EV Digest 6482
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Tango lane splitting
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now Available
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVs/nEVs/parts for sale on the web
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zilla for the newbie?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: PFC-30 Documentation Error?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Blind EVs
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Please get us some more cars to plug in!
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) US Batts & Trojan Charge Profile
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Of USBattery and Trojans
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: US Batts & Trojan Charge Profile
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Questions on EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Questions on EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EVLN(125 Bottles of Wine in the Dr. Seuss nEV)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EVLN(think.no is hiring)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: US Batts & Trojan Charge Profile
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, sorry, I meant to take this off-list and to email only. Pardon the
mistake.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 12:09 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
Frankly I see motorcycles lane split in la all the time. They are not
lane sharing.
It is unfortunately and burden on others and a hazard.
It also rasies insuranc erates and lawsuits as riders who take a
dangerous lane split inevitably sue the poor auto driver who doesn't see
them passing from behind with two inches to spare and unknowingly close
the gap and are invovled in an accident.
Sorry but I am for a separate lane but lane sharing is ridiculous and
dangerous.
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:18 pm, James Allgood wrote:
> Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split"
> lanes, ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like
> motorcycles. You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if
> the cop can catch you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it
> stays within one lane, and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a
> motorcycle. For more than 7 years, every day, rain or shine, I split
> and share lanes and can tell you with two wheels I can stay legal about
> 80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it would be nearly impossible not to
> straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive abreast in 42 states, but
> only California has no law prohibiting motorcycles to share a lane with
> a car. I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the positive effect on
> reducing congestion, but from what I have seen of the width I would not
> share lanes in the Tango. But I would love to watch one try. Just keep
> an eye on your six and let faster splitters go by.
>
> Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
> http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
>
>
>> From: Bruce
>>>> I wonder if it is really legal for Tangos to drive two abreast?
>>
>> I got this answer from Rick Woodbury of Commuter Cars Inc.
>>
>>> According to testimony given at a Senate Transportation Committee
>>> Hearing in WA state by a captain of the WA State Patrol, it is legal
>>> for
>>> 2 Tango to share a lane, but not overtake in a lane.
>>>
>>> In CA all 30 traffic officers who were asked, mostly CHP, unanimously
>>> stated that they would not ticket Tangos for lane splitting. Lane
>>> sharing is certainly not a problem.
>>>
>>> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
>>> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
>>> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
>>> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
>>> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
>>> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 70 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
>>
>>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Rich;
This goes back a ways, but thought I'd offer my experience
with a water cooling setup I tried years ago.
> I live in Maryland. The summers can be hot and the winters
> are cold. It never gets "Arizona hot" though.
I live in NM, and while it's not as hot as AZ, it has it's
moments. There's a period during the summer the temps will
be over 100, even though it's a "dry heat". Back when I
had a Kodiak controller, it was during those days I would
come out of work and my controller would be hot enough to
be in thermal limit just sitting in the sun all afternoon.
> I have 3 cooling options that should work:
> a) Just run fluid through the system and use an expansion tank.
> b) Run the fluid through a heater core.
> c) Run the fluid through a heater core with an electric fan
Lee Hart offered:
> The plan is to cool it with oil from the differential rather
> than water. The differential itself has so much mass and surface
> area that it becomes our "radiator".
I did something very similar, using an existing fluid.
Since I didn't have a controller with fluid passages in the
heatsink, I epoxied 1/4" copper tubing to the bottom plate,
and using a small pump, circulated windshield washer fluid
through them via a 120F thermostat control mounted to the
heatsink. It worked out that the 1/2gal of windshield washer
fluid absorbed enough heat to cool the controller down below
thermal limit long enough for me to get home. The upshot
of this post is that I used a fluid and reservoir that already
existed in the vehicle. Not to knock the radiator kits you
can buy or build, but I found that controllers really don't
have that much heat to shed in a typical trip, even on a hot
day, and on cooler days, supplementary cooling is totally
superfluous. So Rich, before you go through all the gyrations
of installing a radiator and reservoir for the tiny subset
of time you actually need it, experiment with the windshield
washer tank idea and see if it solves your problem. It did
for me.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Recently, I have been wondering if there was anything I could do, from my
remote location away from Lee and his Sunrise project or Jerry and his Freedom
EV, with the limited funds. I would be willing to find some time, but being
away from the happenings, makes me think that it isn't possible. But if there
is, just let me know.
