these EV activities were documented on paper and not
the Interent for all to see.
One of many EV Racing teams was the "Women's Electric Racing
and Education International Team" (WE'RE IT!).
Here are a few web links of pre-2000 EV racing:
WE'RE-IT
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~rcy/web_images/WEREIT_APS500_93.GIF
http://www.allaire.org/apev.htm
Clare Bell
http://evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=437
Clare's 914 EV
http://www.armory.com/~lrc/evrace.html
Sandy Kapteyn
http://ev1-club.power.net/newsltr/vol1_8.htm#article4
...
Kitty Rodden
Kitty's 914 EV
http://sloan.stanford.edu/evonline/evaosc/9406/page4.htm
President / CEO Founder of Battery MD and Blue Sky motors
http://sloan.stanford.edu/EVonline/evaosc/9310/page3.htm
http://www.batterymd.com/index_files/Page349.htm
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geuoh8nNBF97AAuAJXNyoA?p=%22blue+sky+motors%22+%22Kitty+Rodden%22
...
Some old EV Racing links
http://www.cet.nau.edu/~formulaclub/img_people.html
http://www.nd.edu/~ndracing/gallery/phoenix96.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3280088415229900552&q=Phoenix+Raceway
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
I apologize to the list for sending a private message publicly, but
regrettably Michael Werth is using a mail filtering service which requires
me to add my name to a "whitelist" in order to contact him directly. I
won't do this for several reasons. Therefore I'll have to communicate with
him in public.
Below is the message which I attempted to send.
= = = = =
Michael,
Welcome to the EVDL! I have a request, however - to comply with our
standards, please set your mail program to send only plain text, never html.
Also, the list processor will strip off attachments. If you want to share a
binary file, please post it on the web or on a file sharing service.
These are security measures to keep malware from spreading, and I appreciate
your understanding in working with them.
Finally, may I suggest that you limit your subject line to a few words so
that it will be entirely visible. Many mail programs truncate long
subjects, particularly in the index view.
Thanks!
David Roden
EV List Administrator
= = = = =
I will also add this to the above : several other people on this list don't
appreciate antispam whitelists. If you're concerned about spam, please
don't use your regular email address for the EV list. Obtain an address at
one of the ad-supported webmail services such as Yahoo or Gmail and use that
for your EVDL mail.
One of the problems with the EVDL is that there are many unofficial
archives, and I'm not at all sure that all of them obfuscate email
addresses. Thus you may indeed receive spam if you post here. Hence the
suggestion of a disposable address. Yahoo and Gmail also have surprisingly
good spam filtering.
My antispam soution, in case anyone is interested, is different from the
above. I use mail forwarders connected with a commercial web hosting
service. I create two email addresses for each list of which I'm a member,
a read-only address and a write-only address. I set nomail for the write-
only address, so no list mail is ever sent there. This write-only address
is the one which I use for posting, so it appears in my posts (headers
above). The spambots may find it in the EVDL archives on the web, but that
doesn't matter. Mail sent to that address is always discarded (forwarded to
the bit bucket). Thus I never get any spam from that source.
I don't publish the read-only address. ;-)
Sorry to seem so fussy, Michael. Appearances to the contrary, you really
are welcome here! ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
The $45 batteries had a Sam's club label. These have an excide label.
I don't remember what the amp hours were on the $45 batteries. They
appear to be the same physical size. I couldn't find any information on
the internal specs, e.g. plate thickness.
> Stephen Paschke
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lead acid golf cart batteries, GC2 size
On 10 Feb 2007 at 20:27, Rod Hower wrote:
> I just stopped by Sam's Club today and noticed
> a pretty good sized golf cart battery priced at $61.
> Seems like a good deal?
>
Aren't these the batteries that cost $45 a few years ago?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Feb 2007 at 21:50, sushrut patgaonkar wrote:
> Instead of converting cars to electrics we should convert
> politicians to green thinking.
