EV Digest 6418
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Thunder-Sky LiIon Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: noob help
by Jay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: what does unsprung mass or weight mean?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: DC-DC converter on Ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Cost to drive a EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: re[2]: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVAutoX.com Launched to Serve EV AutoCross Enthusiasts
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Altairnano, Phoenix Motors, on TV
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Who Killed the Electric Car goes to washington ?
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: noob help
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Michael L. Werth, please read this msg from the EV List Administrator
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Who Killed the Electric Car goes to washington ?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Zen Motor Specs?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Thunder-Sky LiIon Batteries
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>-----Original Message-----
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:45:07 +0900
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Thunder-Sky LiIon Batteries
>I have just installed 45 ThunderSky TS-LFP80AHA batteries in my car and taken
>it
>for a couple of test runs.
>These batteries are GREAT!!!
>Half the weight and at least 1.5 x the range of my old lead pack. Much less
>voltage sag under acceleration also.
>I am never gonna tow lead again... not ever!
>Just a matter of finishing installing and fine tuning the BMS.
>Regards, Rod Dilkes
>www.dilkesmotors.com
Do you have a spec or a link for the batteries? What kind of BMS are you going
to use?
Frank T.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to get a better understanding of flooded lead acid
batteries and the concept of state of charge.
Following are two questions and answers from the US Battery web site
(http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm)
Q: How to charge USBMC deep cycle batteries.
A: There are numerous correct ways to charge the batteries.
Typically, charge at C÷10 amperes, (where C = the 20 hour capacity of
the system expressed in Ampere Hours) until the battery voltage rises
to 2.583 Volts per cell (i.e. 7.75 volts for a 6V battery). Hold this
voltage constant for 2 to 4 hours, and stop charging. A similar
method would be to charge at the following upper limits and terminate
the charge when the time limit is reached:
* Charge Current = C÷10 Amperes
* Charge Voltage = 2.583 Volts per Cell
* Charge Time = 10 Hours Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the
voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase
by the same amount for temperatures below 80°F.
Q: What is the float voltage for standby applications?
A: 2.17 Volts per Cell adjustment for the temperature as above.
How does this information relate to state of charge.
1) Assuming 80 degrees, is a fully charged battery 2.17 v, 2.583 v or
something else measured absent any load?
2) Is it appropriate to use the same temperature compensation factor
when determining state of charge as is used for charging?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for you help guys
appreciate it
J
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:03:08 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: re: noob helpTo:
[email protected]
Hi Jay:Randy at Canev.com seems pretty knowledgeable and writes excellent
documentation on his conversions. Talk to you soon.
Sincerely,
Michael
> Has anyone read through the el ninja documentation? I have only just become
> interested in all this in the last 2 days so im trying to suck up all the
> information I can. I was thinking of building something really small first.
> However I do work in the electrical industry, so I do have some idea of whats
> going on. Anyone have any hints because I have been looking around the net
> and no one seems to be posting plans or a good break down on how they are
> building their vehicles. I have thus far only found 2 main pages they are
> http://jerryrig.com/convert/ and http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/build most
> of the others just talk how good they are and how smart they are, but no
> plans or anything described in detail. Anything would be very
> helpfulThanks_________________________________________________________________Live
> Search: Better results, fasthttp://get.live.com/search/overview<Mr. Michael
> L. Werth Sensei, DirectorMain Street Martial Arts, Inc.Aikido - Eastside,
> Karate - Ea!
