EV Digest 6438
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Thunder-Sky LiIon Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Copper buss bars...
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV digest 6434
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Another day at the races.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Looking for crimp dies for very small ring terminals
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Copper buss bars...
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Digest mode
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Vexing issue w/ battery/controller.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Victor: Do you have the Ovonic's Charging Profile?
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Dealers in the US and Canada for Reva.
by "Prasad Khurd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EV Paraglider
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Commutator Controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Copper buss bars...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV digest 6436
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by "D3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) feasibility of lead acid batteries for plug in hybrid
by "sushrut patgaonkar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV Paraglider
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: First post
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I got the batteries from everspring in HK, the guys name is Keith Lau.
45 x 80Ah cells (with interconnects) cost me about AUD$10K including import
duties and transportation. Its the best deal I have seen for large format LiIon
cells. The cells are 3.2V nominal and require a BMS.
So far, after a few test drives the pack is performing very well. Time will tell
if they live up to the forecast cycles.
Website http://www.everspring.net/product-battery.htm
I will put up more info and pics on my website in the next few weeks once I have
finished making all the BMS modules.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.dilkesmotors.com
>-----Original Message-----
>I have just installed 45 ThunderSky TS-LFP80AHA batteries in my car and taken
>it
>for a couple of test runs.
>These batteries are GREAT!!!
>Half the weight and at least 1.5 x the range of my old lead pack. Much less
>voltage sag under acceleration also.
>I am never gonna tow lead again... not ever!
>Just a matter of finishing installing and fine tuning the BMS.
>Regards, Rod Dilkes
>www.dilkesmotors.com
Do you have a spec or a link for the batteries? What kind of BMS are you going
to use?
Frank T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, thanks for the info everyone. I've got a Raptor
600, so I'll be going with the 3/32" copper, although
I don't expect to be drawing more than 150A or so most
of the time.
Since I'll be going a bit on the high side with the
thickness, I probably will cover it in heat shrink. I
don't like to think of all that bare copper just
waiting for some unfortunate tool to land on it...
Andrew
--- Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:56:23 -0800
> To: [email protected]
> From: Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
>
> At 08:36 AM 2/16/2007, you wrote:
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
> >system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to
> use
> >copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> of
> >the shorter connections.
> >
> >I was just wondering, what size copper do I need to
> >use for this? I was thinking something along the
> lines
> >of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
> >
> >The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> >thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> pipe
> >I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> could
> >find thick-wall tubing?
> >
> >Any input would be appreciated.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >Andrew
>
> Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C
> contractor and have
> them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide
> strips. Drill your
> connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends
> and insulate the
> center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2"
> shorter than the
> copper strap.
>
> Mike Brown
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books *
> Videos * Since 1979
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:18:49 -0800
>
> If you are in the Bay Area(California) Allen Steel
> in Redwood City has
> everything you need. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:36 AM
> Subject: Copper buss bars...
>
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
> > system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to
> use
> > copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> of
> > the shorter connections.
> >
> > I was just wondering, what size copper do I need
> to
> > use for this? I was thinking something along the
> lines
> > of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
> >
> > The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> > thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> pipe
> > I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> could
> > find thick-wall tubing?
> >
> > Any input would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Andrew
> > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:54:17 -0500 (EST)
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
>
> Andrew wrote:
> >> ...wiring up my truck (120v, 9" Kostov) and
> decided to use
> >> copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> of the
> >> shorter connections... what size copper do I need
> to use?
> >> I was thinking of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1".
>
> You didn't mention your controller. The controller
> limits the battery current, which in turn decides
> how big your conductors should be.
>
> For a Curtis controller that won't draw more than a
> couple hundred amps for more than a few minutes,
> 1/16" copper is fine.
>
> For an Auburn, DCP, or other controller that can
> draw 500 amps for for several minutes, 3/32" would
> be a better choice.
>
> For a Zilla that can draw 1000 amp sustained
> currents, I wouldn't use anything thinner than 1/8".
>
> Note that it is fine to stack up several sheets of
> thinner material to get the desired total. Several
> thin sheets will be easier to get and more flexible.
>
> For example, I have a Curtis 1231C in my EV. I live
> in a small town, and the only copper I could find
> was 0.020" thick copper flashing for roofing. So, I
> made a pile of 1" x 4" strips, and used 3 per
> battery jumper (0.060" or about 1/16").
