EV Digest 6463
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charger tweaks
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Li-Ion Juice Maker
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Charger tweaks
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: GE EV-1 SCR Controller question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fixing Mark's S-10 EV RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Green Meanie motors on Ebay
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Warp, ADC, rehash, was Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Breaker mounting
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Reality Check
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re Zivan pf correction
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Optima batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's easy enough to tweak a Lester etc, just get say a 6V 15A
> secondary transformer and buck or boost the output if you want to
> increase of decrease the voltage.
How would you connect that when the secondary has a center tap?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I and like one of the posters said im throwing
> meat into a cage full of lions. I would like to help
> everyone that i can.
Hey Patrick
You guys wouldn't happen to want to sponsor a
Hi-Torque drag car would you?? LMAO!! Sorry couldn't
resist. Welcome to the list.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Patrick,
Welcome and let me try to sketch a picture for you regaring drive trains in
use on EVs, not clear boundaries as there is a wild variety out there:
Evs come in either DC or AC drive, the majority (and mostly self-converted)
are DC.
The pack voltages go roughly from 48V to well over 300V, often as a function
of performance although there are exceptions, leading to extreme currents at
low voltage.
Around 48V most EVs are either NEV or Motorcycle, very light vehicles may be
allowed on the Freeway but hardly any will attain the required speed at this
voltage.
96V to 144V is a popular range for middle of the road cars and trucks, often
using Flooded 6V Golfcart batteries.
192V is the area of some high performance sedans, matching or beating the
speed and peppiness of the original ICE
300V and above is either the area of racers (DC systems) or factory
conversion AC systems.
Then there are a few low voltage AC units and I probably forgot some DC
systems, but this is an overview of controller and battery pack systems.
Regarding current: racers generally require 1000A peak or more, while many
AC factory conversions are at the low end of the scale with around 200A max.
The DC systems fall in between these, dependent on weight, voltage and use,
but 400 to 600A peak are common numbers. Only motorcycles will be able to
live with much less.
My guess of the chemistry mix is that about 90% of all EVs on the road are
using Lead-Acid batteries, though there is an increasing interest in
advanced batteries, the major obstacles being availability, reliability and
price.
Mechanical view of the drivetrains:
Homebrew conversions often use a stick-shift 2 wheel drive car to rip the
ICE out and mate an electric motor with the existing transmission.
Some (racing) DC conversions use a transmissionless design and send the
output from the motor straight to the differential. Most AC conversions are
direct drive, because the AC motors can usually reach twice as high RPMs as
DC motors due to the lack of commutator - the single most vulnerable part in
the electric motor.
For example my truck (S10) has a 9,000 RPM redlined AC motor, powered by a
312V 110Ah battery pack via a 700V 250A capable 3-phase inverter.
Using a manual gearbox locked in 2nd gear allows the truck to reach 72 mph
at the 9000 rev limit.
I use this truck for daily commute and errands and it is in weekly use for
being a truck with a long bed.
Hope this gives you an idea.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Andrews
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Sorry the title is stupid but i wanted to keep with my theme so you knew it
was me. Im not out to get rich im here like everyone else trying to get
information i need and help anyone else in need i wasn't expecting as many
replies as i have gotten. I and like one of the posters said im throwing
meat into a cage full of lions. I would like to help everyone that i can.
what i will do is put together a set of documents that will show everyone my
method of assembly. If you are not aware of Vecture Inc. located in canada
then they are a great source of PCB and chargers. Anything is possible with
Li-Ion. And yes prices are very high however i work independently for a
company named Emerging Power based in Korea and im able to get cells for an
extremely low price. Im going to get some information for you animals out
there. Im new to the EV scene and I would like to know about the drive
train used in the vehicles motor transmission so on. Ill get back to
everyone who replies to my post. or feel free to email me directly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Find what you need at prices you'll love. Compare products and save at
MSN(r) Shopping.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use either a 6V transformer with two separate secondary windings or two 6V
transformers, so you can supplement both sides of the centre-tapped
transformer with a few volts.
Alternative is to remove wiring at the primary side to cranck up the ratio,
but that can lead to less desirable effects such as a higher blind current
and running hotter.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger tweaks
--- "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It's easy enough to tweak a Lester etc, just get say a 6V 15A
> secondary transformer and buck or boost the output if you want to
> increase of decrease the voltage.
