EV Digest 6444
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV conversion questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Solar commuters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Solar commuters, musings
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Off Topic Biodiesel (was Re: First post)
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: A Zilla 1K can produce 320 kilowatts, so this is doable.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of the
vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the roof?
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV conversion questions
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A Zilla 1K can produce 320 kilowatts, so this is doable.
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of the
vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the roof?
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Capacitor Range Helper
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The AC Propulsion site has a January 2000 paper (Lead-Acid Batteries: Key to
Electric Vehicle Commercialization) in which they talked about this. There are
significant differences in PbA vs. NiMH in an S10 (PbA: 45 kWh/100 miles city;
41 kWh/100 miles highway; NiMH: 94 kWh/100 miles city; 86 kWh/100 miles
highway) and they state very clearly that "vehicles with NiMH batteries can
consume fully twice as much AC energy per mile as lead-acid vehicles". The
numbers are from the 1999 EPA fuel economy guide. I've seen other data on this
as well, but can't quickly find it.
I agree that most consumers won't really care but in terms of grid capacity and
widespread use of EV's it can become a significant issue. The other concern
for me is cost: we presently pay almost $.20/kWh so halving my efficiency is
hard to justify. I'd rather drag some extra weight around and lose a bit
rather than change technology and lose a lot.
Interesting point about charger efficiency: I wonder what GM used for the S10?
Maybe they changed strategy to recharge NiMH and AC Prop. made a poor
assumption?
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:56:15 AM
Subject: Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
Frank John wrote:
> My only concern with nickel batteries is that they seem to be
> inefficient. They have great energy density but take ~twice the
> grid electricity to recharge compared with PbA.
They are less efficient than lead-acid or lithium, but not nearly as bad
as 50%! If you're thinking of the nimh packs in GM EV1's, they were
inefficient because a) they used the Magnecharger, which has about twice
the losses of a conventional charger, b) they ran the car's air
conditioning system continuously while charging *in case* the pack
needed cooling.
To be quite honest, efficiency hardly ever matters to consumers. It's
rare for them to even know the efficiency, or ask about it when
purchasing. Batteries are so much more efficient than ICEs (20%) that it
hardly matters if they are 80% or 90%.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Andy
That would be a great car for a conversion.
I have bought items from Victor at Metric Mind. Top quality products and
great follow up help.
I asked a question once to Electro Automotive and they answered right back.
One of the members of our local club just inquired about Electro Automotive
because they were not getting any response on their order. I have seen this
come up on this list as well.
That is all I know. Please keep posting how your coming along on your
project.
Don
In a message dated 2/18/2007 10:20:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hello,
I am newbe to your list.
I have been considering doing a EV conversion, using a
1970 BMW 2002, a neat little car that I own.
I am looking at a direct drive AC conversions, and it
seems the only suppliers of (affordable) motors and
controllers out there are MetricMind
http://www.metricmind.com/ and ElectroAutomotive
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html.
Has anyone out there done an AC conversion?
With parts from these places?
Has anyone dealt with these companies?
Are there other suppliers that I should look into?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
Andy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He will probably need a lot of tuning and protection to avoid getting the
rubber side up, as getting the power to the wheels is one thing, turning it
into traction is verse two.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 1:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
John acording to the speedworld horsepower estimater your 2700lb car with
450 hp will run 10.61 at 129mph.You are going to fly this new year!!I hope
my s10
can get close. D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> There are significant differences in PbA vs. NiMH in an S10...
Agreed; the GM S10 used the same batteries and same charger as the EV1. The
NiMH versions had lower efficiency chargers, overcharged heavily, and used a
lot of power for cooling. This put the thumb pretty heavily on the scale.
In more normal situations, you'd have a more efficient charger (+10%), would
use a simple fan or convection cooling (+10%), and not overcharge so heavily
(+10%). This results in about 80% efficiency for the NiMH versus 85% for PbA.
As a counter-example, the Toyota hybrids use NiMH batteries. They use a simple
fan for cooling, which only runs as needed. They go to special pains not to
overcharge; in fact, they keep the batteries between 40% and 80% SOC where they
are the most efficient and have the longest life.