>
> Each strip has a measured resistance of 0.0005 ohms.
> 3 in parallel thus have a voltage drop of about
> 0.03v at 200 amps. Installed, the total drop is more
> like 0.05v, including the connections at each end.
> That's 10 watts at 200 amps; they get warm to the
> touch, but that's all.
>
> >> The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> >> thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> pipe
> >> I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> could
> >> find thick-wall tubing?
>
> Don't use tubing unless you're cheap or desperate.
> Its resistance is higher, since it is hardened and
> not a particularly pure copper.
>
> From: Electro Automotive
> >Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C
> contractor and have
> >them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide
> strips. Drill your
> >connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends
> and insulate the
> >center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2"
> shorter than the
> >copper strap.
>
> This will work fine. But I prefer to leave them
> bare, so they dissipate heat better. You are using a
> sub-standard size "wire", so they get warm at high
> currents. If you insulate them too much, they will
> get hot!
>
> I chose to dip mine in a solder pot to "tin" them,
> before stacking them up and bolting them on. The
> tin/lead coating protects them from corrosion.
> --
> Lee Hart
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Crystal
It is difficult to figure out what we are discussing due to your subject
line tags.
Calling your post "Re: EV digest 6434" doesn't help any of us help you.
It would be appreciated if you could be more specific.
Thanks
Roy
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=660600&bcd=EMAILFOOTERAVERAGE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This Sat, Feb 17 I went to the drag races with Dennis Berube, we just got
back from a very long day. For those of you who do not know Dennis, he has been
racing an electric dragster since 1991 and is now racing Current Eliminator V
and of course all of his competion is piston powered.
For those of you who have not been to a drag strip in a long time it's hard
to imagine just what is involved in getting a car to run consistant times for
bracket racing. The first thing Dennis does is heat the batteries starting the
day before the race.
So here we go Sat morn at 5:15 AM with warm batteries car in trailer,
trailer on truck, still dark outside, pulling out of the drive way when Dennis
stops
quick when he hears the horses complain they have no breakfast, he throws
them some food and we're off.
After about an hour or so we are at the track in line outside the gate with
about ten others waiting for them to open at 8:00 AM.
We get into the pits and get a good spot that is easy to get in and out of.
Dennis pulls the car out of the trailer and "warms it up some more" by driving
up and down the pit road a couple of times to get the motor and batteries up
to racing temp, then he charges the batteries and does it again.
Finally after checking the tires, battery temp, motor temp, controler cooling
water etc. the car is ready for the first practice run. A good run, Dennis
wants to set the car to run in the 11.90 second ET range and he had a good
reaction time of .010 seconds at the starting line, a .000 reaction time would
be a
perfect "light", quicker than that would be a red light.
The class or bracket Dennis runs is Super Pro which goes from 6.99 to 11.99.
Two more practice runs and he now has to "dial in" his car for eliminations.
First practice run is 11.891 sec
Second run 11.945 sec
Third run 11.928 sec
Now Dennis has to pick a time that he can run without going quicker or
"breaking out" so he chooses 11.90 for the first round of eliminations.
The first race, he runs a guy that dials in at 7.04 sec so now Dennis' green
light will come on 4.86 sec before the other guys and the one to the finish
line first wins. Dennis was closer to his dial in and crosses the line first
for
the win.
The second race Dennis dials a 11.95 the other guy a 10.33 so Dennis will see
his light 1.62 sec sooner but this time Dennis' reaction time is .001 sec to
quick and he gets a red light..........it's all over for this race day.
So it's a long hour back to the shop kicking yourself for leaving to early on
the starting line, but if you don't cut it close you could lose the race by
not being quick enough.
Back at the shop there are 8-10 welders sitting/waiting for repair for Monday
so off with the racing hat and on with welder repair.....still kicking
yourself of course.
Jim Ludiker......ex racer & helper
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
or does anyone have any suggestions on how to do reliable repeatable
crimps?
Um... vise-grips work great for me :^D
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for FREE.
http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some say that 1/16" is the thickest copper you will want to use. Their
thought is that any thicker may result in cracking from flex. Sorta like
the flexibility advantages of stranded vs solid wire. Maybe 2 stacked 1/16"
pieces could work?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
> Okay, thanks for the info everyone. I've got a Raptor
> 600, so I'll be going with the 3/32" copper, although
> I don't expect to be drawing more than 150A or so most
> of the time.
