EV Digest 6493
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts? Comments.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Datsun roadster?
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Well, how is the AltairNano Pack working?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Electric Bike as Cordless Tool
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Datsun roadster?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Electric Bike as Cordless Tool
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) 9Electric Progress Report Adaptor Plasma Cut
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) eWoody crashworthiness (was: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV competition classification question
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Datsun 2000 as donor
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: eWoody crashworthiness (was: Re: EV bashing,
RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: eWoody crashworthiness (was: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV competition classification question
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I saw an ad on Craigslist the other day and although it still was near the
top
(of the page (newest) it already read: For Sale: 72 Datsun *SOLD*
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Vitek
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Purpose-built, stripped of comforts? Comments.
> Compared to a stock 1200, my car should be called 'luxurious', what
> with its sunroof and full carpets :-) Compared to any 1200s that are
> still on the road, mine with its factory door panels in such great
> shape, non-cracked dash, clean carpets, and near pristine glass all
> around, doesn't look anything like a purpose-built stripped racer.
I would love to duplicate what John has done. From what I have seen, I think
the car is great on the track and on the street.
I wonder how many '72 Datsun 1200s are still around that aren't trashed...
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like a Datsun Fairlady. Great little car. Few things to consider
using it as an EV:
- what is the GVRW to curb weight ratio? Enough for a number of batteries?
- what is it like to get parts?
- what is the body and frame condition like? Statements like "from what i
can see there's no rust,body looks to be ok" are basically escape
statements that should be interpretted as "buyer beware"
- does this seller have the right to sell it? The statement "it was left on
my property" implies that he does not own it...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Vitek
Sent: March 1, 2007 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Datsun roadster?
Anyone seen anything like this before?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150096770942
In light of the Wayland discussion, would this not make a great conversion
or what?
:)
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I(and the kids) use corded electric push mowers for my huge yard and i
taught the kids to start close to the outlet and cord and slowly go back and
forth working away from the cord and outlet and never working back toward
the cord . it works well and creates no cord problems. mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for Electric Mower Suggestions for 1 acre
What can be easier? Just suspend your 300 feet extension cord coming
out straight from your tractor's garage with few helium filled balloons.
Plug the other end into the tractor. Done. Drive around as you pleased.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Dave Wilker wrote:
Weird Idea:
Use a very long, heavy duty extension cord and an electric tractor. Just
have to be careful not to run it over.
A long time ago (1970's?), I recall a quickie picture and a caption in
one of the popular mechanics type magazines. A farmer had outfitted his
tractor with an electric motor. He put a telephone pole in the center of
his field. He had a big roll of cable on a spool at the top. A weight and
pulleys wound it up.
The other end of the cable connected to a spring-loaded pole on the
tractor. He just drove back and forth across the field as usual. The
cable was a good 10' in the air, and held relatively tight by the spool
and weight. Claimed it was far cheaper to run than gasoline!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you read the article, the agreement just covers a very specific
type of vehicle: "four-wheel, all-electric vehicles having a gross
weight up to 6,000 pounds" They can sell batteries for all sort of
other applications.
Bill D.
At 09:35 AM 3/1/2007, you wrote:
In case nobody has mentioned it, I believe Altair Nano has an
exclusivity agreement with Phoenix so if I understand correctly they
won't be selling anyone else batteries for at least 3 yrs unless
Phoenix doesn't meet an agreed-upon volume.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/01/altairnano_clos.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My electric assist bike (Charger brand) has over 2,000 miles on it.
I've been through lead-acid, nickel-zinc, and nickel metal hydride
batteries: all unbalanced and all less than ideal. Just the cost of
batteries and chargers so far amortizes out to about 25 cents per mile of
travel.
I empathize with the "battery woes" expressed on the EVDL, but my
experiments have only cost hundred$ instead of thousand$. (Why do I persist
with this hobby? My wife would like the answer to that same question. On
early season rides when I'm out of shape, the EV <Grin> is more of an EV
<Grimace>. But I digress.)
