EV Digest 6492
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Raser Motor ?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Woes
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Of USBattery and Trojans
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ZIF Recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: contactor controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Questions on EV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Battery Woes
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Airlabcorp nmih batteries, and alternatives
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV competition classification question
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zilla for the newbie
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Rich man's hobby?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Weight Distribution for Pickup Trucks
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Battery Woes- reverse compensation?
by "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Airlabcorp nmih batteries, and alternatives
by "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) OT Lithium ion Batteries
by KARSTEN GOPINATH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts? Comments.
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Datsun roadster?
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) EV Basher
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger,
Raser assigns some patents to RT Patent Company, Inc. Most have Jack Kerlin
as invertor. Using this you can find several issued patents you did not list.
7,116,029 is interesting. I have studied the math contained therein and do not
agree with the conculsions.
I have followed Raser Technologies for a number of years and have talked with
them from time to time. I find it interesting that this company, which has
never sold anything to my knowledge, has a market cap (price per share times
number of shares, I think) of $250 million and was over $1 billion a year or
two ago.
I really can not say wheather they have anything of value or not, but I do
not own any shares. I would like to hear from anyone who has more info on
Raser.
Jeff
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> They say *nothing* about the technology save for that it is "better"
> There isn't any information about which patents they supposedly hold,
> either.
If you are interested, you can go to and search
the patents/applications for the keyword "Raser":
Some relevant application hits:
20060082243
20060082237
20060012259
20050073281
20040227486
Issued Patents:
6847186
Cheers,
Roger.
---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Brueggemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
>
> --- TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > then it's over anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Coincidentally,
> that's the same point where their finish current and water usage
> starts to go up and it's harder to keep them equalized, so I don't
> consider that useful life anyway. I yank 'em, weed out the
> weakest with a load test, and keep the best ones for my solar
> backup power system.
> Hi EVerybody;
Msark is right! Ya hafta weed out the bum batteries early on. They ARE
NOT gunna "Get Well" no matter who nice you are to them!I never had Regs or
anything so fancy. I "tested" them EVery day, by blasting down the freeway
at 150-200 amps, when I got to work, or home, just felt around, looking for
crappy terminal comnnections or warm or hot cells. It would run the gamet
from 'Pleasently warm, warmer than the other guys, to a Trojan Teakettle,
boiling frothing cell. Well you get home and pull/ junk that damn battery!Of
course you would just know when you had that issue! The sagging voltage, no
comforting 115 volts on the freeway, at road speed. Your volt meter, a GOOD
60 dollar one will clue ya in darn fast!When you get to know your EV you can
find alota issues coming on slowly
> Anyway, to answer your question about how to not murder your
> next pack, I would suggest going with Trojans and screw the
> USB's, or any other brand for that matter (for 6V floodeds).
> If they are that fussy about bulk, finish and equalization
> then forget 'em. The Trojans have always provided consistent and
> dependable service in my EV without any undue attention at all.
> For the 3 new packs of T-105's I've had, my EV has been plug
> and drive. If you want to play beta tester for different batteries
> and charge algorithms be my guest, but be prepared to spend a lot
> of time and money on batteries. But if you're like me and the EV
> has to earn it's keep, you can't be doing too many $2000
> experiments.
> The Trojans worked best for me. I mixed and matched Trojans and US's
awile. Figured that this would be a good real world test. They were ALL
used, the US's musta had a bad childhood life, in their deformative years,
in their first, as thery would be bubbling along furiously BEFORE the
Trojan's were charged. They sure SMELL different, too?!A most destinctive
smell, gas, hydrogen, wierd, compared with charging the hell out of
Trojans.My most happy experiance with badd-eries was my first; 400 bux worth
of used T 105's, I got about 20k out of them, as I was charging at work, and
could split my 52 mile RT to a charge at 26 miles, but I could get home IF I
didn't get a charge.
YMMV
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TiM M wrote:
Maybe I should give Trojan a try on my second pack? I
used their more "aggressive" charging recommendations
and my pack appears to be dying an early death....
You know, to help resolve this sort of Trojan vs. USB debate, one could
put in half a pack of Trojans, and half USB, and *see* how they behave.
