EV Digest 6451
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) HD Radio anyone?
by Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: "electric" emblem
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag
of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the
roof?
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Kevlar banding, was: Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "electric" emblem
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Success! Plugs are going in in our local Mall!
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery charger recommendation
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: HD Radio anyone?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Reality Check
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Reality Check
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Kevlar banding, was: Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've been living with extra static compared to an ICE car while listening to
the radio in my EV. Anyone have any experience with HD radio or Sirius / XM
radio on their EV?
If so, I'm curious as to the quality of the reception, dropouts, and such.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd Martin
1997 Solectria Force.
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No mention of the thickness of the emblems, or if they're beveled. It
looks like 1/8" thick plastic cutouts. Also, they don't offer the
metallic colors.
Dr. Andy Mars wrote:
Go to http://gettagz.com/ for any custom emblem you want - or e-mail
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or call her at 877.563.1233 - she is very helpful -
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Steve. I'll try to make sure my posts are more openly
foreboding in the future when I mean them to be :).
Bill
Steve Condie wrote:
Sorry, Bill - I didn't mean to imply that you were. The thing is, you're using units of
measurement - wh/mi - which you and I may understand the significance of, but which a
lot of people reading this won't. We know from prior discussions on this list that 100
wh/mi is attainable - but only by a very small, very efficient, very aerodynamic vehicle,
travelling at less than 60 MPH. But reading your post might lead someone with more of a
passing interest in EV's to conclude "Hmm, so all I need to do is take the frames
off my semi's PV panels and I can drive it at 60 MPH on solar power." Stopping at
an earlier and simpler stage of the calculation - 6KW, which translates to about 6 HP of
optimal power generation, makes the point clearly by sticking to more familiar data
points. We spend a lot of time here disabusing newbies of overly-optimistic expectations
about EV's. I figure it's worthwhile to keep the realistic parameters clear and up-front.
Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve, I wasn't off by any order of anything. I was trying to show how
difficult (nearly impossible) it would be. You'd need to be able to
move a flatbed truck-sized vehicle at 100Wh/mile for this to work. That
was my point. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.
Bill Dennis
Steve Condie wrote:
You know, people complain about the "new math" but one thing I like that my kids were taught was to make a rough approximation of the answer from known data and see if the answer you get from your calculation corresponds - just to make sure you're not off by an order of magnitude or something.
My response to this post was "6KW is about 6 HP. 6 HP won't move a flatbed truck at
60 MPH."
Bill Dennis wrote: Here's a quick calculation of the size EV that might be needed to
sustain 60 MPH using solar cells in full sunlight (1000W/sq. meter):
Start with a flatbed about the size of a standard US tractor trailer (53
feet by 8 feet). This measures in at close to 40 square meters. Cover
it with monocrystalline solar cells at 15% efficiency. This gives
around 6KW in full sunlight (40 sq. meters * 1000W/sq. meter * .15).
You'd need to make this long, flat vehicle aerodynamic and lightweight
enough to get 100Wh/mile at 60MPH in order to work out to 6KW
(100Wh/mile * 1mile/60seconds * 3600seconds/hour). So if my math is
right, then this gives a vehicle about the length and width of a tractor
trailer that can achieve 100Wh/mile to run on solar cells. 40 sq.
meters of solar cells in aluminum frames weigh in at about 1600 lbs., so
you'd probably need to ditch the frames and attach the cells directly to
keep the weight down.
Bill Dennis
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Frank
Well it's nice to hear that Rolands doing 6K on his
without doing anything bad to it. I'm sure that ADC
puts a cap on them to offer some protection for both
themselves and the end user. While I'm not an EE, I
am someone who gets to see where failures lie in real
world applications and damages. For most of the
people out there doing conversions I'd advise to error
on the side of caution. I'll hit the ball in your
court by asking "how pissed would you be if you blew
it up"??
You are right in that electric motors do in fact
"like" to be run at higher RPM's than an ICE motor and
you diffenently don't want to bog it down like you
state.
At the same time I am very reluctant to recommend a
higher limit then what the factory has set for them.
It's one thing knowing someone is going to be racing
vs. someone who's doing a daily driver. Being this is
the one small area that I can help those on the list I
just wanted to say "easy boy" before you became an
unhappy camper.
Where the actuall limit lies has many factors. Even
though Roland is getting 6K I'd caution folks that
their results could be a lot different. Roland might
have a "made on Wednesday comm" others may have a
"made on Monday or Friday comms" LMAO! I try not to
judge things on a single example but try to use
multiple examples before I see them as concrete.