How would you connect that when the secondary has a center tap?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DM3 wrote:
> I put in a pack that fully charged is 118vdc (-8- GM Ovonics
> NiMH batteries). My GE EV-1 has 96v series/48v parallel
> modes. Here's my question. In 96 mode, the power fluctuates
> after a couple of minutes, just dropping out when giving the
> controller a lot of volts---3/4 throttle. Power is restored
> and operates normally when I switch to 48v parallel mode.
> Could it be that the Controller is getting too much voltage
> when in series mode, and drops out for that reason? I've
> checked all the connections, and can't find anything loose.
Check your pack voltage when in 96V mode and the powre fluctuates. My
suspicion is that you may have a weak cell(s) and they are having
trouble keeping up with the high peak current that the EV-1 controller
is trying to demand of them.
Varying the thtottle position does not vary the voltage that the
controller is subjected to; that is the controller sees full pack
voltage when your foot is off the throttle and sees about the same
voltage (a bit to a lot less due to battery sag and IR drop in the
wiring) at full throttle. So, the problem is not/cannot be too much
voltage when stepping on the throttle.
Dropping the pack to 48V parallel mode does two things: for a given
motor speed, the peak current demanded by the controller is less, and it
is divided between two strings of batteries so each sees only half (in
theory) the demanded current.
If one of the strings has one or more bad cells, it may supply little of
the load current, but now it is out of the way so that "good" string can
supply the required current. With all the cells in series, one or more
weak/dead cells will limit the performance more noticably.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800 (PST)
>--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> He, like the auto companies, are blaming EV's for their
>> own mistakes.
>> And by simply changing bodies, bed, lowering drag,
>> lightening things up, ect, he could have a good cost
>> effective EV at a reasonable price with great range,
>> battery life.
>
>I would like to know more. What can you change on an S-10
>that isn't batteries, motor or frame that can make a
>substantial enough difference to actually extend range, and
>still be a pickup? I would estimate the body to weigh
>maybe 1000lbs. I still need a seat, glass, bumpers and
>lights, and even composite body panels would have weight,
>so how much could I possibly save, a few hundred pounds at
>the most? Or am I missing something more obvious than that?
First the point was cost effectiveness of Ev's. So we
will maxamixe that too.
I'd start by replacing the cab, front with an RX-7
front 1/2, saving about 500lbs, next replace the bed with a
composite aero one, saving about another 125 lbs. Replace
those bumpers with a light spring steel backing behind a
foam front aero shaped saving probably another 50 lbs.
Now we have dropped 675lbs, I'm guessing, anyone who
knows the cab/hood section, bed, bumper?
Wait a minute.
Your EV weighs 4600 lb - 1600 lbs batteries weighs
3000 lbs. The chassis must weigh about 1300lbs including
the motor so that leaves the cab, bed weighing 1700 lbs?
This all seems high. According to your EVDL Photo Album
entry. <http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/9>
Let's start again. A RX-7 front body 1/2 weighs about
300lbs and a composite, aero bed weighs about 125 lbs so
that's a 1,275 lb savings. Let's call it 1100lbs savings in
case I'm off some. Kind of a lightweight mini El Camino.
Now at 3500 lbs you now have 45% battery weight vs 35%
before so your batts while have 25% less load, stress just
from less accelerating weight plus lower rolling drag. So
in stop and go traffic, you need less power so you increase
range under 40 mph about 30% and/or have longer battery
life, decreasing your battery cost about 30%.
> This thing has the Cd of a brick, but since it spends most
>of it's time below 40mph, I don't think aerodynamics are
>going to improve things to any great extent.
I answered under 40 mph above but let's look at higher
speeds anyway as most do some.
Now that rolling resistance has been dropped, maybe
more by going to Prius tires, low drag fuilds and an aero
underbody, you now have a lower CDA of say 18sq' vs the
S-10's CDA of 24sq', a 25% improvement added to a Cd of
probably .28-.32 with some work giving you about 37% less
aero drag, power needed at speed, again increasing your
range at speed, lowering the stress on the batteries by
about 40%.
Again I'm guessing here based on given numbers, my
experiences which with a 1985
S-10's is small. Maybe your weight included 3 passengers,
cargo?
So if anyone actually knows what any of these
weights are or other corrections, let's pin this down?
