EV Digest 6467
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Swamp Buggy Races Next Weekend
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Optima Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Excellence in jounalism
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Regenerative suspension
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zivan NG3
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Slow charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Zilla wiring question
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Optima batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: all EV drag race in San Diego
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla wiring question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Excellence in jounalism
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Excellence in jounalism
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: contactor controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: FW: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Fully sprung 'direct drive' (was: Regenerative suspension)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: contactor controllers (was RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker
Shock)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Contactor Controller
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Excellence in jounalism
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: contactor controllers (was RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Anyone need juice 2
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Li-Ion Juice Maker
by "brougham Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is sort of, maybe really off topic but enjoying all types of
racing I couldn't help it. My new favorite motorsport is Swamp Buggy.
My first and only visit to date was the day after Battery Beach in
January. They are racing again this weekend in Naples, Fl. I gave up
trying to make NASCAR fun anymore and skipped Daytona so I could make
this trip. $60 gets you race tickets for both days, a ticket to the
Saturday night dance, all the food, (Including an awesome BBQ Buffet)
and beer you can consume, VIP seating, Private restrooms, a private
guided tour of the pits with question and answer with the drivers, Just
wanted to let the folks know if you want to see how race fans should be
treated, make a trip to Naples sometime. We discussed electric drag
racing, and the potential for an electric swamp buggy with the track
officials for some time after the races. They absolutely loved the OJ
dragster and AGNS drag bike. They took turns racing AGNS across the
coral/shell parking lot, OUCH!
Wonder what would happen if 300 -400 volts hit the sippy hole. It
might make for a jolting experience.
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>This is a very interesting statement. Can you provide any examples
>where this has happened?
Yes,
For an image of the shorted cell, go to
http://www.smartev.us/batt.JPG
Test pack (10 D31s) under 50-100 amp load. Since D31 self shorted (pack lost
power). The pack (6 /10 batteries) were together. After a few minutes of
diagnosis the other areas, The pack area smoked and was too hot to access, and
yes, flames started coming from the area.
The short melted all six batteries (the plastic), Once the heat slowed down
enough to access the batteries, flames were still visible. The other five
batteries still worked (although completely destroyed).
The entire group was the same series, and had been properly broken in, charged
and tested through 50+ cycles before the single battery self destructed.
Contact me offline if you want more details/information.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17152229/
"The hybrid car that Bush inspected had a high-power
lithium-ion battery made by A123 Systems of Watertown,
Mass. It can power the car for about 40 miles and
recharge in five hours. The white truck, made by
Phoenix Motorcars Inc. of Ontario, Calif., has a range
of 130 miles and can be recharged in about 10 minutes
with a rapid-charging unit or trickle-charged
overnight with its onboard charger."
1) They call it a 'hybrid car' - it's and EV
2) 'it can power the car for about 40 miles'
and will recharge in 5 hours.
3) and in the next sentence, 'has a range of 130
miles'
and can be rapid charged in 10 minutes.
For the average person this would be very confusing.
Why even write an article with so many inaccuracies.
Oh, that's the norm for the main-stream-media.
I'm surprised they didn't mention Anna Nicole in this
article :-).
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
Bose have made regen linear suspension already.
http://tinyurl.com/2ae2nl
It perhaps isn't what was being talked about inasmuch as it requires
a power input to make it work but it's cool.
Think about it. All the energy to move the car comes from the batteries.
So, any power you extract from the suspension must have come from the
batteries, too. Therefore, perfect regenerative suspension can't get
more energy back than driving on smooth roads.
How much worse is EV range (or ICE gas mileage) when driving on bumpy
roads? To a first approximation, I don't notice any difference. That
implies there isn't much energy there to recover.
Another hint is that inefficient things get hot. Shock absorbers don't
get hot, except under highly unusual conditions. This again says there
isn't much energy to recover.
It would appear that active suspension systems are being studied to
improve ride and handling; not to improve efficiency.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Brueggemann wrote:
I would like to know more. What can you change on an S-10
that isn't batteries, motor or frame that can make a
substantial enough difference to actually extend range, and
still be a pickup?
Most of the big changes need to be made early. The vehicle needs to be
designed as an EV to have really good performance as an EV. Conversions
already have two strikes against them.
However, there are still lots of small changes that can be made. All put
together, they can still help a lot!