KillaCycle's motors are a great example. Being I saw
3 exact failures I can then call that a patterned
damage and then try to prevent it. As for what the
9's can reliably handle I'd say the jury is still out
on that one. I can say that 6 personally seen blown
9" motors does start to show a pattern of failure and
is where this post is aimed at preventing. The
problem with stating a solid number is that it can go
from running awesome to BLAM in a heart beat. Bottom
line is that anything over 5K will be at your own
risk. I'd hate to advise anything different and have
you come after me with a big stick LMAO!!!
Hope this helps.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Jim - I have a tendency to lug motors/engines
> rather than overrev but it seems that EV's might
> like to be revved a bit higher. What would you
> recommend for a practical, long-term rev limit on
> the 9" motor?
>
> thanks
> Frank
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:26:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
>
> Hey Frank
>
> I would highly recommend you do NOT run the ADC 9"
> at
> 6600 rpms, even in short durations. Although the
> only
> hard data I have on the comm rpm limit was a blown
> comm (well actually it just cracked in 3 places but
> same difference) at 7000 rpms. It happened when the
> armture was not hot or being used really, the car
> was
> on blocks trying to set the rev limiter when it
> blew.
>
> John Benson learned the hard way, hopefully you can
> benifet from his hard knock which will prevent you
> from a costly mistake and an expensive motor rebuild
> or replacement. ADC lists the limit at 5K and you
> might get away with 5500 but I'd keep it away from
> anything approaching the 6K area.
> Hopefully this helps. I have lots of pics of failed
> 9" motors on my site if you need proof, lol. In
> fact
> the 9" motors are the reason I started Kevlar
> banding
> those comms. Sorry no data in yet on how that's
> going
> to work and by how much and I'm not looking forward
> to
> finding out <shutter>.
> Anyway I just had to chime in here. It's so
> important
> that we all help to create happy EV'ers, not just
> EV'ers!
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
>
>
> --- Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I was plugging-in different scenarios for my
> pickup
> > project and noticed that for one likely
> > configuration I might use (9" ADC, 144 volts
> T-145,
> > Curtis 1231) that the most efficient point of
> > operation was generally in the lowest gear
> possible
> > (i.e. highest numerically) without overspeeding
> the
> > motor. "Most efficient" for me means minimum
> > battery amps used.
> >
> > For example, at 40 mph 1st gear is most efficient
> > (66 amps), with 2nd gear requiring 78 amps and 3rd
> > gear 84 amps. RPM in 1st would be 6600 or so
> which
> > isn't something I'd probably subject the motor to
> > for very long. At higher speeds the difference
> > seems to diminish (ex. 60 mph in 2nd gear would
> pull
> > 191 amps with 3rd requiring 202 amps).
> >
> > I'm curious as to what opinions are; is this
> because
> > of the 9" motors theoretical efficiency curve?
> Does
> > real-life bear these calculations out? etc. 40
> mph
> > is a popular speed out here in the country so this
> > may be a practical question after all.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Frank
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Don't pick lemons.
> > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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> hotels
> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your
> fit.
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email
> Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
>
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok, well I did get some hlepful directions about this guy and where to find
discussions - thanks for those!
as persuggestions, on to a more technical issue:
I've been looking into regen systems, and can find some controllers for
those (Zapi), though they are
more complicated than the hobbyist-friendly Curtis controller, and Zapi has
not dedicated customer service staff to helping use of these by the
hobbyists (which Curtis seems to have sort of done with their various
dealers). They seem to make SepEx controllers for material handling, though
only up to 96 volts (but that's what I'm considering on either an old vw
beetle chassis (pretty light weight, like all those Ghias, but will probably
need some reinforcing to carry 96 volts worth of 6 volt golf cart batteries
(16x62 lbs.) )
or on a new beetle I got an extraordinary deal on (well, of course it has no
engine or transmission, as they were gutted for a local university's
Challenge X contest) which probably couldn't hold more than 16 gc batteries.
Anyway, SepEx offers the advantages of apparently smoother driving (less
'torquey' - do I sound like an American Idol judge with their eternal gripe
about 'pitchiness?' (I have a wife and daughters, otherwise I would fein no
knowledge of 'ai') (ok, really off taget with the discussion here)
and regen which doesn't require any extra contactors. However, finding a
motor that does > 72 volts and is SepEx is turning out to be a bit of a
sticky wicket: Material handling seems to use these motors the most, but
they are typically 72 volts or under. I asked one 'common ev motor maker,'
shall I say,
and they said using their 72 volt, 8" motor with regen at 96 volts would
likely work, for some time anyway, but that WHEN/IF the field and armature
current gets out of balance (which they can't verify because their dyno
doesn't go to 96 volts) then you get first arcing and sparkingat the
commutator end, then you burn up the motor; otherwise, the motor just runs
hotter and faster.
