EV Digest 6430
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV digest 6427
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV digest 6425
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV digest 6429
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Contact info for EVDL (was: First post)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery charger recommendation
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV digest 6429
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Exide Orbitals anyone?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: First post
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV digest 6429
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: EV digest 6429
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: First post
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV digest 6429
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EV digest 6425
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV digest 6427
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV digest 6429
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Since Crystal wants a higher roof and does not need the volume, the extra
drag of the Ultravan's width is a waste and the lower roof another serious
drawback - the Sprinter seems more in line with what she wants.
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6427
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> That Corvair Ultravan is ginormous!! I don't want to drive something
> that big; plus I don't need that much room.
It *looks* big, doesn't it? But:
Ultravan Sprinter (high roof, long wheelbase version)
height 96" 102"
width 96" 78"
length 264" 263"
Even the shortest wheelbase Sprinter is 197" long, so there's not as much
difference as you'd think (except in width). Sprinters are *big* vans!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Care to tell how the Ultravan can go 2 times further on the same batteries
while it is a whopping 18 inches wider and only 6 inches lower (according
your numbers)?
I would think that Freeway drag would mainly be air resistance and the
Ultravan certainly has more than the Sprinter.
BTW, I am fairly sure that Mercedes made (or still makes) a Sprinter van, is
this the same vehicle?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 12:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6425
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There's a company that specializes in Sprinter camper vans; it's at
> sportsmobile.com. I have considered a VW, as I like the form factor,
> but everyone I ask says the parts are uber-expensive and it's
> difficult to find competent professionals to work on them. That is one
> of the big problems with a vehicle like the Winnebago Rialta
> (Winnebago Industries is an Iowa company), which is built on a VW
> chassis; lots of complaints about that vehicle and the annoyance of
servicing it.
Just be aware that the Sprinter *is* the VW Eurovan, with a different
nameplate! So most comments about the VWs apply to the Sprinters, too.
The main problems are that VW has mediocre quality control, parts are
expensive because the exchange rate with Germany is bad, customer service is
spotty, and the dealers don't see many of them and so aren't very
knowledgeable about fixing them.
Winnebago has an even worse record for quality control and service.
My experience is that you'll have a good vehicle once you find and fix all
the loose screws and assembly errors yourself, and do your own maintenance
to keep the dealer's stooges away from it. :-)
> Is there a comparable mini-van from Toyota or Honda that is available
> in the United States?
Nothing new; minivans have evolved into car-like things that aren't any good
for hauling or camping.
>> I would consider making it a hybrid...
> I've been considering hybrid as well. One poster suggested bio diesel,
> but I need to study up on the conversion requirements first. Can I
> make a solar-electric-biodiesel hybrid? Or is that just getting
> ridiculously complicated?
The Sprinters already come with a diesel engine, which will run on service
station biodiesel as-is. As others have posted, there is some rigamarole to
use straight vegetable oil, or used fryer oil, but this is mostly fuel
processing that you do outside the vehicle.
>> Google "ultravan"...
> I'll look up this "ultravan" to see what I can find. I've never heard
> of it before now.
They're neat vehicles. Certainly cheaper and easier to work on than a
Sprinter, and would go twice as far on the same amount of batteries.
Their national convention is in Iowa this summer, I think, so you could see
them "in person".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
So if you only need to get more, take a motor, a true electric motor
from train,
That big thing would be a dog. I need rpm and for it to get to a high
rpm rapidly. It might have plenty of power, but it doesn't have
performance.
Example: U-Haul truck with a V-10. Decent power. No performance.
Semi truck is in the same boat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They have a short one with a length of 118" and wheelbase of 99" -
just not in the newest versions. As recently as the 2005 or 2006
model, you can get the really short one with a 6ft internal height.
