EV Digest 6462
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Charger tweaks
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Anyone need juice 2
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: T-105 Sticker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Regenerative suspension
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Anyone need juice 2
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zivan NG3
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Anyone need juice 2
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available For
Te...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Anyone need juice 2
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Li-Ion Juice Maker
by "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: how much solar do you need?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(Li-Ion to Have 5% Hybrid Market)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: contactor controllers (was RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker
Shock)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zivan NG3
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Optima batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 6V AGM's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Slow charging
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
I wholeheartedly agree with you there - without a battery that lasts and
does not need maintenance and is priced such that there is no mental barrier
of buying the car with the electric drive, there will never be a mainstream
EV business, even though there are many enthusiasts that build their own
conversions.
That is why I keep a keen eye out for GM's follow-up on its E-flex platform
- that will give us all a platform to base any conversions on, heck - the
only conversion necessary would be to put bigger or better batteries in.
The other contender for the highest impact would be the avoidance of
chemical storage, such as the EEstor, which will make maintenance
non-existent and charging fast and without compromises. Imagine the pack
that you can move to your next EV after you retired your car because it has
done well over 200,000 miles and is mechanically worn out. It cannot come
too soon, but I know I need to wait to 2010 to see it in mass production.
<your opinion may vary>
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wow. Why do you even have an EV in the first place?
It was an interesting project. I am an engineer by trade and tinkerer at
heart. Building things is fun. I enjoy working on cars and motorcycles,
and this was something different. I was told on EVDL by several veterans of
the list that some of my ideas wouldn't work. Nearly 10 years and 50k miles
later, it's still running. I am happy to assist other EV'ers with their
projects. Check the archives, I used to be very active on EVDL. I still
respect many of the veterans still there, it's a class act.
> Its just your money that you are concerned with - dump your EV and get
> a Geo Metro. Your pocketbook will be better off.
I prefer Fords, but I need a pickup more than a car. I've considered
selling the EV but I can't buy a decent pickup for the value of the sale, so
reality says I'm stuck with it, at least near term. It's not that I'm
cheap, I ante'd up the bucks to build it no expenses spared, and have put
several packs into it over the years. It was Cor and Bruce that
spontaneously responded to my question about battery prices, I did not
solicit that. After nearly 10 years of living with an EV and decades with
ICE's, I have a very clear understanding of what makes them tick.
I'm actually not against EV's, was just pointing out with a somewhat less
myopic view of just why they haven't caught on.
If you read up on the history of EV's, dating back from the '60's up through
the crushing of EV1's, and what it takes to bring any vehicle to production,
it's easy to understand. It's easy to get caught up in the enthusiasm of
the potential, and in many ways they're fun to have. But they're not the
universal answer many believe them to be. Maybe they could be, someday.
All we need is a battery that works and there'll be one in every driveway,
including mine.
Regards,
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's easy enough to tweak a Lester etc, just get say a 6V 15A secondary
transformer and buck or boost the output if you want to increase of decrease
the voltage. I've done this plenty of times when I can't add or remove wire
from the secondary (if windings are too tight).
Cheers,
mark
Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:01:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Mark Brueggemann"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: T-105 Sitcker Shock To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer |
Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
--- Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is the difference in charge
algorithms that the Trojan > and US Battery require? I don't have the
email exhange between myself and Nawaz handy, but it amounted to me contacting
him after I noticed my range declining in a rapid way, and I reported my
charge conditions to him. His response was I wasn't getting to a high enough
finish voltage, or letting them soak long enough at the end of charge. The
conclusion I came to is you have to overcharge the hell out of them compared
to the Trojan's, which have never had any issues with the charge algorithm I
was using. Then he added a sidenote that usually as part of a sale, an
application engineer reviews the installation and recommends charge curve
modifications. In all of our exchanges previous to then that was never
mentioned, just that the USB's were better and cheaper than the Trojans. It
was implied they were a direct replacement, and it became very clear
after that, they are not. > Which charger do you use? A ferro
transformer out of a Lester, with an end of charge detector/timer/controller I
built. The USB's may be perfectly fine if properly charged, but I can't
justify replacing the charger to find out. For those with adjustable
chargers, it's probably a non-issue. Mark Brueggemann Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome, this sounds like just the experience we need on this list, and we
don't limit peoples need to promote their own products as long as it is not
outright spam. There are several list members who often talk about their
products and many of us buy from them.