Brian
On Mon Feb 26 11:06 , Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>David Roden wrote:
> > Not to be too negative, but I have to say that over 40 years of
> > watching the EV business, I've seen a typical sequence of events
> > occur again and again, with only minor variations.
> >
> > The EV builder starts out with the best of intentions...
> > He develops a good first prototype... the project picks up speed...
> > you can't wait to buy one... the price is only a little higher
> > than an equivalent ICEV.
> >
> > The project gets closer to production... they discover hidden
> > costs... legislative compliance and legal concerns... need new
> > employees or consultants or outside services to handle them.
> >
> > To satisfy investors, the price doubles or triples... the list
> > of potential buyers suddenly shrinks... investors lose interest...
> > funding dries up...
>
>And the downward spiral continues. The company goes out of business,
>having delivered little or nothing.
>
>All so very true, David! That's one of the things that scares me about
>this Sunrise project. I've watched this sort of price inflation happen
>many times; often to bright people that are a lot smarter than I am.
>
>The challenge is to find ways to avoid this trap. On one hand, I want to
>talk about the Sunrise because I need help in so many areas, and there
>are so many great minds on this list. But on the other, I don't want to
>create unreasonable expectations, blow it up with hot air, and take
>people's money for nothing.
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Lee,
I was searching for some more information on your Sunrise project, I
realise that only a few months have passed since you aquired it, but
I'm sure many people are watching with interest.
I wonder if you have time to give a quick update, perhaps to mention
who is involved and so on? If there has already been an update, or if
this info is on a website somewhere, sorry to bother you!
Regards
Evan
On 10/29/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It is midnight; the start of a new day. Sunrise is a long way off, but
it is coming!
Bob Rice and I have moved the Sunrise body and chassis to Minnesota,
where the process of turning it into a kit car has begun. This is the
first of what I hope will be many reports on our progress.
The Solectria Sunrise is an amazingly EV that has delivered tremendous
range even on ordinary batteries. It is roomy, lightweight, and strong
enough to have successfully passed NHTSA crash testing. But it is also
an extremely complex, expensive vehicle to build. Our first challenge is
to modify it to be affordable, and simple enough to be built by people
of average skill, while keeping as much as possible of the superb design
the same.
The Solectria Sunrise was also highly optimized for efficiency.
Accelleration, handling, and many "creature comforts" were compromised
to maximize range. This is not a good strategy for the typical buyer,
who prefers a car that excels in many areas. So our second challenge is
to improve and update the design, to make it more appealing to a wider
market.
Here is a rough description of our design as it is evolving:
- Same all-composite chassis and body, but rely more on conventional
fiberglass than on carbon fiber.
- Replace the light-but-weak Geo Metro McPherson strut front suspension
with Mustang II A-arm suspension, which is widely available in the
kit car market. It is stronger, more versatile, and offers better
handling.
- Replace the weak Dodge Neon rear suspension with fully independent
A-arm rear suspension, also from the kit car market. It provides
inboard disk brakes, is considerably stronger, and allows far
better handling.
- Change to rear wheel drive. Essentially all high performance sports
cars and sedans are rear wheel drive. It is much easier to get strong
rear differentials in any desired ratio, enabling extremely fast
accelleration.
- A large, quick-change battery pack. The central tunnel is enlarged
slightly, to 124"l x 12"h x 14.5"w to allow any battery type up to 24
6v T-145's. The pack slides out the front, complete with bumper and
front "clip".
- Rather than a single one-piece nonrepairable body, the front and
rear are replaceable "clips" to make crash testing and repairs
easier.
- The design will be modular (like a modern PC), so that builders can
use a wide range of motors, controllers, and batteries. You can build
it for low cost or luxury, efficiency or performance, AC or DC,
lead-acids or lithiums, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What you aren't realizing is that Lee and Jerry are both as isolated as you
are. Jerry not quite as much as Lee, but they are choosing to do something
anyway, and because they are now there are EV happenings in their area. I
happen to be fortunate that I live in an area where there are EV happenings
close by, Portland Oregon, but again their are a few brave soles who set out
on their own a decade or two ago and made it all happen.
damon
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] (fwd) VECTRIX Demo Bike Now
Available
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:35:35 -0700
Recently, I have been wondering if there was anything I could do, from my
remote location away from Lee and his Sunrise project or Jerry and his
Freedom EV, with the limited funds. I would be willing to find some time,
but being away from the happenings, makes me think that it isn't possible.