But that's neither here nor there. I'd be interested in seeing these
Ultravans, especially if I could get one for an exceptionally low
price. Remember, this is going to be my only home for quite some time
and it will need to be reliable enough to last at least until I get
all my student loans paid off. The cheaper I can get a good vehicle,
the more I'll be able to spend on refitting it for alternative energy
sources.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 5:46:01 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6427
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That Corvair Ultravan is ginormous!! I don't want to drive
something that big; plus I don't need that much room.
It *looks* big, doesn't it? But:
Ultravan Sprinter (high roof, long wheelbase version)
height 96" 102"
width 96" 78"
length 264" 263"
Even the shortest wheelbase Sprinter is 197" long, so there's not
as much difference as you'd think (except in width). Sprinters are
*big* vans!
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you want 1/4 mile times? Top speed? Go around corners?
For me, who likes to go around corners, I would get 4 wheel drive, each
wheel by a separate motor (not hub motors to keep unsprung weight down). Fat
tires for optimal contact patch. I seem to recall that electrical
differential is not required (not sure where I heard this though). Then you
need a ton of batteries - pick your favorite brand of lithium.
So what's up? Are you just dreaming or are you going to build something?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: February 15, 2007 10:52 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
EV1, Tesla, Tango
If you had one of these(or all of them), and you wanted to mod them for even
more 1/4 mile performance; how would you do so?
If you could buy an electric Vette or Mustang or import; how would you mod
it for more performance?
The motor is a motor. Swap it out for another?
Mod the controller/inverter? Highly unlikely. Most likely impossible?
Anyone modded their Zilla for 450v and 2500+ amps?
Probably will never happen in the history of man. If I had a large sum of
money; I'd bet on it.
Batteries? Can't really pump up the voltage when already at the limits of
the controller/inverter.
So in a plausible future time if EV's were common place; would it be
possible to mod them for increased performance?
-----
Bonus story
I was at work sitting in my truck noticing all the other trucks in the
parking lot and the stark contrast to all the Hondas in the parking lot. I
thought "I ought to get one of those to commute to work in."
I'll convert my truck over to electric. Drive the Honda when the weather is
nice. I want an ~$800 Honda. Strip it down to the bare unibody, put it on
a rotissery, inspect it and paint it a nice color inside and out, and
underneath. Meticulously reassemble it. Need a $2,000 aftermarket block
for it(at what hp limit does the stock block fail and what is it's mode of
failure?). Stroker kit(crank/rods/pistons)$1,400. Aftermarket head(too
much).
Turbo(cheap). Megasquirt for the EFI(fair). 450+hp minimum. 600+hp
desired. Need a trans that's up to it. Biggest drag radials I can fit.
Commuting to work in my Honda just like everyone else... Good times. Get
the Stang up to about 1400+hp on E85(~105 octane).
"2,000hp" car on the street. Though really, they have tuned down to
"~1,000hp"...
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINLOW.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINHIGH.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/
I see their 3,000hp motor and think "how do you mod it for 3,500?"
Then when that's done "how about 4,000hp?" More is never enough.
What size motor for the electric truck? How many? I want maximum
performance and range. My commute is ~20+ miles at 70+mph one way.
Can't charge at work. No lights, no nothing in that parking lot and fenced
off and far, far away from any building. GM says the battery doesn't exist.
They don't fancy the thought of ~15,000 A123's all interconnected. Now if
A123 made a large format battery... Why can't they and what's stopping them
considering all those millions of dollars they have recently received? Is
their battery scalable? Can it be made in any size and shape? How about 1'
square cubes? What would be the most desirable, convenient, and useful
size/shape? A 12 volt A123 deep cycle SLA battery? What year do you
predict lithium will be able to compete with lead on price?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Feb 2007 at 20:39, Mike Willmon wrote:
> You can find the list commands here: http://www ...
I don't wish to cause any controversy, nor do I want to seem ungrateful for
Mike Thompson's lonstanding support of the EVDL, but his page isn't
regularly updated and contains obsolete information. In fact, AFAIK, Mike
hasn't participated in the EVDL for about 5 years. (If you're listening,
Mike, please accept my apology and correct me if I'm wrong about that.)