To start with, how much force does it take to push your truck on flat
level pavement? 1% of its weight is good; i.e. it should take 30 lbs to
push a 3000 lbs vehicle.
Most vehicles are considerably higher than this, for a number of
reasons. They have soft tires, misaligned suspension, dragging brakes,
heavy oil in the transmission and differential, worn wheel bearings,
etc. Correcting these problems gives you extra range.
Next, after a drive, what gets hot? Any hot battery terminals or cables?
How about the motor or controller? You can improve them, too.
What about dead weight? Is there "junk" that you carry around in the
truck for no particular reason except that you always do? Are there
parts left over from its ICE days? If you have AAA, maybe you don't need
to carry a spare tire and jack. Does it still have a huge old 12v
accessory battery? If there's a DC/DC, a much smaller lighter 12v
battery makes sense.
Do you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, or are there lots of hills? Then
adding regenerative braking could be worthwhile.
All this is pretty basic stuff. We haven't even started on structural
mods like plugging the grille, fiberglass body parts, or aerodynamic mods!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I should plug in those numbers into my simulation package.
Bill D.
At 08:16 AM 2/24/2007, you wrote:
What motorcycle? ;)
> I had trouble seeing the motorcycle itself, not just the batteries.
> That is one EV that people will stand up and notice!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 2:31 AM
> Subject: FW: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
>
> My buddy found this today.
> Someone tell me its actually an electric bike.
> I can't quite make out the batteries.
>
> From: Shawn Fitzpatrick
> Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 4:37 PM
> To: Mike Willmon
> Subject: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
>
>
> http://community.webshots.com/album/96409308RfIrlb
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
> across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bruce parmenter wrote:
In short, yes it is a power factor issue that Zivan charger,
and/or it is also an AVCON ICS-200 charging head design
limitation.
No Zivan charger will work with the EVII ICS-200 AVCON model
because that AVCON charging head unit has an internal circuit
board that monitors peak AC current. If that circuit board sees a
high peak AC current (like from an EV conversion's charger), it
will trip and turn off AC power to the AVCON handle. Only high
power factor correction (PFC) chargers ( <90% ) will not trip
that peak current circuit.
Using a lower-current charger also works. That's why turning down the
output current on the Zivan charger works.
A clumsy work around is to put a 100 ft 16 guage extension cord
in the AC line. This cuts the output charging current in half by
reducing the AC current. But this dangerously over heats the
extension cord & plug and it also does not always work.
As you say, a resistor (which is what the extension cord is) is not a
very effective way to reduce the current. It converts the excess power
into heat!
A much simpler way would be to add an inductor in series with the AC
line. The inductor reduces the peak current and spreads it out in time.
For 2.5kw at 240vac, you only need about 1 millihenry, which is a couple
dozen turns on a fist-sized core.
You can further improve the power factor by also adding an AC-rated
capacitor across the line. It compensates for the inductance being added
by the inductor. The value is best determined experimentally; pick the
capacitor that results in the lowest AC RMS current. For 2.5kw at
240vac, it will probably be in the 10-50uF range.
Finally, adding a resistor (extension cords, etc.) to the *output* of
the charger may be a quick-and-dirty expedient. Since the current there
is closer to DC, it has less peak current, and the cord won't get as hot
for a given amount of AC peak current reduction.
A better solution is to turn the charger's output current down but
getting only 6 amps into my pack vs 36 amps into my pack using a
PFC-30 charger does not makes sense.
Well, 6 amps with a charger you've got is better than nothing.
The cost to correct the NG3's power factor would be more than
buying a PFC charger.
It's not that bad. The PFC20 is $1550. The crude LC filter method will
cost less than $100. The HC Power PMAX 1.5kw power factor corrector I
bought was only $220 new, and they have models for other power levels.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Is there a problem with 'slow charging' on floddies?
Generally, no. "Too slow" would be a current under 1% of its amphour
rating (like charging a 100ah battery at 1 amp), because it will never
reach "full".
Gel cells can reach "full" will less current; perhaps 0.2% of their
amphour capacity.
AGMs seem to do better with a high initial charging current (Hawkers in
particular), but will still reach "full" with 1% or less current.
Note that as the batteries get old, they will require more and more
current to reach "full". What works when they are new won't work when
they are old.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Zilla manual recommends connecting the hairball to the check
engine and battery indicator warning lamps on the original instrument
panel.