What changes
>would you suggest, and not detract from the function or
>safety of the vehicle?
Now you keep adding things :^p
One could add some rollbars to make it safer but to be
honest, pick ups are not known for safety either.
The function would change, people would love your hot
looking EV pickup and would go 30% farther, for about 1/3
less money while carrying the same load!!!
You might want to turn down your controller to the
previous performance to increase batt life more. It's a
little large for those batts, especially with all that
weight and can benefit from lower batt amp limit if it has
it.
As for driving fast, one can drive smart like drive
1/2 mile ahead to be in the correct lane, not speeding to a
red light, less slowing, stopping and still get there as
fast or even faster on much less energy than many driving
'fast'. More intersting, safer too.
Comments?
Jerry Dycus
>
>Mark Brueggemann
>Albuquerque, NM
>S-10 EV
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick, to follow up on what Cor has said. I expect if you make a battery
that is about the size of a car battery producing 12V 100Ah with BMS you
will have a form factor that could work for most EVers. Most EVers today
already use 6/12V batteries of some kind in their EV, and if you had a drop
in replacement in LiIon it would make upgrade to your battery much easier.
Of course there are things to consider such as power density, life
expectancy and, of course, purchase price.
You may also want to consider a smaller unit for bicycles that can be series
ganged for motorcycles.
We have a few others on the list who are manufacturing and selling EV
products:
Otmar - The high performance Zilla DC controller
Rich - PFC Chargers
and under development:
Jerry - 3 wheel EV
Lee - Sunrise sedan EV
Victor - BMS and instrumentation
It would be nice if your battery could be added to the list.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: February 23, 2007 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Hi Patrick,
Welcome and let me try to sketch a picture for you regaring drive trains in
use on EVs, not clear boundaries as there is a wild variety out there:
Evs come in either DC or AC drive, the majority (and mostly self-converted)
are DC.
The pack voltages go roughly from 48V to well over 300V, often as a function
of performance although there are exceptions, leading to extreme currents at
low voltage.
Around 48V most EVs are either NEV or Motorcycle, very light vehicles may be
allowed on the Freeway but hardly any will attain the required speed at this
voltage.
96V to 144V is a popular range for middle of the road cars and trucks, often
using Flooded 6V Golfcart batteries.
192V is the area of some high performance sedans, matching or beating the
speed and peppiness of the original ICE 300V and above is either the area of
racers (DC systems) or factory conversion AC systems.
Then there are a few low voltage AC units and I probably forgot some DC
systems, but this is an overview of controller and battery pack systems.
Regarding current: racers generally require 1000A peak or more, while many
AC factory conversions are at the low end of the scale with around 200A max.
The DC systems fall in between these, dependent on weight, voltage and use,
but 400 to 600A peak are common numbers. Only motorcycles will be able to
live with much less.
My guess of the chemistry mix is that about 90% of all EVs on the road are
using Lead-Acid batteries, though there is an increasing interest in
advanced batteries, the major obstacles being availability, reliability and
price.
Mechanical view of the drivetrains:
Homebrew conversions often use a stick-shift 2 wheel drive car to rip the
ICE out and mate an electric motor with the existing transmission.
Some (racing) DC conversions use a transmissionless design and send the
output from the motor straight to the differential. Most AC conversions are
direct drive, because the AC motors can usually reach twice as high RPMs as
DC motors due to the lack of commutator - the single most vulnerable part in
the electric motor.
For example my truck (S10) has a 9,000 RPM redlined AC motor, powered by a
312V 110Ah battery pack via a 700V 250A capable 3-phase inverter.
Using a manual gearbox locked in 2nd gear allows the truck to reach 72 mph
at the 9000 rev limit.
I use this truck for daily commute and errands and it is in weekly use for
being a truck with a long bed.