So, you do pay a small efficiency penalty for NiMH; but it's a reasonable
tradeoff for their longer life than PbA, and lower cost that lithiums.
> I agree that most consumers won't really care but in terms of grid capacity
> and widespread use of EV's it can become a significant issue.
Yes, it could. Though with EVs, it makes the difference between 100 and 200 mpg
(equavalent) rather than 20 vs. 40 mpg for an ICE.
The best solution is to offer different battery packs, and inform consumers
about the performance, life, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs for each. But in
our "one size fits all" marketing, they won't offer this option.
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My response does relate to EVs. Just talking in terms of homeland defense,
trains make things more vulnerable -- it is tough to protect many miles of rail
against terrorist sabotage. You have also bottlenecked your transportation, so
it is easy to grind things to a halt with a small number of attacks. Gas
pipelines, airports, and roads also have this issue, but to a lesser degree.
Now take an EV that is charged at home from solar panels, and/or wind power.
That would be free from worries about keeping oil supplies flowing, worries
about the power grid, and worries about protecting gas pipelines. It's a rare
case of left meets right, you could argue an EV is the ultimate survivalist
vehicle. :) Whew, with that thought I think I'll go work on my EV conversion
now! :)
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:03:53 AM
Subject: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
... Congress should get off it's collective dead ass, and declare a National
Emergency. The Prez? Yeah, right? He will be too busy with other fluff;
Amending the Constutution, stopping Gay Marriage, protecting the Oil
Companies"God given" right to drill in national parks, or free leeases for
oil producing areas. Ya get my point,?Throwing more lives into a no-win war,
over, hand me the envelope, please;.... Oil!!
In MY perfect World, Washington Div. I would have the Prez get on the
Tube, Not, You Tube, and declare a National Energency. Apeal to American's
patriotic pride and SERIOUSLY think of conversavation; Buy economical cars,
use public transit. Scale down their wasteful lives a bit.The Battery
patents we all need, as Doug points out, are HERE and Now. We Nationalize
them, pay their owners what they are worth, no REALLY does Chevron NEED that
royalty. Ha Ha! They have more money than Jesus , NOW! But this is Free
Enterprise here, I'll play fair<g>!Raise the gas tax to pay for the battery
rights. It should refllect what it really costs, anyhow?
Order General Murders to get the EV-1 production line going. Toyota the
Rav line, rattle Ford's cage to bring back the Think. Give the Othe Car Co's
tax breaks to get some REAL EV's in production, like Tesla, the White Star
Line, more than the Titanic, here. I think they were gunna do a "White Star"
Car for the Rest of Us?
Electrify city transit? Trolley's and Trackless trolleys, clean up the
cities. Get those stinkin' Diseasel buses OUT of the cities. Throw a few bux
to highway coach builders for at least hybrid Grey hounds( Hy hounds?) and
Fung Hwa's. Fung Hwa is a BIG Chinese bus outfit in the East. Frankly I
don't see WHY the Chinese want to be in the USA Bus Biz?I THINK it means
Glorious Wind in English?The wonderful Chinese thing with names; Thunder Sky
and Sacred Son, for batteries, come to mind.
Start on a USA Bullet Train system, there are just too many Airplanes
smoking up the upper atmosphere, EVERYWHERE! Yes we need them, but not so
damn many. 200 plus wheeled(cheaper than Maglevs) trains should be doing the
bulk of travel in USA. We all could live with a 6 hour NYC Miami train,
Chicago NYC about the same. The 1934 speed record still stands for the
Pioneer Zephyr.Chicago-Denver!Other than Amtrak's Acela Express we havent
made much RR progress. Acela will do 150mph on the 30 miles of track we have
good enough(streight) to open her up!Do your E mail in "Flight"Of course all
electric, alota power made by wind turbines, in higher places.Or(gasp!)
nukes.
OK, down out of my fantesy world, but in reality, we have the tech
smarts to roll back oil consumption here. NOT buy any more overseas, keeping
our gold IN the USA for expensive RR, and transit projects. Jobs for
Americans in America, NOT illegal aliens.Oh they are hard workers, but they
send their pay HOME. Not into OUR economy.
