EV Digest 6481
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Blind EV's
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Of USBattery and Trojans
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: No Limp Guages in EV's
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Plasma Boy Gets a 50" Plasma ...'Video Only' Supports EV Drag Racing!
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Blind EV's
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Optima batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon available
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Of USBattery and Trojans
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Optima batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available
For Te...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: axles (was: RE: Speaking of Hybrids)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Questions on EV
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Questions on EV
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Questions on EV
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Tango lane splitting
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I got a little pump from Amatek (if I remember correctly) for my Kodiak
controller. Very quiet, and seems to do the job. I had tried several pumps
before that - they all failed quickly!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: Zilla for the newbie?
> Ya, I tried a Jabsco pump used for something on boats.
> A small one.
>
> Too noisy and broke the little plastic outlet port off.
> They say it's rated continuous, but it was not a good choice.
>
> Tried some other pumps too. Big thing is the noise.
> Same thing with vacuum pumps.
> You get a couple of noisy pumps under the hood and the car is much noiser
than a stock ICE car.
>
> Ended up with a great little 12 volt computer coolant pump that just began
showing up in computer stores.
> The speed is adjustable and it's simple.
> Been running great.
>
> I run the coolant through the old radiator overflow and a transmission oil
cooler that gets a little cool air now and then.
> I have never felt the coolant anymore than luke warm. Don't worry much
about it anymore.
> It stays primed with a head off the the tank through - I doubt the pump
would prime itself.
>
> Dana
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I have a 4000lb vehicle pushed by a warp 9 mated to the stock tranny. I
> > have experimented with a few cooling systems
> >
> > 1) I bought a jabsco water pump from the boat store. This provided a
> > good amount of water flow using the old radiator overflow tank and a
> > tranny cooler for a radiator.
> > It was noisy, pulled a lot of amps, and running it 40 min a day, 20 min
> > at a time, exceeded it's duty cycle and it started making even more
> > noise after a few monthes.
> >
> > 2) I got a swiftech MCP-350. Quiet, low current but very hard to keep
> > primed and I found that it wasn't enough cooling in the summer or on
> > very long trips. I repolaced it with a MCP 650. Much better but on a
> > 12 mile freeway drive it overheated and shut down a 1/2 block after a
> > stoplight. I don't have a fan on the radiator and I suspect when I
> > stopped moving it warmed up a little, then when I pulled the
> > acceleration amps it over heated.
> >
> > Will try a 120mm Fan this summer, maybe a bigger pump or a second
> > pump.(redundency and scalability)
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date: 2/24/2007
8:14 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree 150% with the Madman on this!!!!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
>
>
>
> >From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: Blind EV's
> >Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:18:56 -0800
> >
> >Man this pisses me off. We work like heck to have a silent powerfull
drive
> >train.. and then the safety NAZIS step in and complain that if a Blind
> >man... What a about Deaf???
> >
> >There is always somebody that fan find something wrong with what ever is
> >not normal.
> >
> >Clearly.. I won't be adding backup beepers or flashing lights just to
make
> >some group safer.
> >
> >All vehicles have horns and lights, USE them when you see somebody about
to
> >make a mistake. And Oh Yea that's what brakes are for!!!
> >
> >I have snuck up on many folks.. it's kinda fun. In the drag lanes nobody
> >steps un front of the lit off Gasser, But they just back up and walk into
a
> >EV with a LOT more torque on tap than the Guys using Explosions to move
> >thier Sled.
> >
> >NPR can find a problems with a nice Sunny Day in May.
> >
>
> Rich -
>
> NPR doesn't make the laws here in the US. They just report the news.
This
> was news.
>
> If you don't like a law ( or proposed law) write your congressman. Don't
> blame the messenger- or, complain to us.
>
>
> And, it had been refreshing not to hear about Nazis all the time since
Neon
> John dropped out of sight.
> If we could all refrain from name-calling, it would reduce the noise on
this
> loop.
>
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Refi Now: Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo -
Calculate
> new payment
>
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?sourceid=lmb-9632-17727&moid=7581
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date: 2/24/2007
8:14 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Numerous folks have inquired about the difference
between USB and Trojan batteries I referenced in
my recent EV Bashing posts, so I dug out the original
email exchange between Nawaz Qureshi and myself
to find out the specifics. I have trimmed the post
to the essential details:
First, the exchange before the purchase:
Nawaz wrote:
I used to work for Trojan for 11 years. While they are
good batteries, US are superior for using better alloy,
having extra electrolyte space on top, using heavier
assembly components (our equivalent batteries weigh
more) among many many other better features. In addition,
as the postings on this list indicate, we do our best to
help EV people.