Which lasts the longest? Which performs better? (with a given charger
and charging algorithm).
Or, you could use *two* different chargers and/or charging algorithms on
a pack of identical batteries, to see whether they last longer with the
higher USB recommendations, or a more modest one.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Not to split hairs (!), but in CA, the HOV (car pool) lane is separated
from the other lanes by two double-yellow lines, usually with about 18
to 36 inches between the sets of doubles. This is practically another
"lane" for a motorcycle, and indeed, you'll see motorcycles in this lane
all the time, continuously for miles, including CHP. I've asked CHP
about this, and they say that riding between the lines like this is
legal.
If the lines were 36" apart, the Tango would indeed fit between them.
Rick Woodbury has done lane sharing with his Tangos; indeed, I believe
he had a video of it somewhere. He was driving side-by-side with a
motorcycle.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Let's say I take 1/8-thick aluminum or copper bar and cut two 1-inch
squares out of it. I attach one square, via a wire, to the cell
terminal. I attach the other square to the regulator. Now I press
the two squares together and hold them firmly to each other with a
spring, sort of like a home-made mechanical contactor. Would that
work as well as banana jacks or fuse clips? It would certainly be
easy to pull 42 of them apart -- just release the spring and lift
all 42 away.
First, you don't want to use aluminum for a connector. It forms an
insulating oxide coating almost immediately on contact with air, so you
are sure to get bad connections.
Copper isn't much better; it also soon forms an oxide coating (it
doesn't take long for shiny new copper to turn brown or green).
So, connectors are usually made of, or plated with metals that don't
form oxide coatings (gold, platinum), or whose oxides are conductive
(silver, nickel), or so soft that they easily scrape off (tin, lead).
Banana plugs take a couple ounces of force to plug/unplug. 42 of them
would thus take about 5 pounds of force to plug/unplug. If that's too
high, you could position a single big thumbscrew in the center of the
array of regulators, and by screwing it in/out, it could plug/unplug all
the banana plugs simultaneously.
ZIF connectors usually have contacts that don't quite touch when first
mated (thus zero force). They then have a lever that you operate to move
a cam that presses all of them together simultaneously. With a little
ingenuity, I'm sure something like this could be worked out, too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Wilker wrote:
Weird Idea:
Use a very long, heavy duty extension cord and an electric tractor. Just
have to be careful not to run it over.
A long time ago (1970's?), I recall a quickie picture and a caption in
one of the popular mechanics type magazines. A farmer had outfitted his
tractor with an electric motor. He put a telephone pole in the center of
his field. He had a big roll of cable on a spool at the top. A weight
and pulleys wound it up.
The other end of the cable connected to a spring-loaded pole on the
tractor. He just drove back and forth across the field as usual. The
cable was a good 10' in the air, and held relatively tight by the spool
and weight. Claimed it was far cheaper to run than gasoline!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings wrote [on the Frendly Robotics Robo-mower]:
Ideally that would be great.
However I have a large acre, approximately 40,000
square feet of lawn (800sqft house), and a few dogs.
Plus our puppies would have a conflict with it. For
the big $1600 model it takes up to 3 hours to mow 5400
square feet per the website and then it charges. So
that could potentially be 2-3 days where it goes off
to mow the lawn where we'd have to keep the dogs in
and living right at the center of town by the school
doesn't help either.
I have one, and it's a neat toy. It is designed to run unattended, and
won't hurt dogs, children, etc. With all its bumpers, tilt switches,
etc. you'd have to work pretty hard to get cut with it.
It cuts very slowly, but that doesn't matter if you aren't the one doing
the work.
You can buy extra batteries, and just swap them (one mowing, one on
charge). By the time one runs down, the other is ready for use. The
battery can literally be replaced in a few seconds.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Do you also need a diode across the motor with a contactor controller?
Seems like there will be a slice of time, on the order of several
milliseconds, while one contactor opens and the other closes, during
which the motor needs to freewheel.
You don't "need" it, but the contacts will last a lot longer with it.