The official support address for the EVDL is
http://www.evdl.org/help/
I maintain this page. It's regularly updated and contains the correct email
addresses for obtaining additional support. Mike's and the other more-or-
less unofficial and impromptu pages are appreciated, but very few are
regularly updated, and most contain incorrect information.
I recommend and request that EVDL members refer those who need help to the
official support website linked above. Please bookmark it. Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
A smart charger will repay you many times over in longer service life for
the battery. However, with no intent to deprecate the charger's creator
(for whom I have a world of respect), a PFC charger doesn't really fall into
the "smart" category. Its charge control is fairly simple. Adding
individual battery regulators brings the charge control about up to the
level of a $50 Cliplight (NAPA) 12 volt charger.
Also, the PFC is a non-isolated charger, meaning a higher risk of electrical
shock or electrocution. The amount by which this risk is higher, whether
slightly or significantly, is of some controversy. I don't want to get into
a discussion of it, so I'll leave it at that. I will mention that it is
VERY important to connect the charger input to a GFI, which is NOT included
in your purchase of the charger.
If I'm not mistaken, The PFC also not approved by UL or any other regulating
or testing authority, which may or may not matter to you.
I hate to break it to you, but for a capable EV charger, $1700 is CHEAP.
The PFC is cheap because of the limitations listed above. One thing it has
in spades, though, is raw power. It will charge very quickly, and for many
people on this list, that and the price have been the primary factors in the
purchase decision. The PFC is a popular charger.
At the other end of the spectrum, the Mercedes of chargers is the Brusa
range offered by Metric Mind. Someone once remarked that the insides look
like they were designed by a Borg. ;-) They are not cheap; but see above for
comments on the value of high quality, sophisticated chargers.
Another smart charger alternative, and isolated for safety, might be the
Delta-Q chargers sold by Canev.com. They max out at 72 volts, IIRC, so
they're just about ideal for your application. They're not as powerful as
the PFC, so depending on your needs, you might want two 36 volt models
instead of one 72 volt.
Have you looked at the other PFC chargers, by Russco? They're also not
isolated, and I think the charge control is about on the same level as the
PFC, but they do include a built in GFI for safety.
A final inexpensive alternative would be to use two 36 volt or three 24 volt
smart chargers. There are several brands, many quite sophisticated in
charge control, usually UL approved, and isolated for safety (since they're
a consumer product with a substantial market). These can be relatively
cost effective, because they're produced in quantity for the wheelchair and
golf car markets.
When using multiple chargers it's important to monitor them closely to make
sure that all of them are working. If one fails without your knowledge, you
can end up destroying the uncharged or undercharged modules in your battery
pack.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds like a cool idea. If I could engineer it properly, the
extra panels could slide out when I'm parked and then slide back in
while in motion.
Exactly how "cold" are we talking for the sunny-day charging? I grew
up in Iowa, so cold to me is very different than cold to someone who
grew up in California.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 11:21:50 AM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First post
If you go the AC route and higher voltage, then you will need 28 X
12 volt for 336 volts. I think using solar would keep you from ever
being stranded. Nice thing about the higher voltage is that it
keeps wire diameter down to a nice small size from the panels.
Check the dimensions of a 10 watt solar panel and multiply by 28
panels. AC inverter/controllers have a built in DC-DC converter for
your 12 volt loads so will not need seperate panels for that
voltage. If you can fit (28) 30 watt panels then with 9 hours
exposure would generate 7500 watts and would recharge in about 4
days. Solar panels preduce the most power on sunny COLD days. With
this in mind, I would build a rack for your roof that would allow
air to pass under the panels. This would allow you to increase the
amount of panels by 50 % allowing for a little side to side
overhang (about 5" each side) and at the end of the van give you a
nice little 4 to 6 foot sun awning.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, sign me up. I'll never have to come up with the $20k anyway. =) I
would have liked to hear the demo car instead if the funky jazz in the
background on the video though. However, if they ever deliver for anywhere
near the price they advertise, I would be interested.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:15 PM
Subject: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
http://www.flytheroad.com/
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com <http://www.evalbum.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
Another idea I'll suggest is to weld the coupler, but instead of welding
the ends to the shaft, you drill holes in the coupler, and weld inside
the holes. This distributes the heat/welds around the shafts and
doesn't create a single break line at the welds.