...
Sounds good so far.
Now, fast forward about a year:
Mark B wrote:
Around 8 months of service I noticed a reduction in range
and after verifying my charge cycle could not explain it.
I was definitely getting less Ah's out of the batteries
than when new.
Around the 10 month point my range was reduced to just
over half of new. I began monitoring my charge profile on
almost every cycle and keeping a careful log of driving
distance and charging kWh's.
At the 12 month point my range is down to less than 16 miles,
less than half of new. An interesting trend I've noticed
at this point is if the vehicle is driven to the point it
can no longer maintain speed and left to sit for three hours,
static voltage and specific gravity measurements *both*
indicate an approximate 60% SOC. It's almost as though the
paste is isolated from the electrolye. I noted numerous
cells had dark electrolyte and knew then there was something
seriously wrong.
...my daily charge is a bulk charge at 28A to approximately 172V
(2.38VPC) then taper down to a cut off at 2A, which ends up
around 178V (2.47VPC). Every ten cycles or so I disable the
cutoff and do an equalize charge for 4 hours, where the voltage
climbs to 182V (2.53VPC) and about 2A. Water usage appeared
completely normal, about a gallon a month for 24 batteries.
I find it hard to believe the charge cycle is the main culprit,
as it seemed quite compatible with the Trojan T125 and T105
batteries I had in the past.
Nawaz replied:
you should have obtained better life that. You did not because
of the following:
[Key Statement:]
* We have had a lot problems with people assuming that a charger
good for Trojans should always be compatible with US. Not so. *
I am glad you mentioned the actual charge numbers, and it is
clear that the batteries were consistently undercharged causing
shedding and sulfation.
The recommended end of charge Voltage for US products is 2.583
Volts per cell, or 186 Volts for your 144 Volt nominal system,
and must be held there for two to four hours.
Charging is so critical, that they US2200's have gone 1206
cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are still not failed
yet. I would challenge any Trojan product to that.
Mark then asked:
>> recommended end of charge Voltage... is 2.583 Volts per
>> cell, ... must be held there for two to four hours.
>
> In my experience I would consider that an equalize charge. At
> least with Trojans, anything above 2.5VPC the battery is
> gassing heavily and will eventually heat up. What then
> consitutes an equalize charge for USB's? Do USB's gas at a
> different voltage than other lead acids?
US battery recommends equalization: after normal charge, use a
constant current power source with no Voltage limits, and charge
the set at C/20 rate. Start taking hourly Voltage readings. Your
set is equalized when the three consecutive Voltage readings are
within 0.004 Volts per cell. Voltage control will not equalize
them well enough
[Comment: C/20 is 11A, with no voltage limit. Who equalizes
their packs at 11A for 2-4 hours?]
Then, Nawaz added to this previous comment:
>>Charging is so critical, that they US2200's have gone 1206
>>cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are still not failed yet.
>>I would challenge any Trojan product to that.
This charge profile is proprietary this time.
[Comment: In other words, it's not reproduceable outside
of a lab environment.]
Nawaz's final statement:
USBMC sells about three thousand batteries per day, and
growing like. We have problems as you you describe with our
products, we would be and indeed should be, out of business.
Trojan gas a lot more and spew acid on top of batteries
because of their higher antimony 6% (5% for the USBMC) alloy
for the positive grids. The gas more and a lower Voltage.
Hope this helps.
*****End of post
It would've been nice to know some of those details before
I bought the USB's, I had no idea the charge cycle was so
aggressive. Several here have commented that the USB's have
too aggressive a charge algorithm as well, so it's not just
me. For all I know the USB's are every bit as good as
Nawaz attests, but to achieve that performance requires a
careful review of your charging system and charge profile.
It's a $2400 experiment I'm not willing to repeat.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
Some very good three finger type pressure plates will have roller bearings
and have a lighter pressure and a quick release which are normally use in
high performance vehicles.
The multi finger type may cost more than the three finger type which I have.
They are stiffer then the other types.
I install a spare Warp 9 in my EV while my GE-11 was in maintenance using a
Electro Auto Adapter plate design for a 92 S-10 that bolted to a 75 350
cu.in. competition stamp steel bell housing. My pedal also went clear to
the floor. The adapter plate could had been 3/4 shorter, so I use a longer
throw out bearing which still clear just right when the clutch was release.