To my mind, the electric assist bike is like a cordless power tool
which doesn't replace work but extends my own work effort. Now I'm ready to
fully embrace that concept. For 2007, I'm using Milwaukee lithium ion packs
from the V28 cordless tool line.
At last the batteries and the charger come from the same company,
with single source accountability. The V28 packs record the date of first
charge and they also count the number of recharges. Service centers can read
that data for warranty purposes. There actually is a warranty, too: full for
2 years or 1,000 charges, then pro-rated for another 3 years/1,000 charges.
The V28 batteries have a built in "performance optimizing circuit
which maintains cell balance". Now we're talking! I'm determined to not
butcher up the battery packs but leave them stock so I won't destroy my
warranty chances and so I can clip the same batteries onto some amped up
cordless tools someday.
I've had to modify the bike of course, mainly to allow the batteries
to be removed for charging. Putting batteries in a part of the bike where
they can't be quickly removed is a questionable decision in any case,
because most unbalanced batteries behave so badly that they must be accessed
often. I hope I never have to unscrew the cover for my main Charger control
box ever again because of battery hassles. The screws are all worn out.
From lurking on the EVDL I learned how to build a pre-charge
resistor circuit so I won't have a spark every time I connect a battery to
the discharged capacitors in the bike controller. (Thanks, EVDL crew.)
I've only got one battery at present, but two more on the way. The
bike actually runs fine off a single 3 amp hour V-28 pack. That's pretty
amazing, but only for about 15 minutes. I'll parallel the three packs for a
total of 9 amp-hours. I plan to use Schottky diodes so one pack can't
backfeed energy into another pack of slightly lower voltage. The diodes may
be overkill, but I'd like to not mess anything up...not this time.
The easy access battery box I built resides on the rack behind the
seat, so this put the battery weight higher than I would like. Battery
weight is fairly low, however.
With the money I've now spent on the Milwaukee parts, I'll need to
crank for another 1,400 miles to maintain my 25 cent per mile cost for
batteries etc. I'd better get pedaling or (as my wife suggests) I'd better
stop thinking that way. When the bike is dormant (such as winter/mud season)
I can still use my batteries on the new Milwaukee tools that I now am
required to buy in order to use the batteries that way. That helps me
justify the cost, doesn't it? Ah, America!
Seriously, though the experience of riding on a bionic bike is very
satisfying to me, a good way to get exercise, and a handy way to make short
errand runs. I've saved a few gallons of gasoline, and this hobby is also
educational for me. My Charger & I are longtime friends. Since it's a 24
volt bike that's part of why I went with the Milwaukee packs. Those with
hotter bikes that run on 36 volts might prefer the DeWalt or Bosch system.
If I can EVer get past battery problems with my bike there are other
things I need to work on such as performance enhancements. Hmm...I wonder if
one of those Milwaukee 28 volt saw motors might fit?
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Craigslist: 1970 Datsun 2000
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/286581645.html
Also: not entirely stock 510
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/286365942.html
Slightly modded engine (triple carb) 240Z
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/286260841.html
Blue accessories make this 510 go faster
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/285823233.html
$20 for just the 510 body
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/284961821.html
One lowered but otherwise stock 1200 that looks in
great shape for only $5000 in SF:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/282818367.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Vitek
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Datsun roadster?
Anyone seen anything like this before?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150096770942
In light of the Wayland discussion, would this not make a great conversion
or what?
:)
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mick, excellent idea! Keep us posted on your research. You might even get
the attention and support of Milwaukee. Worth a try anyways.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mick Abraham
Sent: March 1, 2007 10:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Electric Bike as Cordless Tool
My electric assist bike (Charger brand) has over 2,000 miles on it.
I've been through lead-acid, nickel-zinc, and nickel metal hydride
batteries: all unbalanced and all less than ideal. Just the cost of
batteries and chargers so far amortizes out to about 25 cents per mile of
travel.
I empathize with the "battery woes" expressed on the EVDL, but my
experiments have only cost hundred$ instead of thousand$. (Why do I persist
with this hobby? My wife would like the answer to that same question. On
early season rides when I'm out of shape, the EV <Grin> is more of an EV
<Grimace>. But I digress.)