stside, Tai Chi - Eastside, and Yoga - Eastside1282 North Main
StreetProvidence, RI 02904-1830A non-profit community dedicated to peace,
health, and [EMAIL PROTECTED]: (401)274-7672office: (401)274-7671AFFILIATE
PROGRAMS:Kids' Action League of Martial Artists, Inc. 501(c) (3)Providence
After School Alliance (PASA)Providence Department of RecreationVolunteers in
Providence SchoolsH20: Hope High School Martial Arts ClubJ&W
Self-Defense/Martial Arts ClubCCRI Self-Defense/Martial Arts ClubURI
Self-Defense/Martial Arts ClubPC Self-Defense/Martial Arts ClubBrown
Self-Defense/Martial ClubRIC Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club(Please ask about
special scholarship/discount rates for college students, faculty, and staff,
and school clubs!)ONLINE DISCUSSION
GROUP:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundaybrunchaikidoclubii <--- Click &
Join!Mr. Michael L Werth Sensei, PresidentKids' Action League of Martial
Artists, Inc. 501(c) (3)56 Greaton DrProvidence, RI 02906-2914A!
non-profit community dedicated to educating children in advancednumer
acy, literacy, and character development through martial
arts.www.kaloma.orgwww.firstgiving.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]: (401)274-7671
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search: New search found
http://get.live.com/search/overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: what does unsprung mass or weight mean?
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:29:22 -0800 (PST)
Peter,
I'm sure that there is more energy savings by reducing
weight in the drivetrain than by the same reduction in
weight reduction of "carried weight" like freight.
There are many other factors like "moment of inertia"
and the effects of reducing weight at the outside of
the wheels versus the reductions in weight at center
hub area. Some of these are very substantial. A
reduction of a single ounce at the tire perimeter
would be far preferable to a reduction at the hub
center.
The repeated stops and starts at the piston stroke
ends is an area of wasted energy.
Not quite. The energy of the piston ( and rod, etc) as it slows down
transfers into the engine's rotational mass (flywheel, etc) so there are no
energy losses involved in its decelleration. And, the energy to start the
piston moving again comes out of the rotating mass.
In a multi-cylinder engine, this kinetic energy is continually transferring
among the pistons and the flywheel. The pistons just act as a bit more
rotating mass.
There are, of course, friction losses in the drag of the pistions in the
cylinder, but not related to piston mass.
Phil
This may not be a
specific area defined as "sprung vs: unsprung", but
again if you reduce piston weight, you save more
energy than weight of freight.
Some moving parts like the crankshaft have benefits of
having weight that may be required, versus a driveline
for example, where a lighter weight would be always(?)
beneficial and therefor preferable to a reduction in
same weight savings of carried freight.
At any rate, our definition at Michelin was to include
drivelines and other engine/trans components into the
same definition of "unsprung" as wheels and tires.
I don't get this. It seems like you are lumping unsprung mass with rotating
mass. Some components may be included in both categories, but these are
different effects.
Phil
Additionally, it was a frequent area of concern to
trace vibrations that were mistakenly blamed on tires
too, although the tires are always the first suspect
cause.
What say the engineers?
Regards,
Jay Lashlee, GoWheel.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------------
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On a truck, if you had extra weight in the
> drivetrain
> > (wheels, tires, driveline, pistons, crankshaft,
> gears,
> > pulleys, fanbelts), it would be "unsprung weight".
>
> Umm, no. Only the weight that is out by the wheels
> and moves with the
> wheels in "unsprung". I.e. the Wheels and tires
> part, but NOT the
> pistons, crankshaft, gears, pulleys, and fanbelts.
> All of the later parts
> are "sprung" since they are fixed to the body and
> carried by the
> suspension.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently the primary side is limited to 6A input, hence the MAX 50A output
only delivered for input >120V,
at 84V it does 30A, see:
http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Bryan B.
Subject: DC-DC converter on Ebay
There is an excellent DC-DC converter made specifically for EV applications
on Ebay right now. It is up to 196V at 50 amps. The supplier in CA
(Belktronix) also makes other parts for EVs and is making my motor
controller, Charger & converter (144v setup). He used to work for FMC and
has experience with heavy duty EVs. Long waits for parts from other
suppliers were trying my patience!