>
> Since I'll be going a bit on the high side with the
> thickness, I probably will cover it in heat shrink. I
> don't like to think of all that bare copper just
> waiting for some unfortunate tool to land on it...
>
> Andrew
>
> --- Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>
> > > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:56:23 -0800
> > To: [email protected]
> > From: Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
> >
> > At 08:36 AM 2/16/2007, you wrote:
> > >Hi everyone,
> > >
> > >I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
> > >system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to
> > use
> > >copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> > of
> > >the shorter connections.
> > >
> > >I was just wondering, what size copper do I need to
> > >use for this? I was thinking something along the
> > lines
> > >of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
> > >
> > >The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> > >thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> > pipe
> > >I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> > could
> > >find thick-wall tubing?
> > >
> > >Any input would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >Thanks!
> > >Andrew
> >
> > Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C
> > contractor and have
> > them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide
> > strips. Drill your
> > connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends
> > and insulate the
> > center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2"
> > shorter than the
> > copper strap.
> >
> > Mike Brown
> > Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> > Telephone 831-429-1989
> > http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books *
> > Videos * Since 1979
>
> > > From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
> > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:18:49 -0800
> >
> > If you are in the Bay Area(California) Allen Steel
> > in Redwood City has
> > everything you need. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:36 AM
> > Subject: Copper buss bars...
> >
> >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I am in the process of wiring up my truck (120v
> > > system, 9" Kostov) and I've decided that I want to
> > use
> > > copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> > of
> > > the shorter connections.
> > >
> > > I was just wondering, what size copper do I need
> > to
> > > use for this? I was thinking something along the
> > lines
> > > of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1". Does that make sense?
> > >
> > > The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> > > thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> > pipe
> > > I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> > could
> > > find thick-wall tubing?
> > >
> > > Any input would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Andrew
>
> > > Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:54:17 -0500 (EST)
> > From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Copper buss bars...
> >
> > Andrew wrote:
> > >> ...wiring up my truck (120v, 9" Kostov) and
> > decided to use
> > >> copper buss bars instead of 2/0 and lugs for some
> > of the
> > >> shorter connections... what size copper do I need
> > to use?
> > >> I was thinking of 1/16" or 3/32" by 1".
> >
> > You didn't mention your controller. The controller
> > limits the battery current, which in turn decides
> > how big your conductors should be.
> >
> > For a Curtis controller that won't draw more than a
> > couple hundred amps for more than a few minutes,
> > 1/16" copper is fine.
> >
> > For an Auburn, DCP, or other controller that can
> > draw 500 amps for for several minutes, 3/32" would
> > be a better choice.
> >
> > For a Zilla that can draw 1000 amp sustained
> > currents, I wouldn't use anything thinner than 1/8".
> >
> > Note that it is fine to stack up several sheets of
> > thinner material to get the desired total. Several
> > thin sheets will be easier to get and more flexible.
> >
> > For example, I have a Curtis 1231C in my EV. I live
> > in a small town, and the only copper I could find
> > was 0.020" thick copper flashing for roofing. So, I
> > made a pile of 1" x 4" strips, and used 3 per
> > battery jumper (0.060" or about 1/16").
> >
> > Each strip has a measured resistance of 0.0005 ohms.
> > 3 in parallel thus have a voltage drop of about
> > 0.03v at 200 amps. Installed, the total drop is more
> > like 0.05v, including the connections at each end.
> > That's 10 watts at 200 amps; they get warm to the
> > touch, but that's all.
> >
> > >> The other thing is, where do I find copper? I was
> > >> thinking about flattening some pipe, but the only
> > pipe
> > >> I can find is thin-wall. Any thoughts on where I
> > could
> > >> find thick-wall tubing?
> >
> > Don't use tubing unless you're cheap or desperate.
> > Its resistance is higher, since it is hardened and
> > not a particularly pure copper.
> >
> > From: Electro Automotive
> > >Go to a local sheet metal shop or heating and A/C
> > contractor and have
> > >them shear 1/16" thick copper sheett into 1" wide
> > strips. Drill your
> > >connecting bolt holes about 1/2" in from the ends
> > and insulate the
> > >center portion with 3/4" heat shrink tube about 2"
> > shorter than the
> > >copper strap.
> >
> > This will work fine. But I prefer to leave them
> > bare, so they dissipate heat better. You are using a
> > sub-standard size "wire", so they get warm at high
> > currents. If you insulate them too much, they will
> > get hot!