In the old days, the drum controllers had intermediate steps in between
the voltage steps that wired a resistor in series with the motor to
suppress arcing (and smooth the transitions). The contact fingers could
thus short two adjacent speeds together without a problem. For example,
the contact sequence might be:
off
12v with series resistor
12v direct
24v with series resistor
24v direct
48v with series resistor
48v direct
The sliding connection to these was wide enough to bridge two adjacent
contacts together. So, the motor could be connected to 12v with resistor
*and* 24v direct at the same time. The resistors prevented a short circuit.
Newer systems (but still pre-diode) used a big RC "snubber" across the
contacts. The capacitor carries the motor current during the transition
time of the contactors. It could be a big old oil-filled paper
"condenser" (1930's), or by the 1950's an electrolytic.
A modern diode is a better solution that either of these.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael wrote:
As a thought... wouldn't it be better to replace a $100 battery
than to prop it up with $1000 in solar panels?
It's all about economics.
If every battery in your pack is identical, you wouldn't need any
battery management. But they aren't identical; so you need battery
management to avoid murdering them young.
With a simple shunt-regulator type manager, your range is limited by the
weakest battery; when it goes dead, you have to stop driving. If the
weakest one is (say) 20% weaker than average, you get 80% of the pack's
theoretical range.
Capacity falls as the batteries age, so range goes down, too. At some
point, the weakest battery's capacity gets so low that it can't meet
your daily range needs. So, you need to buy a new pack. Let's say a new
pack costs $1000, and it took a year to reach this point.
Now, suppose you have a battery management system that can find the
weakest battery, and *charge* it while parked or driving (from PV
panels, for example). The PV panels only need to provide enough power to
charge *one* battery (not 10 or so), and only at enough current to add
20% to its capacity. This makes them much smaller and cheaper than ones
that could charge the entire pack 100%.
When new, your range is 100% of the average battery's capacity, not 80%
(i.e. 20% more range).
As the batteries age, you can get more cycles out of them before the
weakest battery falls so low that even with the PV panel's help, you
still can't do your daily range.
So, PV panels that are only 2% of the pack's capacity can double your
pack life. That could easily pay for the cost of the PV panels and
balancing system.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
Are you sure the differential oil will be cool enough to cool a zilla
controller? A differential can get pretty hot before it damages the
diff or the oil, but a zilla's threshhold I'm sure is much lower.
On all of my EVs, the differential barely gets warm even when I reach
the limits of my range. I'm sure heat is a problem for long distance
trucks, but not for EVs -- if the differential gets hot, something is wrong!
One last thought. Cocconi said one of the reasons the Tzero gets such
excellent range is that the differential gets heated during charging
I agree with this. A lubrication expert told me that the "extreme
pressure" additives in gear oils don't work effectively when cold. Part
of the reason for such thick oil in gearboxes is to be deliberately
lossy when cold, so it warms itself up through extra losses. The oil
thins out at higher temperatures, reducing losses, and so tending to
stabilize itself.
In an EV that is frequently used for short distances, we don't want
these extra cold losses and wear. So, we can use a lighter oil with
additives designed to work better cold, with pressure lubrication to
insure adequate coverage.
At least, that's the idea. We'll find out how it works in practice!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TiM M said: "What do I need to do different to make a new pack
last longer?"
[Mick says:] Responding to that question, I sent an email to Tim off-list,
regarding the BattEQ(TM) automatic battery balancer which I distribute. I
sent the mail on Monday, 2-26 but did not get back my requested receipt.
Tim: I'm following up through this EVDL channel to make sure you got that
information.
By balancing the battery string during discharge as well as during recharge,
BattEQ reduces the likelihood that "zombies" will develop within the battery
string. It's worth a look. I extend a 30 day return privilege on all my
BattEQ sales but have had no returns so far, and also no product defects so
far. For more information, see the Top Floor of my website.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 1, 2007, at 5:39 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
How is that project going? What kind of range
increase does Ed get with his Sparrow? How reliable
is the BMS and has he had any batteries fail or get
out of balance.
Those would be very good things to know, along with:
Can I buy them?
How much do they cost?
How long would I have to wait for delivery?
What kind of warranty will they have?
System design? Weight? Physical dimensions? Voltage? Current?