So, likely experimenting with one of these 72 volt motors is not
probably a good idea ...
Any one have any other sugestions for say a 96 volt SepEx motor (since it
would beeven harder to find a SepEx controller above 96 volts, I can only
imagine)?
Also, as to 'controllers the nth option' - has anyone seriously
considered Zapis series motor controllers, they seem to go up to 1000 Amps
if you like, 120 volts, don't seem really high priced. Less user friendly
than Curtis since their wiring is more difficult, but if you're going to try
to make your own controller, a few extra wires and manual reading shouldn't
be so difficult ... I've heard they had some problem with contactors
wearing out, but that (they said) that
"Also, the bad experience that many people have had with contactors relates
to a lack of sealing of the tips. If you get a sealed contactor, you should
not have trouble. In general, the contactor will close and stay closed
during operation. Since there will be no need to open and close the
contactor, the life should be longer than others have experienced with regen
and forward/reverse contactors."
Any comments - maybe something to revisit or try out? If so, I'll keep
y'all posted ...
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:26 AM 21/02/07 -0800, Jim wrote:
the 9" motors are the reason I started Kevlar banding
those comms.
G'day Jim
I don't suppose I can twist your arm to "spill the beans" on how you are
doing the banding?
How you get the kevlar really tight, what you lock it down with, etc?
A step-by-step would be great to read (...so just at the point here where
you need to have a third hand for this and a fourth hand for that, the
telephone will ring...)
Thanks
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen a place that does really nice ones, worthy of framing.
Only I can't figure out a good combination of search terms to find it
right now, if I think of a way to find it, I'll post it. The company
I'm thinking of was pretty expensive though, so if price was a
factor, whoever made that electric one (http://www.austinev.org/
evtradinpost/signs.html) would probably be the better bet.
If it jogs anyone's memory, the site in question was themed along the
custom car and motorcycle side of things. The name badges are made
out of brass and then chrome plated and can have posts for mounting
as well.
I did find this site while searching, but it looks like they just
restore and repair old emblems:
http://www.emblemagic.com
On Feb 21, 2007, at 8:40 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Hi all,
I am looking for whoever got the "electric" car emblem
manufactured. I want
to make some of my own (for a completely different product), and
want to
find a manufacturer.
thanks
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just quoted $85ea plus tax for a set of T-105's.
This is quite a jump from the last time I bought them.
At these prices, freight shipping from higher volume
distribution points starts to look attractive.
Is this about the going rate for T-105's now or am I
getting hosed? This may be the end of my EV career, this
works out to the equivalent of $3.50 gal gas before
the cost of electricity. I like my EV but I can run
a luxury car cheaper than this.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Also, as to 'controllers the nth option' - has anyone seriously
> considered Zapis series motor controllers, they seem to go up to
1000 Amps
> if you like, 120 volts, don't seem really high priced. Less user
friendly
> than Curtis since their wiring is more difficult, but if you're
going to try
> to make your own controller, a few extra wires and manual reading
shouldn't
> be so difficult ... I've heard they had some problem with contactors
> wearing out, but that (they said) that
> "Also, the bad experience that many people have had with contactors
relates
> to a lack of sealing of the tips. If you get a sealed contactor,
you should
> not have trouble. In general, the contactor will close and stay closed
> during operation. Since there will be no need to open and close the
> contactor, the life should be longer than others have experienced
with regen
> and forward/reverse contactors."
>
I have a 96V SepEx sitting in the back of my Kewet, which has 96V of
NiCds, but the rat's nest under the dash and the non-functioning 12v
system has put it in limbo. The motor is a 48V compound, but the
nominal rpm at that voltage is 3K, and the motor states a limit of 9K,
so I think it can survive the voltage. I am more concerned about the
Zapi: they're made in Italy, and I remember the statement "never buy a
Fiat that was built on a Friday", so a backup plan is to go with a
Curtis if the Zapi takes a Roman Holiday...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
I am not sure why you are afraid of running a 72V motor at 96V.
Sure - the field winding of a Sepex can be destroyed (burned up)
easily because it has little mass (thin wiring) but the armature
is basically the same as a series motor and they are abused
routinely at around double voltage or more, while some racers
manage to use a 12V motor in a vehicle with a 120V pack (Father
Time, I hear).