> >
> > I chose to dip mine in a solder pot to "tin" them,
> > before stacking them up and bolting them on. The
> > tin/lead coating protects them from corrosion.
> > --
> > Lee Hart
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course, we could all do are part to reduce the number of digests by
not "replying" and sending entire copies of "long posts" over and over
and over again...
We all have the previous email or digest or archives to go back to.
Leave in what you need to comment on, but insert a "<snip...> and cut
large portions out. This is to respectful and lets the reader know there
was more.
I am NOT a list admin, just someone who has been on this list for years
and is starting to consider dropping it because 10 digests a day is a
little much.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might be a loose connection where you don't expect it like a loose contactor
or bad joint on a crimp( or a bad cell & the heat does the same to that).
After an episode I'd check every connection for heat. Every battery for
voltage. Do you have an IR thermometer? Quick and safe. The resultant heat
might undo the problem and the cycle starts over again. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:51 PM
Subject: RE: Vexing issue w/ battery/controller.
>
> --- Roger Stockton <> wrote:
>
> > Bob Bath wrote:
> >
> > > After I've put about 6-9 mi. on the pack, (2-3
> > kWh
> > > or so), I get some huge battery voltage sags. I
> > mean
> > > from 146V down to 89V or so. It's just a few
> > seconds,
> > > maybe 5 at the most, so I'm not entirely fearful
> > for
> > > destroying the pack, but I've never seen this
> > before!
> >
> > You wrote not that long ago about odd E-Meter
> > readings since installing
> > the DCP1200, and as I recall you tracked it down to
> > interference from
> > the traction wiring with the higher current
> > controller. Is a new
> > problem, or the same one? Are you sure? ;^>
> >
> > > If I let the car rest an hour, the problem
> > disappears!
> Definitely the same issue, but not as bad. The
> question is whether turning down the Imax made a
> difference, or re-routing the wire made the
> difference...
> >
> > Disappears as in you can now put a further 6-9mi of
> > similar driving on
> > the pack without the sag reappearing?
> This was apparently incorrect. Shouldn't have posted
> that part.
> > >
> > > - I've turned down the current max control on the
> > > Raptor, as I only need 600A. Am I not turned down
> > > enough, and the effects of high current draws on
> > the
> > > motor are causing this? That would seem to me to
> > > affect motor amps, which I don't monitor, not
> > battery
> > > amps, though... Should I turn the max current to
> > full?
> >
> > The DCP current limit only sets battery current, not
> > motor loop current.
> > So, you've got the battery side limited to 600A, but
> > the DCP1200 will
> > still happily push more current through your motor
> > whenever the present
> > motor operating point (speed, load) allows.
> >
> > You may still have some EMI issues if you've got any
> > E-Meter wiring
> > running near the controller or the motor loop
> > wiring.
> >
> These last two sentences were most helpful.
> Apparently this pot may not be linear taper, and I
> just may not have it backed off as much as I think I
> do. Or, as you say, it could be routing still
> Stay tuned!
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Want to start your own business?
> Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
Did you ever figure out a charging profile for the Ovonics?
I have my Force apart and am looking at reprogramming the BC3300
(NLG412) charger and the ACM325 motor controller. I may be able to
accomplish this as there is a working Force near me, but was wondering
if you had any suggestions.
However, what I don't have is a BTMS for the Ovonics that will drive the
customm air cooled fans that I will have to assemble and manage the
charging profile. I was wondering what you use/suggest for these touchy
batteries.
Does anyone else have any suggestions as to what to use for a BTMS?
Thanks,
Noel L
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--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
I sent an email to Reva expressing interest in the Reva to which I got a
reply asking if I would be interested in starting a dealership for them. I
don't and cannot do so... so I was wondering if anybody on this list would
be interested in starting a dealership, know anybody who would be or can
suggest names of existing dealers who might be interested.
Thank you,
Prasad
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This came in to the NEDRA Yahoo group by a guy named Bill. I thought many of
you would find this of interest. I sure did! Here is the forwarded message:
Hi again guys
Thanks again for the responses....I ran across this...and I must say I am
amazed....and I thought you guys would be interested as well....
paragliders are not very efficient flying machines....the lift to drag ratio
is probably only about half that of your typical cessna or piper cub...