Hope this gives you an idea.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Andrews
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Sorry the title is stupid but i wanted to keep with my theme so you knew it
was me. Im not out to get rich im here like everyone else trying to get
information i need and help anyone else in need i wasn't expecting as many
replies as i have gotten. I and like one of the posters said im throwing
meat into a cage full of lions. I would like to help everyone that i can.
what i will do is put together a set of documents that will show everyone my
method of assembly. If you are not aware of Vecture Inc. located in canada
then they are a great source of PCB and chargers. Anything is possible with
Li-Ion. And yes prices are very high however i work independently for a
company named Emerging Power based in Korea and im able to get cells for an
extremely low price. Im going to get some information for you animals out
there. Im new to the EV scene and I would like to know about the drive
train used in the vehicles motor transmission so on. Ill get back to
everyone who replies to my post. or feel free to email me directly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Find what you need at prices you'll love. Compare products and save at
MSN(r) Shopping.
http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN2
0A0701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
shawn u really no how to rub in the salt er sun
----- Original Message -----
From: Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Green Meanie motors on Ebay
<snip>
You know you just can't trust those Floridians, hehe.
At least this way if they're gonna be raced they have
a better chance of actually getting a record, ohh 8^P
Anyway what's the scoop?
Cya
Jim
</snip>
Ouch man! Is that what happens to you people up there when you don't see the
sun for months and freeze all winter??? You get a little cranky. Relax! Have
a beer - you know it'll be a cold one! ;-)
The guy who bought the motors is going to be putting both of them on a nice
hi performance street bike. Speaking with him, it sounds like he is gonna
try to go take on some local gasers with CBR600's. I'm sure he'll be posting
soon about it. With those motors and the rest of setup, he should need
flight clearance before he takes it out! I'll let him announce the
details...
See ya,
Shawn
(In FL - oh look, there's the sun again...)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jeff, all
This is the kind of thing I've talked about how a
whole herd can be judged by looking at one horse and
something I try to be really careful not to do.
I've seen more blown ADC 9's than Warp 9's. Now I
have no idea what the ratio is out there for people
using them. I'd bet that there are people out there
with the exact opossite view as you have and for the
same reason their ADC blew on them, lol.
IMO when a comm is tigged to the windings if not done
right it can damage the inner core of the commutator
regardless of whether it's a solid riser or what I
call a stacked riser where the wire is connected
directly to the comm bars. Here's my take on some of
the differences.
More material in a solid riser acts as a heat sink and
adds to the material mass of each winding. A solid
riser is more rigid and it'd be tough to knock a
winding and bend it out of place. A solid riser takes
more heat to weld and retains it longer though and
again IMO probably adds to possible damage from over
heating vs. a stacked riser which heats and cool
quicker. The stacked riser being open between each
winding wire acts a lot like a fan and wisks heat away
and in fact might counter the heat sink ability of the
solid type. NetGain motors use a longer comm bar to
achieve that same mass issue (made up by the riser
mass on the shorter ADC comm) to achieve equal winding
mass.
What I've been taught is you want the same mass in the
two connecting comm bars as the mass of the windings
that run between them or the comm is the weak link
(the comms on Kostovs are a perfect example)(if they
had a beefier comm they'd be awesome). Thought I
might want to explain what I am babbling about 8^)
Anyway Warfield builds a good motor. I've caught at
least one "oops" but I doubt they have very many.
I've also found stuff on ADC's and in fact just
recently noticed that when I gutted out Lawless' new
brush leads (being I'm upgrading them) that 2 lead
connecter screws that attach the lead to the copper
jumper were 2 complete turns shy of seating and I
could spin it, it was that loose. This is why I
recommend testing all current connections before
juicing them up even if it's new. Better and easier
to make sure their tight than arcing something off,
lol.
George Hamstra of NetGain and I have talked enough for
me to know that he is comitted to selling quality
products and has been very helpful to many EV'ers.
Nobody bats a 1000%, I can remember Beech Electric in
Michagin getting tons and tons of Prestolite warranty
motors they'd buy up from the factory (some with
really bad mistakes like reversed oil seals and such.
There are way to many reasons for why it happens that
I won't go into it.
I just wanted to chime in here being we are still such
a small group and word of mouth is so huge that I had
to offer my opinion and a little defence to Warp
motors from what I feel was a bad experience that may
or may not have been prevented. Hey you get that rev
limiter installed yet Jeff?? hehehe!
Honestly there are things that I like and don't like
on both styles. Mostly it's because I'm anal.
Like my good buddy Bob Rice would say, just my two
comm bars worth.
Got to run
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I dissassembled a warp 9's commutator and it was the
> cheapest,weakest
> type. copper bars have little feet in the mica
> filled plastic. There are
> no risers, just the windings welded to the bar.