So here is a starter for you. I have a 54 volt motorcycle with a 400 amp
controller. It currently has a set of flooded Nicad batteries that weighs
about 175 lbs and is good for around 35 ahr. That is almost exactly enough
to get me half way to work. I can recharge at work to be ready for the ride
home. So what will it take for you to get me into a pack that can handle
up to 400 amp peak discharges, with average current draw between 100 and 200
amps and provides me with a minimum of 80 ahrs of useable juice?
I would be surprised if you could do this for $10K, and would not be tempted
to act on it unless it was in the $3K-$4K range. I would need it to come
with a BMS that would keep me from hurting anything during charge or
discharge, and a good charging algorythm that I could implement on someone
else's charger, and I need to be able to get fully recharged within 8 hours.
Please reply to the whole list to begin our education. Like I said I don't
anticipate this is something you can do at a price that I would be
interested in, but that is not because I am not willing to spend a bundle on
a nice lithium battery pack, I am just not willing to spend a bundle on a
nice lithium battery pack to make a 32 year old motorcycle go 30 miles.
When my Honda Insight gives up the ghost that may be a whole different
story.
damon
From: "Patrick Andrews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Anyone need juice 2
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:26:07 -0500
I have the capability of building battery packs from 3.6v to 1500v there is
no limit. Depending on the customers specification and used battery price
will vary. If anyone is interested in a Li-Ion system let me know of the
general use desired voltage and A/h. These packs have electronically
controlled limits as far as Voltage high/low Temperature cutoff high/low
Amperage draw limit ect. I do freelance work for a company Emerging Power.
I don't represent a large company however i have a wealth of knowledge for
high volume production of intrinsically safe li-ion batteries. I would like
to add there is only one lithium battery system in production that has been
deemed intrinsically safe by FM Global and I was one of the engineers who
worked on it the other is a good friend of mine who was an electrical
engineer for Curtis Instruments.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > US Battery is just as good and a lot cheaper.
>
> No, not a lot cheaper.
> I don't understand that. I understand different
> charging algorithims for different battery chemistry such
> as lead vs. NiCad vs. NiMh vs. Li Ion but Pb vs. Pb?
I think I have the email exchange between Nawaz and myself
(it was 3 or so years ago now) but from what I remember he
said it was because of a difference in the paste formulation
between the two.
> What kind of charger are you using?
It's a ferro transformer, full wave rectified with a homebrew
controller. Basically constant current up until a certain
voltage, tapers and then my controller shuts it off after
a finish period. I have no (dynamic) control of current or
finish voltage, only time. Since Nawaz pointed out my finish
voltage wasn't high enough, I could leave it on forever and
it still wouldn't be high enough, therefore they never
reached 100% charge.
> I just exchanged email with Rich Rudman and he didn't say
> anything special was required between brands of lead batteries.
Talk to Nawaz. I wouldn't have thought so either, until I
saw my range turn to crap and had black electrolyte.
> I'm sorry that the costs have pushed you out of the EV hobby.
Looks like I'm still in it, it's still the cheapest of my
available options. But, you used the key phrase, "hobby".
I've spent way more on other hobbies than my EV, just that
lately I haven't spent much time with it. Maybe once I
get going with the pending equalizer project I'll be more
involved.
> I'm afraid I'll have to concur with other people in that
> you've been very lucky with your ICE vehicles....
> I've never managed to totally eliminate dealer service.
I learned early in life that quite often the people you trust to
fix your car know less about it than you do, and care about it
even less than that. I have an OBDII interface and can do my
own diagnostics, and it doesn't scare me to buy specialized tools
for engine or chassis work. So I can interchangeably work
between ICE's and EV's, I don't find one any harder to work on
than the other. There's very little to service on ICE's anymore,
most bearings and joints are sealed/lifetime, and the computer
can compensate for a wide range of sensor and actuator tolerance,
and operating conditions. I think if you've got the intelligence
to build and maintain an EV, you certainly have enough to do
anything with an ICE. You just have to be willing to try.
> ...there's something so cool about being able to get "fuel" out
> of any 110v outlet instead of designated gas stations...
I think it's cool to see my EV plugged into a wall outlet
like a 4000lb toaster, and then be going down the freeway
at 70mph knowing that the energy to do that came from that
little plug (and a great big generator 200 miles away).
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another way to accomplish this is use the shock absorbers as a pump.