Lifetime? Maintenance requirements? Environmental requirements? How
do I design an EV around them, or how do I install them into an
existing EV?
Sadly, we do not know any of these things, and his website is very
sparse on actual data. The pictures show only what looks like a
prototype module built of Lexan or Plexiglass, and an installation
inside a Sparrow that includes a PFC charger.
On the plus side, he has at least one OEM customer - Phoenix Motors.
And his previous products have seen a lot of miles inside Sparrows.
My suggestion is to email Ed and see what you can find out, if you're
really interested.
I would also like to point out that there are two other potential
sources for NiMH battery systems here on this list.
Jack Murray has been offering test packs to members but hasn't gotten
any takers yet. (As far as we know.) With all the interest in
alternative chemistries, and the proven track record of NiMH in factory
EVs, I'm surprised that nobody has (publicly) given him money for a
working set of batteries. Jack seems very responsive and available on
the list.
And Jeff Shanab has been musing about how he would design such a thing.
He's a long ways from producing a product, but he's here on the list,
talkative, and full of what sound like good ideas.
Why not consider these two alternatives?
Rod
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-Victor
Your questions should be asked of the NEDRA teck. director, ref. Nedra
website, for drag racing.
Also get a NHRA rule book and read it.
For road racing, proev.com,is your best ref.
Mike Harvey with a new group of ev auto crossers can help in that aera of
ev racing.
Now for my opinion.The system you are suggesting fits within NEDRA rules.
Inovation in racing should be incouraged as long as it follows safety rules.
About 8 years ago I proposed a similar system, but at that time the nessary
equipment
wasn't available at any mortals buget.As an engineer you should be able to
deal with the
tecknical problems,such as copper sizing and expensive silicon that likes
to go away in a flash.
The next problem I encountered was the motor you most likely won't want to
exceed around
a thousand anps per motor to avoid building a very nice plasma furnace,so
say 4 motors.
Since amps~torque,thedrive train will need to be altered putting the
vehicle in an advanced class,
so you would not be competing in the S/C class anyway.
So, solve the problems, build a vehicle, and come out and play. FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 2/28/2007 8:26:16 PM
> Subject: EV competition classification question
>
> Rod, you're perhaps the most qualifying to answer, but
> Bill Dennis John or others who know, please chime in:
>
> I want to ask about classifying EVs for any
> competition in general and [drag] racing in particular.
> As I understand currently among some other dividing in classes
> parameters main one is traction battery voltage.
>
> My question is: is it battery itself voltage or the
> voltage applied to the drive system?
>
> Consider: If I have powerful 480V battery I
> can reconfigure it to, say, 48V one still retaining
> its total power (10x amps).
>
> Now I DC-DC it back to 480VDC and apply that to the drive
> to get obvious advantage of 480V performance. Am I
> still considered to be in 48V class because I truly have
> 48V battery?
>
> I'm not sure if competing with such config providing real 480V
> performance with any "normal" 48V-straight-to-the-controller
> systems is very fair.
>
> Scenario 2: I have only 200V battery and charge 200V worth of
> ultracaps with isolated DC-DC. Ulsracaps are in series
> with main 200V pack, so my system is seeing 400V most of the way
> down the track. Caps are not considered battery, (I could
> use powerful isolated DC-DC to add its output to the battery
> itself, no caps). Am I still in 200V class?
>
> Any thoughts on this and rules in place?
>
> Thanks for insight,
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ask my master mechanic about using oil for cooling. Transformers and some
capacitors use oil, but most of these are formulated as a dielectric as well
some cooling in the transformer.
The oils in a vehicle that may be rated for higher temperature than a at
46/54% water to antifreeze ratio, but has a lower heat transfer than
antifreeze, even its mix at 30/70% for 270 degree rating.
Also you would have to add a double oil filter system, to remove the metal
particles and some carbon.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla for the newbie
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > Are you sure the differential oil will be cool enough to cool a zilla
> > controller? A differential can get pretty hot before it damages the
> > diff or the oil, but a zilla's threshhold I'm sure is much lower.
>
> On all of my EVs, the differential barely gets warm even when I reach
> the limits of my range. I'm sure heat is a problem for long distance
> trucks, but not for EVs -- if the differential gets hot, something is
> wrong!