Hmm; that might help. I'm no welder, so I don't know.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last I checked the Orbital prices (which was a while ago), they were $98
each.
Mark Ward wrote:
I can get Exide Orbitals wholesale ($100 ea. approx)through where I
work. Has anyone had experience good or bad with them?
I will be needing batts in the near future...hopefully!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If all you want is inexpensive, cheap, and as low of cost as possible - then
do not do an EV conversion. A better option is to purchase a used EV from
EVTradin post. Even better is to purchase a Geo Metro or little 3cyl car as
it is much cheaper than an EV in the long run (we have had this discussion
before and some agree and other disagree). Until EVs are mass produced they
are not cheaper.
However, if you want to "save your corner of the world" and help to set an
example for others, or disconnect you from oil dependency by all means
convert or purchase an EV.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: February 15, 2007 8:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: First post
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric for
quite some time but only started seriously researching it last week. I'm not
really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get from point A to point
B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35 years' experience and has
agreed to help me do a conversion, and although he seemed to be somewhat
familiar with the terminology and other information I've learned from my
research, I don't think he's ever actually done an EV conversion before. But
he said he was willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many
details as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm for EVs
in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting information about
what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of gloom-and-doom nay-sayers
who insist none of the effort is worth the end result. I am convinced this
is something I want to do, but I have to get the logistics worked out and
figure out how I can make it work for my situation. Perhaps some of you
could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning how to do
this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars as a
rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not looking to convert
a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted by those as many EV
enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to convert is something like a Dodge
Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get the high
roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from floor to
ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the front
driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk, just modest
camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to propel
the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as possible given
the current battery technologies available (perhaps Lithium-Polymer, as
suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his conversion in detail), but I'm
not pre-occupied with any of the performance-type concerns of sports car
people. 55-65 mph would be plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle
while going up a hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size
dogs, plus my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards,
and I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the one
that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving necessarily as
I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but instead to recharge on
the days I'm NOT driving, such as while sitting in a national park or
campground. So I need to find instructions on how to actually hook up the
batteries to roof-mounted solar panels rather than stationary panels at a
home location. It will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper
van, as I will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm sure
it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle, taking
photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my laptop and
wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available, but I don't want
to have to rely on any outside sources during my travels. I realize that I
won't be able to drive every day because some days will be "charging only"
days, and I know I'm not going to be able to drive for hours and hours
without stopping (unless I can find some feasible batteries that provide
more range than what I've been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle
will be for long- distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's
for driving a couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging the
batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off the next day
with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing multiple things:
freelancing, operating a website, and working on a doctorate, and I plan to
travel only where it's not cold (spring/ summer/fall in colder climates,
year-round in places with warm climates). But becoming energy-independent is
very important to me and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty and
ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of negative
responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I don't care, I'm
going to do it anyway, so the more helpful information I can collect the
better. I will find a way to make it work successfully; it's just
non-negotiable. I won't give up until I figure it out; it's an integral part
of my overall mission. If I need to make certain concessions in some places
to make it work, then I'll consider that once all alternatives have proven
ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of batteries I
can put into the thing without it weighing me down so much that it negates
their value. I also would prefer not to blow up, of course. ;-) From what
I've read so far, it appears that for my application, AC would be better
than DC, but correct me if you think I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's
possible to mount batteries underneath the van, as there's extra space not
available in a small car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries
in the truck bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc?