The Warp 9 is 5/8 inch longer than the GE 11, I also had to replace the
clutch push rod with a longer one that pushes against the clutch fork. I
make these rods out of different length grade 8 bolts with a swivel bearing
rod end that screw on this rods.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:35 AM
Subject: No Limp Guages in EV's
> Hi Folk's
>
> I could probably see an Andy Rooney segment on "don't you just hate limp
> guages in EV's?" That's one of my favorites. I usually see the factory
> gauges in a conversion limp on their peg with add on gauges tacked around
> under the dash. Here's what I do to utilize the existing gauges:
>
> Tach: Most tachs operate on the 12V back EMF spikes from the primary
> coil releasing and is my cas (on the 74' 914 Porsche I'm converting) it
> operates as a frequency counter independent of amplitude. I applied a 100
> hertz square wave from a signal generator into a reverse connected audio
> transformer 1:4 ratio to get the required 40-80V p-p needed to operate the
> guage. It pops up at 40V p-p 3000 rpm's with 100 hertz (50 hertz is
> actually 3k rpm's). The tach counts 2 pulses per rev since the
> suck-squeeze-pop-poowee of the ICE in a 4-cylinder is actually 2 pulses
> per rev. So you have to glue two magnets on the ADC motor shaft and one
> hall effect device from say www.digikey.com and connect to a 12V emmitter
> follower par using a 2N4401 NPN tied to 12V and a 2N4403 PNP to gnd. The
> output feeds the audio transformer and verify with a scope that the tach
> is seeing a nominal 60Vp-p or you may have to invert the signal into
> another buffer driver transistor pair for full-bridge
> operation into the transformer primary to boost the output to the tach.
>
> Temp Guage: For most auto temp gauges, check your shop manual wiring
> diagram and put a 300 - 47 ohm resistor from where the sender was to GND
> (or use the old sender). It's a low value NTC thermistor. I got a 600
> ohm @ 25C from digikey that is 45 ohms at 100C and works well epoxied into
> a battery lug and bolted on top of the ADC motor.
>
> Fuel Gauge: This is similar, try a 39 ohm resistor to ground and it
> should read 1/2 a tank. The trick is in modulating this to the E-F of the
> battery which requires an algorithm in your uP to PWM through an opto
> coupler with an open collector transistor TIP110 and a 10 ohm resistor
> from the collector to the gauge. The program decrements the 100-400hertz
> PWM every 3 minutes that the state of battery charge per cell drops .02V
> from 2.2V full to 1.8V empty.
>
> BTW, of those converting 74' Porsche 914's, there are two clutch
> pressure plates available I discovered last night. I have the older 3
> spring type (in good condition) instead of the multifinger newer type. Is
> there a mechanical advantage to replacing it with the newer design? Or
> was it just done to be cheap? My clutch disengages near the floor even
> with a new disc, my adapter may be too thick.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Finding fabulous fares is fun.
> Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and
> hotel bargains.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, John will never grow up!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Plasma Boy Gets a 50" Plasma ...'Video Only' Supports EV Drag
Racing!
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 5:50 PM, John Wayland wrote:
>
> > All who walk down the entrance stairs into the lobby on their way into
> > the show will be hit right between the eyes with White Zombie on
> > display (both in person and on a bright big plasma screen) as it melts
> > its fat rear tires, jerks its front tires off the ground, and blows
> > away muscle cars and hot imports. I somehow, talked the video chain
> > 'Video Only' into providing a brand new, Hi Def 50 inch Panasonic
> > TH50PX 600U plasma screen and DVD player setup! I also got an even
> > better spot for White Zombie, showcased right next to the souveneer
> > booth at the arena entrance-exit. Tim and I got together and designed
> > a looping DVD that features action racing videos with added-in screen
> > captions like 'Electric Datsun vs 396 Chevelle' ....'Electric Datsun
> > vs 454 Camaro', etc. There's lots of tire smoke, roaring V8s, and
> > whistling-swooshing turbos as the gas-fueled competition struggles to
> > catch White Zombie, the electric muscle car.
>
> Oh yea!! Great job Plasma Boy (when does that become Bearded Plasma
> Man? :-)
>
> I don't know what other EVers think but I know what I see. I see hard
> work paying off for the EV community. Racing is a large part of what
> defined the current ICE age. EVs are different, not better or worse,
> just a different way to do what you want. Racing showcased the strength
> of the ICE. Now racing is doing the same for EVs.