The shock oil gets pumped through a small turbine generator. Not
terribly efficient, but easy to do since a shock absorber is essentially
a pump.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:53 AM
To: Kaido Kert
Subject: Re: Regenerative suspension
Bose have made regen linear suspension already.
http://www.bose.com/controller?
event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/popup/tech_details/pop_vid_susp_spee
dbump.jsp&ck=0
Or here http://tinyurl.com/2ae2nl
At the bottom right of that page you can see video showing the
comparisons between a conventional setup and their setup.
It perhaps isn't what was being talked about inasmuch as it requires
a power input to make it work but it's cool.
The Shake-a-light idea has occured to me aswell. I bought my wife one
of those torches for Christmas (not the only thing I bought her ;-) )
and I like the novelty of it, but it does have some merit.
I wouldn't know where to start by calculating output ofr a scaled up
version, or if it would be better to pack many smaller ones together,
yet.
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A short google later:
> http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-01/2006-01-20-voa29.cfm?
CFID=99046733&CFTOKEN=76443482
> "University of Texas in the city of Austin has developed a new
> electric suspension system that makes off-road rides almost as
smooth
> as those over a paved highway. Amy Katz narrates."
> "It has a spring also that supports the vehicle weight, but instead
of
> the shock absorbers it has this actuator and that actuator will put
> out any force that we command it to put out."
>
> The key components are an electric motor driving a rack and pinion
at
> each wheel, accelerometers and a computerized control system."
>
> Their system probably doesnt regen, as the goal is simply a softer
> ride. but turning that setup into regen shouldnt be a rocket
science.
>
> -kert
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Patrick,
I think you will get a lot of responses off-list, but to practical for EVs,
the pack has to have a certain capacity and capable of delivering a good
amount of energy.
If you are targeting bicycles and motorcycles, this changes scale, but to be
useful for trucks and peppy sedans, you will need to have around 20 kWh
capacity and upward of 50 kW power.
Current price in the advanced battery market make this type of pack very
expensive, up to 10x the same amount of lead acid (in capacity, not volume
or weight).
Another main criterium is cycle life.
It is perfectly acceptable to have a 10x higher priced pack if it also has
10x more cycles, as the price per mile will be equal. Having about 400
cycles from lead is reasonably good, but I think that most Lithium cycle
life expectations (at high discharge rates of over 2C!) are under 2000 so
the price per mile is usually twice that of lead.
If you have specific information (a datasheet and lifecycle test reports
would be the ultimate) then please post that info here.
I am not interested, even though I'd love to have more range and lower
weight, because my AGM pack brings me where I need to go and my budget is
limited. My truck is at:
http://evalbum.com/694
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Andrews
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 12:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Anyone need juice 2
I have the capability of building battery packs from 3.6v to 1500v there is
no limit. Depending on the customers specification and used battery price
will vary. If anyone is interested in a Li-Ion system let me know of the
general use desired voltage and A/h. These packs have electronically
controlled limits as far as Voltage high/low Temperature cutoff high/low
Amperage draw limit ect. I do freelance work for a company Emerging Power. I
don't represent a large company however i have a wealth of knowledge for
high volume production of intrinsically safe li-ion batteries. I would like
to add there is only one lithium battery system in production that has been
deemed intrinsically safe by FM Global and I was one of the engineers who
worked on it the other is a good friend of mine who was an electrical
engineer for Curtis Instruments.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
In short, yes it is a power factor issue that Zivan charger,
and/or it is also an AVCON ICS-200 charging head design
limitation.
No Zivan charger will work with the EVII ICS-200 AVCON model
because that AVCON charging head unit has an internal circuit
board that monitors peak AC current. If that circuit board sees a
high peak AC current (like from an EV conversion's charger), it
will trip and turn off AC power to the AVCON handle. Only high
power factor correction (PFC) chargers ( <90% ) will not trip
that peak current circuit.
The Zivan K2 220VAC charger I have is a 2.5kW charger (fore
runner to the N series chargers) which draws less AC current
but has the same PFC rating. When I charge my K2 off an ICS-200
AVCON it trips that ICS-200 circuit in about 1 minute: turning
off power to the Zivan. You can reset the AVCON charging head,
but that configuration with just trip again.