To my mind, the electric assist bike is like a cordless power tool
which doesn't replace work but extends my own work effort. Now I'm ready to
fully embrace that concept. For 2007, I'm using Milwaukee lithium ion packs
from the V28 cordless tool line.
At last the batteries and the charger come from the same company,
with single source accountability. The V28 packs record the date of first
charge and they also count the number of recharges. Service centers can read
that data for warranty purposes. There actually is a warranty, too: full for
2 years or 1,000 charges, then pro-rated for another 3 years/1,000 charges.
The V28 batteries have a built in "performance optimizing circuit
which maintains cell balance". Now we're talking! I'm determined to not
butcher up the battery packs but leave them stock so I won't destroy my
warranty chances and so I can clip the same batteries onto some amped up
cordless tools someday.
I've had to modify the bike of course, mainly to allow the batteries
to be removed for charging. Putting batteries in a part of the bike where
they can't be quickly removed is a questionable decision in any case,
because most unbalanced batteries behave so badly that they must be accessed
often. I hope I never have to unscrew the cover for my main Charger control
box ever again because of battery hassles. The screws are all worn out.
From lurking on the EVDL I learned how to build a pre-charge
resistor circuit so I won't have a spark every time I connect a battery to
the discharged capacitors in the bike controller. (Thanks, EVDL crew.)
I've only got one battery at present, but two more on the way. The
bike actually runs fine off a single 3 amp hour V-28 pack. That's pretty
amazing, but only for about 15 minutes. I'll parallel the three packs for a
total of 9 amp-hours. I plan to use Schottky diodes so one pack can't
backfeed energy into another pack of slightly lower voltage. The diodes may
be overkill, but I'd like to not mess anything up...not this time.
The easy access battery box I built resides on the rack behind the
seat, so this put the battery weight higher than I would like. Battery
weight is fairly low, however.
With the money I've now spent on the Milwaukee parts, I'll need to
crank for another 1,400 miles to maintain my 25 cent per mile cost for
batteries etc. I'd better get pedaling or (as my wife suggests) I'd better
stop thinking that way. When the bike is dormant (such as winter/mud season)
I can still use my batteries on the new Milwaukee tools that I now am
required to buy in order to use the batteries that way. That helps me
justify the cost, doesn't it? Ah, America!
Seriously, though the experience of riding on a bionic bike is very
satisfying to me, a good way to get exercise, and a handy way to make short
errand runs. I've saved a few gallons of gasoline, and this hobby is also
educational for me. My Charger & I are longtime friends. Since it's a 24
volt bike that's part of why I went with the Milwaukee packs. Those with
hotter bikes that run on 36 volts might prefer the DeWalt or Bosch system.
If I can EVer get past battery problems with my bike there are other
things I need to work on such as performance enhancements. Hmm...I wonder if
one of those Milwaukee 28 volt saw motors might fit?
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Concerning Junior Electric Dragsters racing against electrics,
Sorry Rod, it got a little confusing with the quoting, etc. in the
subsequent replies, but the Jr. dragster comments were mine, not
Dennis'. (But, if he's got the ear of someone in the NHRA who can make
a difference.... ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm chipping away at converting an old Porsche to electric power. An adaptor is
a metal device that connects the electric motor to the gas car's transmission.
My latest accomplishment was to cut out the transmission plate and adaptor
plate.
The tool I used was a plasma cutter. I was lucky enough to find a used one. It
is old and probably weighs over 100 kg (220 lbs), but it was 1/4 the cost of a
new one and works great. It is really neat how quickly and cleanly it cuts
metal, yet the metal stays even cooler than cutting with a blade. It works like
hot air cutting butter. The plasma heats and eats the metal, and compressed air
blows it away. Some things I have learned about plasma cutting:
* It is way way faster than using a steel cutting wheel
* You can cut a hole or circle in the middle of something
* You should wear a grade 8 welding helmet
* The vapors can be toxic, so ventilate appropriately
* Lots of very fine dust is created, so I prefer to do it outside. Luckily
my plasma cutter has a 10 meter cord.