Why does it take a Nobody, like me, to see this? Nobody home in
Washingtoon!? Dammit! We American Sheeple have to wake up, before it's too
late.
Yeah, money talks, runs the country, with the Best Govt. Oil Money can
Buy. Seems like I'm pissing to windward here.? Is it too late? Stay tuned,
for the next breathtaking saga.
...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> This is perfect: the average US commute is 16 miles one-way. Which
> organizations would be best suited to try to organize something like this?
It's hard to say... every organization I can think of has a vested interest in
promoting *other* kind of vehicles! One quote I recall is "We don't want new
solutions -- we want ways to make the old solutions work!"
It would be fun, though. I'd *love* to see what my BEST kids would dream up! I
have one student this year intent on a fan-driven car, that uses the wind when
parked to recharge it. :-)
I suppose you'd have to start a new organization to promote such a race. Offer
some sort of prize, and people would come out of the woodwork to try to win it.
:-)
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An interesting figure is to put in John's record from last year into a
calculator. I used the one at Drag Times and I matched it against the
figures Dennis gave. It appears to give the same results as the Speedworld
one. I then put in John's numbers for his record of 12.151 at 106.25 mph.
This gave a horsepower reading of 275. So assuming an increase of horsepower
of 40% that would 385 hp. When plugging in this on Speedworld I get 11.8
seconds ET for 385 hp. Still very respectable and keeping with John's slogan
of 11s in 2007. I guess I should start getting worried :-)
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
John acording to the speedworld horsepower estimater your 2700lb car with
450
hp will run 10.61 at 129mph.You are going to fly this new year!!I hope my
s10
can get close. D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, thanks for the info and clarification.
:)
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 6:24:29 PM
Subject: Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
From: Frank John
> There are significant differences in PbA vs. NiMH in an S10...
Agreed; the GM S10 used the same batteries and same charger as the EV1. The
NiMH versions had lower efficiency chargers, overcharged heavily, and used a
lot of power for cooling. This put the thumb pretty heavily on the scale.
In more normal situations, you'd have a more efficient charger (+10%), would
use a simple fan or convection cooling (+10%), and not overcharge so heavily
(+10%). This results in about 80% efficiency for the NiMH versus 85% for PbA.
As a counter-example, the Toyota hybrids use NiMH batteries. They use a simple
fan for cooling, which only runs as needed. They go to special pains not to
overcharge; in fact, they keep the batteries between 40% and 80% SOC where they
are the most efficient and have the longest life.
So, you do pay a small efficiency penalty for NiMH; but it's a reasonable
tradeoff for their longer life than PbA, and lower cost that lithiums.
> I agree that most consumers won't really care but in terms of grid capacity
> and widespread use of EV's it can become a significant issue.
Yes, it could. Though with EVs, it makes the difference between 100 and 200 mpg
(equavalent) rather than 20 vs. 40 mpg for an ICE.
The best solution is to offer different battery packs, and inform consumers
about the performance, life, cost, and efficiency tradeoffs for each. But in
our "one size fits all" marketing, they won't offer this option.
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does NEDRA allow traction control?
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 5:55:43 PM
Subject: RE: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
He will probably need a lot of tuning and protection to avoid getting the
rubber side up, as getting the power to the wheels is one thing, turning it
into traction is verse two.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 1:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
John acording to the speedworld horsepower estimater your 2700lb car with
450 hp will run 10.61 at 129mph.You are going to fly this new year!!I hope
my s10
can get close. D.Berube
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/19/07 4:12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
Date: 2/19/07 4:12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roderick Wilde)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
An interesting figure is to put in John's record from last year into a
calculator. I used the one at Drag Times and I matched it against the
figures Dennis gave. It appears to give the same results as the Speedworld
one. I then put in John's numbers for his record of 12.151 at 106.25 mph.
This gave a horsepower reading of 275. So assuming an increase of horsepower
of 40% that would 385 hp. When plugging in this on Speedworld I get 11.8
seconds ET for 385 hp. Still very respectable and keeping with John's slogan
of 11s in 2007. I guess I should start getting worried :-)
Roderick Wilde
>>
I thought I read that John had 450 battery hp,thats a 10.6 sec run on the
speedworld calc. Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/19/07 1:47:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Dennis,
What's your S10 gonna weigh at the track?
