EV Digest 6419
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: C&D UPS12-475FR Batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Thundersky batteries
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Introductions
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Introductions
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Introductions
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Spam Arrest from Mr. Michael L. Werth Sensei,
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: noob help
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM batts
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Drumming For Brakes. WAS Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier -brake drag
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
by "Ted Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Introductions
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Handling plasmaboyracing.com blog comments
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 14, 2007, at 10:21 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 14 Feb 2007 at 20:10, Mark Ward wrote:
There is an excellent DC-DC converter made specifically for EV
applications on
Ebay right now. It is up to 196V at 50 amps.
A 9.8kW DC:DC? Are you serious?!!? What on earth would you use that
much
12 volt power for?
That's 196v input, with a 13.5v output at 50 amps.
Is 675W better?
Specs are available here: <http://www.belktronix.com/isodcdc.html>
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
> On 14 Feb 2007 at 20:10, Mark Ward wrote:
>
> > There is an excellent DC-DC converter made specifically for EV
applications on
> > Ebay right now. It is up to 196V at 50 amps.
>
> A 9.8kW DC:DC? Are you serious?!!? What on earth would you use that much
> 12 volt power for?
> WELDING? Jump starting ICE mobiles?Charging a solar power battery on a day
like today? Icestorm, gloomy. Where solaa panels would be just going "Duh!"
> Bob
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have five of these that are 11 years old and still put out rated ampere
hours at the 20 hour rate. The internal impedance is up so they don't last
long at over 20 amps. They are connected in parallel doing duty in my
motorhome now.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: C&D UPS12-475FR Batteries
> Anyone have any experience with these?
http://www.anybattery.com/specs/pdf-10729830.pdf
>
> I've seen a couple hiding under hoods on some vehicle on the EVAlbum and
wonder what peoples take on them are. I have the opportunity to pick up 72
of these from my company that will get donated to the AlaskaEVA to support
school projects. I'm working it from my companies side to get proper waiver
of liability. I also want to get some kids currently working on a high
school project some batteries to help their budget constraints. I know the
history of the batteries and I wouldn't try to push this deal if I thought
they weren't salvagable. In fact they were tied for 1 year to a lightly
loaded UPS that was extremely infrequently called on for backup. Then they
sat for two years with the UPS unloaded completely. If I can work the deal
I'll get them charged good before they're cut lose and put a load tester on
them to help ID the stinkers (if any). Then we'll implement the plan to get
them in the hands of the folks running the school projects. Does anyone
think this is
> not worth the effort?
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard of people using 1" X 1/16" copper for connections between
batteries. How does the current carrying capacity of this compare with 2/0
gauge round cable? It seems like the flat strip weighs roughly half of what
the 2/0 cable weighs per foot...
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't keep us in suspense. Pictures, stats, etc.
What vehicle are they installed in? Give us some "before" & "after" numbers.
:)
Rich
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
Just a quick email to introduce myself, as I just joined this list
today. My name is Ian Hooper, I'm from Perth, Western Australia. My
new year's resolution for '07 was/is to convert my car to electric!
So far the plans are fairly modest - a series 1 MX5 (Miata) with a
Curtis 1231, an ADC 9", and ~10kWh of NiMH batteries. Considering a
Warp9 and Zilla1K instead.. maybe. Anyway it should be fun, I can't
wait to get started (once I know what I'm doing a bit better! ;)
Cheers,
-Ian
PS: Any other Aussies on the list?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ian, and welcome to the list!
I do recall several Aussies over the year
contributing their 0.02.
If you use Curtis/ADC 9" you will get a whine under 5
mph or so. After that the frequency switches to the
15kHz (inaudible) range. Some people can't stand it;
others look at it as a safety feature for pedestrians
in parking lots.
If you can't squeeze your 10kWh into the Miata,
check out my Civvy.