The ebay item is 120086090882
Link is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Vehicle-DC-DC-Converter-NEW-50A-84V-196V-DC-IN_
W0QQitemZ120086090882QQihZ002QQcategoryZ79817QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi
ewItem
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and what
is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the battery
heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then it
gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and gets
even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all current
(on charge as well
as on discharge!) so there effectively is no buddy pairing, it is one
effective battery,
but the current limit and expected capacity are for the buddy pair, so not
only does the
good battery get hit with double current, it will also be run down to
empty when you
think that you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a different
temperature to start with and other failures that batteries can develop and
which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had his
car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to circumstances,
normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs (Goggomobile 36Volts)
and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire the
pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the wanted
buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high currents in
case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery regulators should
still be OK with only one per pair as typical currents through regulators
are small. They should also tell when one battery develops a problem and the
voltage gets too high or too low too soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a lower
state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC increases and its
voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the charge current. The voltage
of the battery with a higher SOC cannot get significantly higher than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster and
> so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker doesn't get
> the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go deeper than the
> other or the stronger battery will charge it up and equalize costing
> power. With regulators across the pair you will still have the same
> problem. The regulator will not cut the current off to the stronger
> battery so the weaker can get more charge. Believe me - there will
> always be a weaker and a stronger battery in a buddy pair. As the
> batteries age the difference will become greater and eventually the
> buddy pair will kill both batteries. I would really recommend
> separating the buddy pairs into strings of series batteries that can
> be connected in parallel during use or charging. That way your pack
> won't prematurely kill itself. I would hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want
> to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
from US Battery web site http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
>
> Q: How to charge USBMC deep cycle batteries.
> A: There are numerous correct ways to charge the batteries.
> Typically, charge at C÷10 amperes, (where C = the 20 hour capacity of
> the system expressed in Ampere Hours) until the battery voltage rises
> to 2.583 Volts per cell (i.e. 7.75 volts for a 6V battery). Hold this
> voltage constant for 2 to 4 hours, and stop charging. A similar
> method would be to charge at the following upper limits and terminate
> the charge when the time limit is reached:
> * Charge Current = C÷10 Amperes
> * Charge Voltage = 2.583 Volts per Cell
> * Charge Time = 10 Hours Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the
> voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase
> by the same amount for temperatures below 80°F.
>
> Q: What is the float voltage for standby applications?
> A: 2.17 Volts per Cell adjustment for the temperature as above.
>
John O'Connor asked:
> How does this information relate to state of charge?
The above charging algorithm is a rather agressive, full equalization charge,
suitable for a new battery that has been deeply discharged. Let's assume the
battery started off at 0% state of charge; it would be at about 1.97v/cell at
zero current.
When you start charging at that c/10 rate, the voltage would almost immediately
rise to 2.07v/cell (which is 0% SOC at that charging current). Over the next 8
hours, the current would stay the same, and the SOC would rise about 10% per
hour. The voltage would also rise fairly linearly to about 2.4v/cell. at this
point, you are about 80% charged.
>From this point, the battery starts to gas, it starts to warm up, and the
>voltage starts to rise more rapidly. But it is actually charging at a slower
>rate, because some of the current is being used up for heating and gassing.
Fairly soon, the voltage will hit its peak (2.583v/cell in a charger using this
algorithm). Older batteries, or hotter batteries, or other brands, or other
chargers will generally peak out at somewhat less voltage. At this point, the
current will begin to fall because the voltage can't rise any more. At this
point, the battery is at 100% SOC.
However, they want you to keep charging for 2-4 hours anyway. This is called
"equalization", and its purpose is to deliberately overcharge to allow time for
any weaker cells in the series string to catch up and reach full as well. The
gassing and bubbling that is occurring also helps mix the electrolyte, and warm
up the battery.
You don't need to do this 2-4 hour equalization on every charge cycle. If you
do, it makes the battery use more water, run warmer, and tends to shorten its
life. If you're driving your EV every day, it will be sufficient to do this
equalization charge 1-4 times a month.
>1) Assuming 80 degrees, is a fully charged battery 2.17 v, 2.583 v or
>something else measured absent any load?