If you keep the output of the Sepex controller for the Field at
the same level as for 72V operation, then there should be no
problem to run the 72V motor at 96V, as EVs typically run for
a short while only - when you try to run more than half an
hour, you can't use full power continuously, so the continuous
rating does not really apply to EVs until we can store much more
energy or for someone that has another source than a battery.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Seth Myers
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
ok, well I did get some hlepful directions about this guy and where to find
discussions - thanks for those!
as persuggestions, on to a more technical issue:
I've been looking into regen systems, and can find some controllers for
those (Zapi), though they are more complicated than the hobbyist-friendly
Curtis controller, and Zapi has not dedicated customer service staff to
helping use of these by the hobbyists (which Curtis seems to have sort of
done with their various dealers). They seem to make SepEx controllers for
material handling, though only up to 96 volts (but that's what I'm
considering on either an old vw beetle chassis (pretty light weight, like
all those Ghias, but will probably need some reinforcing to carry 96 volts
worth of 6 volt golf cart batteries
(16x62 lbs.) )
or on a new beetle I got an extraordinary deal on (well, of course it has no
engine or transmission, as they were gutted for a local university's
Challenge X contest) which probably couldn't hold more than 16 gc batteries.
Anyway, SepEx offers the advantages of apparently smoother driving (less
'torquey' - do I sound like an American Idol judge with their eternal gripe
about 'pitchiness?' (I have a wife and daughters, otherwise I would fein no
knowledge of 'ai') (ok, really off taget with the discussion here) and regen
which doesn't require any extra contactors. However, finding a motor that
does > 72 volts and is SepEx is turning out to be a bit of a sticky wicket:
Material handling seems to use these motors the most, but they are typically
72 volts or under. I asked one 'common ev motor maker,'
shall I say,
and they said using their 72 volt, 8" motor with regen at 96 volts would
likely work, for some time anyway, but that WHEN/IF the field and armature
current gets out of balance (which they can't verify because their dyno
doesn't go to 96 volts) then you get first arcing and sparkingat the
commutator end, then you burn up the motor; otherwise, the motor just runs
hotter and faster.
So, likely experimenting with one of these 72 volt motors is not
probably a good idea ...
Any one have any other sugestions for say a 96 volt SepEx motor (since it
would beeven harder to find a SepEx controller above 96 volts, I can only
imagine)?
Also, as to 'controllers the nth option' - has anyone seriously
considered Zapis series motor controllers, they seem to go up to 1000 Amps
if you like, 120 volts, don't seem really high priced. Less user friendly
than Curtis since their wiring is more difficult, but if you're going to try
to make your own controller, a few extra wires and manual reading shouldn't
be so difficult ... I've heard they had some problem with contactors wearing
out, but that (they said) that "Also, the bad experience that many people
have had with contactors relates to a lack of sealing of the tips. If you
get a sealed contactor, you should not have trouble. In general, the
contactor will close and stay closed during operation. Since there will be
no need to open and close the contactor, the life should be longer than
others have experienced with regen and forward/reverse contactors."
Any comments - maybe something to revisit or try out? If so, I'll keep
y'all posted ...
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
After a few months o negotiating we are having two EV charging points
put in our local shopping mall.
Unlike those in CA these will just be simple RCD protected 16 and 13
A sockets, but they've just put the first two in! Signs are going to
be made up in the next few weeks and the whole official launch will
be March 10th along with electric cars and phevs from around the area!
Check out the very uninteresting but significant plugs appearing on
my Flickr account ! http://www.flickr.com/photos/aminorjourney/
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Russ!!
I staid out of the blatant Sales mode..
I see you could not resist!!
I run MANY Manzanita Micro PFC chargers...
One is doing Space heat chores at this very monent at the Production shop.
Many more to go..it's been a good couple of weeks.
I am over here at the office ordering more parts that we just ran out of.
Back to making Green boxes.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charger recommendation
> > Most of us on the list seem to be using Manzanita
> > Micro:
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
>
>
> Really? I'm not. I have a Russco Charger.
>
> http://www.russcoev.com/images/oj_front_batt
>
> Mike's "EV Photo Album" shows the Zivan is by far the leader in EV battery
> chargers.
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/chrgr
>
> And, according to my production records, the "EV Photo Album" represents
> only a small fraction of actual charger sales. List EV owners are
> probably more apt to list their vehicle on the "EV Photo Album" than
> "regular" EV owners, but the proportion for comparisons should be fairly
> consistent.