* I'm now really glad I put 240V plugs in my garage
* It is too hard to control the tip spacing without a cutting guide
* It is hard to see what you are cutting, so you really need a guide
* The plasma cutter really hates water, you need to empty the water trap
each time
* Cutting at waist height is better, as you can more easily see when sparks
are coming out the backside
Alot is the same as before, but I embedded some new pictures in this page:
<http://www.geocities.com/david_dymaxion/Adaptor/adaptor.html>
Geocities is bandwidth challenged, so if you can't get through try again a few
hours later. I'm planning to move my page to a better home.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 1, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Doug,
With respect, the crash you cite with E-Woody is pure anecdotal
evidence.
Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the information we pass
around on this list is anecdotal. Sometimes it's backed up with links
to "official" sources, but mostly it's folks telling each other stories
about what they found out when they did stuff. That's the whole point,
actually.
I offer your website as an example. You have spent an enormous amount
of time and effort to document your conversion, and I for one am very
glad you did. (Thanks!) But in the end, it's all anecdotal. Why did
you do it, if you believe that anecdotal evidence has no value?
Even though it is "real-world data" it does not prove anything.
I disagree. It's an existence proof. It goes like this: Q: is it
possible to build an EV in your garage that can survive a crash with
another vehicle? A: Yes. Here's an example.
Are you worried about Jerry lying to us? See the above paragraph.
There's no guarantee that anyone saying anything on this list is
telling the truth. You should evaluate his statements about his crash
just like you should evaluate everyone's posts. Use your common sense,
and if you decide to take action based on what was said, the outcome is
your responsibility.
You can certainly worry about whether Jerry's crash was representative
of the "average" crash, and of course you can't extrapolate from a
single data point to anywhere. But now (unless you choose to
disbelieve Jerry's story) you cannot say that it is impossible to build
an EV in your garage that cannot survive a car crash.
I will agree with you that Jerry's crash doesn't prove that the eWoody
or FreedomEV is "safe" in the same sense that a DOT-certified vehicle
is. Or in any sense! Or that it would have survived a slightly
different crash, etc.
But it is an existence proof, and existence proofs can have enormous
power. For many years, nobody believed that it was possible to run a
four-minute mile. 46 days after the existence proof, someone else did
it too.
My favorite existence proof is SpaceShipOne. Yes, it's possible for a
private company to put civilians into space. I'm following the growth
of this new industry with great attention.
If you don't like these examples, I'm sure that many people on this
list converted their EV after seeing all the existence proofs in the EV
Album. I'm one of them.
And that was an anecdote :)
It is good that Jerry is designing his creations with crashes in mind.
But
without real "official" crash testing, making any claims of
crashworthiness
(especially based on a single incident) is irresponsible and probably
liable.
IANAL, but I don't believe that either I or Jerry have ever said
anything so actionable.
I might be guilty of implying it, though, judging from your message. I
hope this reply helps to set things straight.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can comment on the "historical" perspective on voltage divisions,
but the present NEDRA tech director, Ken Koch, would be the person
that would have to make any official ruling.
Also, Victor never actually races anything, so this is just an
intellectual exercise. :-)
>>>>>>>>> From the historical perspective: <<<<<<<
Capacitors are the same as batteries if they are charged up before
you come to the starting line. They are storing electrical energy,
just like a battery, so they count just like a battery.
After the juice leaves the battery pack ("energy storage system"),
you can do whatever you want to the voltage and current with your electronics.
No one has tried charging a capacitor bank from the battery pack
during the race itself and put it in series with the battery pack.
From the historical perspective, this would be OK to do, but since
it has never been attempted, there is no precedent. It is an
interesting approach. You would have to have some way to show that
the caps are really at zero volts before you go on the track, I would
think. (See below, "Why folks don't do this")
>>> Why the rules are set up like this <<<
It all becomes a matter of fair and simple inspection, if you think
about it. You can inspect the batteries (or energy storage system)
with a voltmeter (and follow the wiring with your eyes) and know how
to classify the car. Once you are inside the electronics, there is no
way for the inspector to know what the voltage will become. If you
were to attempt to regulate the peak voltage inside the electronics
system, folks would figure a way to make it appear that the voltage
was less than it really was on the track. Then only cheaters would
win. It is best to not attempt to regulate something you cannot
fairly and easily inspect.