This may strike some as a laudable goal, others as a waste of time, some as
undesirable. Discussing politics often causes controversy on the EVDL, and
doesn't lead to any real progress or enlightenment.
The EVDL's charter says it is "intended to provide a forum to discuss the
current state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles. It is
not intended to discuss either EV appropriateness or comparisons with other
transportation primary drive modes such as the venerable internal combustion
engine. Those discussions are best relegated to the appropriate usenet
newsgroup."
The EVDL has evolved into a largely technical resource for EV hobbyists.
Our goal is to make list members into EV converters and owners.
Please limit discussion of political matters on the EV list. Those
interested in discussing politics are invited to email sushrut patgaonkar
directly.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Newbie: looking for information to get started
on a Dodge Neon ICE--->EV conversion - LONG
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:47:08 -0700 (MST)
>> On 11 Feb 2007 at 14:43, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>> EV size NiCad batteries are available, but they cost
>>> about $15,000-$20,000 for
>>> a pack plus at least another $2,000 (probably more) for
>>> an acceptable charger.
The charger can be an inexpensive dumb one which is
controlled, turned off by an E meter, thus well under $1k.
And can be recharged as fast as you can discharge them so 1
hr is easily possible to 105% if one has a charger that can
put that out. For the mentioned pack that's 14kw!
>>
>> Not quite that bad. Safts are now about $850-900/kWh. A
>> 144v, 100+ah pack
>> will set you back a little $13k. They are still about
>> the most practical advanced batteries you can buy -
>>indeed almost the ONLY.
>
>THanks, Dave, I havent done the math in a while.
Sadly due to the dollar's drop of 50% vs the Euro
has increased their price that much. It use to be $550/kwhr.
>
>Can they sustain >=1C discharge? I do remember that if you
>go over their sustained limit they die quickly, but I can't
>remember what the limit was (1C, 2C?)
They are good for 250 amps peak and should do 2C cont
without problems for the 100 amphr version AFAIR.
Ni-cads vary a lot depending on how they are made and
by whom so one must check for each model. SAFT high outputs
models do 800 amps like their BB600's versions.
Jerry Dycus
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to be in Chicago on March 9 and 10 for a technical meeting
on the 10th. I may stay until the 11th (my birthday) if there's
something fun to go see. What EV-related goodies can I visit while
I'm in Chicago, and do I need to rent a car (no doubt it'll be an ICE)
to go see said goodies?
Matt
On 2/9/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yea, Were everywhere. Funny you should mention Little Joe The Illinios railway
museum has been buying used assets from the Chicago area for quite a few years.
They have the old South shore and South Bend #803 listed on their roster. Take
a look at their website it even has a couple of web cams. You won't see much
though the museum is closed until April. The only activity is in the rebuild
shops. Years ago I used to spend a little time in the steam shop. I even have a
couple of photo credits on the web page. They run the electric busses all
summer which is easy enough since the whole place is laced with overhead wires.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Must be a new kit it's not on their website yet.
Randy doesn't do website updates himself so the site is often out of
date. Best bet is always to call or email him with specific questions
as he carries lots of stuff not listed on the website.
> I'd guess it would probably have similar specs to the Toyota Echo
> they converted though. The listed specs on that one doesn't come
> anywhere near the stated goals though.
Perhaps you missed that the Echo was a 96V car running flooded 8V
batteries through a 4-speed automatic? The Neon is a 144V car, though I
don't recall if it is manual or not.
At any rate, as I mentioned, it seems to me that the most important
requirement for the original poster is that there be a kit available to
do the conversion. Randy/CEV offer a kit. Kits don't include
batteries, and so the range/performance of the finished vehicle will
vary depending on what the builder chooses to install. It is entirely
possible that the stated performance goals were WAGs of what should be
possible/reasonable or at least that there might be considerable leeway
on them. If meeting those goals is crucial to the project moving
forward, then the original poster must either find a way to obtain
suitable batteries or choose a different vehicle, or both.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I need a charger for a 12 V AGM batt (Deka Group 24) that is isolated.