A clumsy work around is to put a 100 ft 16 guage extension cord
in the AC line. This cuts the output charging current in half by
reducing the AC current. But this dangerously over heats the
extension cord & plug and it also does not always work. A better
solution is to turn the charger's output current down but getting
only 6 amps into my pack vs 36 amps into my pack using a PFC-30
charger does not makes sense.
Getting the right charger for the job, does make sense. I
recommend you consider using a PFC charger. The cost to correct
the NG3's power factor would be more than buying a PFC charger.
The 3kW NG3 220VAC model specs can be seen at
http://www.zivanusa.com/pdf/NG3.pdf
PFC 30 specs can be seen at
http://manzanitamicro.com/pfc20and30.htm
Delta-Q specs can be seen at
http://www.delta-q.com/documents/QuiQ-data-sheet.pdf
Most of the public AVCON charging units are an EVII ICS-200
http://www.bowzerbird.com/eviweb/
This AVCON charging head is installed when using Air Quality
Management District funds or by Utilities that do not know any
better. Because of this, most public EV charging locations in
California use this 'wrong AVCON charging head unit' (what good
is a EV charging location that few can use?!?).
Some EAA members have worked with some of the public EV charging
installations / repairs in the S.F. area. AVCON charging heads
other than the ICS-200 have been installed, or when a ICS-200
dies, replacement with a non-ICS-200 AVCON unit is less costly.
The AVCON Power Pak (APP)
http://www.avconev.com/artwork/avcon-flyer-01.pdf
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/avconpowerpack.html
and the EVII DS-50
http://www.bowzerbird.com/eviweb/products2.html#ds50
AVCON charging head units do not have the peak-current circuit
board that the ICS-200 unit has. I have tested them and found the
DS-50 and APP work fine with non-PFC chargers (they do not
trip/turn off like the ICS-200 units).
Examples:
A public EV charging location in Palo Alto, CA
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94301_1.htm
has an EVII DS-50 AVCON charging unit.
A public EV charging location in Santa Cruz, CA
http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/95060_1.htm
uses AVCON Power Pak AVCON charging head units.
If you get the chance, please work with any future public EV
charging installaions or repairs to use a non-ICS-200 AVCON
charging head.
I also recommend that a 5-20 110VAC 20amp outlet be placed at
the location. This will allow older EV conversions, and nEVs
to charge. The more the public EV charging locations are seen
used the better.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much for a 48v 10AH Li-Ion pack?
--
Martin K
On 2/23/07, Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have the capability of building battery packs from 3.6v to 1500v there
is
no limit. Depending on the customers specification and used battery price
will vary. If anyone is interested in a Li-Ion system let me know of the
general use desired voltage and A/h. These packs have electronically
controlled limits as far as Voltage high/low Temperature cutoff high/low
Amperage draw limit ect. I do freelance work for a company Emerging Power.
I
don't represent a large company however i have a wealth of knowledge for
high volume production of intrinsically safe li-ion batteries. I would
like
to add there is only one lithium battery system in production that has
been
deemed intrinsically safe by FM Global and I was one of the engineers who
worked on it the other is a good friend of mine who was an electrical
engineer for Curtis Instruments.
_________________________________________________________________
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
fast as 1 year
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--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Attn: Charles Whalen
Did you take delivery of the Vectrix that you had on order? If so what can
you share with us about this machine? Did it measure up to the promises in
terms of range, top speed, build quality, etc.?
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC) - Colorado Chapter of the EAA
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How much for a 48v 10AH Li-Ion pack?
> Martin K
Or, to be a bit more specific, how `bout 48v 10Ah LiFePO4 pack, with
charger and BMS, like this (down the page):
http://www.powerstream.com/LLL.htm
Thanks Patrick, and welcome aboard the EVDL
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
> On 2/23/07, Patrick Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I have the capability of building battery packs from 3.6v to 1500v
> there
> > is
> > no limit. Depending on the customers specification and used battery
> price
> > will vary. If anyone is interested in a Li-Ion system let me know
> of the
> > general use desired voltage and A/h. These packs have
> electronically
> > controlled limits as far as Voltage high/low Temperature cutoff
> high/low
> > Amperage draw limit ect. I do freelance work for a company Emerging
> Power.
> > I
> > don't represent a large company however i have a wealth of
> knowledge for
> > high volume production of intrinsically safe li-ion batteries. I
> would
> > like
> > to add there is only one lithium battery system in production that
> has
> > been
> > deemed intrinsically safe by FM Global and I was one of the
> engineers who
> > worked on it the other is a good friend of mine who was an
> electrical
> > engineer for Curtis Instruments.