> These "stacked" windings
> and the fact that the welding probably compromises
> the plastic
> underneath if done wrong leads to a failure-mode
> where the windings lift
> out the bars. In my case the plastic just gave way,
> not 1 of the 59 bars
> broke the copper nubs off in the plastic. In a pure
> case on irony, the
> ADC comms were better. It annoys me that
> manufactures try to save a few
> bucks relative to the overall sale price. At one
> time, I checked into a
> commutator manufacturer and if 5 of us got together
> we could get the
> steel mica and copper v-ring style commutators for
> about $110 each.
>
> Jim Husted had pictures of my disassembled
> commutator up on his web site
> at www.*hi**torque**electric*.com in the oops
> category, but I can't get
> to the site this morning to check.
>
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As for the squat characteristics, I wouldn't worry much in a three
> wheeler where weight transfer is not so critical as a bike, but
> perhaps I misunderstood your design?
I was referencing another post's standard swingarm/chassis behavior.
When torque is applied from the chassis-mounted motor to the rear wheel
via a swingarm, there is:
* anti-squat upon acceleration (swing-arm pushes the tail end up) and
* squat upon deceleration (swing-arm pulls the tail end down)
Especially with the near-instantaneous torque available from an electric
motor, I suspect that it may be easier to move the whole suspension to
its upper limit than to spin the rear wheel from a stop, and that it
might be easier to move the whole suspension to its lower limit than to
stop the rear wheel, at speed... even more-so considering that the
majority of the mass (batteries) will be on the front axle, so weight
transfer should be minimal (other than my own butt).
I guess that I need to white-board a vector diagram out, to see what
changes if I mount the swing-arm pivot lower or higher than the wheelhub
center. In any case, by mounting the motor to the swingarm, I'd no
longer be transmitting power across the swingarm pivot to the chassis --
when I started writing this email, I thought that might be a good thing
(less sure now whether this becomes a hard-tail/soft-tail discussion).
> I wouldn't want drivetrain parts vibrating with the suspension...
Is vibration really a significant issue for electric motors? All the
other bits would be off the swingarm and mounted to the better-dampened
main chassis.
> nor would I want to deal with the effect of adding unsprung weight.
Definitely a concern, but negative effects should be reduced (both
vibration and weight) if you anchor the motor close to the swingarm
pivot. If anchored exactly on the pivot but attached to the swingarm, it
is unsprung weight (with some rotational mass, tho), and most forces
imparted by the swingarm would just rotate the motor around its axis (or
vice versa, as confused by my first point).
Randii
-----Original Message-----
From: john fisher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 2:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
Several of the Chinese mini buggies use a swing-arm rear suspension like
an ATV, with concentric sprockets so that there
is no change at all in chain tension. In fact big sand buggies often use
dual swing-arms set up like this. As for the
squat characteristics, I wouldn't worry much in a three wheeler where
weight transfer is not so critical as a bike, but
perhaps I misunderstood your design?
I wouldn't want drivetrain parts vibrating with the suspension, nor
would I want to deal with the effect of adding
unsprung weight. but thats just me.
HTH
John Fisher
Randy Burleson wrote:
>>
> I'm sketching a setup for a 3-wheeler that seems a better compromise
--
> mount the motor to the swing-arm directly. Sprung weight has some
> disadvantages, but if you mount the motor closer to the pivot,
effective
> leverage minimizes this impact. The more common alternative seems to
be
> mounting the motor unsprung and chain/belt-drive to the wheel, but if
> you do that, suspension movement is applied directly to chain/belt
slack
> or the motor itself.
>
> Are there any obvious flaws to this that those who have gone before
can
> identify?
>
>
> Randii
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agree with the suggestion - I thought about adding that to my overview,
as others have proposed solutions like that and no Li battery is useful
without BMS, so why not integrate it and provide a >solution< instead of
a >problem< to the customer?
Sometimes the smaller modules do not make the most cost-effective solution.
So, dependent on the capabilities of the BMS, my suggestion would be to
go for 48V modules as many vehicles are using the natural 12V (or even 6V)
in increments of 48V (I know, there are exceptions).
48V, 96V, 144V, 192V, 288V and 336V aren't they familiar values?
(OK, some would like a 24V increment to reach a certain voltage like
120V or 312V but that can be achieved with an optional half-populated
module)
I would say that the modules need to be rated to allow parallel connection
without negative effects and automatically share the current.