>
> Way to go John! (I want to get in a major show someday :-)
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.4/703 - Release Date: 2/26/2007
2:56 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It comes down to awareness and education. You do not touch a power
line because you know it can kill you, not because you can hear it.
But remember the phrase from school, "Stop look and listen" , that
would need to be modified to "stop, look, look again" but that does
leave the blind person with "stop, can't see, can't hear", and the
deaf person with "stop, look, look again" I does require drivers and
pedestrians to be more aware though but in San Francisco we tend to
kill so many yearly that we need underground crosswalks. I think I
see an invention opportunity here for the disabled, all new
production Ev's have a chip and when one is within a certain
proximity to a deaf or blind person or legal crossing area it
vibrates, could be in the cane:) Hey, even your favorite mp3.
Don't forget- bicycles are silent, but then again we need to be more
aware of those as well. Humm- I think I do that when I'm riding.
M
On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:26 AM, Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:
I agree 150% with the Madman on this!!!!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:18:56 -0800
Man this pisses me off. We work like heck to have a silent powerfull
drive
train.. and then the safety NAZIS step in and complain that if a
Blind
man... What a about Deaf???
There is always somebody that fan find something wrong with what
ever is
not normal.
Clearly.. I won't be adding backup beepers or flashing lights
just to
make
some group safer.
All vehicles have horns and lights, USE them when you see
somebody about
to
make a mistake. And Oh Yea that's what brakes are for!!!
I have snuck up on many folks.. it's kinda fun. In the drag
lanes nobody
steps un front of the lit off Gasser, But they just back up and
walk into
a
EV with a LOT more torque on tap than the Guys using Explosions
to move
thier Sled.
NPR can find a problems with a nice Sunny Day in May.
Rich -
NPR doesn't make the laws here in the US. They just report the news.
This
was news.
If you don't like a law ( or proposed law) write your
congressman. Don't
blame the messenger- or, complain to us.
And, it had been refreshing not to hear about Nazis all the time
since
Neon
John dropped out of sight.
If we could all refrain from name-calling, it would reduce the
noise on
this
loop.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Refi Now: Rates near 39yr lows! $430,000 Mortgage for $1,399/mo -
Calculate
new payment
http://www.lowermybills.com/lre/index.jsp?
sourceid=lmb-9632-17727&moid=7581
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date:
2/24/2007
8:14 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Almost. The plan is to take the first one and drop it into my string of
AGMs and connect the regbus to it. I will then collect telemetry from it.
but I don't think it is going to be 12V, kind of a waste of electronics.
I think that a higher voltage lower AH fits in that form factor better.
I am not sure I would ever charge a deep cycle AGM with an alternator. I
have watched the voltage on my Pontiac and it is wild, very poorly
controlled and a little higher than I would like. Newer cars >1990, seem
to push higher voltages. I also wouldn't charge AGM's with a standard
lead acid charger, if that is what you mean.
The space chose has the foot print of a group24 cell with an additional
hight of an inch or so, this will accommodate about 144 cells
I have looked at a lot of options and here are my favorite two
My Fav and probably first:
6 series is 24 parallel which is about 55ah 19.8V Module @ ~25lbs
(17kwh)
This should give a person a 316V pack with 16 modules for a total
weight of 400 Lbs
The idea here is that this is more than equivilant to a 300V 50ah
lead acid pack which is more like 30ah and 1000lbs.
The reduction in weight will feel like haveing more batteries.
A second choice if people want it and I can make money with the first
option.
4 series is 36 parallel which is about 80ah 13.2V Module
12 of these will give you a 158V pack at 80ah (12kwh)
Please don't ask about cost. I am gonna work on this project on the
assumption the battery cell prices will come down by the time I am ready.
There is some question on how the cells will play together in parallel
over long periods of time and what to do if 1 cell goes bad. The way the
battery is made up of sub modules gives an option to have 2 series
strings of lesser in parallel and therefore more management on charge. I
cant however think of a good(high amp,low loss) way to remove one string
if bad.
I have considered another idea:
A battery-controller-charger-BMS slice (RAEB, Redundant Array of
Expensive Batteries?)
Imagine a pack voltage slice, lets say 12" high 48" long and 4" thick.