Best to you,
--- Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Just a quick email to introduce myself, as I just
> joined this list
> today. My name is Ian Hooper, I'm from Perth,
> Western Australia. My
> new year's resolution for '07 was/is to convert my
> car to electric!
>
> So far the plans are fairly modest - a series 1 MX5
> (Miata) with a
> Curtis 1231, an ADC 9", and ~10kWh of NiMH
> batteries. Considering a
> Warp9 and Zilla1K instead.. maybe. Anyway it should
> be fun, I can't
> wait to get started (once I know what I'm doing a
> bit better! ;)
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Ian
>
> PS: Any other Aussies on the list?
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
The current carrying capacity is proprotional to the cross sectional area of
the copper conductor, given other considerations are equal such as insulation
rating, temperature rise, etc. A quick look at my table gives cross section
for 2/0 as 0.1024 sq in. Your rectangle is 0.0625 sq in. So, the easy answer
is 60 percent as much as the 2/0.
It may in fact work just fine for you if the lengths are short and
ventilation is good. Using solid copper with holes to bolt to battery
terminals has the plus of eliminating the crimp lugs needed for the cable, but
can also present problems because it is not very flexible. Your design needs
to allow for some movement due to thermal expansion and vibration. Otherwise
your connections may loosen or you damage the seals on the battery posts.
FlexiBar is a good alternative.
http://www.erico.com/products/FlexibarN.asp
Jeff
Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have heard of people using 1" X 1/16" copper for connections between
batteries. How does the current carrying capacity of this compare with 2/0
gauge round cable? It seems like the flat strip weighs roughly half of what
the 2/0 cable weighs per foot...
Bruce
---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am a little behind on my evlist reading, so this may have already been
answered by someone else.
I would want disk up front and drum in back.
Reasoning:
I drive through a puddle and then need the brakes, Disks recover faster
Disks are easier to service and to monitor, The front brakes need
this more often.
example 95 grand am vented disk up front, punny drum in back.
Pads up front changed 4 or 5 times in 125K miles
Shoes changed 1 and they didn't really need to be.
The emergancy brake mechanism is easy and the brake requirements in
rear are less
brake fade on overheated brakes on the disk but increased grab until
failure on the drum.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Replies inline..
On 15/02/2007, at 10:31 PM, Bob Bath wrote:
Hi Ian, and welcome to the list!
I do recall several Aussies over the year
contributing their 0.02.
If you use Curtis/ADC 9" you will get a whine under 5
mph or so. After that the frequency switches to the
15kHz (inaudible) range. Some people can't stand it;
others look at it as a safety feature for pedestrians
in parking lots.
Yeah I've heard that about the Curtis controller - I suspect it would
annoy the heck out of me! Anyone know what the waiting period is like
for Zilla 1Ks at present!?
If you can't squeeze your 10kWh into the Miata,
check out my Civvy.
Looks like a nice install. BTW the link to the powerpoint
presentation appears not to be working?
I should be right for space, 10kWh of NiMHs only take up a touch over
60L, and come in around 150kgs. Half under the hood, half where the
tank was, should even keep the weight balance right! Being a small
sports car, I'm really hoping to avoid the weight of lead acid..
Unfortunately NiMHs seem to be about twice the price, and are going
to require some kind of BMS.
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't seen any spam from him; I guess my spam arrest software (Postini)
probably catches it and deletes it.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: Spam Arrest from Mr. Michael L. Werth Sensei,
> Don Cameron wrote:
>
> > Anybody else getting spammed from Mr. Michael L. Werth Sensei
> > with his spam arrest software each time I post to the EV list?
>
> No, we only get spammed by him when *we* post ;^>
>
> (i.e. since he subscribed, anyone who posts to the list will receive
> spam from his spam arrest software).