>
>
> Russ Kaufmann
> RUSSCO Engineering
>
> The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI
>
> http://www.russcoev.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Todd,
I wanted to ask if this is an AC or DC system, but then thought about
looking your car up in the EV Album:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/734
OK, so it's AC and the most likely cause for interference is HF conversion
of energy.
If your noise is related to how deel the accelerator is depressed, then I
guess it is the controller that sends pulses to the motor - shielding motor
cabling may solve this problem.
If the noise is present constantly and possibly only depend on activating
lights/wipers and other 12V loads, then it may be your DC/DC converter
generating a disturbance that reaches the radio, either though the air or
via the 12V wiring, so you may need to filter the 12V to get rid of that.
Hope this helps, let us know if you have more details.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Todd Martin
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: HD Radio anyone?
I've been living with extra static compared to an ICE car while listening to
the radio in my EV. Anyone have any experience with HD radio or Sirius / XM
radio on their EV?
If so, I'm curious as to the quality of the reception, dropouts, and such.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd Martin
1997 Solectria Force.
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search
weather shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jody,
I have no ideal what the range would be. I measure my range in how many
miles I drive a day and at the end of 5 to 10 days, the batteries are still
at about 75% when I charge them. I may drive any where from 2 to 5 miles a
day. When 70 Ah is remove which is about 20 to 30 miles, all at city
driving at speeds from 15 to 40 mph, I than charge them.
It only takes about 20 minutes to bulk charge the 180 volt pack to 224 volts
and if I want to, but not necessory, finish charge them which takes another
60 minutes on a PFC-50B at ampere any where from 35 to 45 amps.
I have never discharge these batteries below 73 percent. They are now going
5 years and should last me to 2012 Jan 4 or more.
The Uve's EV calculator said the range would be 140 miles in 1st gear, 115
miles in 2nd gear and 40 miles in 3rd gear at 70 mph. Of course this would
discharge the batteries to 10% which I would not get the cycle life if I did
discharge that low.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
> See EV album: Camino.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:35 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
>
> Roland,
>
> What kind of vehicle is that. Wow that sucker is heavy! What kind
> of range do you get with T145s?
>
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 13:55
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
>
> Hello John,
>
> I am running a Warp 9, Zilla 1k and 180 volts of T-145's with a 1st gear
> ratio of 19.495:1, a 2nd gear ratio of 13.925:1 and a 3rd gear ratio of
> 5.57:1 in a 6860 lb EV. About 1/3 of my weight is batteries.
>
> In 1st gear at 25 mph which is 6000 rpm the battery amperes is about 50
> amps
> and the motor amps is about 80. In 2nd gear at 35 mph which is 6000 rpm
> the
>
> battery amperes is about 70 amps and motor amps is at 120. In 3rd gear
> the
> battery amps is about 180 amps and motor amps is at about 250 amps.
>
> This data is very close to the Uve's EV calculator, if you subtract and
> accessory drive loads that may be driven off the pilot shaft of the motor,
> which I can de-clutch and any DC-DC converters that come off the battery.
>
> Plugging in different motors will also give you different results. For
> example my GE-11.5 inch motor with commentator poles that is rated at
> 165 volts and has a service factor of 1.5 or 247 volts max can run very
> efficient at 165 volts which is the maximum voltage sag I allow the 180 V
> pack to drop.
>
> This 11.5 in. motor at 60 mph has a battery amps of 170 amps at 60 mph
> instead of the 9 inch at 180 amps at 50 mph.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:06 AM
> Subject: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
>
>
> > I was plugging-in different scenarios for my pickup project and
> noticed
> > that for one likely configuration I might use (9" ADC, 144 volts
> T-145,
> > Curtis 1231) that the most efficient point of operation was generally
> in
> > the lowest gear possible (i.e. highest numerically) without
> overspeeding
> > the motor. "Most efficient" for me means minimum battery amps used.
> >
> > For example, at 40 mph 1st gear is most efficient (66 amps), with 2nd
> gear
> > requiring 78 amps and 3rd gear 84 amps. RPM in 1st would be 6600 or
> so
> > which isn't something I'd probably subject the motor to for very long.
> At
> > higher speeds the difference seems to diminish (ex. 60 mph in 2nd gear
>
> > would pull 191 amps with 3rd requiring 202 amps).
> >
> > I'm curious as to what opinions are; is this because of the 9" motors
> > theoretical efficiency curve? Does real-life bear these calculations
> out?