To estimate state of charge using voltage, it is important that the battery be
at ZERO current (no charging or discharging) for at least several hours.
Otherwise, you get large measurement errors. SG (Specific Gravity) is
preferable to voltage; it is more accurate, and not affected by time or load.
For a flooded battery, the relationship is approximately
1.97v/cell - 1.100 s.g. - 0% SOC
1.99v/cell - 1.140 s.g. - 25%
2.03v/cell - 1.180 s.g. - 50%
2.06v/cell - 1.220 s.g. - 75%
2.10v/cell - 1.260 s.g. - 100% SOC
These numbers are for "middle aged" batteries. Voltages and SGs will be higher
for new batteries, lower for older ones.
> 2) Is it appropriate to use the same temperature compensation factor
> when determining state of charge as is used for charging?
No; you do not need to apply a temperature compensation for no-load voltage
measurements to determine state of charge. But, you do need to temperature
correct specific gravity readings. Normally, your hydrometer does this for you.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RTFM ;-}
Or use Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Encabulator
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Encabulator>
Here you will see that this wonderful machine creates fiction and
techno-babble
_____
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael L Werth
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:39 PM
To: EV Listserv
Subject: re[2]: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
Hey, that's great. What does it do?
> retro
encabulator <
Mr. Michael L. Werth Sensei, Director
Main Street Martial Arts, Inc.
Aikido - Eastside, Karate - Eastside, Tai Chi - Eastside, and Yoga -
Eastside
1282 North Main Street
Providence, RI 02904-1830
A non-profit community dedicated to peace, health, and safety.
<http://www.budojo.org> www.budojo.org
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
dojo: (401)274-7672
office: (401)274-7671
AFFILIATE PROGRAMS:
Kids' Action League of Martial Artists, Inc. 501(c) (3)
Providence After School Alliance (PASA)
Providence Department of Recreation
Volunteers in Providence Schools
H20: Hope High School Martial Arts Club
J&W Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club
CCRI Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club
URI Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club
PC Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club
Brown Self-Defense/Martial Club
RIC Self-Defense/Martial Arts Club
(Please ask about special scholarship/discount rates for college students,
faculty, and staff, and school clubs!)
ONLINE DISCUSSION GROUP:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundaybrunchaikidoclubii>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sundaybrunchaikidoclubii <--- Click & Join!
Mr. Michael L Werth Sensei, President
Kids' Action League of Martial Artists, Inc. 501(c) (3)
56 Greaton Dr
Providence, RI 02906-2914
A non-profit community dedicated to educating children in advanced
numeracy, literacy, and character development through martial arts.
<http://www.kaloma.org> www.kaloma.org
<http://www.firstgiving.com/kaloma> www.firstgiving.com/kaloma
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
office: (401)274-7671
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I'm not sure how they would work in a car, however, they seem to
work very well in trailers & 5th wheels that can weigh 5 tons or more.
I also know they make a lot of different trailer brake controllers that
modulate the signal going to the brakes to very their braking power.
However, you also have the braking from the towed vehicle that might
smooth out the trailer's braking.
> From: Peter VanDerWal
>> Hmm, trailer brakes...
>> How about using eletric trailer brakes and PWM them based on pedal
>> position?
>> Probably not a good idea, but possibly worth investigating.
>
> An interesting idea. But they look incredibly cheaply made, and I suspect
> that modulating the braking force with them would be hard. But if it
> worked, it could be a cheaper lighter system than hydraulic brakes.
>
> There are also some legal issues. I believe the law says hydraulic brakes
> are "required". I think GM had to get some kind of waiver to use electric
> brakes on the back of the EV1.
> --
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We're pretty close to locking in a venue right near Mason Dixon with a huge
parking lot for the 2nd. Tracy will not be denied at this point.
We absolutely plan on doing a Scooter/Go-Kart Cross as well as the AutoCross
on Saturday, albeit on a shorter course (for the scooters anyway). The
Florida guys used that format at the BBB and it worked out great. More folks
involved, so more fun for all.