So long as I remember what the meaning is I can make the connection
to any of the warning lamps I choose correct?
(another one of those stupid question I come up with that I spend way
too much time worrying about)
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> occassionally, the spirals will short out, causing the
> batteries to internally heat up and catch your vehicle on
> fire .... :-(
Lead acid batteries don't burn. There is nothing combustible in them.
The polypropylene case is the only part that could burn, and it won't
support combustion by itself (though it would be destroyed in a fire
caused by something else).
A battery can release small amounts of hydrogen during charging; enough
to get a small fire or burst the case if something ignites it. But it's
hard to light anything else on fire with hydrogen.
A shorted battery can overheat to the point that it boils the
electrolyte, producing steam that can burst the case. Very hot and
messy! But it's not a fire.
A battery can also supply enough current to overheat or melt wiring,
connectors, or other parts. These parts can get red-hot and start fires!
But the battery is just supplying the energy; it does not contribute to
the fire itself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill
thanks for the advice but it looks like the response
is so low it wouldn't be worth it anyway
keith
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Having hosted more than one EV drag racing event,
> the smartest way to
> do it is to tag on to an existing ICE event. Talk
> with the track
> officials and figure out dates and events that would
> work. Jr
> Dragster events are usually not that crowded. There
> are other events
> like test-and tunes, High school drags, and
> sometimes car shows that
> you can team up with. When you do this, you do not
> have to provide
> any money or "rent" the track. All you have to do is
> announce the
> event and promote it. You want to make sure that the
> track will not
> be too crowded so that the EVs will get to run at
> least 4 times each.
>
> I would strongly suggest that you get in
> contact with the
> NEDRA board to help pick a good date. They know
> about the proposed
> race schedule so that you won't hold your race on
> the same day that
> another West coast race is being held.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> At 04:55 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote:
> >hi all,
> >I have been going to various drag strips to watch
> EVs
> >race for the last few years. I am always
> dissapionted
> >at the number of runs and vehicles. Woodburn is
> >pretty good but there is still the competition of
> the
> >jr fuel dragsters. There is a small strip that is
> >seldom used not far from where I live and I think
> we
> >could rent it for an EV only event if there was
> enough
> >interest. I was thinking around earth day, April
> 22,
> >as we have the biggest E-Day celebration in the
> world
> >in San Diego. We always have many EVs and other
> >alternative vehicles at the E-day celebration. If
> >there is interest I could check to see how much it
> >would cost to rent the strip and timing equipment.
> >Right now various organizations rent it for stakes
> >raceing. There is camping and hotel facilities
> close
> >by and we might be able to get a deal if we had
> enough
> >turn out.
> >If this is too far off topic e-mail me off list
> >keith
> >
> >
> >
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
> >Don't pick lemons.
> >See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> >http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
Engine and battery warning lights should be rated for 12 volts. I use a
pair of 12 volt Green LEDS for this.
When you turn on the ignition switch to the on position the battery light
should light up showing you have 12 volt battery power to the Hairball.
Then when you turn to the start position the engine light will light showing
that the pre charging circuit is working.
While you still hold in the start position both check lights will still be
on. In the start position you should hear the main contactor come on. When
you release the ignition switch back to the ignition position both lights
should go off.
If any one of the lights do not come on during the on-start cycle or go off
go back to the ignition or off. Then you have a controller error, which
then you would check the LED status on the Hairball and then finally on the
Palm controller.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Zilla wiring question
> My Zilla manual recommends connecting the hairball to the check
> engine and battery indicator warning lamps on the original instrument
> panel.
>
> So long as I remember what the meaning is I can make the connection
> to any of the warning lamps I choose correct?
>
> (another one of those stupid question I come up with that I spend way
> too much time worrying about)
>
> John
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All about marketing, perception and our drive for wanting the "silver
bullet":
- EV is old tech, boring, was crushed a number of years ago.
- Hybrid is today, the present the tangible state of the art.
- Hydrogen Fuel Cell is the holy grail, the answer to all our problems.