>
> On the bright side, this means he is probably not getting any messages
> from the list and will shortly either figure it out or unsubscribe. Too
> bad the LISTPROC doesn't setup the headers such that the spam is sent to
> the list server instead of the original poster since this would likely
> result in the automatic supension of the offending address in short
> order...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.39/687 - Release Date: 2/14/2007
4:17 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
> The adhesive to attach it to the steel would be
> challenging. The steel
> shaft would "wind up" under torque, so the composite
> tube would need to
> have the same torque stiffness, or the adhesive
> joint between them would
> "peel away" from one end to the other.
you're way ahead of me Lee, I hadn't even thought of
this. (I think you really mean shear though don't
you?).
I'm not sure it is such a problem though, essentially
the force generated by the torque must pass through
the adhesive bond from the shaft to the sleeve. You
want to ensure there is enough area of adhesive
involved in transmitting the force. The relative
stiffness of the shaft and sleeve will have some
influence but much more significant will be how
ductile is the adhesive. The adhesive needs to be able
to spread the load before it fails.
> but adhesives are
> not my specialty.
Nor mine. We used to buy cloth and resins from SP
systems in Isle of Wight, UK. The tech support people
were very good (but that was 20 years ago). You can
try asking them or a similar company for advice.
> Measure
> their stress-strain (what torque for what
> deflection) to failure.
This will tell you the ultimate strength of the
assembly which I don't think is that usefull to you
because the failure mode of a rotating shaft will
almost certainly be fatigue and the fatigue strenght
isn't neccessarily proportional to the ultimate
strength.
For example a stress range of 65N/mm2 would give you
about 1e8 cycles to failure in unwelded steel and
about 5e6 cycles in an undressed full pen weld but
only about 1e6 cycles to failure in a weld with a root
gap. All three situations would give the same ultimate
strength but up to 100 times variation in fatigue
life.
I think you'd be better of doing a little FE analysis
to see what stress levels you have at the critical
locations and then doing some hand calcs to predict
fatigue life.
I've made a quick and dirty 5 minute FE analysis of a
1m long, 100mm diameter, 6mm wall thickness shaft with
a sleeved joint. I'll email the stress plots to you.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> thomas ward wrote [lots more good advice]:
>
> Thanks again, Thomas. I'm interested in trying your
> idea to use a
> composite tube and epoxy to connect the cut ends of
> the axles. If it
> works, it could be a better solution than new custom
> axles ($300+ each)
> or the machining required to put new splines on the
> cut end (the
> opposite end's CV joint doesn't come off; which
> complicates things).
>
> Here's my EE's naive take on this ME problem.
>
> A composite torque tube would be wound like a toilet
> paper tube; with
> fibers at a 45 deg. angle, 2 or more layers
> spiraling in opposite
> directions.
>
> The adhesive to attach it to the steel would be
> challenging. The steel
> shaft would "wind up" under torque, so the composite
> tube would need to
> have the same torque stiffness, or the adhesive
> joint between them would
> "peel away" from one end to the other.
>
> It would probably be easier to use a steel tube,
> since it could be more
> easily matched to the stiffness of the existing
> steel axle.
>
> I don't know what we'd use for the adhesive between
> the two. I imagine
> the auto industry has inspired dozens of candidates,
> but adhesives are
> not my specialty.
>
> So, my thought is to do some testing. Buy some 3/8"
> long extensions for
> a socket wrench; they should be hardened similar to
> the axle. Measure
> their stress-strain (what torque for what
> deflection) to failure. Cut
> one, weld it, and test again. Cut one, glue it with
> a steel tube, and
> test again. Also try brazing it with a steel tube,
> and epoxying it with
> a composite fiberglass tube. See what the results
> are!
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
That is a good link. Ken Norwicks' link on the
evalbum doesnt seem to work anymore. I am glad to see
that the original is still working.
--- Tim Gamber > wrote:
> This is the best EV conversion diary that i know of.
> Its about 200 pages of
> really interesting stuff about how to convert a
> saturn 4 door sedan. Also
> includes a motorcycle conversion!