Using about 40Ah as the default size allows you to address motorcycles as
well
as high voltage cars.
Low voltage systems simply need to add multiple strings in parallel to get
the proper capacity and power (current), or you offer a cost-effective large
capacity version, though it may be heavy to integrate 48V and about 200Ah
into a single module.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 4:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Patrick, to follow up on what Cor has said. I expect if you make a battery
that is about the size of a car battery producing 12V 100Ah with BMS you
will have a form factor that could work for most EVers. Most EVers today
already use 6/12V batteries of some kind in their EV, and if you had a drop
in replacement in LiIon it would make upgrade to your battery much easier.
Of course there are things to consider such as power density, life
expectancy and, of course, purchase price.
You may also want to consider a smaller unit for bicycles that can be series
ganged for motorcycles.
We have a few others on the list who are manufacturing and selling EV
products:
Otmar - The high performance Zilla DC controller
Rich - PFC Chargers
and under development:
Jerry - 3 wheel EV
Lee - Sunrise sedan EV
Victor - BMS and instrumentation
It would be nice if your battery could be added to the list.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: February 23, 2007 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Hi Patrick,
Welcome and let me try to sketch a picture for you regaring drive trains in
use on EVs, not clear boundaries as there is a wild variety out there:
Evs come in either DC or AC drive, the majority (and mostly self-converted)
are DC.
The pack voltages go roughly from 48V to well over 300V, often as a function
of performance although there are exceptions, leading to extreme currents at
low voltage.
Around 48V most EVs are either NEV or Motorcycle, very light vehicles may be
allowed on the Freeway but hardly any will attain the required speed at this
voltage.
96V to 144V is a popular range for middle of the road cars and trucks, often
using Flooded 6V Golfcart batteries.
192V is the area of some high performance sedans, matching or beating the
speed and peppiness of the original ICE 300V and above is either the area of
racers (DC systems) or factory conversion AC systems.
Then there are a few low voltage AC units and I probably forgot some DC
systems, but this is an overview of controller and battery pack systems.
Regarding current: racers generally require 1000A peak or more, while many
AC factory conversions are at the low end of the scale with around 200A max.
The DC systems fall in between these, dependent on weight, voltage and use,
but 400 to 600A peak are common numbers. Only motorcycles will be able to
live with much less.
My guess of the chemistry mix is that about 90% of all EVs on the road are
using Lead-Acid batteries, though there is an increasing interest in
advanced batteries, the major obstacles being availability, reliability and
price.
Mechanical view of the drivetrains:
Homebrew conversions often use a stick-shift 2 wheel drive car to rip the
ICE out and mate an electric motor with the existing transmission.
Some (racing) DC conversions use a transmissionless design and send the
output from the motor straight to the differential. Most AC conversions are
direct drive, because the AC motors can usually reach twice as high RPMs as
DC motors due to the lack of commutator - the single most vulnerable part in
the electric motor.
For example my truck (S10) has a 9,000 RPM redlined AC motor, powered by a
312V 110Ah battery pack via a 700V 250A capable 3-phase inverter.
Using a manual gearbox locked in 2nd gear allows the truck to reach 72 mph
at the 9000 rev limit.
I use this truck for daily commute and errands and it is in weekly use for
being a truck with a long bed.
Hope this gives you an idea.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Andrews
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Li-Ion Juice Maker
Sorry the title is stupid but i wanted to keep with my theme so you knew it
was me. Im not out to get rich im here like everyone else trying to get
information i need and help anyone else in need i wasn't expecting as many
replies as i have gotten. I and like one of the posters said im throwing
meat into a cage full of lions. I would like to help everyone that i can.
what i will do is put together a set of documents that will show everyone my
method of assembly. If you are not aware of Vecture Inc. located in canada
then they are a great source of PCB and chargers. Anything is possible with
Li-Ion. And yes prices are very high however i work independently for a
company named Emerging Power based in Korea and im able to get cells for an
extremely low price. Im going to get some information for you animals out
there. Im new to the EV scene and I would like to know about the drive
train used in the vehicles motor transmission so on. Ill get back to
everyone who replies to my post. or feel free to email me directly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Find what you need at prices you'll love. Compare products and save at
MSN(r) Shopping.
http://shopping.msn.com/default/shp/?ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24102&tcode=T001MSN2
0A0701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski said: "I bought a breaker from the surplus site. An Airpax
250A 160V. Problem is I cant find the right screw to fix it to the front
mounting holes... Tried 5mm and 9/16 and both are the right diameter but the
wrong pitch...