Each slice has a PWM controller that can control the slices output
or charge current
Many drawbacks here, each slice would have to have it's own inductor
and capacitor,but by merging the BMS with the controller we gain the
ability to drop a a string in trouble or take power at different rates
from differnt capacity slices
The real trick is how do you manage these. I thing they connect to
the common power bus at one end then blade fuses are used as jumpers
between all the layers allowing parallel balancing. A BMS/charging slice
ends the unit and plugs into the wall. Perhaps we just get the battery
management electronics down in cost to the point that each slice has
it's own BMS.
The real beauty hear is you can buy an EV at a pack voltage and
incrementaly add or subtract capacity without changing pack voltage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL
Thanks Chris!!
In this particular situation the White Zombie is out of control, like
a bucking bronco and Plasma Boy is holding onto the panic button for
dear life.
John is really getting it together for a great show. Video on a 50
inch plasma screen is going to be awesome.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Feb 27, 2007, at 8:36 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: February 26, 2007 10:38:22 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: White Zombie - Electric Muscle Car T-shirts soon
available
Hi John and Chip,
The T-shirt design looks great.
I thought you waited to pull than panic button until the end of the
drag strip. ;-)
And awesome job getting sponsorship on the video screen. Your
ability to generate excitement for EV racing is incredible.
I hope to see you this weekend.
Regards,
Chris Brune
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, Replying to myself.
After looking at the link 10 manual it is pretty well explained how to
do it. Use the relay driver diagram on page 38 (50v 150ma max) and you
get the 20 to 40% overcharge by setting the CEF parameter to 80-60%.
Set the alarm off (F10) at 0%. Then the alarm goes off opening the
relay to the charger. Now I just need a charger I can fit on the
motorcycle :)
>>I still don't quite see how I am going to set it up though. I am
running NiCad too and want to trigger the charger from the amp hours
reading. I think I have to actually use when the alarm goes off
(recharged setting) since the alarm ON (shorted to ground)has to be min.
10% below full. I'll need an invert in there or something. To tired to
think about it tonight, but I'll be working on it on the bench this week
I hope.
-Garret
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well it may not be the Rolling Stones, but I believe
I'll have to buy 5 copies for my momma 8^o
Fun Stuff
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
I have now been running my Trojan T-145's since Jan 4 2002. Have put over
10,000 miles on them and only charge them once a week. I only run about 5
miles a day and let them only discharge to about 75% and only charge them to
about 95%. Maximum per cell volt is 2.5 volts for normal charge and perform
a equalize charge of 2.58 volts about every three to six months which I may
water at that time.
I like the high antimony alloy content in the lead. My first batteries
which were 90 two volt cells had very hard battery post that you can torque
the battery links at the recommended torque value with out any shrink back.
The next set of batteries must have had very low antimony, that the battery
terminals would mushroom and than finally shrink back and melted off the
posts.
I plan of running these Trojans to Jan 4 2012 to break my old record of ten
years on my original set of industrial 2-volt cells.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Brueggemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:30 AM
Subject: Of USBattery and Trojans
>
> Numerous folks have inquired about the difference
> between USB and Trojan batteries I referenced in
> my recent EV Bashing posts, so I dug out the original
> email exchange between Nawaz Qureshi and myself
> to find out the specifics. I have trimmed the post
> to the essential details:
>
> First, the exchange before the purchase:
>
> Nawaz wrote:
>
> I used to work for Trojan for 11 years. While they are
> good batteries, US are superior for using better alloy,
> having extra electrolyte space on top, using heavier
> assembly components (our equivalent batteries weigh
> more) among many many other better features. In addition,
> as the postings on this list indicate, we do our best to
> help EV people.
>
> ...
>
> Sounds good so far.
>
> Now, fast forward about a year:
>
> Mark B wrote:
>
> Around 8 months of service I noticed a reduction in range
> and after verifying my charge cycle could not explain it.
> I was definitely getting less Ah's out of the batteries
> than when new.
>
> Around the 10 month point my range was reduced to just
> over half of new. I began monitoring my charge profile on
> almost every cycle and keeping a careful log of driving
> distance and charging kWh's.
>
> At the 12 month point my range is down to less than 16 miles,
> less than half of new. An interesting trend I've noticed
> at this point is if the vehicle is driven to the point it
> can no longer maintain speed and left to sit for three hours,
> static voltage and specific gravity measurements *both*
> indicate an approximate 60% SOC. It's almost as though the
> paste is isolated from the electrolye. I noted numerous
> cells had dark electrolyte and knew then there was something
> seriously wrong.