But if there is, just let me know.
Brian
On Mon Feb 26 11:06 , Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>David Roden wrote:
> > Not to be too negative, but I have to say that over 40 years of
> > watching the EV business, I've seen a typical sequence of events
> > occur again and again, with only minor variations.
> >
> > The EV builder starts out with the best of intentions...
> > He develops a good first prototype... the project picks up speed...
> > you can't wait to buy one... the price is only a little higher
> > than an equivalent ICEV.
> >
> > The project gets closer to production... they discover hidden
> > costs... legislative compliance and legal concerns... need new
> > employees or consultants or outside services to handle them.
> >
> > To satisfy investors, the price doubles or triples... the list
> > of potential buyers suddenly shrinks... investors lose interest...
> > funding dries up...
>
>And the downward spiral continues. The company goes out of business,
>having delivered little or nothing.
>
>All so very true, David! That's one of the things that scares me about
>this Sunrise project. I've watched this sort of price inflation happen
>many times; often to bright people that are a lot smarter than I am.
>
>The challenge is to find ways to avoid this trap. On one hand, I want to
>talk about the Sunrise because I need help in so many areas, and there
>are so many great minds on this list. But on the other, I don't want to
>create unreasonable expectations, blow it up with hot air, and take
>people's money for nothing.
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>--
>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
_________________________________________________________________
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Do a Craigslist search for your area - below is for the SF area]
EVs
2002 Toyota RAV 4 EV - *VERY RARE* All Electric vehicle - $62250
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/285448700.html
Electric Van, 1985 Griffon, Rare British Import - $6500 (Sonora)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/283754114.html
nEVs
2001 GEM Electric car with longbed - $5500 (san jose south)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/284936121.html
2005 GEM e2 electric car - $4500 (berkeley)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/283612149.html
EV parts
Electric Vehicle Parts - $1000 (berkeley north / hills)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/pts/282019955.html
Selling ICE parts - converting donor to Electric
1967 Jaguar e-type/420 4.2l complete engine and trans - $1500
(sunset / parkside)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pts/284364251.html
---
On eBay.com - search "electric vehicle"
Toyota : RAV4 All Electric 2002 Silver Toyota RAV-4 Electric
Vehicle *VERY RARE* $44,100.00
Ford : Ranger EV NIMH Ford Ranger EV - Electric Vehicle (RARE)
$20,100.00
Ford : Ranger All Electric 2000 White Ford Ranger Electric Vehicle
*VERY RARE* $12,100.00
Chrysler 2005 GEM E4 ELECTRIC VEHICLE 4 PASSENGER CHRYSLER CAR
$9,000.00
[Xebra] - The Commuter NEW- 3 Wheel All Electric Vehicle - Street
Legal $8,000.00
---
"electric vehicle" for sale
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu4t0beRF5lMBo1VXNyoA?p=%22electric+vehicle%22+for+sale
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu4t0beRF5lMBo1VXNyoA?p=%22electric+vehicles%22+for+sale
"electric car" for sale
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu4t0beRF5lMBo1VXNyoA?p=%22electric+car%22+for+sale
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu6x3buRFoCwAWTtXNyoA?p=%22electric+cars%22+for+sale
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much flow do you need at what voltage and AC or DC?
I *may* have some ideas.
FWIW dept.
John
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I have a 4000lb vehicle pushed by a warp 9 mated to the stock tranny. I
have experimented with a few cooling systems
1) I bought a jabsco water pump from the boat store.
2) I got a swiftech MCP-350.
Will try a 120mm Fan this summer,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are reading the old BETA only instructions.
That should have been taken off the site years ago.
Try relaoding it.
And the current instructions are shipped with the chargers.
SW1,2,3 are now the big 8 section Dip switch seen in all the photo graphs.
Dip switch section 3,4 are Reg start of timer and Regstart latch of timer.
They are both set to on to have the regs start the timer and release the
latch.