>
>
http://www.docdockdocuments.com/conversion/ConversionIndex.htm
>
>
> >From: Jay >
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: noob help
> >Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:11:24 +1100
> >
> >Has anyone read through the el ninja documentation?
> I have only just
> >become interested in all this in the last 2 days so
> im trying to suck up
> >all the information I can. I was thinking of
> building something really
> >small first. However I do work in the electrical
> industry, so I do have
> >some idea of whats going on. Anyone have any hints
> because I have been
> >looking around the net and no one seems to be
> posting plans or a good break
> >down on how they are building their vehicles. I
> have thus far only found 2
> >main pages they are http://jerryrig.com/convert/
> and
> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/build most of the
> others just talk how good
> >they are and how smart they are, but no plans or
> anything described in
> >detail. Anything would be very helpful
> >
> >Thanks
>
>_________________________________________________________________
> >Live Search: Better results, fast
> >http://get.live.com/search/overview
> >
>
>
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____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables Date: Thu, 15 Feb
2007 05:53:15 -0800 (PST)
Hi Bruce,
The current carrying capacity is proprotional to the cross sectional
area of the copper conductor, given other considerations are equal such as
insulation rating, temperature rise, etc.
But, remember that a flat bus bar ( like 0.06 x 1) will have much more
surface area than a circular cable of the same cross section ( or, even one
with somewhat larger cross-section, so it will stay cooler over time, since
it can shed heat more easily.
PhilA quick look at my table gives cross section for 2/0 as 0.1024 sq in.
Your rectangle is 0.0625 sq in. So, the easy answer is 60 percent as much
as the 2/0.
It may in fact work just fine for you if the lengths are short and
ventilation is good. Using solid copper with holes to bolt to battery
terminals has the plus of eliminating the crimp lugs needed for the cable,
but can also present problems because it is not very flexible. Your design
needs to allow for some movement due to thermal expansion and vibration.
Otherwise your connections may loosen or you damage the seals on the
battery posts.
FlexiBar is a good alternative.
http://www.erico.com/products/FlexibarN.asp
Jeff
Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have heard of people using 1" X 1/16" copper for connections between
batteries. How does the current carrying capacity of this compare with 2/0
gauge round cable? It seems like the flat strip weighs roughly half of what
the 2/0 cable weighs per foot...
Bruce
---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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--- Begin Message ---
I tried them, and as you said, they were unreliable.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for a 12 V / 5 Amp minimum isolated charger for AGM
batts
> On 12 Feb 2007 at 0:00, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > However, be aware that [Guest chargers] are not particularly reliable.
>
> A couple of list members tried Guest chargers for modular charging about
10
> years ago. IIRC, they found them far too unreliable; they were reversing
> batteries that hadn't been properly charged.
>
> I might be remembering incorrectly, but it seems to me that Bill Dube' was
> one who tried them back then. If so, he might have some thoughts.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007
1:23 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
How would people feel if I used drum brakes on the Sunrise kit car?
1. Great idea! Eliminates dragging brakes, and probably cheaper too.
2. Horrible idea! No one would even consider not having disk brakes
nowdays.
Bob Rice wrote:
Me too [for drums]. Funny the Corvair Corsa, of 1965, had 10 inch
drums all around, and did fine. No power assist, but with those huge
drums you wouldn't have needed it.
I happen to have a 1965 Corsa. It's about the same size and weight as
the Sunrise, and Bob is right; its drum brakes work quite well. This is
one of the things that prejudices me toward drums.
However, one advantage of using the 1989-97 T-Bird/Cougar as a donor car
is they are available with both drums and disks. Builders can pick what
they like.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale Ulan wrote:
Solectria had regen braking, that takes some real-world wear and pressure
off the braking system, though it needs to be able to stop safely in the
case of a controller-blown-up (freewheel/no regen) or full battery (low
regen available due to voltage limit) situation.