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry the title is stupid but i wanted to keep with my theme so you knew it
was me. Im not out to get rich im here like everyone else trying to get
information i need and help anyone else in need i wasn't expecting as many
replies as i have gotten. I and like one of the posters said im throwing
meat into a cage full of lions. I would like to help everyone that i can.
what i will do is put together a set of documents that will show everyone my
method of assembly. If you are not aware of Vecture Inc. located in canada
then they are a great source of PCB and chargers. Anything is possible with
Li-Ion. And yes prices are very high however i work independently for a
company named Emerging Power based in Korea and im able to get cells for an
extremely low price. Im going to get some information for you animals out
there. Im new to the EV scene and I would like to know about the drive
train used in the vehicles motor transmission so on. Ill get back to
everyone who replies to my post. or feel free to email me directly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have to chime in that a tractor trailer is getting ridiculous.
If you want a solar powered car, there are 3 options.
1) Get UPenn's Solar car... LET'S BE PRACTICAL!
Solar racers aren't about being practical. They are to explore the
limits of possibility.
2) The Best solar car I've ever seen is this
http://www.autoauditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2005/photos_015.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/838
15 miles a day in good sun, but if there is no sun, you still have
a 60 mile range, you just have to pay for it. But still, at $5,000
I think the payback time is approximately 25 years.
This is a great example of what is possible with very simple,
straightforward technology. The fact that the solar range is almost good
enough for the average American's daily commute, and that there *is* a
payback says there is hope.
3) Get free used solar panels from a friend who is in the business
and install them in place of a bed cover. 3-5 miles on the best
days of sun. It's a statement, but hardly life changing.
That is a more timid approach than the Solar Black Bear EV in #2. If it
was shy of our goal of a solar commuter, then #3 will be worse yet.
In conclusion, Electric cars drive around on batteries, not solar power.
How you charge them for 3-6 hours is where you save the planet or your
wallet. Spend money on an efficient charger first before solar panels.
Why pay $5,000 for solar but build an inefficient badboy?
Sometimes, it's not all about money. Great new ideas often start out as
more expensive than bad old ideas.
Bad Boy chargers are not inefficient from an energy standpoint. Their
efficiency is around 90%, which is often better than more complex
chargers. The Bad Boy's problems are in other areas; poor charge
control, easy to damage batteries, less charging power from a given AC
source, etc.
There is a 4th option to consider: Using the Solar Black Bear as a
starting point, what could be done to improve it?
4) Start with a minivan with a pop-top as used for camping. Replace
the pop-top with a large solar panel. Allow it to raise and tilt
when parked to maximize solar power. But when flat, the aerodynamics
are as good as the base vehicle; better than the Solar Black Bear.
The minivan itself can be lighter and more aerodynamic that a
pickup truck. This increases range with the same size PV panels.
With a smaller, lighter, more efficient base vehicle, less motor,
controller, and batteries are needed, to reduce the overall cost.
These discussions are like firing test shots around the target to figure
out where it is. The solar racers are too small/light; the Solar Black
bear is too big/heavy. So aim your next shot somewhere between them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/forecast_liion_.html
Forecast: Li-Ion Batteries to Have <5% Share of Hybrid Market
by 2009. 7 February 2007
Cathode selection. While LiNiCoAlO2 is the most proven cathode
material, it is also the most thermally unstable at high states
of charge. LiNoCoMnO2 is gaining momentum, but there is not much
durability data yet. The newer LiMn2O4 materials are better,
according to Anderman, but the issue of life at elevated
temperatures has not been solved. LiFePO4 materials are the most
thermally stable, yet deliver lower voltage and lower energy.
Cost and life are not clear yet.
A good recent example of this is the partnership between cell
developer A123 Systems and pack developers Cobasys that is now
supplying li-ion packs to GM for use in the Saturn VUE plug in
work. (Earlier post.)
Anderman projects that some 783,000 hybrid vehicles will be sold
in 2009, with more than 95% of those using NiMH battery
systems—leaving about 38,000 units for lithium-ion.
This is a good summary of the situation.
Does anyone have a chart summarizing which cathode materials the various
lithium batteries are using? That might help sort out their real
capabilities versus the marketing claims.