> > etc. 40 mph is a popular speed out here in the country so this may be
> a
> > practical question after all.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Frank
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ____________
> > Don't pick lemons.
> > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you should Get some new batteries. I get 10+ miles from 13 Yts or
Orbitals, And have for quite a while.
With AGMs you need a charger with solid voltage limiting and Regs of some
sort.
That's about it. No real magic, just solid stuff.
I would never go back to Floodeds.. just too much mess and lack of power.
With your Curtis use 12 Yts and 10 mile range is almost a given. Pretty
simple math.
Of course having a 1200 amp controller makes that a fast and fun ride.
But my EV are for fun, and range is not the most important issue. But .. I
can make a 10 mile round trip, That from here that's to and from the
Kingston Ferry dock. Just about all I need.
4 mile range.. Dead lead.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: Reality Check
> I've been working on my EV over the past few months and need a reality
check on the performance ... that is before I assume the batteries are bad
and replace them.
>
> The car is:
> 93 Festiva
> 9" ADC
> 96 V - 8 x 12 Deka AGM Group 24, 78 AH at 20 Amp rate
> GE EV-1B controller / 5H9 card - running at 96 V / 320 Motor Amps max /
300 Hz frequency
> No DC-DC, nothing connected to tail shaft of 9" motor.
> Approx weight is 2200 lb.
> Tires - 13" inflated to 45 PSI rear (seems a little high, but that is
what they were at when the car arrived) / 35 PSI front.
> Motor is stock, brushes look OK, 9600 EV miles on motor (never serviced)
>
> Car originally had:
> 400 A Curtis 1221B, but it blew up all the FETs and diodes on the power
stage
> 13 x 8 T-875's that were last replaced in the year 2000. They were very
bad, so I just took them out and put in a hand me down set of batts, which I
assume are also well past their useful life.
> It supposedly originally had a 20 mile usable range in real world
conditions with a top speed of 70 MPH.
>
> Currently:
> I get about 55 MPH top speed and only 4 mile range which is 1/2 mile per
battery. The acceleration is very good all considered. I think as good or
better than stock ICE. I know the batts are small and the EV-1 is a battery
eater, but is that all I can expect for range. I only need 4 miles, but I'm
afraid of what might happen on a cold day. I'm literally coasting the last
1/4 mile.
>
> I figure the car is no worse than 300 Wh-hr / mile, so I am getting only
1200 Wh-hr usable energy out of that pack ... At 20 A drain, it should be
7800 Wh-hr. Derate it 50% for EV drain rate (a guess) is still 3900 Wh-hr.
Max DOD = 80% leaves only 3120 Wh-hr. That means I should be able to get 10
miles.
>
> But, I've heard of other people only getting about 15 miles out of a 12
x 12 of Optimas. So, maybe my batts really aren't that good at EV drain
rates. I'm sure they are AGM. Or, is it simply the EV-1 that is killing
them with 500 A+ pulses at a 300 Hz rate.
>
> I've got a Curtis 550 A that I could put in and compare. I was also
thinking about changing one batt in the string for a brand new one and see
if it has drastic different performance than the used batts.
>
> This just doesn't add up to me, but I don't see what could be wrong
besides the batts being near dead. But, a friend is using the same batts,
same age in his car and is getting 13 miles out of a 12 x 12 string on
Curtis 500 A driving ADC 8" about 2500-2800 lb car. The batts are the same
batch and were used equally. I know because I got them from him. So, what
could be wrong with my car vs his? Could it really be the EV-1 killing them
that bad?
>
> Or, am I simply not fully charging them. He has a very nice Delta Q
charger, and I have an old beast of a BC-20 followed by a 2A trickle charge
for hours and hours. After charge, I get between 103 and 105 V out of the
96 V pack (after several hours of rest following charger shut off). He is
getting about the same finish voltage on a per batt basis.
>
> It's just a mystery to me. As much as I love the AGMs, I think I better
go back to flooded on my next set. I can get 12 V / 80 AH flooded deep
cycle (also group 24) with something like 600 A max drain for 5 sec. At EV
running drain of about 100 A, I figure they should be good for 10 mile range
to 80% DOD. Or, am I wrong? I don't even know if those things will really
hold up at 100 A drain, even if only in short bursts for 4 miles / day ...