Ask yourself: Do you get enthusiastic - even just a little bit - when you
hear a new lightweight, high capacity battery has been announced? The media
and marketers really leverage this bit of optimism in all of us. The
difference is that we have more technical know-how and more experience to
attenuate the optimism with a dose of reality.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: February 24, 2007 7:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Excellence in jounalism
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17152229/
"The hybrid car that Bush inspected had a high-power lithium-ion battery
made by A123 Systems of Watertown, Mass. It can power the car for about 40
miles and recharge in five hours. The white truck, made by Phoenix Motorcars
Inc. of Ontario, Calif., has a range of 130 miles and can be recharged in
about 10 minutes with a rapid-charging unit or trickle-charged overnight
with its onboard charger."
1) They call it a 'hybrid car' - it's and EV
2) 'it can power the car for about 40 miles'
and will recharge in 5 hours.
3) and in the next sentence, 'has a range of 130 miles'
and can be rapid charged in 10 minutes.
For the average person this would be very confusing.
Why even write an article with so many inaccuracies.
Oh, that's the norm for the main-stream-media.
I'm surprised they didn't mention Anna Nicole in this article :-).
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may not be great writing but it's pretty obvious
that they are talking about 2 different vehicles, a
hybrid car and an EV truck.
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17152229/
>
> "The hybrid car that Bush inspected had a high-power
> lithium-ion battery made by A123 Systems of
> Watertown,
> Mass. It can power the car for about 40 miles and
> recharge in five hours. The white truck, made by
> Phoenix Motorcars Inc. of Ontario, Calif., has a
> range
> of 130 miles and can be recharged in about 10
> minutes
> with a rapid-charging unit or trickle-charged
> overnight with its onboard charger."
>
> 1) They call it a 'hybrid car' - it's and EV
> 2) 'it can power the car for about 40 miles'
> and will recharge in 5 hours.
> 3) and in the next sentence, 'has a range of 130
> miles'
> and can be rapid charged in 10 minutes.
> For the average person this would be very confusing.
> Why even write an article with so many inaccuracies.
> Oh, that's the norm for the main-stream-media.
> I'm surprised they didn't mention Anna Nicole in
> this
> article :-).
> Rod
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
that is SO COOL! I've thought of narrowing a stock vehicle and
dismissed it too much work for little gain, but this bug really looks
good narrowed. No reason to make it 3-wheel though, could just as much
make it 4-wheel.
Jack
jmygann wrote:
How would I mount a single rear wheel into the back of a VW ? could
I use the original torsion bars somehow ??
Like this but 2 passenger .... no cutting
http://www.digitalbiker.com/bugwing.htm
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Now think about a single speed reduction similar to that
of an e-scooter. Large gear on the wheel, small one on
the motor, chain/belt connecting the two. Why not apply
that to a car?
<snip>
The result would be similar to having lightweight hub
motors, but without the extra weight in the wheel.
I worry about squat/anti-squat on acceleration, and suspension
forces
wearing on the motor.
I'm sketching a setup for a 3-wheeler that seems a better
compromise --
mount the motor to the swing-arm directly. Sprung weight has some
disadvantages, but if you mount the motor closer to the pivot,
effective
leverage minimizes this impact. The more common alternative seems
to be
mounting the motor unsprung and chain/belt-drive to the wheel, but
if
you do that, suspension movement is applied directly to chain/belt
slack
or the motor itself.
Are there any obvious flaws to this that those who have gone
before can
identify?
Decoupling power transmission from the main chassis should assist
in
minimizing weight elsewhere, and running cables is simple enough.
Take
this to the full extreme, and you could wind up with a spring
seat, as
in a semi, with full hard-tail suspension!
I guess I'd rather have suspension, to prevent rattling the
fillings out
of my EV grin. :p
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Ward wrote:
first of all what a delight it was to read about Jerry Dycus' Ewoody.
More power to Jerry. If everyone had Jerry's philosopohy, the roads would
be much safer, and the air cleaner.
Yes, I enthusiastically agree! His vehicles are wonderful examples of
doing more with less.
"would I transport my children in it?", the answer is "no". Maybe
with some testing, Jerry can convince us. Good luck Jerry.
You have to build it first, *then* do the testing. He's doing that now.
And, safety tends to be relative. His Ewoody and Freedom are probably
safer than a motorcycle or NEV, but less safe than a car.
secondly can anybody recommend parts (and source of) for a contact
controller for the following voltage steps
48v + startup resistor
48V
84V
168V
216V
These are funny voltages. The steps in a contactor controller are
usually even multiples, like 48v/96v/192v, because it is wiring the
batteries in series/parallel groups. That way all of them are used and
have the same current in every step.