What's the maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to need
12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it possible
to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch between? For example,
to run the vehicle off one set while charging the other via solar? This may
sound silly, but I haven't found any info yet that specifically says this is
impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I need
to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost (except the
solar, as I've already found the info I need about that) and where to get
the best deal on the electric conversion parts would be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn more
about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't care what anybody says, to me, it's just plain wrong. And if
I were one of the boneheads responsible for milking the public like
that I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive myself. But, I
digress, this is not the right forum for such a discussion. I guess
I'll just have to invent my own form of energy and never tell anyone
it exists! ;-) But of course, I'd feel compelled to spread the
discovery to the world, and I'd end up shooting myself in the foot.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
Welcome to Econ 101!
The used cooking oil USED to be a liability that the resturants
had to pay
someone to haul off because it had very little "value" (other than
soap
making and the like). They were thrilled when some odd "greenie"
would come by to
take the stuff to put in his/her diesel Mercedes....Now that more
folks are
burning it in their vehicles and the "value" is going up, there's
a price
attached to it....This value will make darn certain that this oil
won't get
thrown away anymore....
The same forces WILL affect us in the EV scene if these vehicles
really
catch on (as we hope they will). You think batteries are
expensive NOW? Wait
'til every tenth car is using them as "fuel"....Get enough of us
out there and
the local/state govts will figure out we're getting a "free ride"
on the
local infrastucture by avoiding paying gas taxes and start coming
up with
"permits" and the like to get OUR pound of flesh. At the moment,
it's sort of nice
to be "unique, odd and early adopters", flying under the taxman's
radar ( at
1.6 cents a mile!)....
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
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--- Begin Message ---
That's also what I thought. The Sprinter is branded Mercedes in
Europe and Dodge in the United States. It's supposed to be quite a
nicely made vehicle from what I've read. But I've never seen one in
person yet; they're not common around here as far as I can tell, but
I'll keep looking.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 6:53:52 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6425
Lee Hart wrote:
Just be aware that the Sprinter *is* the VW Eurovan, with a
different nameplate! So most comments about the VWs apply to the
Sprinters, too.
Lee, are you sure about that? My research has indicated that the
Dodge Sprinter is made by Daimler/Chrysler using a Mercedes Benz
Turbo Diesel and a heavy duty (1 ton) RWD van chassis. That's
nothing like the VW Vanagon/Eurovan FWD design.
Nick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Crystal,
First big question, how much money are you planning on spending, not
counting the base vehicle? $100,000, $50,000, $20,000 ??
Your budget has a big effect on your options. For example, if you are
planning on spending less than $50,000 then Lion/LiPol batteries are
probably out of the equation.
> First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars
> as a rule, but for this application it's not possible.
No they don't have to be, you just get more range for your money in small
cars. Large vehicles run into the problem of diminishing returns.
Keeping it simple, there is a lot of stuff, commonly called losses, that
consumes energy in a vehicle.
To keep things simple you can assume that the electrical components
(motor, controller, etc.) and transmission will use up 25% of the energy
coming from the batteries.
The other 75% is used to overcome friction; rolling resistance and
aerodynamic drag.
If you double the frontal area (how big it looks from the front) of a
vehcile you double the aerodynamic drag.
The dodge sprinter has about twice the frontal area of a small car.
If you double the weight, you double the rolling resistance.
If you do both, then it can easily take 3 times as much energy to go down
the road at 55 mph. At a guess this is what you can expect with the
Sprinter, about 1/3 the range per pound of batteries compared to a small
car.
So a thousand pounds of batteries will take you three times as far in a
small car as they will in a large truck.
Adding another 1,000 pounds of batteries increases your weight and
increases the amount of energy needed to go 55 mph, so doubling your
battery weight usually will give you less than double the range.
That's overly simplified, but hopefully you get the idea.
> I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the
> one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
> necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but
> instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
> sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
> instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-mounted
> solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
> will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van,
If the panels are mounted on the roof, then there is no reason you can't
use them while driving. They just won't make much difference.