All chargers are shipped with 1,3,4 on rest of the eight switches are off.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: PFC-30 Documentation Error?
> The PFC-30 documentation says the following:
>
> "SW3 controls what event will start the timer:
>
> SW3-1 will start the timer when the acceptance voltage causes the
> charger to back off on current.
>
> SW3-2 will start the timer when power is applied to the charger
>
> SW3-3 will start the timer when the Regbus tells the charger to back off
> on current.
>
> If no Batregs are connected to the charger, SW3-1 will have no effect."
>
>
> Am I reading this wrong, or should that last sentence really say:
>
> "If no Batregs are connected to the charger, SW3-3 will have no effect."
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I actually got an email from a journalist from the Wall Street
Journal on the subject.
It was in response to a comment I had made on the subject to the The
National Blind Foundation. They emailed several of us from EVA/DC and
wanted a response to concerns about blind people not hearing hybrids
and EVs. The focus was actually on the Prius because a blind woman's
friend had bought one and she claimed she couldn't hear it. So she
wrote an article on the NBF website about it. If you do a Google
search you will probably find it.
When asked by the NBF, I half-jokingly said with a smiley. "Just put
rocks in the hubcaps." Well that comment ended up at the Wall Street
Journal and the reporter emailed me about it.
So I told him that as a group I thought EVers would not approve of a
device that would make our cars louder because most of us like the
quietness of the cars. I also told him that as a group EVers and
hybrid owners are conscious people already since many of us own the
cars for specific reasons (environmental reasons, prevent foreign oil
dependency, etc). And most importantly WE ALREADY KNOW our cars are
quiet and we well aware that people may not hear us so we have made
that adjustment in our driving by being more observant. I also
suggested that if the Prius manual didn't have it already that maybe
a warning in the manual might suffice. I also said that many new
efficient gas cars are quiet as well. It's not just hybrids and EVs.
I also said the Prius was around for 3 or so years in Japan before it
arrived here and I never heard of a problem there with blind people
being hit by the cars.
I also suggested that maybe rumble strips be installed about 50 feet
or so to oncoming intersections with heavy pedestrian traffic so that
the tire noise from the rumble strips will give people cues about
oncoming traffic whether it be super efficient gas cars, busses or EVs.
So I had a ton of suggestions other then installing devices on our
cars, but never heard back.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC
http://www.evadc.org
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Feb 27, 2007, at 12:22 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Blind EV's
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:18:56 -0800
Man this pisses me off. We work like heck to have a silent powerfull
drive
train.. and then the safety NAZIS step in and complain that if a
Blind
man... What a about Deaf???
There is always somebody that fan find something wrong with what
ever is
not normal.
Clearly.. I won't be adding backup beepers or flashing lights
just to
make
some group safer.
All vehicles have horns and lights, USE them when you see
somebody about
to
make a mistake. And Oh Yea that's what brakes are for!!!
I have snuck up on many folks.. it's kinda fun. In the drag
lanes nobody
steps un front of the lit off Gasser, But they just back up and
walk into
a
EV with a LOT more torque on tap than the Guys using Explosions
to move
thier Sled.
NPR can find a problems with a nice Sunny Day in May.
Rich -
NPR doesn't make the laws here in the US. They just report the news.
This
was news.
If you don't like a law ( or proposed law) write your
congressman. Don't
blame the messenger- or, complain to us.
And, it had been refreshing not to hear about Nazis all the time
since
Neon
John dropped out of sight.
If we could all refrain from name-calling, it would reduce the
noise on
this
loop.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading:
-
http://www.24dash.com/environment/17177.htm
[...]
The city council has already led the way in encouraging
environmentally friendly travel with the installation of the only
free on-street electric car charging points in the country.
If successful the two trial points, based at Covent Garden, will
lead to a roll-out of on street charging points across the capital.
[...]
-
I suggest that UK EVrs contact the Westminster City Council to find
out what would qualify as 'the EV charging spots were successful'.
Then do what it takes to prove more EV charging locations need to
be installed. You have an opportunity over several months to prove
this to the ones who have the $$$$ to install public EV charging.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Currently, I'm using the little glass or ceramic 3AG style fuses for the
heater and DC/DC converter and all the connections to the emeter. These
fuses are rated at 250 volts. The traction pack voltage is nominal 144vdc.