And as we know, batteries arent exactly a light wieght way to store
power...especially when compared to liquid fuels...
And when it comes to flying things wieght is everything !
But hey...the proof is in the pudding as they say...
here is the article link.....the video link is down near the bottom...kinda
hiding under the bottom 3 pictures....video took awhile to load for me at
least...
but still I am amazed!
http://www.lightsportaircraft.ca/airventure-2006/electricpowered-poweredparaglider.html
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/691 - Release Date: 2/17/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did a little searching to find the patent owned by Cobasys / Chevron which
covers NiMH batteries for electric vehicles.
Is this the one?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5558950.PN.&OS=PN/5558950&RS=PN/5558950
or
http://snipurl.com/1am15
United States Patent 5,558,950
Ovshinsky, et al. September 24, 1996
Optimized cell pack for large sealed nickel-metal hydride batteries
A sealed prismatic metal hydride battery greater than 10 Ah in size
comprising a battery case of high thermal conductivity; and at least
one bundle of metal hydride electrodes of high thermal conductivity
in thermal contact with said battery case.
If this is it, and patents expire in 17 years, it will expire on Sept 24,
2013 which is less than 7 years from now.
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IANAL, but I think a researcher could improve on this concept and apply for
their own patent (?)
I'm sure there are plenty of people who could either improve on the concept
or make "significant enough" changes to it. Getting someone to do it and
apply for a patent is the hard part.
--
Martin K
On 2/18/07, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I did a little searching to find the patent owned by Cobasys / Chevron
which
covers NiMH batteries for electric vehicles.
Is this the one?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5558950.PN.&OS=PN/5558950&RS=PN/5558950
or
http://snipurl.com/1am15
United States Patent 5,558,950
Ovshinsky, et al. September 24, 1996
Optimized cell pack for large sealed nickel-metal hydride batteries
A sealed prismatic metal hydride battery greater than 10 Ah in size
comprising a battery case of high thermal conductivity; and at least
one bundle of metal hydride electrodes of high thermal conductivity
in thermal contact with said battery case.
If this is it, and patents expire in 17 years, it will expire on Sept 24,
2013 which is less than 7 years from now.
Bruce
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sertainly is a nickel metal hydride battery patent.
So at the VERY LEAST the nickel metal hydride use will expire in 7yrs or
less.
However if you look at the patents it refers to you may find early
nickel metal hydride patents which means the nickel metal hydride part
would expire sooner.
This patent seems to deal mostly with the thermal conductive case for a
large battery and not the nickle metal hydride which means there is
probably an earlier one.
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:36 am, Bruce wrote:
I did a little searching to find the patent owned by Cobasys / Chevron
which
covers NiMH batteries for electric vehicles.
Is this the one?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5558950.PN.&OS=PN/5558950&RS=PN/5558950
or
http://snipurl.com/1am15
United States Patent 5,558,950
Ovshinsky, et al. September 24, 1996
Optimized cell pack for large sealed nickel-metal hydride batteries
A sealed prismatic metal hydride battery greater than 10 Ah in size
comprising a battery case of high thermal conductivity; and at least
one bundle of metal hydride electrodes of high thermal conductivity
in thermal contact with said battery case.
If this is it, and patents expire in 17 years, it will expire on Sept
24,
2013 which is less than 7 years from now.
Bruce
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
I just was a my favorite Auto Parts Store...
I notice that they had a CV joint and telescoping shaft which is a harden
steel shaft that slides into another solid shaft which is about 1.5 to 2
inches in diameter. After you set the length you weld them at the joint or
use a locking coupler unit.
They get them from 3-Rivers...
I ask how much are they, and they said they are $135.00 each.
Thanks, Roland! I tracked them down... they're from American Axle, their
Three Rivers MI plant. Very interesting; they even sell complete front
and rear suspension packages! Appears to be for big auto companies, but
I'm going to give them a call to see what they can do for us.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chet Fields wrote:
still looking for a Plan B for my SepEx controller for my EVCort...
mulling over this idea of a 'commutator controller'...
I think you would be re-inventing something that was done 100 years ago.
It's how they built PWM controllers before vacuum tubes. It would be
much less work to do something a lot more contemporary.
The three choices are a) repair the Soleq controller, b) replace it with
a Curtis or other PWM controller, c) replace it with a contactor
controller. Which one is "best" will depend on your particular skills
and time and money.