> Trouble is, most of the stuff I have found is non-isolated.
Actually, all normal consumer 12v battery chargers are isolated. You can't get
it UL listed if it isn't. And since car electrical systems are always grounded,
you couldn't use a non-isolated charger off the AC line to charge them.
Or, did you mean something different by "isolated"?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Roland Wiench
>Hello Lee,
>
>Some pipes have a internal weld bead and they may not slide on tight. I was
>just at my machine shop and pick up a seamless tubing that many of these
>shops stock. These tubes should be able to fit you shafts like a glove.
>They are normally size about 0.002 over or under for a good fit.
Thanks, Roland. I'm expecting we'll have to machine the outside of the axles to
be perfectly round. The tubing will be thick walled; probably something like
1/4". Given the way these things usually go, we'll probably have to accept a
tube that's too small and machine it out to match whatever the axles require.
The fun comes in welding them together so it won't break at the welds. A 9"
motor, Zilla controller, and 5.14:1 rear end will be able to make some serious
torque! We may need to depend on skinny tires to spin so it won't break
something. Present plan is to use 24" dia. 14" wheels from the Toyota Prius
(175/65R14, Bridgestone Potenza RE92, extra load rating, low rolling
resistance).
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> I just stopped by Sam's Club today and noticed
>> a pretty good sized golf cart battery priced at $61.
>> Seems like a good deal?
> Aren't these the batteries that cost $45 a few years ago?
Yep... and $39 a few years before that.
Sam's Club seems to buy mostly Exide batteries, but sometimes has other brands
when they happen to be cheaper. They aren't as good as Trojans or US Battery,
but are still adequate for EV use.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Have you considered epoxy bonding the tubular axles to
the sleeved joints Roland was talking about (or even
brazing) rather than welding?
1000rpm is nearly 2e8 cycles after 9 years at 1 hour
per day.
Doesn't take a huge stress to cause fatigue cracks
with this number of cycles, especially if the weld has
defects, which is likely.
Also I guess you will want to design to minimum weight
which tends to mean high stress, high stress and 2e8
cycles next to a weld is likely to crack.
High stress and 2e8 cycles next to a bonded or brazed
connection is much less likely to crack.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Roland Wiench
> >Hello Lee,
> >
> >Some pipes have a internal weld bead and they may
> not slide on tight. I was
> >just at my machine shop and pick up a seamless
> tubing that many of these
> >shops stock. These tubes should be able to fit you
> shafts like a glove.
> >They are normally size about 0.002 over or under
> for a good fit.
>
> Thanks, Roland. I'm expecting we'll have to machine
> the outside of the axles to be perfectly round. The
> tubing will be thick walled; probably something like
> 1/4". Given the way these things usually go, we'll
> probably have to accept a tube that's too small and
> machine it out to match whatever the axles require.
>
> The fun comes in welding them together so it won't
> break at the welds. A 9" motor, Zilla controller,
> and 5.14:1 rear end will be able to make some
> serious torque! We may need to depend on skinny
> tires to spin so it won't break something. Present
> plan is to use 24" dia. 14" wheels from the Toyota
> Prius (175/65R14, Bridgestone Potenza RE92, extra
> load rating, low rolling resistance).
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: thomas ward
>Lee,
>Have you considered epoxy bonding the tubular axles to
>the sleeved joints Roland was talking about (or even
>brazing) rather than welding?
It's interesting that you mentioned that! I just read a paper on Amory Lovins'
"Revolution" SUV. It's intended to be a physical realization of the hypercar
concept he's been promoting for many years (how to build ultralight,
ultrastrong, ultraefficient cars).
The "Revolution" uses carbon fiber composite half shafts. They epoxy bond the
metal ends with the CV joints onto a carbon fiber tube. Now, I doubt they've
tested this in real life (the "Revolution" is just a show car). But then I
found that race cars have successfully used this same technique to make
suspension arms and other high stress parts.