Now that I'm considering going up into the 350vdc range, I'll need fuses
for this application rated for at least 400 volts. I've checked Bussman
and Littlefuse, but so far, I've not found any small fuses that will
work in this application.
What are others using for accessory fuses at these high voltages?
Paul Wallace
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folk,s
Both are wrong, 2A is too low and 11A is too high. The final taper at
dv/dt=0 should be .01V per cell per hour + stop at 2.58V 5.5A per cell (per Jim
Drizos previous engineer at Trojan) This is the recipe I used for designing my
charger US patent number 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov . The C/40 rate is the best
as recommended by Michael Hackleman in his EV book, that's 5.5A for a 220ah
battery whether it's lead from Trojan or USbattery or Exide.
Have a rechargeable day,
Mark
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:30:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Mark
Brueggemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Of USBattery and Trojans To:
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer |
Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Numerous folks have inquired about the difference between USB and Trojan
batteries I referenced in my recent EV Bashing posts, so I dug out the
original email exchange between Nawaz Qureshi and myself to find out the
specifics. I have trimmed the post to the essential details: First, the
exchange before the purchase: Nawaz wrote: I used to work for Trojan for
11 years. While they are good batteries, US are superior for using better
alloy, having extra electrolyte space on top, using heavier assembly
components (our equivalent batteries weigh more) among many many other better
features. In addition, as the postings on this list indicate, we do our best
to help EV people. ... Sounds good so far. Now, fast forward about a
year: Mark B wrote: Around 8 months of service I noticed a reduction in
range and after verifying my charge cycle could not explain it. I was
definitely getting less Ah's out of the batteries than when new.
Around the 10 month point my range was reduced to just over half of new.
I began monitoring my charge profile on almost every cycle and keeping a
careful log of driving distance and charging kWh's. At the 12 month point
my range is down to less than 16 miles, less than half of new. An
interesting trend I've noticed at this point is if the vehicle is driven to
the point it can no longer maintain speed and left to sit for three hours,
static voltage and specific gravity measurements *both* indicate an
approximate 60% SOC. It's almost as though the paste is isolated from the
electrolye. I noted numerous cells had dark electrolyte and knew then there
was something seriously wrong. ...my daily charge is a bulk charge at
28A to approximately 172V (2.38VPC) then taper down to a cut off at 2A, which
ends up around 178V (2.47VPC). Every ten cycles or so I disable the cutoff
and do an equalize charge for 4 hours, where the voltage
climbs to 182V (2.53VPC) and about 2A. Water usage appeared completely
normal, about a gallon a month for 24 batteries. I find it hard to believe
the charge cycle is the main culprit, as it seemed quite compatible with the
Trojan T125 and T105 batteries I had in the past. Nawaz replied: you
should have obtained better life that. You did not because of the following:
[Key Statement:] * We have had a lot problems with people assuming that a
charger good for Trojans should always be compatible with US. Not so. * I
am glad you mentioned the actual charge numbers, and it is clear that the
batteries were consistently undercharged causing shedding and sulfation.
The recommended end of charge Voltage for US products is 2.583 Volts per
cell, or 186 Volts for your 144 Volt nominal system, and must be held there
for two to four hours. Charging is so critical, that they US2200's have gone
1206 cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are
still not failed yet. I would challenge any Trojan product to that. Mark
then asked: >> recommended end of charge Voltage... is 2.583 Volts per
>> cell, ... must be held there for two to four hours. > > In my
experience I would consider that an equalize charge. At > least with Trojans,
anything above 2.5VPC the battery is > gassing heavily and will eventually
heat up. What then > consitutes an equalize charge for USB's? Do USB's gas
at a > different voltage than other lead acids? US battery recommends
equalization: after normal charge, use a constant current power source with
no Voltage limits, and charge the set at C/20 rate. Start taking hourly
Voltage readings. Your set is equalized when the three consecutive Voltage
readings are within 0.004 Volts per cell. Voltage control will not equalize
them well enough [Comment: C/20 is 11A, with no voltage limit. Who
equalizes their packs at 11A for 2-4 hours?] Then, Nawaz added
to this previous comment: >>Charging is so critical, that they US2200's
have gone 1206 >>cycles (@75A. 100% DOD) today and they are still not failed
yet. >>I would challenge any Trojan product to that. This charge profile
is proprietary this time. [Comment: In other words, it's not reproduceable
outside of a lab environment.] Nawaz's final statement: USBMC sells
about three thousand batteries per day, and growing like. We have problems
as you you describe with our products, we would be and indeed should be, out
of business. Trojan gas a lot more and spew acid on top of batteries because
of their higher antimony 6% (5% for the USBMC) alloy for the positive grids.