Web site says '# 6-32' but I cant find that around here... Any
other name for it so I can find it?
[Mick says:] I'll bet #6-32 is a misprint. I'm pretty sure I've used the
identical breaker for some of my solar electric control systems. I believe
the mounting screws are #10-32. That is 3/16" diameter (or close to 5mm),
whereas a #6 screw is less than 1/8" diameter (closer to 3mm). #10 screws
are available with a coarse thread (24 threads per inch) and a fine thread
(32 threads per inch). I think you need the fine thread #10-32. Perhaps the
supplier of that breaker would throw some in an envelope for you.
Mick Abraham
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> I've been working on my EV over the past few months and need
> a reality check on the performance ...
> The car is:
> 93 Festiva
> 9" ADC
> 96 V - 8 x 12 Deka AGM Group 24, 78 AH at 20 Amp rate
> GE EV-1B controller
> Approx weight is 2200 lb.
> Currently:
> I get about 55 MPH top speed and only 4 mile range which is
> 1/2 mile per battery. The acceleration is very good all
> considered. I think as good or better than stock ICE. I
> know the batts are small and the EV-1 is a battery eater, but
> is that all I can expect for range. I only need 4 miles, but
> I'm afraid of what might happen on a cold day. I'm literally
> coasting the last 1/4 mile.
>
> I figure the car is no worse than 300 Wh-hr / mile, so I am
> getting only 1200 Wh-hr usable energy out of that pack ... At
> 20 A drain, it should be 7800 Wh-hr.
I get 78Ah * 96V = 7488Wh at the 20-hour rate (78Ah is the 20hr rate,
not 20A rate; the 20-hour rate is 3.9A).
> Derate it 50% for EV drain rate (a guess) is still 3900 Wh-hr.
Sounds like you have the 8A24 (group 24 AGM). The spec I have says 79Ah
C/20, 140min (@25A) reserve. I don't have specs for it at higher rates,
but am taking it to be fairly similar to the 8G24 gel which is 73.6Ah
C/20 and 132min reserve. The 8G24 is spec'd at 33min @ 75A, or about
41Ah at the 2C rate. It is rated 48.5Ah C/1.
So, if you were discharging it at 75A in about 30min, you'd be right
around your estimate of 3900Wh (to 100%DOD).
How long does it take you to drive your 4mi?
> I've got a Curtis 550 A that I could put in and compare.
I'd try this first, especially if you don't have instrumentation
(E-Meter, etc) to allow accurately determining how much energy you
really are using.
With the EV-1 controller, you are really discharging your batteries at
500A peak, not at the average current, and so it is important to use
batteries that handle high current well if you want to avoid
significantly reduced range.
> This just doesn't add up to me, but I don't see what could
> be wrong besides the batts being near dead. But, a friend is
> using the same batts, same age in his car and is getting 13
> miles out of a 12 x 12 string on Curtis 500 A driving ADC 8"
> about 2500-2800 lb car.
OK; he has 12, you have 8: so with a Curtis you would expect about 8.7mi
from your pack.
Anecdotal reports in the past have suggested that range with flooded
batteries and an EV-1 is about 50% of what it is with the same batteries
and a Curtis or similar high-frequency controller. So, the 4mi you are
seeing is right about what one would expect if your batteries aren't
well-suited to high currents (either inherently, or because of being
older and used).
> I can get 12 V / 80 AH flooded deep cycle (also group 24)
> with something like 600 A max drain for 5 sec. At EV running
> drain of about 100 A, I figure they should be good for 10
> mile range to 80% DOD. Or, am I wrong? I don't even know if
> those things will really hold up at 100 A drain, even if only
> in short bursts for 4 miles / day ...
If you run a high-frequency controller like the Curtis, they might be
just fine. You really need to look at their behaviour at the discharge
rate you will subject them to. You can't use the average current when
talking about an EV-1 controller application; you need to look at what
the batteries can deliver when discharged at 500A.
I like to use US Battery specs since they have the data presented in a
very usable format on their website. The US24TM group 24 flooded is
85Ah C/20 and 47Ah C/1. At 75A is rated 30min (37.5Ah), and at 100A it
is rated 21min (35Ah).