It's about $525 for a set of 8. I'd like 120 Ah or higher, but they don't
come in group 24. There really isn't a good solution for my 96 V system / 4
mile typical range / day. I looked at Optimas and Orbitals, but those
things only have 50 AH. 80% DOD, 40 AH. That's nothing when you only have
8 batts. My experience with flooded golf cart batts is slow because of all
the weight. I want 12 V to keep the weight down
>
> Thanks for any suggestions,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Did you measure individual battery voltages?
Especially after arriving back home - you say you are coasting,
so that means the pack voltage is way down and you are already
reversing cells.
As soon as you come home, grab a meter and measure each of the 8 batteries
and write the voltage down.
Then charge them fully, let them sit several hours and measure them again.
That will tell you if they are in balance (they probably are not) and how
much out of balance they are.
Having 1 or 2 bad batteries can ruin the performance of a pack, so you may
need to find the bad ones if the rest is OK and only upgrade (to comparable
hand-me-downs) for the bad batteries.
Did your friend test these batteries before giving them to you?
Adding a reg (even if it is a simple zener reg) to each battery will keep
them better in balance and optimize your range.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Reality Check
I think you should Get some new batteries. I get 10+ miles from 13 Yts or
Orbitals, And have for quite a while.
With AGMs you need a charger with solid voltage limiting and Regs of some
sort.
That's about it. No real magic, just solid stuff.
I would never go back to Floodeds.. just too much mess and lack of power.
With your Curtis use 12 Yts and 10 mile range is almost a given. Pretty
simple math.
Of course having a 1200 amp controller makes that a fast and fun ride.
But my EV are for fun, and range is not the most important issue. But .. I
can make a 10 mile round trip, That from here that's to and from the
Kingston Ferry dock. Just about all I need.
4 mile range.. Dead lead.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: Reality Check
> I've been working on my EV over the past few months and need a reality
check on the performance ... that is before I assume the batteries are bad
and replace them.
>
> The car is:
> 93 Festiva
> 9" ADC
> 96 V - 8 x 12 Deka AGM Group 24, 78 AH at 20 Amp rate
> GE EV-1B controller / 5H9 card - running at 96 V / 320 Motor Amps max /
300 Hz frequency
> No DC-DC, nothing connected to tail shaft of 9" motor.
> Approx weight is 2200 lb.
> Tires - 13" inflated to 45 PSI rear (seems a little high, but that is
what they were at when the car arrived) / 35 PSI front.
> Motor is stock, brushes look OK, 9600 EV miles on motor (never serviced)
>
> Car originally had:
> 400 A Curtis 1221B, but it blew up all the FETs and diodes on the power
stage
> 13 x 8 T-875's that were last replaced in the year 2000. They were very
bad, so I just took them out and put in a hand me down set of batts, which I
assume are also well past their useful life.
> It supposedly originally had a 20 mile usable range in real world
conditions with a top speed of 70 MPH.
>
> Currently:
> I get about 55 MPH top speed and only 4 mile range which is 1/2 mile per
battery. The acceleration is very good all considered. I think as good or
better than stock ICE. I know the batts are small and the EV-1 is a battery
eater, but is that all I can expect for range. I only need 4 miles, but I'm
afraid of what might happen on a cold day. I'm literally coasting the last
1/4 mile.
>
> I figure the car is no worse than 300 Wh-hr / mile, so I am getting only
1200 Wh-hr usable energy out of that pack ... At 20 A drain, it should be
7800 Wh-hr. Derate it 50% for EV drain rate (a guess) is still 3900 Wh-hr.
Max DOD = 80% leaves only 3120 Wh-hr. That means I should be able to get 10
miles.
>
> But, I've heard of other people only getting about 15 miles out of a 12
x 12 of Optimas. So, maybe my batts really aren't that good at EV drain
rates. I'm sure they are AGM. Or, is it simply the EV-1 that is killing
them with 500 A+ pulses at a 300 Hz rate.
>
> I've got a Curtis 550 A that I could put in and compare. I was also
thinking about changing one batt in the string for a brand new one and see
if it has drastic different performance than the used batts.
>
> This just doesn't add up to me, but I don't see what could be wrong
besides the batts being near dead. But, a friend is using the same batts,
same age in his car and is getting 13 miles out of a 12 x 12 string on
Curtis 500 A driving ADC 8" about 2500-2800 lb car. The batts are the same
batch and were used equally. I know because I got them from him. So, what
could be wrong with my car vs his? Could it really be the EV-1 killing them
that bad?
>
> Or, am I simply not fully charging them. He has a very nice Delta Q
charger, and I have an old beast of a BC-20 followed by a 2A trickle charge
for hours and hours. After charge, I get between 103 and 105 V out of the
96 V pack (after several hours of rest following charger shut off). He is
getting about the same finish voltage on a per batt basis.