The gas more and a lower Voltage. Hope this helps. *****End of post It
would've been nice to know some of those details before I bought the USB's, I
had no idea the charge cycle was so aggressive. Several here have commented
that the USB's have too aggressive a
charge algorithm as well, so it's not just me. For all I know the USB's are
every bit as good as Nawaz attests, but to achieve that performance requires
a careful review of your charging system and charge profile. It's a $2400
experiment I'm not willing to repeat. Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM S-10 EV
---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Paul,
I use Bussman Tron fuses that are rated for 500 volts and below. These are
FNQ type that are 0.1 to 30 amps rating in the 1.5 inch length by 1/2 inch
diameter.
I use a Littelfuse fuse holder No. L60030M that is 600v-30A rated which is
chassis mounted and you can interlock them to gang any length you want. You
can also get a panel mounted type, but these are normally special order. The
chassis mounted type are normally in stock at a electrical supply house.
You can also get these items from www.surplussales.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wallace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:14 PM
Subject: any suggestions for traction pack powered accessory fuses?
> Currently, I'm using the little glass or ceramic 3AG style fuses for the
> heater and DC/DC converter and all the connections to the emeter. These
> fuses are rated at 250 volts. The traction pack voltage is nominal
> 144vdc.
>
> Now that I'm considering going up into the 350vdc range, I'll need fuses
> for this application rated for at least 400 volts. I've checked Bussman
> and Littlefuse, but so far, I've not found any small fuses that will
> work in this application.
>
> What are others using for accessory fuses at these high voltages?
>
> Paul Wallace
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I should give Trojan a try on my second pack? I
used their more "aggressive" charging recommendations
and my pack appears to be dying an early death....
TiM
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--- Begin Message ---
--- "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Both are wrong, 2A is too low and 11A is too high.
Someone needs to tell US Battery, this is what their applications
engineer is saying.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A converted Porsche 914 (as mentioned
> in the original posting) might require 3,000 watts or more to run down the
> road, so the difference is dramatic.
Umm, at only 3,000 watts, that 914 isn't going to be "running"...walking
or jogging maybe.
I'm guessing that 3,000 watts is good for about 10-15 mph.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you'd be better off simply removing the weak battery. By the time
a battery needs "propping up" it's pretty much shot. Trying to keep it
running is likely to result in an acid volcano.
> What if you used a solar panel to prop up the weakest battery in the
> string? Let's say you have 19 batteries that can go 30 miles, and 1 that
> can only go 15 miles. You can only drive the car 15 miles. You prop that
> battery up with solar panels while the car is parked all day, and get a
> few more miles. The solar panels could even help while driving, relieving
> the load on the bad battery by 5 or 10 amps. The downside is you need a
> fairly $ophisticated BMS to do this.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mick Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:11:05 AM
> Subject: RE: Questions on EV
> ...On-board solar could (a) look cool & (b) run the radio & other low
> power
> loads possibly replacing the DC-DC converter. However, I think it could
> not
> do much else of importance for a typical EV conversion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(125 Bottles of Wine in the Dr. Seuss nEV)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.napavalleyregister.com/articles/2007/02/27/features/food_and_wine/doc45dda52b3cc2e834940889.txt
Landmarks at Spottswoode By JACK HEEGER Register Staff Writer
Tuesday, February 27, 2007
This is a big year for the Novak family and their Spottswoode
Estate Vineyard & Winery.
The 25th anniversary of the family winerys founding will be
celebrated in 2007, and so will the 125th anniversary of the
founding of the estate on which the vineyard is located and the
75th birthday of matriarch Mary Novak.
The family is celebrating in style. They kicked it off with a
vertical tasting of all 25 vintages of Spottswoode cabernet
sauvignon for about 80 of the most prestigious sommeliers and
wine writers from around the country this week, and theyre
taking the show on the road with similar trade tastings in Los
Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, New York and London.