>
> ...my daily charge is a bulk charge at 28A to approximately 172V
> (2.38VPC) then taper down to a cut off at 2A, which ends up
> around 178V (2.47VPC). Every ten cycles or so I disable the
> cutoff and do an equalize charge for 4 hours, where the voltage
> climbs to 182V (2.53VPC) and about 2A. Water usage appeared
> completely normal, about a gallon a month for 24 batteries.
>
> I find it hard to believe the charge cycle is the main culprit,
> as it seemed quite compatible with the Trojan T125 and T105
> batteries I had in the past.
>
>
> Nawaz replied:
>
> you should have obtained better life that. You did not because
> of the following:
>
> [Key Statement:]
>
> * We have had a lot problems with people assuming that a charger
> good for Trojans should always be compatible with US. Not so. *
>
> I am glad you mentioned the actual charge numbers, and it is
> clear that the batteries were consistently undercharged causing
> shedding and sulfation.
>
> The recommended end of charge Voltage for US products is 2.583
> Volts per cell, or 186 Volts for your 144 Volt nominal system,
> and must be held there for two to four hours.
>
> Charging is so critical, that they US2200's have gone 1206
> cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are still not failed
> yet. I would challenge any Trojan product to that.
>
> Mark then asked:
>
> >> recommended end of charge Voltage... is 2.583 Volts per
> >> cell, ... must be held there for two to four hours.
> >
> > In my experience I would consider that an equalize charge. At
> > least with Trojans, anything above 2.5VPC the battery is
> > gassing heavily and will eventually heat up. What then
> > consitutes an equalize charge for USB's? Do USB's gas at a
> > different voltage than other lead acids?
>
> US battery recommends equalization: after normal charge, use a
> constant current power source with no Voltage limits, and charge
> the set at C/20 rate. Start taking hourly Voltage readings. Your
> set is equalized when the three consecutive Voltage readings are
> within 0.004 Volts per cell. Voltage control will not equalize
> them well enough
>
> [Comment: C/20 is 11A, with no voltage limit. Who equalizes
> their packs at 11A for 2-4 hours?]
>
>
> Then, Nawaz added to this previous comment:
>
> >>Charging is so critical, that they US2200's have gone 1206
> >>cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are still not failed yet.
> >>I would challenge any Trojan product to that.
>
> This charge profile is proprietary this time.
>
> [Comment: In other words, it's not reproduceable outside
> of a lab environment.]
>
>
> Nawaz's final statement:
>
> USBMC sells about three thousand batteries per day, and
> growing like. We have problems as you you describe with our
> products, we would be and indeed should be, out of business.
> Trojan gas a lot more and spew acid on top of batteries
> because of their higher antimony 6% (5% for the USBMC) alloy
> for the positive grids. The gas more and a lower Voltage.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> *****End of post
>
> It would've been nice to know some of those details before
> I bought the USB's, I had no idea the charge cycle was so
> aggressive. Several here have commented that the USB's have
> too aggressive a charge algorithm as well, so it's not just
> me. For all I know the USB's are every bit as good as
> Nawaz attests, but to achieve that performance requires a
> careful review of your charging system and charge profile.
> It's a $2400 experiment I'm not willing to repeat.
>
> Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
> Albuquerque, NM
> S-10 EV
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Would you be willing to pay $2-$10 more per battery for the added safety?
Consider the recent media "feeding frenzy" regarding the lithium ion
laptop battery fires. It gets blow all out of proportion, and cost the
companies many millions of dollars.
Now imagine if there were 4500 of these cells in a $100,000 sports car.
A fire could tarnish the EV industry for decades, even if no one was
hurt and nobody's garage burned down as a consequence.
For myself, I like EVs because they can't burn like an ICE full of
gasoline, motor oil, etc. This safety is lost if we go to batteries that
burn. As a rule, electrical equipment standards always require
fireproof and flame retardant materials.
I hope Optima has not changed to a plastic or style of construction that
creates a fire hazard where none existed before.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Not to be too negative, but I have to say that over 40 years of
> watching the EV business, I've seen a typical sequence of events
> occur again and again, with only minor variations.
>
> The EV builder starts out with the best of intentions...
> He develops a good first prototype... the project picks up speed...
> you can't wait to buy one... the price is only a little higher
> than an equivalent ICEV.
>
> The project gets closer to production... they discover hidden
> costs... legislative compliance and legal concerns... need new
> employees or consultants or outside services to handle them.