>>> Why folks don't do this all the time <<<
What you are forgetting is that the DC-DC converter (or creative
uncharged capacitor bank) needed to boost the voltage will have
weight and will be expensive. If you do the engineering analysis, you
will likely discover that it will be cheaper to take the high-voltage
record with a high-voltage battery pack than it will be to take the
low-voltage record with the DC-DC converter. The weight and
efficiency penalty of the DC-DC converter will likely make it more
difficult to take a record from a well-designed low-voltage car.
You will be going a lot faster if you spend the money taking the
high-voltage record instead of spending it to take the low-voltage
record. It is more fun to go faster. :-)
A transmission serves much the same function as the DC-DC converter
you are proposing, by the way.
Bill Dube'
At 08:49 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
Rod, you're perhaps the most qualifying to answer, but
Bill Dennis John or others who know, please chime in:
I want to ask about classifying EVs for any
competition in general and [drag] racing in particular.
As I understand currently among some other dividing in classes
parameters main one is traction battery voltage.
My question is: is it battery itself voltage or the
voltage applied to the drive system?
Consider: If I have powerful 480V battery I
can reconfigure it to, say, 48V one still retaining
its total power (10x amps).
Now I DC-DC it back to 480VDC and apply that to the drive
to get obvious advantage of 480V performance. Am I
still considered to be in 48V class because I truly have
48V battery?
I'm not sure if competing with such config providing real 480V
performance with any "normal" 48V-straight-to-the-controller
systems is very fair.
Scenario 2: I have only 200V battery and charge 200V worth of
ultracaps with isolated DC-DC. Ulsracaps are in series
with main 200V pack, so my system is seeing 400V most of the way
down the track. Caps are not considered battery, (I could
use powerful isolated DC-DC to add its output to the battery
itself, no caps). Am I still in 200V class?
Any thoughts on this and rules in place?
Thanks for insight,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Joe Vitek asked about the Datsun 2000 as suitable for a conversion.
Around 1970 Datsun made two roadster models, 1600 (smaller) and 2000
(slightly larger). Besides the 400 cc engine increase there was the
larger body of the 2000 and maybe a 5-speed tranny. Both had a lot
of Triumph and MG influence. Both models were pretty tough.
My memory is that both were monocoque like the MGB rather than body
and frame a' la Triumph. If so, the rust status of the load-carrying
panels should be evaluated carefully. Alternatively, one should be
prepared to add top (floor pan) and bottom reinforcing strips of
steel.
My one or two acquaintances who had these roadsters (at least one
had a 2000) were enthusiastic about them.
Cheers,
Rhett
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug, no need to blow this up. I was not calling Jerry a liar - in fact I
was talking about your comment, nothing to with Jerry or his work. Nor was
I saying that anyone could not build an EV in their garage. Nor am I saying
that anything we do here on this list is useless info.
What I am saying - one crash in uncontrolled conditions cannot be compared
to DOT crash testing. Making claims that it has been "crash tested" or even
implying that is has been "crash tested" is simply deception.
The e-woody accident is simply what it is. A single uncontrolled crash.
What can we extrapolate from this accident? That a crash, at the same
speed, in the same direction, with the same car, with all other conditions
held similar will yield the same results. This is NOT the same as DOT crash
testing.
There is a reason why crash testing costs upwards of $500,000. There is
reasons why billions of dollars have been spent on developing the crash
testing standards. I am not saying it is perfect, it can definitely be
improved. But a single uncontrolled accident is far from being "crash
tested".
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: March 1, 2007 10:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: eWoody crashworthiness (was: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker
Shock)
On Mar 1, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
> Doug,
>
> With respect, the crash you cite with E-Woody is pure anecdotal
> evidence.
Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the information we pass around
on this list is anecdotal. Sometimes it's backed up with links to
"official" sources, but mostly it's folks telling each other stories about
what they found out when they did stuff. That's the whole point, actually.
I offer your website as an example. You have spent an enormous amount of
time and effort to document your conversion, and I for one am very glad you
did. (Thanks!) But in the end, it's all anecdotal. Why did you do it, if
you believe that anecdotal evidence has no value?
> Even though it is "real-world data" it does not prove anything.
I disagree. It's an existence proof. It goes like this: Q: is it possible
to build an EV in your garage that can survive a crash with another vehicle?
A: Yes. Here's an example.
Are you worried about Jerry lying to us? See the above paragraph.
There's no guarantee that anyone saying anything on this list is telling the
truth. You should evaluate his statements about his crash just like you
should evaluate everyone's posts. Use your common sense, and if you decide
to take action based on what was said, the outcome is your responsibility.
You can certainly worry about whether Jerry's crash was representative of
the "average" crash, and of course you can't extrapolate from a single data
point to anywhere. But now (unless you choose to disbelieve Jerry's story)
you cannot say that it is impossible to build an EV in your garage that
cannot survive a car crash.
I will agree with you that Jerry's crash doesn't prove that the eWoody or
FreedomEV is "safe" in the same sense that a DOT-certified vehicle is. Or
in any sense! Or that it would have survived a slightly different crash,
etc.
But it is an existence proof, and existence proofs can have enormous power.
For many years, nobody believed that it was possible to run a four-minute
mile. 46 days after the existence proof, someone else did it too.
My favorite existence proof is SpaceShipOne. Yes, it's possible for a
private company to put civilians into space. I'm following the growth of
this new industry with great attention.
If you don't like these examples, I'm sure that many people on this list
converted their EV after seeing all the existence proofs in the EV Album.
I'm one of them.
And that was an anecdote :)
> It is good that Jerry is designing his creations with crashes in mind.
> But
> without real "official" crash testing, making any claims of
> crashworthiness (especially based on a single incident) is
> irresponsible and probably liable.
IANAL, but I don't believe that either I or Jerry have ever said anything so
actionable.
I might be guilty of implying it, though, judging from your message. I hope
this reply helps to set things straight.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: eWoody crashworthiness (was: Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker
Shock)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:37:25 -0700
On Mar 1, 2007, at 10:14 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Doug,
With respect, the crash you cite with E-Woody is pure anecdotal evidence.
Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the information we pass around
on this list is anecdotal. Sometimes it's backed up with links to
"official" sources, but mostly it's folks telling each other stories about
what they found out when they did stuff. That's the whole point, actually.
I offer your website as an example. You have spent an enormous amount of
time and effort to document your conversion, and I for one am very glad you
did. (Thanks!) But in the end, it's all anecdotal. Why did you do it, if
you believe that anecdotal evidence has no value?
Even though it is "real-world data" it does not prove anything.
I disagree. It's an existence proof. It goes like this: Q: is it
possible to build an EV in your garage that can survive a crash with
another vehicle? A: Yes. Here's an example.
Are you worried about Jerry lying to us? See the above paragraph. There's
no guarantee that anyone saying anything on this list is telling the truth.
You should evaluate his statements about his crash just like you should
evaluate everyone's posts. Use your common sense, and if you decide to
take action based on what was said, the outcome is your responsibility.
You can certainly worry about whether Jerry's crash was representative of
the "average" crash, and of course you can't extrapolate from a single data
point to anywhere. But now (unless you choose to disbelieve Jerry's story)
you cannot say that it is impossible to build an EV in your garage that
cannot survive a car crash.
I will agree with you that Jerry's crash doesn't prove that the eWoody or
FreedomEV is "safe" in the same sense that a DOT-certified vehicle is. Or
in any sense! Or that it would have survived a slightly different crash,
etc.
But it is an existence proof, and existence proofs can have enormous power.
For many years, nobody believed that it was possible to run a four-minute
mile. 46 days after the existence proof, someone else did it too.