Are you going to be running lead? or Lithium?
How are you goint to handle the drop off at the top end?
Didn't you say you'd be running a 2 speed?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak >>
I am runing just a direct drive with a 13in.ge motor that I have put lots of
hours and $ into.I will be using what JW used last year 30 26ah hawkers.Not
even the areo hawkers!I will have to weigh the truck when complete but it
should
be under 3000 with me in it.No ac,no heat, no power steering or brakes,just a
radio to listen to the track annoncer and all the NHRA safety gear including
full cage. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee, Frank and All,
The solar commuter is an interesting
problem. As it has to have a very low wthr/mile to work, it
has to be light and small. Of course the solar panel has to
be fairly large.
Which leaves us with options. If one can
use under 25mph, a simple tricycle with just a solar roof
can work well, getting probably 15-25 mile/day. With a
simple curtain body, it can be used during rougher weather.
I used such a trike, a Pedal Power Cycle chair, without the
solar panels as it was easy to carry enough battery range,
30+ miles on my nicads, as a 12 mile commuter and at rush
hrs, I beat the traffic by using the bicycle lane, passing
them all by. By the time they got through 3 light cycles, I
was miles ahead!! For heavy traffic cities, this could be
the fastest way!!
Or one can have a much more aero, faster
vehicle run on batteries and use folding panels that can be
orientated to the sun while parked, what it does most of the
time. This way one could still have the low wthr/mile like
30-50 and still get higher freeway speeds and gives the
option of pluging in if the sun don't shine.
I don't believe a low, flat, wide
solarcar of the size needed would be safe to drive on our
roads so not going there.
There is no reason one couldn't build a
sail/EV hybrid. I designed a cool one that uses a flat or V
bottomed sq stern canoe as the body for sleeping on the
water while traveling cross-country though no reason it
couldn't be used for commuting.
When there is wind, you charge the batts
through regen and when you hit a wind shadow, lull, use the
batts. The sail is quite easy to make and automatic in
operation being a hard foil with a trim tab for automatic
control so one doesn't have to touch a sail line, just move
the trim tab right, left and neutral.
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solar commuters
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:31:24 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
>From: Frank John
>> This is perfect: the average US commute is 16 miles
>> one-way. Which organizations would be best suited to try
>to organize something like this?
>
>It's hard to say... every organization I can think of has a
>vested interest in promoting *other* kind of vehicles! One
>quote I recall is "We don't want new solutions -- we want
>ways to make the old solutions work!"
>
>It would be fun, though. I'd *love* to see what my BEST
>kids would dream up! I have one student this year intent on
>a fan-driven car, that uses the wind when parked to
>recharge it. :-)
>
>I suppose you'd have to start a new organization to promote
>such a race. Offer some sort of prize, and people would
>come out of the woodwork to try to win it. :-) --
I might give it a try if a contest was set up.
Though the cost of solar panels would be several times the
rest of the vehicle's cost.
Much more practical would just be a contest to
build the best commuter EV? Now that could put many EV's,
designs on the road that might go into production!!
Imagine how many if the goverment put up
$1,000,000 prize? Now that would jump start EV's in a big
way.
Jerry Dycus
>Lee Hart
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is pretty easy to make the train tracks redundant.
In fact, in almost all cases it is a requirement.
That has nothing to do with sabotage, as a train wreck is not world news,
but it has to do with periodic maintenance on the tracks.
The simplest way to achieve redundancy is to build "loops", so each station
can be reached from two directions.
Look at a rail map - you almost always see large "triangles" or something to
that effect, allowing every point a connection to the rest of the network
via at least two ways.
(I have the map from The Netherlands in my head, the US train map is so
sparsely populated that it is hard to get anywhere with a single track, let
alone two.)
The reduction in primary energy use from a well-planned and efficiently run
train system is a very attractive alternative compared to the
ever-increasing air pollution by planes. Speed is only a factor in long
distance travel. Up to 300 miles the train can win hands down, the problem
is mostly that it is not present. Driving is almost always the slowest and
most polluting option today, even though it is very attractive when you
already have the car and like to be "independent". With long-range EVs, that
may change.