>
> To satisfy investors, the price doubles or triples... the list
> of potential buyers suddenly shrinks... investors lose interest...
> funding dries up...
And the downward spiral continues. The company goes out of business,
having delivered little or nothing.
All so very true, David! That's one of the things that scares me about
this Sunrise project. I've watched this sort of price inflation happen
many times; often to bright people that are a lot smarter than I am.
The challenge is to find ways to avoid this trap. On one hand, I want to
talk about the Sunrise because I need help in so many areas, and there
are so many great minds on this list. But on the other, I don't want to
create unreasonable expectations, blow it up with hot air, and take
people's money for nothing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
http://www.moserengineering.com/Pages/Shop-Services/shopservices.html
Moser Engineering resplines OEM and aftermarket axles, custom shafts, 4
wheel drive axle shafts, transmission shafts, and clutch input/output
shafts.
We can cold spline almost any shaft up to 60 Rockwell in hardness that
has enough material to cut full depth splines. Our machining
capabilities include shafts up to 3" in diameter and lengths up to 48".
All resplining is done cold so no annealing or heat treatment is required.
Single Axle
$65 each
Aha! I'll contact them and see what can be done.
See; I told you there are smart people on this list!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote:
From the sounds of it, I have 3 cooling options that should work:
a) Just run fluid through the system and use an expansion tank.
b) Run the fluid through a heater core.
c) Run the fluid through a heater core with an electric fan in extreme
heat.
We're using a Zilla in our Sunrise prototype. The plan is to cool it
with oil from the differential rather than water. The differential
itself has so much mass and surface area that it becomes our "radiator".
This requires an oil pump, but we are using much lighter oil and
dry-sump lubrication for the differential anyway, to get lower losses.
You want to talk battery abuse? The nearly-dead Trojans I found in
the car were 5 years old and bone dry!
They were wired in series, right? Then we have a serial killer! That's
multiple battricide! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ross said: "What about those flexible solar panels that Stan Ovshinsky
showed in "Who Killed the Electric Car?" They look very flexible."
Tim Gamber said: "I also saw how flexible those panels were they would
definitely do the trick."
[Mick says:] That depends on what one means by "do the trick". Ovshinsky was
associated with Uni-Solar, see www.uni-solar.com . The problem is that 12
square feet of this type active material weighing about 9 pounds would
deliver only 68 watts under full sun. A converted Porsche 914 (as mentioned
in the original posting) might require 3,000 watts or more to run down the
road, so the difference is dramatic.
On-board solar could (a) look cool & (b) run the radio & other low power
loads possibly replacing the DC-DC converter. However, I think it could not
do much else of importance for a typical EV conversion.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, on one hand it would look cool to a lot of people to be at least
partially solar powered.
It brings additional attention to EVs.
On the other hand it's easy to spread misunderstands and unrealistic
expectations of EVs.
Even if the owner is ready to say the solar panels do next to nothing, a
lot of people will spread rumors about the solar powered car you could
drive for free (which isn't gonna happen unless you leave it in the sun
for an entire month and only drive to the store once). Like I say,
maybe the attention due to that thought floating around isn't entirely a
bad thing, but it's misinformation.
Worst case scenario, you may get labelled a wacko or it may even
discredit the EV field even though you have no intention of making false
claims about the capabilities.
Danny
Mick Abraham wrote:
On-board solar could (a) look cool & (b) run the radio & other low power
loads possibly replacing the DC-DC converter. However, I think it could not
do much else of importance for a typical EV conversion.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you sure the differential oil will be cool enough to cool a zilla
controller? A differential can get pretty hot before it damages the diff or the
oil, but a zilla's threshhold I'm sure is much lower. Open Road Racing and
trucks used for towing can even need a differential cooler -- that is extreme
use but illustrates how hot the diff can get.
I can see with short, easy trips (even 1/4 mile racing or autocross) consistent
with lead acid batteries this could work. What about the customer that puts in
300 miles range worth of Lion batteries, and uses a Sunrise to climb several
thousand feet at freeway speeds in the summer?
One last thought. Coconni said one of the reasons the Tzero gets such excellent
range is that the differential gets heated during charging (a motor field is
used as an inductor, which heats the motor a bit, which heats the
differential). Maybe you want your differential to run warm to maximize range?