Note that Cobasys, which holds the nimh patents with Chevron, is
supplying *lithium* batteries to the automakers, even though it is
expected that 95% of hybrids will use nimh. That strikes me as *very*
strange!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
What is the difference in charge algorithms that the Trojan
and US Battery require?
Mark Brueggemann wrote:
The conclusion I came to is you have to overcharge the hell out
of them compared to the Trojan's
US Battery recommends a higher final voltage, and more equalizing than
most other battery manufacturers. I don't know if their batteries are
built differently to require this; or whether it is just their opinion.
In my experience, how hard you should charge depends on how you use your
batteries. If you deeply discharge them every day, they will have a
shorter cycle life; in this case, you can charge them harder (because
they won't die from overcharging abuse). If you use them very gently,
with shallow discharges and long idle periods, then their calendar life
is more important; in this case you want to charge less aggressively or
they will die from overcharging problems.
It may be that US Battery is assuming their customers follow the "heavy
use" model, so they recommend harder charging regimens.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dube wrote:
Actually, if you proportion the length of the 2 amp finish charge
with the duration of the bulk charge, it works perfectly. This is
what Zivan does normally.
Sometimes this works. It depends on how high the bulk current is in
proportion to the battery capacity.
You should overcharge about 7%.
Good advice in general, though the actual percentage varies a bit
between batteries. Lower for gels, higher for floodeds. It also
increases as the batteries age.
You can prevent the batteries from losing any water, _OR_ you
can prevent them from sulfating the negative plate (and losing
capacity quickly.) You must choose.
It's not quite that black-and-white. There is a happy medium that
minimizes both sulfation and water use. This provides the longest life.
If you could minimize both at once, the batteries might last forever.
The challenge is to find this point.
You can't overcharge just "once per month". If you do, you will
build up sulfation on each cycle that will be impossible to remove.
You will remove only a portion of it on the monthly overcharge.
Capacity will decline every month. Early death by sulfation will
be the result. You will have plenty of water, though. :-)
Bill, all I can say is that if done in moderation, it seems to work. I
have had floodeds, gels, and AGMs lasted 5-10 years by purposely not
charging as hard as the manufacturers recommended. I'd recharge to
100-105% promptly after use, but only go past this to >110% (an
equalizing charge) as needed to keep them balanced. This would be 1-4
times a month for new batteries, up to 10-30 times a month as they get
old and approach end of life.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Just look at controllers, a contactor controller
puts out more power at 1/10th the cost, can be
very smooth, reliable, easily repairable in
minutes beside the road if necessary...
Randy Burleson wrote:
Tell me more about "very smooth" -- how so?
(really wanting to believe, but intuitively doubting)
"Very smooth" for a contactor controller means the steps are small
enough so you don't notice them; this typically requires 3 or more steps
if you have a transmission, 8 or more if it is transmissionsless.
Or, you can use a contactor controller with a sepex or shunt motor, and
control the field with a rheostat. This gives stepless control just like
a PWM controller.
Or, you can use a contactor controller with a continuously variable
transmission, with the transmission providing the smooth speed control.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JS wrote:
My NG3 charges 16 T105 PbA batteries. Nominal 96 volts.
About half the AVCON chargers I have tried will shut off after
about 30 seconds to 3 minutes. Some give a full charge. All
chargers are the same ICS-200 B.
Is this a power factor problem? (The Zivan power factor is rated
as .68)
Yes. The variations are due to natural differences in the AC line
voltage at each location, and the actual trip point of the circuit breaker.
Is it possible to correct the power factor externally?
Yes. There are AC-to-AC power factor correctors. Basically, it's a big
LC filter in a box. For example, I have one from HC Power Inc, model
PMAX-4911, 115/230vac, 1500w, weighs 12 lbs.
Sometimes they include an isolation transformer. The most common example
are the Sola constant voltage transformers. Here are some examples:
http://www.surplussales.com/PowerSupplies/PowerS-1.html
The isolated ones are bigger and heavier, of course. You don't need the
isolation with the Zivan, but it would be good for non-isolated chargers
that have the same problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Michael Perry wrote:
When I first started monitoring the EV lists, the Optima was one of the
favorite batteries for smaller rigs with less than 1 hour of cruise
range, especially in the smaller (under 1000 lb) vehicle. If I recall,
Lee was one of the fans of this batt. If I also recall, this battery
performs well in a variety of high load situations, such as 1/4 mile
cars?