>
> > One last thought. Cocconi said one of the reasons the Tzero gets such
> > excellent range is that the differential gets heated during charging
>
> I agree with this. A lubrication expert told me that the "extreme
> pressure" additives in gear oils don't work effectively when cold. Part
> of the reason for such thick oil in gearboxes is to be deliberately
> lossy when cold, so it warms itself up through extra losses. The oil
> thins out at higher temperatures, reducing losses, and so tending to
> stabilize itself.
>
> In an EV that is frequently used for short distances, we don't want
> these extra cold losses and wear. So, we can use a lighter oil with
> additives designed to work better cold, with pressure lubrication to
> insure adequate coverage.
>
> At least, that's the idea. We'll find out how it works in practice!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What can be easier? Just suspend your cord 300 feet cord coming out
straight from your tractor's garage with few helium filled balloons.
Plug the other end into the tractor. Done.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Dave Wilker wrote:
Weird Idea:
Use a very long, heavy duty extension cord and an electric tractor.
Just have to be careful not to run it over.
A long time ago (1970's?), I recall a quickie picture and a caption in
one of the popular mechanics type magazines. A farmer had outfitted his
tractor with an electric motor. He put a telephone pole in the center of
his field. He had a big roll of cable on a spool at the top. A weight
and pulleys wound it up.
The other end of the cable connected to a spring-loaded pole on the
tractor. He just drove back and forth across the field as usual. The
cable was a good 10' in the air, and held relatively tight by the spool
and weight. Claimed it was far cheaper to run than gasoline!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are correct. I did the same before the turn of the century for EVen
less money.(1956 Beetle with an 8"ADC and Curtis controller @ 120vdc) Sold
it running for a profit. Turned the profit into the next project.
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:38 PM
Subject: EV's: Rich man's hobby?
> I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I just wanted to point out some
> figures.
>
> I know it costs thousands of dollars to convert a donor car from scratch,
> especially if you use quality components. BUT- do you guys realize that as
> the population of EV's grows, they are becoming much more affordable? That
> there is a growing "used EV" population and market? Yes, it's small but
it's
> happening. It's growing. I know because I've done it TWICE.
>
> I paid $2500 for a nearly turn-key Beetle. It only needed batteries. $1300
> later, I'm on the road. The donor car is in pretty darn good shape. It has
a
> dented fender and the bumper needs adjusted so it will stop drooping but
> what little rust it has is under control and I'll clean it up with a
little
> POR15. I've seen decent gas-powered Beetles sell for between $2500-$5,000
> dollars. Well I fall right in the middle.
>
> My first EV may not count in some of your opinions. It was a Comuta-Van ex
> postal truck. Top speed of 55 mph, seated 2 (if you installed the
passenger
> seat). But hey, I installed an onboard charger and commuted in it for a
> year. I put a few thousand miles on it too. It was a truck so I hauled
cargo
> from Home Despot and trash to the dump. I paid $2,000.
>
> Anyone look at the ev trading post lately? Several complete vehicles
ranging
> from $5 - $25k. The fact is, anyone who is ambitious enough to read a
book,
> read the internet and learn can build or own one of these vehicles now. It
> won't be a White Zombie or a Goin' Postal but these cars will get a lot of
> people to and from work and the grocery store.
>
> Well, the family and I are off to Chipotle's for some dinner. In the
> Beetle....;)
>
> Rich A.
>
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What can be easier? Just suspend your 300 feet extension cord coming
out straight from your tractor's garage with few helium filled balloons.
Plug the other end into the tractor. Done. Drive around as you pleased.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Dave Wilker wrote:
Weird Idea:
Use a very long, heavy duty extension cord and an electric tractor.
Just have to be careful not to run it over.
A long time ago (1970's?), I recall a quickie picture and a caption in
one of the popular mechanics type magazines. A farmer had outfitted his
tractor with an electric motor. He put a telephone pole in the center of
his field. He had a big roll of cable on a spool at the top. A weight
and pulleys wound it up.