We;ll definately post updates on the http://www.EVAutoX.com site (plug plug
plug..go check it out) as they develop.
Regards, Mike
Mike Harvey
Harvey Coachworks and EV
(877) 841-9730
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.harveyev.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: EVAutoX.com Launched to Serve EV AutoCross Enthusiasts
Hi Rich,
Thanks for the info. What Mike and I are planning to do for the Power of
DC is hold the AutoCross on Saturday June 2 and the drag race Sunday
June 3.
So spreading the charging across two days shouldn't be too much of an
issue for the competitors.
We have the drag strip reserved for the Mason Dixon Dragway in Maryland
as in years past. Its just nailing down a venue for the AutoCross but
Mike and his wife Tracey are looking into that.
We'll probably look into doing a ScooterCross as well just like Shawn
did at the BBB. So the 2 wheelers can have some fun as well.
I agree with Shawn that having both types of events really shows the EVs
capabilities and running in the AutoCross is pretty fun as well.
A few years ago when the Custom Van movement was popular we used to race
our vans on a slalom course set up on an old airport runway at the
annual Van-In meet. Because we were pretty much racing air- brushed
shoeboxes and sometimes under the influence of a few Budweisers it
wasn't unusual for a van to flip. The goal at the time was not so much
to beat the clock as it was to get your van through the course in one
piece without flipping it.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Feb 13, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 13, 2007 12:06:56 PM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: EVAutoX.com Launched to Serve EV AutoCross Enthusiasts
Hey Rich,
Thanks for the info on the magazine, that's a great idea. I will be in
Daytona next month so maybe I can drop in on them as well.
I think Chip and Mike are going to try to hold an EVAutocross in June
at the
Power of DC, much like we did at BBB. We try to hold the drag race at
one
time and the autox the next day or at least well spaced out so people
have
time to charge and change any settings on their cars. At the BBB we
drag
race Friday night and run the autox the next afternoon. Having both at
the
event really does help show off the capabilities of the EV, not only on
the
drag strip, but on the course - power and handling. To watch some of
the
EV's power down the track and then watch them run an autocross
certainly
does change some people's views.
The participation and interest in EV autox has been great. It's a lot
of fun
to not only enter but watch. Some folks, like some of the school teams,
will
also have multiple drivers per car which adds to the fun. The grins
keep
coming!
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
561-543-9223
www.floridaeaa.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=43F8E9C7319D311C0EA5D402EE1633C1?contentId=2363043&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1
Quote:
ALTAIR'S NANOSAFE BATTERY AND PHOENIX MOTORCARS ON THE
FOX TELEVISION NETWORK
Monday night, February 12, on the Fox Television
Network, there was a short segment which showed the
Phoenix Motorcars' SUV and SUT, as well as Altair's
NanoSafeTM battery under the hood. You can view the
segment on Altair's website (www.altairnano.com).
Locate "Hot News" and click on the first item, "Hot
Electrics: The Electric Bandwagon."
Also on the Fox Television Network, there will be a 30
minute specialty piece airing Thursday, February 15,
at 10:30 p.m., titled "Auto Evolution" which will
focus heavily on the Phoenix Motorcars' electric
vehicles which utilize Altair's NanoSafe batteries.
If we can provide you with additional information
regarding Altair Nanotechnologies (Nasdaq:ALTI),
please feel welcome to contact McCloud Communications,
investor relations counsel to Altairnano.
Best regards,
Marty Tullio
Managing Member
McCloud Communications
949.553.9748
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Correct,
>
> I think the law defines it as that there must in all circumstances be a
> mechanical brake.
>
> So, a brake operated by a flow of a fluid is OK.
> Operating a brake by a flow of electricity is NOT OK, if there is not also
> a mechanical brake.
Hmm, I don't think so.
The federal requirements actually state "Standard No. 105 - Hydraulic and
Electric Brake Systems - Passenger Cars"
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html#SN105
At any rate, I believe these are going to be kits? As such the federal
codes might not matter, you'd only need to meet the state requirements.