We have regen, too; but by the expedient of a separate alternator on the
back of the WarP motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
I don't recall at this time, I talked to one of the mechanical
engineers about a year ago and he mentioned that one of the reason for
the electric hydraulic brake system was to eliminate drag. I'll ask
him about it again next time I see him.
That "electric hydraulic" stuff is mostly techno-babble. The EV1 chassis
I saw in 1997 had completely ordinary looking front disk hydraulic
brakes, complete with pedal operated master cylinder, hydraulic lines,
etc. The rear brakes were very conventional-looking drum brakes, except
that they had an electric motor to adjust them rather than the little
mechanical wheel. For a parking brake, they ran these little motors to
the end to tighten the brake shoes against the drums. And of course, it
had regenerative braking for the front wheels.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Roger Stockton wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
Is the Sunrise a Front Wheel Drive?
It was FWD (Front Wheel Drive); Geo Metro front, Dodge Neon rear. The
front motor caused the battery weight to be in back, making it
tail-heavy. This caused odd handling, different wheel sizes front and
rear, unbalanced braking, etc.
We chose to convert it to rear wheel drive. This shifts the battery
weight to the front, to provide more normal handling. But it limits the
cars we can choose as donors; there are relatively few rear wheel drive
cars any more.
Not at all; a FWD front-end works just fine whether the Sunrise is
front or rear-wheel driven.
Yes, it does -- except that almost all FWD cars use McPherson strut
suspension. This is cheap and light, but has the drawback of higher tire
scrub with suspension travel. The central battery tunnel lends itself to
double A-arm suspension.
If Lee is planning on a T-bird rear end (IIRC), then perhaps the
approach most considerate of the builder is to use the front end from
the same donor.
That's what we are looking at right now. It makes things much easier to
get both front and rear from the same car. Tire sizes, brake balancing,
suspension tuning, etc. is all worked out for you. The T'bird/Cougar has
double A-arm front suspension, just like the Ford Mustang II which is so
popular with the hot-rod community; and the independent rear suspension
setup which works well for the motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick wrote:
I'll second everything Phil has said. The Volvo 240 series brakes are
exactly like the ones Phil described on the 140, and I doubt that the
drag on any of these brakes could be measured with a torque wrench. In
fact, with the tire off the ground, I can give it a good heave and it
will spin several times before stopping.
That's exactly what you want to happen. Actually, if it only spins
"several" times, then it is likely that the brakes are not dragging, but
that the wheel bearings are providing most of the drag.
If the brakes and wheel bearings are good, it would spin like a bicycle
tire; give it a good spin by hand, and it would keep spinning for up to
a minute.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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John,
On the FAQ page where thes two ways of charging are listed there is a
statement that the float charge is 2.17 Volts per Cell adjustment for the
temperature as above.
Beano--1981 Ford Escort EV
Ted Sanders
From: "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 22:12:06 -0500
I'm trying to get a better understanding of flooded lead acid batteries
and the concept of state of charge.
Following are two questions and answers from the US Battery web site
(http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm)
Q: How to charge USBMC deep cycle batteries.
A: There are numerous correct ways to charge the batteries. Typically,
charge at C÷10 amperes, (where C = the 20 hour capacity of the system
expressed in Ampere Hours) until the battery voltage rises to 2.583 Volts
per cell (i.e. 7.75 volts for a 6V battery). Hold this voltage constant
for 2 to 4 hours, and stop charging. A similar method would be to charge
at the following upper limits and terminate the charge when the time limit
is reached:
* Charge Current = C÷10 Amperes
* Charge Voltage = 2.583 Volts per Cell
* Charge Time = 10 Hours Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the
voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase by the
same amount for temperatures below 80°F.
Q: What is the float voltage for standby applications?
A: 2.17 Volts per Cell adjustment for the temperature as above.
How does this information relate to state of charge.