The other end of the cable connected to a spring-loaded pole on the
tractor. He just drove back and forth across the field as usual. The
cable was a good 10' in the air, and held relatively tight by the spool
and weight. Claimed it was far cheaper to run than gasoline!
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My Electravan had the main pack behind the cab & a 1/3 size pack was in the
front. Some people put the weight in the frame rails. It works very well
if you just put as many as possible up front and let the back take care of
itself. If I do another truck it will have a 156k Zilla and 26 golfcart
batteries. The bed will tilt & I'll try to get them all in the frame rails.
If not then the extra batteries will go behind the cab under the bed. The
bed will be cut & welded to allow this. Look at Grassroots EV for some
examples and of course the EV Photo Album. Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 8:02 PM
Subject: Weight Distribution for Pickup Trucks
> I am wondering about weight distribution in a pickup truck
> conversion. Is it as crucial to mimic the ice weight distribution as
> you would in a car or do most people center the weight towards the
> back more because the truck can handle it?
> Is there a general way this is done in a pickup or is it something
> that different people have done and do differently?
>
> Any thoughts would be helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> Tehben
>
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--- Begin Message ---
In case nobody has mentioned it, I believe Altair Nano has an exclusivity
agreement with Phoenix so if I understand correctly they won't be selling
anyone else batteries for at least 3 yrs unless Phoenix doesn't meet an
agreed-upon volume.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/altairnano_clos.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Phil Is right.
I directly quote our web site recommendation which I wrote:
"* Charge Time = 10 Hours. Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the
voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase by the
same amount for temperatures below 80°F."
It cannot be any more clear that you reduce (subtract) the Voltage at higher
temperatures......
Sincerely
Nawaz
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Marino [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 3:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Woes- reverse compensation?
Tim -
The temperature compensation should be the reverse of what you posted - you
need higher charging voltages at lower battery temperatures. Was that just
a typo in your post, or have you been compensating in the wrong direction?
Phil
>From: TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Battery Woes
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:28:29 -0800 (PST)
>
> OK, I followed the US battery recommendations for charging my
>pack. I set the voltage for 2.583 Volts per cell, plus .0028V per cell
>per degree above 80F, and Minus .0028V per degree below 80F. I
>generally started the charge at ~20 amps, after the voltage was reached
>the current would taper to ~5 amps and shut off after ~1 hour. I ran
>light cycles on the pack and I programmed the voltage limit to 130V and
>the current limit to 350, but seldom went over 250.
> What do I need to do different to make a new pack last longer?
>I'm supposed to kill my first pack, apparently it's dead. I'm trying to
>figure out how I killed it and what I can do to prevent the same thing
>happening to a replacement pack. Would a set of zener regs have helped?
>I was under the impression I could get away with an occasional
>equalization charge. The wet cells would use a little more water,
>refill and all is well.
>
>TiM
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
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I have been in contact with Jack, and am planning on getting a set of 12
batteries from him...Just working on the funding. Hopefully I should be
sending him a deposit within the month...
-Matt
On 3/1/07, Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Mar 1, 2007, at 5:39 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
> How is that project going? What kind of range
> increase does Ed get with his Sparrow? How reliable
> is the BMS and has he had any batteries fail or get
> out of balance.
Those would be very good things to know, along with:
Can I buy them?
How much do they cost?
How long would I have to wait for delivery?
What kind of warranty will they have?
System design? Weight? Physical dimensions? Voltage? Current?
Lifetime? Maintenance requirements? Environmental requirements? How
do I design an EV around them, or how do I install them into an
existing EV?
Sadly, we do not know any of these things, and his website is very
sparse on actual data. The pictures show only what looks like a
prototype module built of Lexan or Plexiglass, and an installation
inside a Sparrow that includes a PFC charger.
On the plus side, he has at least one OEM customer - Phoenix Motors.
And his previous products have seen a lot of miles inside Sparrows.
My suggestion is to email Ed and see what you can find out, if you're
really interested.
I would also like to point out that there are two other potential
sources for NiMH battery systems here on this list.
Jack Murray has been offering test packs to members but hasn't gotten
any takers yet. (As far as we know.) With all the interest in
alternative chemistries, and the proven track record of NiMH in factory
EVs, I'm surprised that nobody has (publicly) given him money for a
working set of batteries. Jack seems very responsive and available on
the list.