Below 48vdc, a simple relay with a single contact is sufficient because
arcing is minimal. Up to 96vdc, they go to a true contactor, with two
contacts in series (two fixed contacts, and a movable shorting bar that
connects them). Up to 200vdc, they stay with 2 contacts in series but
add magnetic blowouts; or put 4 contacts in series (like a
series/parallel or reversing contactor).
The Kilovac contactors put the contacts in a sealed enclosure with
sulfur hexafluoride instead of air inside. This lets them switch up to
300vdc. These are nice parts; compact and efficient. The other high
voltage contactors you'll find are large, crude, older designs intended
for elevators, cranes, railroad, other industrial switchgear (OK
surplus, but you wouldn't like the new price)!
Look closely at your contactor circuit. You'll find that most of them
never see full voltage or current, and can be rated accordingly. It is
possible to arrange a 48v/96v/192v contactor controller circuit so *no*
contactor ever sees more than 48v.
The contactors should be switchable via a chip such as atmel AVR i.e.
atemga128 http://docwiki.gumstix.org/Robostix
Not directly; contactor coils take 10 watts or more. But it is no
problem to use a relay driver circuit.
Also a rheostat suitable for controlling a 120V 10A field of a sepex
motor.
Does the field really need 120v at 10 amps? That's 1.2kw. The field
power is usually around 1% of the motor power, so that means you have a
120kw motor?
Anyway, if you have a 120v field supply, the worst-case power
dissipation in the rheostat occurs at half power; 60v 5a = 300 watts. A
300 watt rheostat is about 6" in diameter and a couple inches thick. For
example see Ohmite model N, type RNS at
http://www.ohmite.com/cgi-bin/showpage.cgi?product=rheostats_wirewound
The control of field and armature voltage I envisage for a sepex
contactor controller is something like below (to accelerate to max
speed).
Usually, the operator will decide how much motor power he wants, and
control the steps manually. You don't need to check motor current.
Lastly
My motor is currently run at a maximum of 168V nominal on the armature
with the field at 1.2A (6000RPM). As far as I can tell from my limited
knowledge of motors the motor could be run at 216V nominal on the
armature with the field at a higher current and stay at the same RPM
and avoid arcing at the brushes. Is this correct?
Yes. There are a whole range of combinations of armature voltage and
field current that produce the same rpm.
Is there anything that might be over stressed by putting more voltage
across the armature.
Yes; but not with only 216v on a 168v motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I had trouble seeing the motorcycle itself, not just the batteries.
> That is one EV that people will stand up and notice!
This is Whispering Lightning, the Canadian 24V drag bike of Raymond
Knight's, driven by the lovely Heather Anderson:
<http://www.worldchat.com/~sva-sales/html/whispering_lightning_specs.htm
l>
This bike has been retired and Raymond was working on a 48V (if memory
serves) replacement, but I haven't heard anything on "Northern Thunder"
for a while.
The Whispering Lightning poster on my office wall certainly does attract
its share of attention, though I've been accused of displaying it for
the driver rather than the bike... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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There's a bike?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: February 24, 2007 10:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I had trouble seeing the motorcycle itself, not just the batteries.
> That is one EV that people will stand up and notice!
This is Whispering Lightning, the Canadian 24V drag bike of Raymond
Knight's, driven by the lovely Heather Anderson:
<http://www.worldchat.com/~sva-sales/html/whispering_lightning_specs.htm
l>
This bike has been retired and Raymond was working on a 48V (if memory
serves) replacement, but I haven't heard anything on "Northern Thunder"
for a while.
The Whispering Lightning poster on my office wall certainly does attract its
share of attention, though I've been accused of displaying it for the driver
rather than the bike... ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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Now... That IS a sight! ... just beautiful.. Thou looks quite simple.
But I think that just makes it even more beautiful.
batts seemed to be installed guite high place from ground. Where the gas
tank has been. Balance can't be good...
Optima Bluetops ?? In the picture 13/13...
-Jukka
Mike Willmon kirjoitti:
My buddy found this today.
Someone tell me its actually an electric bike.
I can't quite make out the batteries.