>
> It's just a mystery to me. As much as I love the AGMs, I think I better
go back to flooded on my next set. I can get 12 V / 80 AH flooded deep
cycle (also group 24) with something like 600 A max drain for 5 sec. At EV
running drain of about 100 A, I figure they should be good for 10 mile range
to 80% DOD. Or, am I wrong? I don't even know if those things will really
hold up at 100 A drain, even if only in short bursts for 4 miles / day ...
It's about $525 for a set of 8. I'd like 120 Ah or higher, but they don't
come in group 24. There really isn't a good solution for my 96 V system / 4
mile typical range / day. I looked at Optimas and Orbitals, but those
things only have 50 AH. 80% DOD, 40 AH. That's nothing when you only have
8 batts. My experience with flooded golf cart batts is slow because of all
the weight. I want 12 V to keep the weight down
>
> Thanks for any suggestions,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day Jim
> I don't suppose I can twist your arm to "spill the
> beans" on how you are
> doing the banding?
>
> How you get the kevlar really tight, what you lock
> it down with, etc?
>
> A step-by-step would be great to read (...so just at
> the point here where
> you need to have a third hand for this and a fourth
> hand for that, the
> telephone will ring...)
>
> Thanks
>
> [Technik] James
Hey James
It's a little hard to take pics with slimy resin
coated glooves on but I'll grab some if I can find a
third person to snap some next time I do one. It's
hard enough just keeping the resin off my lathe!
Dan (the airplane man)(he builds planes two doors down
from me) is the one who got me the stuff, being it's
something he works with a lot. I do have some numbers
of the resin which is supposed to be a thermal setting
resin which I bake at 400 degrees after it's cured a
day once it's applied to the comm. Supposidly if
baked at lets say 400 degrees it wont soften up until
it reaches a temp above that.
I'll have to get the spec's on the thread weight on
the Kevlar. The type I'm using is a 5 thread style
where I use just one of the strands.
At this point it's a two man operation and is just
applied by hand. One slowly hand turns the lathe
chuck as the other applies it with as much tension as
can be applied while squeegying off the excess resin
from the Kevlar thread. It's important to not fill in
the mica slots with resin being you can't undercut it
once applied. BTW if the phone rings, I let it ring
if I'm doing this process lol. No matter how careful
we are the comm must be sanded and detailed after it's
applied.
The hard part is actually cutting the grooves and then
removing any and all the chips. To get there I
actually have to assemble the motor and mark where the
grooves are to be cut. The inner (riser end) and
outer (comm edge) grooves have some clearance but the
middle band is the one that has to be "dead on balls
accurate" (it's a technical term lmao!) Being every
motor can have a little different tolerance it has to
be done that way.
As to what this means to the RPM limit honestly I have
no idea. I can tell you that Dan wanted to just band
up John Bensons comm with 3 cracks running from shaft
bore to the comm bars! I was less trusting and opted
for a new comm plus the banding. Anyway that's how
sure of it Dan is!
I'm able to get 5 to 6 wraps around the comm with a
pretty stout thread (more like a string sized thread).
Dan says it'd smoke his mind if a three banded comm
blew, although I know there are those out there who
could do it, LMAO!
Now with the Warp motors there isn't a "middle band"
area on the comm where a middle band can be applied on
their current 9" motors (ADC's have a seperater bar
between the brushes). On a two banded comm (inner,
outer only) it's my fear that the bars could just
bulge out in the middle and still fail. The middle
banding is key to preventing that from happening and
is much stronger.
Being Dan's the guy who works with a lot of composits
I rely on his knowlege and input. Face it, not a lot
of forklift motors need Kevlar banding so I'm pretty
new to it lol. As I've stated before, obtaining data
on this just makes me cringe. Believe it or not the
only banded comm's I've done so far are for daily
drivers and I doubt any of them are willing to push it
to find out! Sorry but I'm not in the position to go
after blowing up 9" motors either, hehe!
I've been really slack updating my site and I know it.
I'll try hard to motivate and get some stuff up and
I'll add this to the list of things to put up.
I did want to state that this wasn't my idea but done
to satisfy requests I got to help prevent damages
people had, most of which could have been prevented by
watching motor RPM's which started my replys to this
thread. In fact I'm not even sure if any of the
banded motor are yet even installed. Any of you
banded boys out there have any input yet?
Anyway I hope this helps a little until I can get
something up at the site.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