And Jeff Shanab has been musing about how he would design such a thing.
He's a long ways from producing a product, but he's here on the list,
talkative, and full of what sound like good ideas.
Why not consider these two alternatives?
> Rod
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
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Does anyone know what happens to all the Li-ion laptop batteries that
are being recalled? Lenovo just recalled over 100,000 laptop batteries.
Apple and Sony recalled a ton. Do they just recycle them? I wonder if
there is a way to use those batteries again... Perhaps in an electric
car.
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On Mar 1, 2007, at 7:02 AM, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
When the EWoody passes a crash test, I'll be
a believer.
The eWoody *did* pass a crash test. Someone rear-ended him, and Jerry
was unhurt and the eWoody was easily and quickly repairable, even
though the other car was badly damaged (totalled?).
No, this is not the same as a DOT certification, but it's real-world
data. Jerry designed the eWoody to survive this type of crash, and it
did.
When he can afford it, he may get an official crash test. On the other
hand, if he can afford it, it means that he has made millions of
dollars selling FreedomEVs that haven't been officially crash-tested.
We'll just have to see how many Americans will buy vehicles without
crash certifications and air bags. Certainly, some of them will.
Jerry doesn't need or even want to sell to Joe Sixpack and Susie Soccer
Mom at this time. He's only planning to build tens of cars per year at
this point.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
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That's easy since you can buy them. In Dewalt tool packs they cost ~$10 a
cell or you can buy the new A123racing RC packs (www.a123racing.com) which
are priced at ~$15 a cell. Since this is the only way we can get them, this
is the cost to get started. Add on top of that, assembly, BMS, and charging
and you can see that if this is what you really really really want for
Christmas you can have it, but for most on this list it is still just too
expensive.
damon
From: "C. Dreike, Advantage Automation, Inc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: A few new KillaCycle photos (battery assembly)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:51:45 -0800
I'm sure the A123's are not cheap. Could you give us a flavor for the cost
of 800 batteries?
Thanks,
Chris Dreike
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug,
With respect, the crash you cite with E-Woody is pure anecdotal evidence.
Even though it is "real-world data" it does not prove anything.
It is good that Jerry is designing his creations with crashes in mind. But
without real "official" crash testing, making any claims of crashworthiness
(especially based on a single incident) is irresponsible and probably
liable.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: March 1, 2007 9:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
On Mar 1, 2007, at 7:02 AM, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> When the EWoody passes a crash test, I'll be a believer.
The eWoody *did* pass a crash test. Someone rear-ended him, and Jerry was
unhurt and the eWoody was easily and quickly repairable, even though the
other car was badly damaged (totalled?).
No, this is not the same as a DOT certification, but it's real-world data.
Jerry designed the eWoody to survive this type of crash, and it did.
When he can afford it, he may get an official crash test. On the other
hand, if he can afford it, it means that he has made millions of dollars
selling FreedomEVs that haven't been officially crash-tested.
We'll just have to see how many Americans will buy vehicles without crash
certifications and air bags. Certainly, some of them will.
Jerry doesn't need or even want to sell to Joe Sixpack and Susie Soccer Mom
at this time. He's only planning to build tens of cars per year at this
point.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
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> Compared to a stock 1200, my car should be called 'luxurious', what
> with its sunroof and full carpets :-) Compared to any 1200s that are
> still on the road, mine with its factory door panels in such great
> shape, non-cracked dash, clean carpets, and near pristine glass all
> around, doesn't look anything like a purpose-built stripped racer.
I would love to duplicate what John has done. From what I have seen, I think the
car is great on the track and on the street.
I wonder how many '72 Datsun 1200s are still around that aren't trashed...
--
joe
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Anyone seen anything like this before?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150096770942
In light of the Wayland discussion, would this not make a great conversion or
what?
:)
--
joe
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Mark wrote
"Taking a freeway offramp at 65+ and doing a four-wheel, all tires
screaming power slide around the curve and coasting to the
intersection is just too cool."
*****************************
'Nuf said! That explains the name!
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