I did a quick search on a couple states and they only say that the vehicle
needs to have brakes capable of stopping it, no mention of hydrualics or
otherwise.
Examples:
MISSISSIPPI CODE SEC. 63-7-51.
Every motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, when operated upon a highway
shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to
stop and hold such vehicle, including two separate means of applying the
brakes, each of which means shall be effective to apply the brakes to at
least two wheels. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are
connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one
part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without
brakes on at least two wheels.
California code
38355. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), every motor vehicle
shall be equipped with a service brake system which is in good working
order and adequate to control the movement of, and to stop and hold to the
limit of traction of, such vehicle or combination of vehicles under all
conditions of loading and upon any grade on which it is operated.
(b) Any motor vehicle, such as an air-cushioned vehicle, which is unable
to comply with the requirements of this section due to the method of
operation, is exempt, if the operator is able to exercise safe control
over the movement of such vehicle.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Politician speaking out for EV's & Who Killed the Electric Car
Sen Sanders suggests a hearing on "Who Killed the
Electric Car"
During todays Senate Environmental Committee hearing
on Climate Change, Senator Bernie Sanders brought up
the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car" a few times
during questioning. After his questioning, Senator
Boxer, chair of the committee, suggested that it is a
movie everyone should see. Senator Sanders said that
he would like to bring in those guys (I guess those
who made the movie) before them. Senator Boxer
suggested putting it together and said she would let
Senator Sanders chair the hearing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From driving many thousands of miles with a large (8000+ lbs) trailer
and electric brakes, I would say that trailer brakes can be very good.
In fact, with just the manual override on the trailer brake controller,
I could slow and stop the whole rig (truck and trailer) fairly smoothly.
If the trailer was unloaded, it was a little trickier, but still
possible. The electronic controller for the brakes has a manual control
that allows a very light braking all the way to locking the wheels, and
everything in between, and in normal (automatic) operation, uses some
kind of velocity sensor to match the service brakes on the truck. The
whole system uses very little power and seems to be very reliable. I
know not all trailer brakes are that good, but it IS possible.
Lee Hart wrote:
From: Peter VanDerWal
Hmm, trailer brakes... How about using eletric trailer brakes and
PWM them based on pedal position? Probably not a good idea, but
possibly worth investigating.
An interesting idea. But they look incredibly cheaply made, and I
suspect that modulating the braking force with them would be hard.
But if it worked, it could be a cheaper lighter system than hydraulic
brakes.
There are also some legal issues. I believe the law says hydraulic
brakes are "required". I think GM had to get some kind of waiver to
use electric brakes on the back of the EV1. --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 14, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
How about a compromise, drums in the back and discs in front?
1/2 the drag and all the stopping power.
Just like my Karmann Ghia.
If possible, I'd suggest offering multiple options:
1) drums all round
2) discs in front, drums in back
3) discs all round
4) let the customer source and install his own darn brakes
along with information on how to choose.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the best EV conversion diary that i know of. Its about 200 pages of
really interesting stuff about how to convert a saturn 4 door sedan. Also
includes a motorcycle conversion!
http://www.docdockdocuments.com/conversion/ConversionIndex.htm
From: Jay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: noob help
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:11:24 +1100
Has anyone read through the el ninja documentation? I have only just
become interested in all this in the last 2 days so im trying to suck up
all the information I can. I was thinking of building something really
small first. However I do work in the electrical industry, so I do have
some idea of whats going on. Anyone have any hints because I have been
looking around the net and no one seems to be posting plans or a good break
down on how they are building their vehicles. I have thus far only found 2
main pages they are http://jerryrig.com/convert/ and
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/build most of the others just talk how good
they are and how smart they are, but no plans or anything described in
detail. Anything would be very helpful
Thanks
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search: Better results, fast
http://get.live.com/search/overview
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2007 at 20:10, Mark Ward wrote:
> There is an excellent DC-DC converter made specifically for EV applications on
> Ebay right now. It is up to 196V at 50 amps.