1) Assuming 80 degrees, is a fully charged battery 2.17 v, 2.583 v or
something else measured absent any load?
2) Is it appropriate to use the same temperature compensation factor when
determining state of charge as is used for charging?
John
_________________________________________________________________
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It occurs to me that if the bus bar is repeatedly vibrated even the
slightest amount, it will work harden and crack at the connection point(s).
--
Martin K
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Ford had designed the Mustang to accept the Thunderbird IRS to bolt in in place
of the solid axle (perhaps with an extra subframe?). It could be that IRS has a
continued life in newer Mustangs with the IRS option.
Single donor concept is a very good idea. Good idea to have more weight up
front, too.
>From the braking thread, another vote here for at least front disk brakes.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:55:02 PM
Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
Roger Stockton wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Is the Sunrise a Front Wheel Drive?
It was FWD (Front Wheel Drive); Geo Metro front, Dodge Neon rear. The
front motor caused the battery weight to be in back, making it
tail-heavy. This caused odd handling, different wheel sizes front and
rear, unbalanced braking, etc.
We chose to convert it to rear wheel drive. This shifts the battery
weight to the front, to provide more normal handling. But it limits the
cars we can choose as donors; there are relatively few rear wheel drive
cars any more.
> Not at all; a FWD front-end works just fine whether the Sunrise is
> front or rear-wheel driven.
Yes, it does -- except that almost all FWD cars use McPherson strut
suspension. This is cheap and light, but has the drawback of higher tire
scrub with suspension travel. The central battery tunnel lends itself to
double A-arm suspension.
> If Lee is planning on a T-bird rear end (IIRC), then perhaps the
> approach most considerate of the builder is to use the front end from
> the same donor.
That's what we are looking at right now. It makes things much easier to
get both front and rear from the same car. Tire sizes, brake balancing,
suspension tuning, etc. is all worked out for you. The T'bird/Cougar has
double A-arm front suspension, just like the Ford Mustang II which is so
popular with the hot-rod community; and the independent rear suspension
setup which works well for the motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://new.mail.yahoo.com
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The latest Camaro, Mustang, Charger, and Corvette all use multi-piston calipers
(the Mustang and Camaro had them available in the 60's).
Now for the EV content: I can see multi piston brakes would tend to have less
drag than single piston brakes. It is not clear to me, though, that there is
any real performance benefit. Are they inherently lighter or something?
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:18:42 PM
Subject: RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
...I expect that many performance-oriented vehicles will use multi-piston
calipers (perhaps excluding those from North American manufacturers ;^).
Multi-piston calipers are also commonplace on most sportbikes.
...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
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On 15 Feb 2007 at 22:06, Ian Hooper wrote:
> So far the plans are fairly modest - a series 1 MX5 (Miata) with a
> Curtis 1231, an ADC 9", and ~10kWh of NiMH batteries.
I was with you until that last part. In my world, the word "modest" doesn't
quite describe 10 kWh of NiMH batteries - especially the cost! What brand
and type of NiMH are you considering?-
Anyway, welcome. ;-)
We have several other members from Australia. Show of hands?
> Being a small sports car, I'm really hoping to avoid the weight of
> lead acid.
I'm a human, not a small sports car, but I prefer to avoid that too. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Could you perhaps cut a spline on outside of shaft / inside of sleeve?
On 2/15/07, thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee,
> The adhesive to attach it to the steel would be
> challenging. The steel
> shaft would "wind up" under torque, so the composite
> tube would need to
> have the same torque stiffness, or the adhesive
> joint between them would
> "peel away" from one end to the other.
you're way ahead of me Lee, I hadn't even thought of
this. (I think you really mean shear though don't
you?).
I'm not sure it is such a problem though, essentially
the force generated by the torque must pass through
the adhesive bond from the shaft to the sleeve. You
want to ensure there is enough area of adhesive
involved in transmitting the force. The relative
stiffness of the shaft and sleeve will have some
influence but much more significant will be how
ductile is the adhesive. The adhesive needs to be able
to spread the load before it fails.