From: Shawn Fitzpatrick
Sent: Fri 2/23/2007 4:37 PM
To: Mike Willmon
Subject: I like this drag bike better than Killacycle
http://community.webshots.com/album/96409308RfIrlb
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John Fisher wrote:
> Randy Burleson wrote:
> >> * anti-squat upon acceleration (swing-arm pushes the tail
> >> end up) and
> >> * squat upon deceleration (swing-arm pulls the tail end down)
> But I am frequently befuddled so I'll look it up in Tony
> Foale's book. I may have the definition reversed....
Chain drive bikes *drop* their tail (slightly) under acceleration; shaft
drive bikes *raise* their tail under acceleration (except, when specific
measures are taken to avoid this, such as BMW's 'paralever' rear
suspension).
It is pretty straightforward to understand: on a chain drive bike, the
front sprocket is typically slightly higher off the ground than the
swingarm pivot and is higher than the rear sprocket, and when you
accelerate the chain spanning the top of the sprockets is placed under
tension. The chain tension tries to pull the sprockets together, and
the relative positions of the sprockets and swingarm pivot are such that
the swingarm must rotate upwards (tail drops) in order for this to
happen.
With a shaft drive bike, the tail rises under acceleration due to the
driveshaft/pinion gear trying to 'climb' the ring gear in the rear end.
Cheers,
Roger.
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Doing a bunch of parallel and serial connections sounds like a lot of
messy cables and interconnects. How about this idea, have resistors in
series with full voltage, and use the contactors to by-pass them.
So you startup with three resistors, then by-pass 1, then 2, then all 3.
basically a 4-step rheostat. This would put all of the controller into a
single box like a FET controller. I guess now you have to worry about
the heat from the resistors.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
From: Jack Murray
I've been thinking of giving this a try, I got in the new $64 kilovac
contactor, looks good, at that price you can use three or four of them,
and use the micro to turn them on/off. The question is how much noise
do they make, and how fast will they wear out using them this way?
Contactors built for EV service are usually rated for 100,000 operations at
rated load, and 1,000,000 operations at light load. This is many years of daily
driving.
They typically make a distinct "click" when they pull in, and "clunk" when they
drop out. You'll hear it if they are mounted in the open, or as something that acts as a sounding
board; but they're pretty quiet in an electrical box (and you shouldn't be leaving them out in the
open anyway, due to the shock hazard).
It will definitely require having a battery balancing charger because
the lower voltage bats in the pack are going to drain a lot more than
the higher voltage bats.
Contactor controllers normally wire the batteries in series and parallel
combinations, so you always have all of them carrying an equal part of the
load. This also means *less* battery management is needed (at least with
lead-acid), because when they are in parallel they automatically tend to
equalize the charge between them.
A typical setup might have eight 12v batteries, which can be wired as:
- 4 groups of 2 in series, for 24v
- 2 groups of 4 in series, for 48v
- all eight in series, for 96v
Such a controller would have 5 steps:
1. off
2. 24v with starting resistor in series (to start motor without a jerk)
3. 24v direct to motor
4. 48v to motor
5. 96v to motor
Such a controller has ten SPST contactors (though it is more common to use
three DPDT, and two SPST).
Note that you don't need expensive high-voltage contactors like the Kilovacs.
With the above setup, most of the contactors never see more than 24v, or more
than half the motor current; this allows the use of much cheaper golf cart
contactors.
--
Lee Hart
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Here are the links via Tinyurl. I have used the contactor/big diode
route with a starting resistor added. It can be very smooth. I did
one for a Datsun that had a bad SCR controller. It was an intown
driver that had two starting resistor points then 36V then 72V since
I was lazy about adding the third diode setup and was limited on
batteries. It was smooth as silk and ran very nicely with a four
speed transmission.
The contactors were under the hood, and clunked rather loudly, but as
Lee said, they should've been in a box for safety purposes.
I did the original prototype on a piece of wood in the rear of the
car since that is where I kept the batteries. It slid around while I
tested the system and threw off a lot a heat when starting, but I
never started a fire.LOL
http://tinyurl.com/38k96q
http://tinyurl.com/2watvw
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You may have missed the Headline of the article.
If Anne Nicole is married to Bryon Bliss then she did get mentioned ;-)
He did imply that the Electric truck was so simple to refuel that his wife
could do it - also showing how ordinary people already have the refueling
infrastructure in their homes (dryer outlet). Very smart to mention that in
an article for this public.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Excellence in jounalism
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17152229/
"The hybrid car that Bush inspected had a high-power lithium-ion battery
made by A123 Systems of Watertown, Mass. It can power the car for about 40
miles and recharge in five hours. The white truck, made by Phoenix Motorcars
Inc. of Ontario, Calif., has a range of 130 miles and can be recharged in
about 10 minutes with a rapid-charging unit or trickle-charged overnight
with its onboard charger."