I have used the (electric) trains for many years, because I can work while
being transported, instead of wasting my time staring at other tin cans.
(This was before mobile phones were cheap enough that people can now use
their driving time efficiently by blabbing the whole way, allowing them to
make more wrecks for a much lower phone bill than ever before.)
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
My response does relate to EVs. Just talking in terms of homeland defense,
trains make things more vulnerable -- it is tough to protect many miles of
rail against terrorist sabotage. You have also bottlenecked your
transportation, so it is easy to grind things to a halt with a small number
of attacks. Gas pipelines, airports, and roads also have this issue, but to
a lesser degree.
Now take an EV that is charged at home from solar panels, and/or wind power.
That would be free from worries about keeping oil supplies flowing, worries
about the power grid, and worries about protecting gas pipelines. It's a
rare case of left meets right, you could argue an EV is the ultimate
survivalist vehicle. :) Whew, with that thought I think I'll go work on my
EV conversion now! :)
----- Original Message ----
From: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 10:03:53 AM
Subject: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
... Congress should get off it's collective dead ass, and declare a
National
Emergency. The Prez? Yeah, right? He will be too busy with other fluff;
Amending the Constutution, stopping Gay Marriage, protecting the Oil
Companies"God given" right to drill in national parks, or free leeases for
oil producing areas. Ya get my point,?Throwing more lives into a no-win war,
over, hand me the envelope, please;.... Oil!!
In MY perfect World, Washington Div. I would have the Prez get on the
Tube, Not, You Tube, and declare a National Energency. Apeal to American's
patriotic pride and SERIOUSLY think of conversavation; Buy economical cars,
use public transit. Scale down their wasteful lives a bit.The Battery
patents we all need, as Doug points out, are HERE and Now. We Nationalize
them, pay their owners what they are worth, no REALLY does Chevron NEED that
royalty. Ha Ha! They have more money than Jesus , NOW! But this is Free
Enterprise here, I'll play fair<g>!Raise the gas tax to pay for the battery
rights. It should refllect what it really costs, anyhow?
Order General Murders to get the EV-1 production line going. Toyota the
Rav line, rattle Ford's cage to bring back the Think. Give the Othe Car Co's
tax breaks to get some REAL EV's in production, like Tesla, the White Star
Line, more than the Titanic, here. I think they were gunna do a "White Star"
Car for the Rest of Us?
Electrify city transit? Trolley's and Trackless trolleys, clean up the
cities. Get those stinkin' Diseasel buses OUT of the cities. Throw a few bux
to highway coach builders for at least hybrid Grey hounds( Hy hounds?) and
Fung Hwa's. Fung Hwa is a BIG Chinese bus outfit in the East. Frankly I
don't see WHY the Chinese want to be in the USA Bus Biz?I THINK it means
Glorious Wind in English?The wonderful Chinese thing with names; Thunder Sky
and Sacred Son, for batteries, come to mind.
Start on a USA Bullet Train system, there are just too many Airplanes
smoking up the upper atmosphere, EVERYWHERE! Yes we need them, but not so
damn many. 200 plus wheeled(cheaper than Maglevs) trains should be doing the
bulk of travel in USA. We all could live with a 6 hour NYC Miami train,
Chicago NYC about the same. The 1934 speed record still stands for the
Pioneer Zephyr.Chicago-Denver!Other than Amtrak's Acela Express we havent
made much RR progress. Acela will do 150mph on the 30 miles of track we have
good enough(streight) to open her up!Do your E mail in "Flight"Of course all
electric, alota power made by wind turbines, in higher places.Or(gasp!)
nukes.
OK, down out of my fantesy world, but in reality, we have the tech
smarts to roll back oil consumption here. NOT buy any more overseas, keeping
our gold IN the USA for expensive RR, and transit projects. Jobs for
Americans in America, NOT illegal aliens.Oh they are hard workers, but they
send their pay HOME. Not into OUR economy.
Why does it take a Nobody, like me, to see this? Nobody home in
Washingtoon!? Dammit! We American Sheeple have to wake up, before it's too
late.