It sounds like it would be easy to turn on the oil pump and heat it a bit
during the ending phase of charging, or just have a heating element in the diff
itself.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:35:16 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla for the newbie
Richard Acuti wrote:
> From the sounds of it, I have 3 cooling options that should work:
> a) Just run fluid through the system and use an expansion tank.
> b) Run the fluid through a heater core.
> c) Run the fluid through a heater core with an electric fan in extreme
> heat.
We're using a Zilla in our Sunrise prototype. The plan is to cool it
with oil from the differential rather than water. The differential
itself has so much mass and surface area that it becomes our "radiator".
This requires an oil pump, but we are using much lighter oil and
dry-sump lubrication for the differential anyway, to get lower losses.
> You want to talk battery abuse? The nearly-dead Trojans I found in
> the car were 5 years old and bone dry!
They were wired in series, right? Then we have a serial killer! That's
multiple battricide! :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if you used a solar panel to prop up the weakest battery in the string?
Let's say you have 19 batteries that can go 30 miles, and 1 that can only go 15
miles. You can only drive the car 15 miles. You prop that battery up with solar
panels while the car is parked all day, and get a few more miles. The solar
panels could even help while driving, relieving the load on the bad battery by
5 or 10 amps. The downside is you need a fairly $ophisticated BMS to do this.
----- Original Message ----
From: Mick Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:11:05 AM
Subject: RE: Questions on EV
...On-board solar could (a) look cool & (b) run the radio & other low power
loads possibly replacing the DC-DC converter. However, I think it could not
do much else of importance for a typical EV conversion.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a common misconception held by the majority of automobile drivers.
Actually the data shows that motorcyclists are much safer splitting lanes
than sitting in traffic. Rear end collisions where motorcyclists are killed
are far lower (30-50%) in California than other states with similar riding
seasons. Conversely the number of fatal accidents where motorcycles are hit
from the side or front is statistically the same as most other states for
each mile driven. This means that insurance rates should be LOWER for
California. Unfortunately non-fatal accidents do not have the data
resolution of fatal accidents, which is why these numbers stem from
fatalities.
If you would like to delve deeper into the data, you can use FARS
(http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/) or read the Hurt Report
(http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html), the last available
comprehensive motorcycle fatality analysis.
There are two things that you can do to ensure you will never hit a
motorcycle splitting lanes. Use your turn signal and check your mirrors. A
blinking signal for motorcyclists is like garlic to a vampire. We take
notice.
It is unfortunate that a minority of motorcyclists do not abide by the laws
and give all bikers a bad name. Trust me, as a motorcyclist I have to put up
with auto drivers AND these poorly skilled motorcyclists trying to kill me.
Two inches may seem like nothing for a big heavy car, but for a skinny
nimble motorcycle it is a gaping hole.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
Frankly I see motorcycles lane split in la all the time. They are not
lane sharing.
It is unfortunately and burden on others and a hazard.
It also rasies insuranc erates and lawsuits as riders who take a
dangerous lane split inevitably sue the poor auto driver who doesn't see
them passing from behind with two inches to spare and unknowingly close
the gap and are invovled in an accident.
Sorry but I am for a separate lane but lane sharing is ridiculous and
dangerous.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:18 pm, James Allgood wrote:
> Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split"
> lanes, ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like
> motorcycles. You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if
> the cop can catch you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it
> stays within one lane, and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a
> motorcycle. For more than 7 years, every day, rain or shine, I split
> and share lanes and can tell you with two wheels I can stay legal about
> 80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it would be nearly impossible not to
> straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive abreast in 42 states, but
> only California has no law prohibiting motorcycles to share a lane with
> a car. I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the positive effect on
> reducing congestion, but from what I have seen of the width I would not
> share lanes in the Tango. But I would love to watch one try. Just keep
> an eye on your six and let faster splitters go by.
>
> Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
> http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV list" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
>
>
>> From: Bruce
>>>> I wonder if it is really legal for Tangos to drive two abreast?
>>
>> I got this answer from Rick Woodbury of Commuter Cars Inc.
>>
>>> According to testimony given at a Senate Transportation Committee
>>> Hearing in WA state by a captain of the WA State Patrol, it is legal
>>> for
>>> 2 Tango to share a lane, but not overtake in a lane.
>>>
>>> In CA all 30 traffic officers who were asked, mostly CHP, unanimously
>>> stated that they would not ticket Tangos for lane splitting. Lane
>>> sharing is certainly not a problem.
>>>
>>> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
>>> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
>>> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
>>> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
>>> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
>>> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 70 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
>>
>>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