1) They call it a 'hybrid car' - it's and EV
2) 'it can power the car for about 40 miles'
and will recharge in 5 hours.
3) and in the next sentence, 'has a range of 130 miles'
and can be rapid charged in 10 minutes.
For the average person this would be very confusing.
Why even write an article with so many inaccuracies.
Oh, that's the norm for the main-stream-media.
I'm surprised they didn't mention Anna Nicole in this article :-).
Rod
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And "voila!" you've just reinvented EV controllers of 100 years ago.
Very doable, mechanically, electromechanically or otherwise.
-Myles
> Doing a bunch of parallel and serial connections sounds like a lot of
> messy cables and interconnects. How about this idea, have resistors in
> series with full voltage, and use the contactors to by-pass them.
> So you startup with three resistors, then by-pass 1, then 2, then all 3.
> basically a 4-step rheostat. This would put all of the controller into a
> single box like a FET controller. I guess now you have to worry about
> the heat from the resistors.
> Jack
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > From: Jack Murray
> >
> >>I've been thinking of giving this a try, I got in the new $64 kilovac
> >>contactor, looks good, at that price you can use three or four of them,
> >>and use the micro to turn them on/off. The question is how much noise
> >>do they make, and how fast will they wear out using them this way?
> >
> >
> > Contactors built for EV service are usually rated for 100,000
> operations at rated load, and 1,000,000 operations at light load.
> This is many years of daily driving.
> >
> > They typically make a distinct "click" when they pull in, and
> "clunk" when they drop out. You'll hear it if they are mounted in
> the open, or as something that acts as a sounding board; but
> they're pretty quiet in an electrical box (and you shouldn't be
> leaving them out in the open anyway, due to the shock hazard).
> >
> >
> >>It will definitely require having a battery balancing charger because
> >>the lower voltage bats in the pack are going to drain a lot more than
> >>the higher voltage bats.
> >
> >
> > Contactor controllers normally wire the batteries in series and
> parallel combinations, so you always have all of them carrying an
> equal part of the load. This also means *less* battery management
> is needed (at least with lead-acid), because when they are in
> parallel they automatically tend to equalize the charge between them.
> >
> > A typical setup might have eight 12v batteries, which can be wired as:
> >
> > - 4 groups of 2 in series, for 24v
> > - 2 groups of 4 in series, for 48v
> > - all eight in series, for 96v
> >
> > Such a controller would have 5 steps:
> >
> > 1. off
> > 2. 24v with starting resistor in series (to start motor without a jerk)
> > 3. 24v direct to motor
> > 4. 48v to motor
> > 5. 96v to motor
> >
> > Such a controller has ten SPST contactors (though it is more
> common to use three DPDT, and two SPST).
> >
> > Note that you don't need expensive high-voltage contactors like
> the Kilovacs. With the above setup, most of the contactors never
> see more than 24v, or more than half the motor current; this
> allows the use of much cheaper golf cart contactors.
> > --
> > Lee Hart
> >
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone done business with PowerStream Technology? Would you recommend
them?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone need juice 2
> --- Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > How much for a 48v 10AH Li-Ion pack?
> > Martin K
>
> Or, to be a bit more specific, how `bout 48v 10Ah LiFePO4 pack, with
> charger and BMS, like this (down the page):
> http://www.powerstream.com/LLL.htm
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From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<snip good info on pack voltages>
> For example my truck (S10) has a 9,000 RPM redlined AC motor, powered by a
> 312V 110Ah battery pack via a 700V 250A capable 3-phase inverter.
> Using a manual gearbox locked in 2nd gear allows the truck to reach 72 mph
> at the 9000 rev limit.
> I use this truck for daily commute and errands and it is in weekly use for
> being a truck with a long bed.
That is the sort of system that I am looking at. Similar drive system,
similar speed and range. The glider I intend to use probably has a lower
drag coeficient (at 0.31). I was hoping to get away with a pack about half
that (Ah)size in Lithium Ion.
Are your details on http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/694 still current?
Is the 80 mile range accurate?
Is that for 50% DoD?
Bro
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