So, at 100A there is 28Ah usable to 80%DOD, which is roughly 2688Wh at
96V nominal. You state that you think the car is running about
300Wh/mi, so I'd expect about 9mi which supports your estimate of 10mi.
> There really isn't a good solution for my 96 V
> system / 4 mile typical range / day. I looked at Optimas and
> Orbitals, but those things only have 50 AH. 80% DOD, 40 AH.
> That's nothing when you only have 8 batts.
You need to compare the batteries at similar EV-level discharge rates to
get the real picture. In the real-world, people have reported 35-37Ah
from Optimas at EV discharge rates. I specifically chose Optimas for
use in my EV-1 equipped car <http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1056>
because of their ability to shrug off high discharge currents.
On my 8mi commute, I have been getting a solid 27Ah out of a set of used
blems that are about 8 years old, when discharged by my EV-1. At 120V
nominal this would be 3240Wh, but the E-Meter keeps me honest as I see
2.6-2.7kWh in reality due to voltage sag, etc. This works out to about
the same 300Wh/mi that you figure for your car.
With just 8 batteries, I'd expect you to get about 6.5mi from a set
(probably a bit more with fresh, healthy batteries).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
'Yes. There are AC-to-AC power factor correctors. Basically, it's a big
LC filter in a box. For example, I have one from HC Power Inc, model
PMAX-4911, 115/230vac, 1500w, weighs 12 lbs.'
------------------------
Lee, can you guestimate the inductance and capacitance needed?
I have several large inductors and oil-filled capacitors left over
from a theatre organ blower project.
I assume the Zivan appears inductive. Before I break out my oscilloscope
can you get me in the ball-park?
John, ab6oh in Sylmar,
whose PV system led to the EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Larger Optima Batterys (D31) perform a little better overall than the
smaller ones. If you are considering an installation, put them somewhere where
they can be reached. They can perform well.
BUT,
occassionally, the spirals will short out, causing the batteries to internally
heat up and catch your vehicle on fire .... :-( Normally, this sometimes
occurs under high amperage loads, but can happen under normal loads (50-150
amps).
They are supposed to work under more harse environments, but, watch out.
Try the exides if you can, the performance is a little lower, but the cost is
down quite a bit. If Floodies can work, probably a good bet.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy Burleson wrote:
As for the squat characteristics, I wouldn't worry much in a three
wheeler where weight transfer is not so critical as a bike, but
perhaps I misunderstood your design?
I was referencing another post's standard swingarm/chassis behavior.
When torque is applied from the chassis-mounted motor to the rear wheel
via a swingarm, there is:
* anti-squat upon acceleration (swing-arm pushes the tail end up) and
* squat upon deceleration (swing-arm pulls the tail end down)
I think this is backwards for chain driven rear wheels, after all thats how we
do wheelies.
I can consult a Real Authority when I get home. However, my shaft driven Beemer had the opposite effect because of the
pinion-ring configuration. (oilheads have a compensator)
Especially with the near-instantaneous torque available from an electric
motor, .... no more torque than a liter bike dropping the clutch at 5000 rpm.
I guess that I need to white-board a vector diagram out, ...
I have the URL of a calculator for all this at home I can post later. I fail to see how a 3-wheeler is fundamentally
different from a bike, but I've never ridden one.
I wouldn't want drivetrain parts vibrating with the suspension...
Is vibration really a significant issue for electric motors? All the
other bits would be off the swingarm and mounted to the better-dampened
main chassis.
I dunno, but I was just expressing a general worry about jouncing something important and expensive at 20 hertz, when it
was not intended for that treatment. I'd also worry about the power cables wearing at the connections, but maybe your
movement wouldn't be too much. Perhaps I am just chicken little.
nor would I want to deal with the effect of adding unsprung weight.
Definitely a concern, but negative effects should be reduced (both
vibration and weight) if you anchor the motor close to the swingarm
pivot. If anchored exactly on the pivot but attached to the swingarm, it
is unsprung weight (with some rotational mass, tho), and most forces
imparted by the swingarm would just rotate the motor around its axis (or
vice versa, as confused by my first point).
This I agree with ;>)
I'd very much like to hear your battery-motor-weight calcs, as I am penciling
out various options now.
John Fisher
--- End Message ---