This could be an ideal opportunity to try it. The stress on the axle is pure
torque; no suspension loading or flexing. No transmission, clutch or flywheel;
so shock loads should be low. Welding concentrates all the load in one small
area. Bonding spreads the load over a very large area. Even if the epoxy bond
is 1/10th the strength of a weld, it has far more than 10 times the area.
Plus, bonding does not require heating the axle, altering its heat treatment.
Brazing has many of the same advantages, but does require heating (though to
lower temperatures than welding).
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can buy carbon fiber driveshafts today, I have a friend with one on his 500
hp car.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:40:35 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
...
The "Revolution" uses carbon fiber composite half shafts. They epoxy bond the
metal ends with the CV joints onto a carbon fiber tube. Now, I doubt they've
tested this in real life (the "Revolution" is just a show car). But then I
found that race cars have successfully used this same technique to make
suspension arms and other high stress parts.
This could be an ideal opportunity to try it. The stress on the axle is pure
torque; no suspension loading or flexing. No transmission, clutch or flywheel;
so shock loads should be low. Welding concentrates all the load in one small
area. Bonding spreads the load over a very large area. Even if the epoxy bond
is 1/10th the strength of a weld, it has far more than 10 times the area.
Plus, bonding does not require heating the axle, altering its heat treatment.
Brazing has many of the same advantages, but does require heating (though to
lower temperatures than welding).
...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think all the pro stocks use them.
But really the expense is rather high relative to the gain, a cubic
dollars kind of part.
I don't see welding the shafts as a problem, but a way to avoid it is to
spline them and use a coupler.
jack
David Dymaxion wrote:
You can buy carbon fiber driveshafts today, I have a friend with one on his 500
hp car.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:40:35 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
...
The "Revolution" uses carbon fiber composite half shafts. They epoxy bond the metal ends
with the CV joints onto a carbon fiber tube. Now, I doubt they've tested this in real life (the
"Revolution" is just a show car). But then I found that race cars have successfully used
this same technique to make suspension arms and other high stress parts.
This could be an ideal opportunity to try it. The stress on the axle is pure
torque; no suspension loading or flexing. No transmission, clutch or flywheel;
so shock loads should be low. Welding concentrates all the load in one small
area. Bonding spreads the load over a very large area. Even if the epoxy bond
is 1/10th the strength of a weld, it has far more than 10 times the area.
Plus, bonding does not require heating the axle, altering its heat treatment.
Brazing has many of the same advantages, but does require heating (though to
lower temperatures than welding).
...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
> I don't see welding the shafts as a problem, but a way to
> avoid it is to spline them and use a coupler.
I'm not familiar with the particular rear end Lee is using, but all of
the CV axles I've encountered are a shaft with a spline on each end that
the CV joints slip onto (secured with a circlip). The outer race of the
CV joint then bolts to the flange on the axle stub or output from the
diff.
So, it seems if one was going to spline the shaft anyway, why not just
cut the appropiate amount off one end and then re-spline the cut end it
and pop the CV joint back on?
The main reason for cutting a shaft in the middle seems to be if one
needs to lengthen the shaft.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
I need a charger for a 12 V AGM batt (Deka Group 24) that is isolated.
Trouble is, most of the stuff I have found is non-isolated.
Actually, all normal consumer 12v battery chargers are isolated. You can't get
it UL listed if it isn't. And since car electrical systems are always grounded,
you couldn't use a non-isolated charger off the AC line to charge them.
By "grounded," you mean chassis ground, not earth ground. You _could_
use a non-isolated charger, but that would mean that the car chassis
would be at whatever potential (with respect to earth ground) that
appears on the charger negative terminal. Not the best idea.
Or, did you mean something different by "isolated"?