Repairing the Soleq yourself would be the cheapest. But, it will take a
*lot* of time to reverse-engineer it to figure out how it works, and
what is wrong. Then, probably a few dollars worth of parts and you're
back on the road. You would need to be a skilled electronics technician.
It will take a lot of time, so paying someone to do it would be expensive.
You can replace the Soleq controller with a standard series motor
controller. It drives the armature of your sepex motor. A separate
smaller controller is needed to drive the field. The field controller
can be very simple; as simple as a big rheostat if you like. This
approach is the most expensive, but the lowest risk and requires the
least skill. You would lose regenerative braking.
Or, you can build a contactor controller. These are fairly simple, and
relatively cheap. Though not as smooth, it will work OK, and you'll
still have regen. Basically, a few contactors power the armature with
half or full pack voltage, with or without a series starting resistor.
The field is operated by a big rheostat, which is your throttle.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian Hooper wrote:
Well I'm willing to be a guinea pig and give this few-thousand-NiMHs
idea a go! Hopefully in a couple of years I'll be in a position to say
whether or not it was a good idea.. ;)
Yes; please let us know how it work out!
Basically I think the main problem is the whole "lowest common
denominator" idea, i.e the pack is only as good as the weakest cell.
You do not want this sort of situation. With thousands of cells, the
weakest cell is likely to be *very* weak; even bad! It must *not* be
designed so one bad cell stops the whole thing! Design it so you can
keep driving even with one (or more) bad cells.
You want the pack's performance to be set by the *average* capacity of
each cell, not the minimum. This means redundant design, where there are
many modules, each consisting of many individual cells, and some kind of
battery management system that can individually control how much each
module charges/discharges.
You also need a way to quickly identify bad cells, and replace them as
needed. You can't afford to replace the whole pack when a few fail. But
that means you'll soon have a pack consisting of some old and some new
cells; they must be kept in balance, despite rather large differences
between cells.
It's a challenging project.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew A. wrote:
Since I'll be going a bit on the high side with the
thickness, I probably will cover it in heat shrink. I
don't like to think of all that bare copper just
waiting for some unfortunate tool to land on it...
You *do* have your batteries covered, in boxes, don't you? It should not
be possible to drop a tool on them.
You're dealing with high voltage, high current, and high power here.
Cover and insulate it just as you would for your electrical panel in
your home!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
One more I thought of is the R. Q. Riley "Phoenix".
<http://rqriley.com/phx.html>
csilver wrote:
I think I've seen this one before, and it's a neat idea. A while back I
also came across something a bit more contemporary from an Australian
designer. The firm does a lot of compact ecological housing and other
buildings.
http://www.andrewmaynard.com.au/BOB01.html
Nice idea, but not worked out. Looks impractical to actually build.
Either of these designs would be improved by getting rid of the
tent-like nature, and replacing them with rigid panels that hinge or
slide together.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great find! I'm saving this one.
Here's an abstract thought.....Chevron doesn't want anyone to "sell" these
batteries (i.e. make a profit) What if someone were to manufacture and
distribute these batteries "at cost"? Oh, well....2013 is not that far
away-or maybe someone in China will make them available or by 2013 a better
technology will be developed and kept out of the hands of someone wanting to
shelve that technology!
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:31 PM
Subject: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
> I did a little searching to find the patent owned by Cobasys / Chevron
which
> covers NiMH batteries for electric vehicles.
>
> Is this the one?
>
>
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5558950.PN.&OS=PN/5558950&RS=PN/5558950
>
> or
>
> http://snipurl.com/1am15
>
> United States Patent 5,558,950
> Ovshinsky, et al. September 24, 1996
> Optimized cell pack for large sealed nickel-metal hydride batteries
> A sealed prismatic metal hydride battery greater than 10 Ah in size
> comprising a battery case of high thermal conductivity; and at least
> one bundle of metal hydride electrodes of high thermal conductivity
> in thermal contact with said battery case.
>
> If this is it, and patents expire in 17 years, it will expire on Sept 24,
> 2013 which is less than 7 years from now.
>
> Bruce
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello All,
How feasible are lead acid batteries for making a plug-in hybrid ?
these are the only type of batteries readily avaliable in India
What technical factors should i look into if I want a range of around 60 km
?
thanks
Sushrut
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the one. Provided they don't pull any tricks to extend the patent,
which I understand is doable.