Yeah, money talks, runs the country, with the Best Govt. Oil Money can
Buy. Seems like I'm pissing to windward here.? Is it too late? Stay tuned,
for the next breathtaking saga.
...
____________________________________________________________________________
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Rich, I have a TDi that I run on biodiesel most of the time. I dont remember
the exact numbers, but I have seen comparisons to petroleum diesel in terms
of BTUs per gallon. I bet that could be used to convert figures from regular
diesel to bio. It was something like 140,000 BTUs for petro-diesel vs.
125,000 for bio.
If you are thinking of chopping a TDi, good luck finding a cheap one. They
are in higher demand than usual. You might do better to find an old tired
diesel rabbit and just change out all the rubber hoses and seals. I believe
thats what Mr Sharkey did, except he uses his as a pusher, not a
generator. http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
Also, it is generally accepted as a very bad idea to run a newer TDi on
veggie oil (aka fryer grease). You can hit me off list if you like.
Dave O.
Redmond Wa
On 2/19/07, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Anybody got a TDI diesel that we can GEN cart in the Seattle area??? My
old
Metro powered gen cart needs to be Grease powered...
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On Feb 18, 2007, at 11:40 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Oops, I shouldn't try to be funny. The point is that the statement "A
Zilla 1K can produce 320 kilowatts", by itself, is a little misleading
to the noobs. It doesn't mention the other half of the equation. The
motor. What is normally available, an generally accepted is that 170V
is the upper voltage limit for an advanced (commutator timing,not brand
name) series wound motor, which is the only type the Zilla can be used
with.
That is more like the reasonable motor limit for an ADC 8 inch motor
with advanced timing. Pick a larger motor, or one with more commutator
bars, or interpoles, and this limit tends to increase. The limit is
also not real hard, that is to say that the greater the amps the lower
the voltage a given motor tends to be able to accept (without the all
heck breaking loose part that ends with an expensive repair bill.)
At any rate, if you pick the right parts you can apply 320 Kw for a
short time (and you will be accelerating so fast that it *has* to be
short anyway.) If you just dump that kind of power on a basic
conversion its hard to say what will break first - motor, tranny, final
drive!?
Paul "neon" G.
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Hi
Well this reminds me of the problems we were given in calculas
class...
one of them was to calculate the area of a cylinder and show the
minumim area that would hold the most volume... we fought with that
for a while and found solutions by (forgive me if I go the wrong
way!) integrating the formula(I don't remember it might have been
taking the derivitive...it's been a whole bunch of years lol)
anyway they told us later that this is what they do with tin cans to
pack the most chili beans into the least metal/lowest cost can!
So my point is if you have a formula for your cd, with the roof area
being the variable and can plug that into a formula for your energy
usage(again you want this to be the only variable besides the solar
cell area to energy formula, You'd be well on your way to answering
this question. What would you do? graph the result and look for the
high spot where they energy and cd cross? (or low energy/high cd?
maby!)
anybody remember this stuff? Anybody still have those text books???
LOL! I havn't thought of this in ages. I do remember that the formula
for acceleration (called gravity) can be manipulated to give you the
speed and distance formulas too I think it was taking the derivitive
in this example.
T
--------<<<>>>--------
Well let's be specific.
I see a figure of 179Wh/mi for the EV1. At 70mph, that's 12.530KW.
Simple aero rules tell me this whole idea of wh/mi being a constant
is
flawed, drag goes up with the square of velocity. I'd expect the
upper
end of the range to take more power than this linear prediction.
But let's say the wh/mi is no more than that prediction. OK, pulling
a
random solar panel, here's an 80W in 47.28" x 20.88". That's 80W
under
a "standardized" condition- not being clear weather in the afternoon
in
the sunny part of the year in latitudes near the equator will lower
it.
So we need 156.6 of these, or 1074 sq ft of panelling. Note that
even
coverting the EV1's surface to flat panels will probably majorly
spoil
its drag coefficient. Making the vehicle the size of a house will of
course turn that drag coefficient into something completely
different.
At this point the power (and panel area) requirements could be 5x,
10x,
whatever times the original power estimate for a vehicle of this size
and shape.