A 9.8kW DC:DC? Are you serious?!!? What on earth would you use that much
12 volt power for?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael. As EVDL administrator, I have three requests for you.
1. Please configure your email client to send only plain text - not html,
not rich text, not multipart. Plain text only is the standard for the EV
list.
If you can't so configure your email client, please post using a different
email account. Yahoo and Lycos mail can both be easily configured to send
plain text only. I'll be glad to provide directions if you need them.
Please read the list of EVDL conventions :
http://evdl.org/help/#conv
2. Please trim your signature. You have 38 lines of advertising at the end
of your messages, usually appreciably more material than in the messages
themselves. This constitutes an egregious waste of EVDL bandwidth and is
considered poor "netiquette."
http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/signatur.html
3. It appears that your antispam system is sending out interception notices
to many members of the EV list when THEY post. Please turn off your
antispam interception service, or else use a different account (see above)
to post to the EVDL.
I apologize for making these requests in public, but I can't contact you
privately because of your antispam system.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
You are absolutely correct - The standard Nr 135 (which is the one all new
passenger cars must adhere to)
can be found here, together with the other standards:
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr571_03.html
It even describes how to test EVs (and other vehicles) with regenerative
brakes and any vehicle with electrically actuated brakes.
I was confused with the requirements to the parking brake:
"S5.2. Parking brake system. Each vehicle shall be equipped with a parking
brake system of a friction type with solely mechanical means to retain
engagement."
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
> Correct,
>
> I think the law defines it as that there must in all circumstances be
> a mechanical brake.
>
> So, a brake operated by a flow of a fluid is OK.
> Operating a brake by a flow of electricity is NOT OK, if there is not
> also a mechanical brake.
Hmm, I don't think so.
The federal requirements actually state "Standard No. 105 - Hydraulic and
Electric Brake Systems - Passenger Cars"
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html#SN105
At any rate, I believe these are going to be kits? As such the federal
codes might not matter, you'd only need to meet the state requirements.
I did a quick search on a couple states and they only say that the vehicle
needs to have brakes capable of stopping it, no mention of hydrualics or
otherwise.
Examples:
MISSISSIPPI CODE SEC. 63-7-51.
Every motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, when operated upon a highway
shall be equipped with brakes adequate to control the movement of and to
stop and hold such vehicle, including two separate means of applying the
brakes, each of which means shall be effective to apply the brakes to at
least two wheels. If these two separate means of applying the brakes are
connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one
part of the operating mechanism shall not leave the motor vehicle without
brakes on at least two wheels.
California code
38355. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (b), every motor vehicle
shall be equipped with a service brake system which is in good working order
and adequate to control the movement of, and to stop and hold to the limit
of traction of, such vehicle or combination of vehicles under all conditions
of loading and upon any grade on which it is operated.
(b) Any motor vehicle, such as an air-cushioned vehicle, which is unable to
comply with the requirements of this section due to the method of operation,
is exempt, if the operator is able to exercise safe control over the
movement of such vehicle.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A reminder : always be careful to stay on topic, and to remain strictly
nonpartisan, when mentioning or discussing politics on the EV list.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know what kind of motor the Zen car has? Controller? All
I know is it's 72V dc
Thanks
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Im just curious how much these things cost, if there not to expensive i
might use them in a motorcycle im going to convert in the future.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Thunder-Sky LiIon Batteries
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 07:45:07 +0900
I have just installed 45 ThunderSky TS-LFP80AHA batteries in my car and
taken it
for a couple of test runs.
These batteries are GREAT!!!
Half the weight and at least 1.5 x the range of my old lead pack. Much less
voltage sag under acceleration also.
I am never gonna tow lead again... not ever!
Just a matter of finishing installing and fine tuning the BMS.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.dilkesmotors.com
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
--- End Message ---