All 25 vintages will be in Spottswoodes lot in this years
Auction Napa Valley and five bottles of each 125 bottles in
all, symbolic of the estates 125th anniversary will be offered
in an electric car that will represent the winerys continuing
contribution to a greener environment.
But Mary Novak doesnt plan anything special for her milestone
birthday in September and gave an emphatic No! when laughingly
asked by her daughter Beth Milliken, Do you mean you dont want
to jump out of a birthday cake? Shes definitely keeping it low
key.
[...]
Certified organic
In 1990 the estate was certified by the California Certified
Organic Farmers, and this has contributed to the quality,
consistency and flavors of the wine, Milliken said. Now, she and
Novak are looking past organic, and are examining the concept of
biodynamic farming.
[...]
The family has been aggressive in supporting the environment.
Novak purchased a red electric car described as looking a bit
like a Dr. Seuss vehicle. An identical car will be loaded with
the 125 bottles in the Auction Napa Valley lot.
[...]
We want to establish Spottswoode as one of the finest (wine)
estates in the world, she said. We want to maintain the ability
to grow if it makes sense to us, but not grow for the sake of
growth. This is an incredible piece of property, and were lucky
to be stewards of it. Copyright © 2007 Lee Enterprises
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(think.no is hiring)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=31
Jobs in Think Technology and Think Global
With the launch of the new TH!NK city in 2007, Think Technology
and Think Global are building an organisation to meet the
exciting challenges ahead. Because of the number of applications
received, however, we will only consider applications sent via
the "apply here" link in the following job descriptions:
[...]
Think Technology AS, 1930 Aurskog, Norway
Contact: Ole Fretheim, Managing Director
[openings]
Plant Manager
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=74
Quality Assurance Manager
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=82
IT Manager
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=83
Human Resources Manager
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=75
Engineering and Product Development
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=79
Finance and Accounting Manager
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=85
Purchasing and Logistics Officers
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=84
General Application
http://www.think.no/content.php?id=80
To send an open application to Think, please send an application
via the following link:
APPLY HERE
http://capus.websys-rekruttering.no/wsr_Recruitment?rId=5206D592BFAF26DFCB8C2E30D5028BE
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark E. Hanson wrote:
> Both are wrong, 2A is too low and 11A is too high. The
> final taper at dv/dt=0 should be .01V per cell per hour +
> stop at 2.58V 5.5A per cell (per Jim Drizos previous engineer
> at Trojan) This is the recipe I used for designing my charger
> US patent number 6,218,812 www.uspto.gov . The C/40 rate is
> the best as recommended by Michael Hackleman in his EV book,
> that's 5.5A for a 220ah battery whether it's lead from Trojan
> or USbattery or Exide.
Am I the only one that finds it amusing when someone argues that the
charging recommendations offered by the vice-president of engineering
for his own company's products are incorrect? It brings to mind an
expression of my father's about arguing with a signpost and taking the
wrong road home... ;^>
Oddly, I don't rely on USBMC to advise me on how to charge Valence
product, nor A123 Systems on the proper charging of Trojans, nor Trojan
on proper charging of USBMC product, etc.; I consult the engineers at
the company that make the batteries I am interested in charging.
Mark is quite right that C/40 is a very good finish rate; both US
Battery and Trojan agree on this. If you finish at a rate much above
this you risk shedding active material from the plates; if you finish at
a rate much below this, you will not achieve the required electrolyte
mixing. (USBMC did not suggest finishing at 11A; C/10 was recommended
as an equalise charge.)
Trojan and US Batteries *do* use different formulations and so benefit
from different charge strategies and respond differently to charging.
They have different recommendations for the dV/dt termination criteria,
although Mark's 0.01V/cell is a resonable compromise that can work for
both.
Another charging requirement of the US Battery product is that the bulk
charge rate not be significantly less than C/10. For instance, if you
are running US125s, USBMC wants you to be charging them with at least
20A (or so), which requires a minimum of a 120VAC 30A outlet for a 120V
pack. Failure to observe this minimum bulk current requirement can
apparently result in softening and premature shedding of active
material. Trojan product apparently doesn't behave this way, so if you
do not have a charger that can satisfy the USBMC charge requirements,
you might be better off using Trojan batteries.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