You may be thinking of John Wayland; he was an early proponent of the
Optimas. I got interested in them several years later.
The Optima is a good choice for very high peak power delivery (such as
sports cars or drag racing). But, they are relatively expensive and have
a low cycle life -- that makes their cost per mile very high.
I am considering a new rig that's 1/2 the weight of my 1000 pound
Freeway... 72V pack... 25 miles @ my 25-40 MPH commute. The roller
chassis is about 350 pounds.
Wow; that's a very light vehicle. 72v worth of Optimas is 270 lbs,
giving you a 44% battery weight in a 350 lbs vehicle. Care to tell us more?
If you drive 25 miles at 40 mph, you're discharging the batteries in
just over half an hour. That makes Optimas (or Hawkers or Orbitals) a
good choice.
Does anyone have any experience w/ the Optima look-alike batts?
They are about 60% of the cost of the Optima, but cost isn't
everything.
From anecdotal comments made on the EV list, Optimas seem to have
declined a bit in quality since they were bought out by Johnson
Controls. The Exide Orbitals seem to be better. Hawkers also has some
very good alternatives.
It appears the blue or yellow tops are the way to go. Are there
differences and, if so, which is "better" for an EV?
Not really. Same battery with different case and terminal options.
These are all AGMs. Plan on a better charger and some form of battery
management or they won't last long!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Frank John wrote:
I'm wondering about the use of 6V AGM's in a pickup conversion project (instead
of flooded PbA's). Does anyone have any thoughts, experience, etc.? Anyone
built a regulator? I know that they're typically rated a bit less (C/20) but
real life may be different?
I haven't heard yet of anyone using them, but their specs look good
enough to be worth a try. The 20-hour rate is largely irrelevant for
EVs. Their 1-hour rates seem as good or better than floodeds, so they
have a good chance of working.
You'll need regulators and a better charger, of course.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Now think about a single speed reduction similar to that
> of an e-scooter. Large gear on the wheel, small one on
> the motor, chain/belt connecting the two. Why not apply
> that to a car?
<snip>
> The result would be similar to having lightweight hub
> motors, but without the extra weight in the wheel.
I worry about squat/anti-squat on acceleration, and suspension forces
wearing on the motor.
I'm sketching a setup for a 3-wheeler that seems a better compromise --
mount the motor to the swing-arm directly. Sprung weight has some
disadvantages, but if you mount the motor closer to the pivot, effective
leverage minimizes this impact. The more common alternative seems to be
mounting the motor unsprung and chain/belt-drive to the wheel, but if
you do that, suspension movement is applied directly to chain/belt slack
or the motor itself.
Are there any obvious flaws to this that those who have gone before can
identify?
Decoupling power transmission from the main chassis should assist in
minimizing weight elsewhere, and running cables is simple enough. Take
this to the full extreme, and you could wind up with a spring seat, as
in a semi, with full hard-tail suspension!
I guess I'd rather have suspension, to prevent rattling the fillings out
of my EV grin. :p
Randii
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--- Begin Message ---
Is there a problem with 'slow charging' on floddies?
I bought a 48volt/10amp charger made for lead acid floddies and plan
on using it to charge my first pack (the one you all say it will
be murdered :)
Is is too little current for a 6 volt trojan pack?
I dont have a problem with the time. I have where to plug in
at home and at work so I will get 20 hours a day of plugged in time.
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
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--- Begin Message ---
Several of the Chinese mini buggies use a swing-arm rear suspension like an ATV, with concentric sprockets so that there
is no change at all in chain tension. In fact big sand buggies often use dual swing-arms set up like this. As for the
squat characteristics, I wouldn't worry much in a three wheeler where weight transfer is not so critical as a bike, but
perhaps I misunderstood your design?
I wouldn't want drivetrain parts vibrating with the suspension, nor would I want to deal with the effect of adding
unsprung weight. but thats just me.
HTH
John Fisher
Randy Burleson wrote:
I'm sketching a setup for a 3-wheeler that seems a better compromise --
mount the motor to the swing-arm directly. Sprung weight has some
disadvantages, but if you mount the motor closer to the pivot, effective
leverage minimizes this impact. The more common alternative seems to be
mounting the motor unsprung and chain/belt-drive to the wheel, but if
you do that, suspension movement is applied directly to chain/belt slack
or the motor itself.
Are there any obvious flaws to this that those who have gone before can
identify?
Randii
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