> Although the vehicle will be for long-
> distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a
> couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
> photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging
> the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
> the next day with a full charge.
You might be expecting a bit much. Let's assume for the moment that you
can't afford LiPol batteries and are going to use plain old Lead-Acid
batteries.
Assuming you stuff 2,400 lbs worth of them in the sprinter, you'd get
maybe 40 miles range at 50 mph. I'm probably being overly optimistic
though.
So driving down the highway for a "couple hours" isn't going to happen.
You could probably drive for a couple hours if you can afford $100,000
worth of LiPol batteries though.
But then comes the part about charging them.
Assuming you cover the roof in solar panels, you should be able to fit
1,000 watts worth of panels on it. Assuming you make racks that allow you
to tilt the panels up to get full charging from the sun, it will take you
about 30 hours worth of full sun (5 days to a week) to recharge the
Lead-Acid batteries and several times that long to recharge the LiPol
(because they would hold more energy).
> I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
> negative responses from people who say it's just not possible,
What is possible depends on how deep your pockets are and how high your
expectations are.
> bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the
> maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
> batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to
> need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
Depends on the batteries, 6V Golf cart batteries give you the best bang
for the buck. They last longer (number of years) than most 12V batteries
too.
> How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc?
Depends on the motor/controller. You need enough in series to equal the
voltage you want and as many in parallel as you can fit (weight/size)
> Is it possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
> between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging
> the other via solar?
It's possible, but conterproductive. Lead acid batteries actually deliver
less energy at high current draws than they do at low current. If you
have two sets of batteries and use them both at the same time, then you
only draw 1/2 the current from each set and will end up getting MORE total
energy out of them than if you used them one at a time.
You can also have the solar panels connected while draining them, this
will simply reduce the current coming from the batteries by the amount the
panels are producing (the energy from the panels will end up going to the
motor rather than the batteries)
> I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I
> need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
> (except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that)
> and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would
> be most appreciated.
For something like this, it's better to decide how much you can afford and
then figure out what you can do for the money, than the other way around.
I mean it doesn't do any good to spec out a system that will cost
$120,000-$150,000 if you can't possibly afford more than $30,000.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen quite a few on the road - though not up close. They look like
a very good design for a cargo vehicle, although from what I've read
quite expensive. I've even seen UPS driving Sprinters.
Nick
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That's also what I thought. The Sprinter is branded Mercedes in Europe
and Dodge in the United States. It's supposed to be quite a nicely made
vehicle from what I've read. But I've never seen one in person yet;
they're not common around here as far as I can tell, but I'll keep looking.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 6:53:52 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6425
Lee Hart wrote:
Just be aware that the Sprinter *is* the VW Eurovan, with a different
nameplate! So most comments about the VWs apply to the Sprinters, too.
Lee, are you sure about that? My research has indicated that the Dodge
Sprinter is made by Daimler/Chrysler using a Mercedes Benz Turbo
Diesel and a heavy duty (1 ton) RWD van chassis. That's nothing like
the VW Vanagon/Eurovan FWD design.
Nick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water
>Lee,
> Care to tell how the Ultravan can go 2 times further on the same batteries
> while it is a whopping 18 inches wider and only 6 inches lower (according
> your numbers)?
It's just a guess, of course. I was basing it on the Ultravan being extremely
well streamlined (even the bottom is smooth), and about half the weight. And,
that they got 15 mpg on the same engine that in the Corvair cars delivered 20
mpg.
But the Ultravan is so old and rare that it is mainly a curiosity. An
interesting idea, but not likely to be practical.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cor van de Water
>Since Crystal wants a higher roof and does not need the volume, the extra
>drag of the Ultravan's width is a waste and the lower roof another serious
>drawback - the Sprinter seems more in line with what she wants.
The Ultravan is *taller* inside than the Sprinter, despite the lower overall
height. This is because it has no frame; it is a monocoque, like an airplane or
unibody car.