> I did a little searching to find the patent owned by Cobasys / Chevron
> which
> covers NiMH batteries for electric vehicles.
>
> Is this the one?
>
> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=5558950.PN.&OS=PN/5558950&RS=PN/5558950
>
> or
>
> http://snipurl.com/1am15
>
> United States Patent 5,558,950
> Ovshinsky, et al. September 24, 1996
> Optimized cell pack for large sealed nickel-metal hydride batteries
> A sealed prismatic metal hydride battery greater than 10 Ah in size
> comprising a battery case of high thermal conductivity; and at least
> one bundle of metal hydride electrodes of high thermal conductivity
> in thermal contact with said battery case.
>
> If this is it, and patents expire in 17 years, it will expire on Sept 24,
> 2013 which is less than 7 years from now.
>
> Bruce
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's pretty cool, though the article is a little misleading.
The first time I read it I though he was saying that this provided 35
minutes worth of POWERED flight at 17hp, which would be about 10kwh.
There is no way that little tiny pack stores 10kwh
I'm pretty sure he just means the guy can stay up in the air for 35
minutes, using the the motor periodically or at low power.
Still very cool though. I might just have to look into building an
electric ultralight.
> This came in to the NEDRA Yahoo group by a guy named Bill. I thought many
> of
> you would find this of interest. I sure did! Here is the forwarded
> message:
>
>
> Hi again guys
>
>
> Thanks again for the responses....I ran across this...and I must say I am
> amazed....and I thought you guys would be interested as well....
>
> paragliders are not very efficient flying machines....the lift to drag
> ratio
> is probably only about half that of your typical cessna or piper cub...
>
> And as we know, batteries arent exactly a light wieght way to store
> power...especially when compared to liquid fuels...
>
> And when it comes to flying things wieght is everything !
>
> But hey...the proof is in the pudding as they say...
>
> here is the article link.....the video link is down near the
> bottom...kinda
> hiding under the bottom 3 pictures....video took awhile to load for me at
> least...
>
> but still I am amazed!
>
> http://www.lightsportaircraft.ca/airventure-2006/electricpowered-poweredparaglider.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/691 - Release Date: 2/17/2007
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm a newbie myself, so take this with a grain of salt, but if you
possibly can wait I would advise you to spend a year or so researching the
subject before you buy anything or turn a wrench.
I've only been on the list a few months but it seems that this is a
time of great upheaval in the field of energy storage. Altairnano, EEstor,
fireflyenergy.com, and many others have extremely impressive claims and can
be expected to start producing actual product (or fade away) within a year
or so. Also Daimler already produces a PHEV version of the Sprinter,
although it is not available on the common market. Possibly in a year or so
you will be able to purchase one from them which would simplify your life
greatly.
There is also the possibility of a big advance in solar panels, but it
seems less likely. I would remind you, however, that you aren't necessarily
limited to the size of your roof for panel deployment. Since you are
unlikely to be charging and driving at the same time, you could potentially
have external panels on stands, or fold-out panels on the sides of the
truck, or a second pull-out panel underneath the primary one, or something
else.
Good luck!
On 2/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric
for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last
week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get
from point A to point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35
years' experience and has agreed to help me do a conversion, and
although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology and
other information I've learned from my research, I don't think he's
ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was
willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many details
as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm
for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting
information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of
gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is worth the
end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have
to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work
for my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning
how to do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my
enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars
as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not
looking to convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted
by those as many EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to
convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get
the high roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from
floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the
front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk,
just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to
propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as
possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps
Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his
conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a
hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus
my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and
I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the
one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but
instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-mounted
solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I
will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm
sure it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle,
taking photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my
laptop and wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available,
but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my
travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because
some days will be "charging only" days, and I know I'm not going to
be able to drive for hours and hours without stopping (unless I can
find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what I've
been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for long-
distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a
couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging
the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
the next day with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing
multiple things: freelancing, operating a website, and working on a
doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/
summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm
climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to me
and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty
and ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I
don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful
information I can collect the better. I will find a way to make it
work successfully; it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up until I
figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If I need
to make certain concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll
consider that once all alternatives have proven ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of
batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so
much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up,
of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my
application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you think
I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries
underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a small
car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the truck
bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the
maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to
need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging
the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any
info yet that specifically says this is impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I
need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
(except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that)
and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would
be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn
more about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
--- End Message ---