He almost certainly means "A charger that has no galvanic connection of
any kind between the power cord and the outputs;" an _un(earth)grounded_
output. The only reason that comes to mind for something like this is
to individually charge a series pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The soneil chargers are rated for parallel & series usage, and hence,
they are isolated, and ungrounded. They make a 7A model, and a 5A
model. Dunn
http://soneil.com/12v_chargers.htm
http://soneil.com/Parallel%26SerialApplication.28-Jul-03.pdf
Steve Powers wrote:
I need a charger for a 12 V AGM batt (Deka Group 24) that is isolated. Trouble
is, most of the stuff I have found is non-isolated. So, using it and another
charger when you have a common ground is a very bad idea ...
So, does anyone have a source?
Or, a source for an inexpensive isolation transformer?
Someone once posted something about a 12 V charger that was good for AGMs (optimas in that thread) that had "lite" in the name, but I don't remember what it was. Clip light? Something like that, but I didn't find it in 5 A, and I didn't know it it is isolated, which is critical in my application. You can't use those 6/12 Walmart smart chargers, they are not isolated. Unless of course, I can get an isolation transformer.
Steve
---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been using one of these under my hood for my aux battery. When underway I
can run it right from the main pack as well. Its isolated and potted for
weather protection. I've been thinking of buying a set to finish charging each
battery in the AGM pack. I'd just set the PFC charger to turn off at the
Regulation voltage and let each of these finish off the batteries individually.
http://www.amazon.com/GUEST-Battery-Charger-95-130v-Output/dp/B000J1776U
I've seen them as low as $50 ea.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:37 am
Subject: Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
To: [email protected]
> > I need a charger for a 12 V AGM batt (Deka Group 24) that is
> isolated.> Trouble is, most of the stuff I have found is non-isolated.
>
> Actually, all normal consumer 12v battery chargers are isolated.
> You can't get it UL listed if it isn't. And since car electrical
> systems are always grounded, you couldn't use a non-isolated
> charger off the AC line to charge them.
>
> Or, did you mean something different by "isolated"?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: MIKE WILLMON
> I've been using one of these... isolated and potted... I've been thinking of
> buying a set to finish charging each battery in the AGM pack.
> http://www.amazon.com/GUEST-Battery-Charger-95-130v-Output/dp/B000J1776U
These are nice chargers. They have been around for at least 10 years, and have
a reasonable charging algorithm provided you don't leave them "on" all the time.
However, be aware that they are not particularly reliable. We tested a bunch
of them one place I worked, and had 2 fail out of 10. They tended to run too
hot inside (no way to dissipate heat from that solid block of plastic they have
for a case). Plus, there were noticeable differences in the voltage that each
charged to.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>He almost certainly means "A charger that has no galvanic connection of
>any kind between the power cord and the outputs;" an _un(earth)grounded_
>output. The only reason that comes to mind for something like this is
>to individually charge a series pack.
If this is what he meant, then all consumer 12v battery chargers are isolated.
I wonder if instead, he meant that he wants a 12v output that is isolated from
*ground* as well as from the AC power line. This is more variable; most
chargers have floating outputs, but some ground the negative side of their 12v
output.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey ben what state are u in ? I am in minn . you sound like u have the same
weather . what kind and how many batteries are you using ? what type of car .
I remember ur post about the fire but don't remember car type etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:02 AM
Subject: back in motion
12 days since the fire, and the batteries and 4 new one's are back in and
wired. I'm back on the road with some improvements to prevent further fire
(with more cable shielding where they cross the opposing voltage), more
venting (necesarily because the bed cover tarp burnt in spots)
A nice 2" PVC conduit from front to back for the cable to keep from sagging
below the frame like before.
And inner pack fuses
Did I mention Fire Extinguisher on board?
Have yet to reawaken the batteries and get range back after our 25 degree
cold snap for the last 12 days.
Spent 6 hours yesterday at a tropical 37 degrees F assembling battery pack.
Charging along,
Ben
--- End Message ---