> but adhesives are
> not my specialty.
Nor mine. We used to buy cloth and resins from SP
systems in Isle of Wight, UK. The tech support people
were very good (but that was 20 years ago). You can
try asking them or a similar company for advice.
> Measure
> their stress-strain (what torque for what
> deflection) to failure.
This will tell you the ultimate strength of the
assembly which I don't think is that usefull to you
because the failure mode of a rotating shaft will
almost certainly be fatigue and the fatigue strenght
isn't neccessarily proportional to the ultimate
strength.
For example a stress range of 65N/mm2 would give you
about 1e8 cycles to failure in unwelded steel and
about 5e6 cycles in an undressed full pen weld but
only about 1e6 cycles to failure in a weld with a root
gap. All three situations would give the same ultimate
strength but up to 100 times variation in fatigue
life.
I think you'd be better of doing a little FE analysis
to see what stress levels you have at the critical
locations and then doing some hand calcs to predict
fatigue life.
I've made a quick and dirty 5 minute FE analysis of a
1m long, 100mm diameter, 6mm wall thickness shaft with
a sleeved joint. I'll email the stress plots to you.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> thomas ward wrote [lots more good advice]:
>
> Thanks again, Thomas. I'm interested in trying your
> idea to use a
> composite tube and epoxy to connect the cut ends of
> the axles. If it
> works, it could be a better solution than new custom
> axles ($300+ each)
> or the machining required to put new splines on the
> cut end (the
> opposite end's CV joint doesn't come off; which
> complicates things).
>
> Here's my EE's naive take on this ME problem.
>
> A composite torque tube would be wound like a toilet
> paper tube; with
> fibers at a 45 deg. angle, 2 or more layers
> spiraling in opposite
> directions.
>
> The adhesive to attach it to the steel would be
> challenging. The steel
> shaft would "wind up" under torque, so the composite
> tube would need to
> have the same torque stiffness, or the adhesive
> joint between them would
> "peel away" from one end to the other.
>
> It would probably be easier to use a steel tube,
> since it could be more
> easily matched to the stiffness of the existing
> steel axle.
>
> I don't know what we'd use for the adhesive between
> the two. I imagine
> the auto industry has inspired dozens of candidates,
> but adhesives are
> not my specialty.
>
> So, my thought is to do some testing. Buy some 3/8"
> long extensions for
> a socket wrench; they should be hardened similar to
> the axle. Measure
> their stress-strain (what torque for what
> deflection) to failure. Cut
> one, weld it, and test again. Cut one, glue it with
> a steel tube, and
> test again. Also try brazing it with a steel tube,
> and epoxying it with
> a composite fiberglass tube. See what the results
> are!
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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John Wayland's website has the option to post comments about articles
he's written. It hasn't been terribly useful, most of the comments are
either spam, or "How can I build my own EV?" type questions. Only a few
comments are actually about the post.
Right now, I delete the spam and the newbie posts. I hate doing that,
but I don't have the time to introduce several dozen people a month to
the EV world. What do you all think should be done?
I see a few options:
1. Disable the comment section. John likes the idea of it, but its
really not being used.
2. Have a boilerplate reply to these types of inquiries that has a list
of links and suggestions on where to start looking. (Anyone want to
write one, or can you suggest a website that serves the same purpose?)
It looks like the Car and Driver article featuring Wayland will hit
newsstands shortly, so I expect a big uptick in traffic to the website.
John's been learning html and writing his own content for the site, but
images of his cars, videos or articles written by others about him or
his vehicles are always appreciated. Feel free to email anything you
have to me.
If there are any HTML layout masters who would be willing to spare a few
minutes let me know. Right now the mainpage has one button that has a
font that doesn't match the others, and a really old school table based
layout that could be cleaned up.
Thanks
Mark Farver
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