Yes, it is pretty wide. It's a motorhome, after all; meant to live in more than
to be driven. But did you look at a picture of one? They are probably the most
streamlined motorhome ever built, with a Cd better than most cars.
Again, this is just a curiosity; not a realistic choice.
--
Lee Hart
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--- Begin Message ---
Crystal,
Let's just look at the specs of the solar panel manufacturers:
All solar panels are spec'ed at 25 deg Celcius (cell temp!) while receiving
1000W per square meter irradiation.
That means that they need to blow almost freezing temp air over the panels
to keep them at spec'ed parameters.
They do that, because output voltage drops with higher temps, so the colder,
the more power.
>From freezing ambient to a hot summer day can drop 20% of voltage, so you
should count on 80% output on a hot sunny wind-still summer day, unless
panels are tilted and the hot air underneath can escape by convection.
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6429
That sounds like a cool idea. If I could engineer it properly, the extra
panels could slide out when I'm parked and then slide back in while in
motion.
Exactly how "cold" are we talking for the sunny-day charging? I grew up in
Iowa, so cold to me is very different than cold to someone who grew up in
California.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 6:55 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: February 16, 2007 11:21:50 AM CST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: First post
>
>
> If you go the AC route and higher voltage, then you will need 28 X
> 12 volt for 336 volts. I think using solar would keep you from ever
> being stranded. Nice thing about the higher voltage is that it keeps
> wire diameter down to a nice small size from the panels.
> Check the dimensions of a 10 watt solar panel and multiply by 28
> panels. AC inverter/controllers have a built in DC-DC converter for
> your 12 volt loads so will not need seperate panels for that voltage.
> If you can fit (28) 30 watt panels then with 9 hours exposure would
> generate 7500 watts and would recharge in about 4 days. Solar panels
> preduce the most power on sunny COLD days. With this in mind, I would
> build a rack for your roof that would allow air to pass under the
> panels. This would allow you to increase the amount of panels by 50 %
> allowing for a little side to side overhang (about 5" each side) and
> at the end of the van give you a nice little 4 to 6 foot sun awning.
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
> Umm, skinny doesn't ALWAYS win. There is more to LRR than just the width.
> If all else is equal, skinny is /probably/ better, but not necessarily.
There is also finding a tire sized for the weight load of the vehicle.
Putting on a undersized tire (per vehicle weight) not only is unsafe, but
can cause the tire to act as if it were underinflated. (Again, more heat,
and possible premature failure.) Over-inflating tires (above manufacturer
ratings) might save on fuel, but can make the vehicle less managable.
Keeping tires properly inflated can make more difference than the tire
construction.
"In order to meet <CAFE> demands, <original equipment> tires are often
designed with a priority on reducing weight and rolling resistance and are
molded with slightly thinner sidewalls, shallower tread depths and use low
rolling resistance constructions and tread compounds." "Now, lets explore a
scenario where a High Performance replacement radial tire has a whopping 20%
increase in rolling resistance."
"If the vehicle equipped with standard Original Equipment low rolling
resistance passenger tires normally provided 25 mpg in the city and 30 mpg
on the highway, installing tires with 20% greater rolling resistance would
only drop fuel mileage by a calculated 3% (to 24.25 mpg) in the city, and a
calculated 5% (to 28.5 mpg) on the highway."
"Additionally, the easiest way to reduce rolling resistance to enhance fuel
economy is to make certain that the tires are properly inflated."
http://www.tirerack.com/tires-techpage-1/29.shtml
"Environmental Protection Agency standard that a 1% loss of fuel efficiency
occurs for every 2 PSI of air under the maximum level."
http://www.cmu.edu/cmnews/extra/050921_tire.html
BTW, except in the most extreme cases (eg: going from stock to racing tires)
the drag during acceleration won't be a great concern. Where you gain your
advantage is in cruising at a steady speed.
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