A roof of a sedan might hold an 80W, 6.86 sq ft panel and you could
leave it in the parking lot in full sun. Let's assume during an 8 hr
workday you get 6 hrs of decent sunshine (morning and late afternoon
are
weaker). That regenerates 2.68 miles of EV1 range per day.
EV1 is an extreme example too. The wh/mi for any vehicle you are
likely
to get ahold of is going to be greater. And the EV1 itself would
certainly not see the same wh/mi figure with a big flat solar panel
on
front.
Danny
Bob Rice wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:39 AM
>Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would
the drag of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate
of pv's on the roof?
>
>
__________________________________________________
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On Feb 18, 2007, at 10:18 PM, Andrew Goodman wrote:
I am newbe to your list.
Welcome!
I have been considering doing a EV conversion, using a
1970 BMW 2002, a neat little car that I own.
I think that could make a fine candidate for EV conversion. I've been
looking to start my 3rd conversion and that car has come up in my
search. I'm not keen on doing one personally (its just not my personal
style) but it seems that the specs are good and parts are reasonably
available (based on internet searching.)
I am looking at a direct drive AC conversions, and it
seems the only suppliers of (affordable) motors and
controllers out there are MetricMind
http://www.metricmind.com/ and ElectroAutomotive
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html.
Has anyone out there done an AC conversion?
I have never done an AC conversion. Others on this list have.
With parts from these places?
I have ridden in one EV that used parts from MetricMind. I know other
EV conversions have been done with parts from MetricMind as well
(comments here and there on this list - positive ones.) I am not aware
of any home built conversions using parts from ElectroAuto but I
believe this hardware is the same or very similar to what went into the
Solectra conversions of late model Geo Metros.
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
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...maybe a brachiocephalic artery from all the G's ??
:-O
"neon" wrote
> If you just dump that kind of power on a basic
> conversion its hard to say what will break first - motor, tranny,
> final
> drive!?
>
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the roof does not have to be flay and if you use the sides also the IS an out
put even if it is somewhat lower when the sun or just light causes current
flow . I guess what I am trying to say is that toget max solar cell production
u have to use the entire surface aarea of the car granted you will get the
most current from that part exposed to the greatest sun , but you have to use
the whole area . second thin film photovoltic's add very little weight and
will conform to all the curves of the car . and if you park on the south side
of a glass building the you have direct sun on one side and reflected sun on
the other !!! + what ever hit the roof !! yes it will cost a little more but
remember this is a proof of concept thing ! and the cost does come down with
production // what about that outfit in s. aferia that is making sloar cell
out of metel ?? the $ per sq in was way low compared to silicon and with care
they are bendable >
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Watson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of
the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the roof?
Hi
Well this reminds me of the problems we were given in calculas
class...
one of them was to calculate the area of a cylinder and show the
minumim area that would hold the most volume... we fought with that
for a while and found solutions by (forgive me if I go the wrong
way!) integrating the formula(I don't remember it might have been
taking the derivitive...it's been a whole bunch of years lol)
anyway they told us later that this is what they do with tin cans to
pack the most chili beans into the least metal/lowest cost can!
So my point is if you have a formula for your cd, with the roof area
being the variable and can plug that into a formula for your energy
usage(again you want this to be the only variable besides the solar
cell area to energy formula, You'd be well on your way to answering
this question. What would you do? graph the result and look for the
high spot where they energy and cd cross? (or low energy/high cd?
maby!)
anybody remember this stuff? Anybody still have those text books???
LOL! I havn't thought of this in ages. I do remember that the formula
for acceleration (called gravity) can be manipulated to give you the
speed and distance formulas too I think it was taking the derivitive
in this example.
T
--------<<<>>>--------
Well let's be specific.
I see a figure of 179Wh/mi for the EV1. At 70mph, that's 12.530KW.
Simple aero rules tell me this whole idea of wh/mi being a constant
is
flawed, drag goes up with the square of velocity. I'd expect the
upper
end of the range to take more power than this linear prediction.
But let's say the wh/mi is no more than that prediction. OK, pulling
a
random solar panel, here's an 80W in 47.28" x 20.88". That's 80W
under
a "standardized" condition- not being clear weather in the afternoon
in
the sunny part of the year in latitudes near the equator will lower
it.
So we need 156.6 of these, or 1074 sq ft of panelling. Note that
even
coverting the EV1's surface to flat panels will probably majorly
spoil
its drag coefficient. Making the vehicle the size of a house will of
course turn that drag coefficient into something completely
different.
At this point the power (and panel area) requirements could be 5x,
10x,
whatever times the original power estimate for a vehicle of this size
and shape.
A roof of a sedan might hold an 80W, 6.86 sq ft panel and you could
leave it in the parking lot in full sun. Let's assume during an 8 hr
workday you get 6 hrs of decent sunshine (morning and late afternoon
are
weaker). That regenerates 2.68 miles of EV1 range per day.
EV1 is an extreme example too. The wh/mi for any vehicle you are
likely
to get ahold of is going to be greater. And the EV1 itself would
certainly not see the same wh/mi figure with a big flat solar panel
on
front.
Danny
Bob Rice wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:39 AM
>Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would
the drag of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate
of pv's on the roof?
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com<http://mail.yahoo.com/>
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--- Begin Message ---
Dennis, I am sure you are aware that the horsepower inside a battery is not
the same as the horsepower out of your flywheel end or the horsepower where
the rubber meets the road. There are losses to be considered. I was using
real world figures for what the car has actually done and then used a figure
of a 40% increase in power. There is a guy named Dennis that I quote quite
frequently who made the famous statement. "The truth is in the time slip :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
In a message dated 2/19/07 4:12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: White Zombie 11s??no 10s
Date: 2/19/07 4:12:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roderick Wilde)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
An interesting figure is to put in John's record from last year into a
calculator. I used the one at Drag Times and I matched it against the
figures Dennis gave. It appears to give the same results as the Speedworld
one. I then put in John's numbers for his record of 12.151 at 106.25 mph.
This gave a horsepower reading of 275. So assuming an increase of
horsepower
of 40% that would 385 hp. When plugging in this on Speedworld I get 11.8
seconds ET for 385 hp. Still very respectable and keeping with John's
slogan
of 11s in 2007. I guess I should start getting worried :-)
Roderick Wilde
>>
I thought I read that John had 450 battery hp,thats a 10.6 sec run on the
speedworld calc. Dennis
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thanks jeff I was wondering aboutthis myself . I am glad nikki asked the
question.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Major<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: Capacitor Range Helper
Hi GW,
Sure, city driving may qualify as stop-start duty. There is no hard and
fast rule. I was working with commerical vehicles and used driving cycles
established for city transit buses. These had 5 to 10 stops per mile. A
buffer will benefit you the most when you have a lot of peaks and valleys
(accels and regens). I don't think you can justify it if you have a few
traffic stops and then miles and miles on the freeway.
Jeff
GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
Does city driving block by block count as stop start in these
circumstances?
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 9:14 am, Jeff Major wrote:
> Hi Bill,
>
> I have done some work in this regard, putting ultracapacitors with
> batteries. For a non-regen application, you are better off devoting
> the mass to more (or bigger) batteries, not to mention the money. Such
> a system can make sense in a stop-start intensive duty cycle when
> regeneration can recover kinetic energy to charge the capacitor each
> cycle.
>
> Jeff
>
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" wrote:
> Has anyone ever tried to extend range by using capacitors in parallel
> with the motor / battery pack to buffer peak amps ?
> How would one calculate the required capacitance ?
> How would one calculate the amount of range extended or would this be
> only from real world testing ??
> What else would be needed in the circuit besides the capacitor bank ?
> Maxwell has a 110 pound 63 Farad 125 VDC capacitor for $ 4000, but is
> something this large necessary for a 120 volt DC system with a
> standard DC Series Motor and Curtis controller ?
> Maxwell ultracap has a max operating voltage of 135 VDC with 142 VDC
> surge capacity, so you could not hook up to a fully charged 120 volt
> battery pack until after pulling out of the garage.
> It also has max continuous current of only 150 amps with a 700 amp
> max current capacity, DC series resistance of 17 milli ohms and 14
> milli ohms at 100 Hz.
> Menlo Park III,
> Bill
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
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