I think your example shows why Jerry's experience doesn't tell us very much.
Your "existence proof" shows quantitative performance. You didn't just say
that "someone ran", you said that someone ran a four-minute mile. So, there
is some numerical information in that anecdote that makes it useful and adds
to our knowledge.
We don't know how fast the EWoody was travelling when it hit the other car,
and how " hard" a target the other car was. ( I don't remember reading about
the speed in Jerry's original post, so I'm assuming he doesn't know)
If Jerry ran into a brick wall at 32 MPH, for example, and was uninjured,
that would also be anecdotal, but it would tell us something useful about
the EWoody's crashworthiness.
As it stands, all we know from Jerry's experience is that a homebuilt
wood/epoxy vehicle can survive an accident, not kill any occupants, and be
repairable. That was obviously true even with no proof. My bicycle is
capable of that, also.
To understand more we need to know the specific conditions of the accident,
including the g forces Jerry sustained, and the damage to his car.
That would still not take the place of comprehensive crash testing, but it
would give us some useful indication of his EV's crashworthiness in a
frontal crash.
I don't mean to belittle Jerry's work or his claim. But, without good data,
that particular crash just doesn't tell us much.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
The average US Credit Score is 675. The cost to see yours: $0 by Experian.
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--- Begin Message ---
HI-
After I reread my reply to Victor's message I realized that I had not
answered
his question.The voltage is measured as it leaves the battery pack. Usually
the
rough rule of thumb for lead acid is nominal pack V. 13/12=~ measured V.
The nominal voltage is used to determine voltage class.FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 3/1/2007 10:40:17 AM
> Subject: Re: EV competition classification question
>
> I can comment on the "historical" perspective on voltage divisions,
> but the present NEDRA tech director, Ken Koch, would be the person
> that would have to make any official ruling.
>
> Also, Victor never actually races anything, so this is just an
> intellectual exercise. :-)
>
> >>>>>>>>> From the historical perspective: <<<<<<<
>
> Capacitors are the same as batteries if they are charged up before
> you come to the starting line. They are storing electrical energy,
> just like a battery, so they count just like a battery.
>
> After the juice leaves the battery pack ("energy storage system"),
> you can do whatever you want to the voltage and current with your
electronics.
>
> No one has tried charging a capacitor bank from the battery pack
> during the race itself and put it in series with the battery pack.
> From the historical perspective, this would be OK to do, but since
> it has never been attempted, there is no precedent. It is an
> interesting approach. You would have to have some way to show that
> the caps are really at zero volts before you go on the track, I would
> think. (See below, "Why folks don't do this")
>
> >>> Why the rules are set up like this <<<
>
> It all becomes a matter of fair and simple inspection, if you think
> about it. You can inspect the batteries (or energy storage system)
> with a voltmeter (and follow the wiring with your eyes) and know how
> to classify the car. Once you are inside the electronics, there is no
> way for the inspector to know what the voltage will become. If you
> were to attempt to regulate the peak voltage inside the electronics
> system, folks would figure a way to make it appear that the voltage
> was less than it really was on the track. Then only cheaters would
> win. It is best to not attempt to regulate something you cannot
> fairly and easily inspect.
>
> >>> Why folks don't do this all the time <<<
>
> What you are forgetting is that the DC-DC converter (or creative
> uncharged capacitor bank) needed to boost the voltage will have
> weight and will be expensive. If you do the engineering analysis, you
> will likely discover that it will be cheaper to take the high-voltage
> record with a high-voltage battery pack than it will be to take the
> low-voltage record with the DC-DC converter. The weight and
> efficiency penalty of the DC-DC converter will likely make it more
> difficult to take a record from a well-designed low-voltage car.
>
> You will be going a lot faster if you spend the money taking the
> high-voltage record instead of spending it to take the low-voltage
> record. It is more fun to go faster. :-)
>
> A transmission serves much the same function as the DC-DC converter
> you are proposing, by the way.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 08:49 PM 2/28/2007, you wrote:
> >Rod, you're perhaps the most qualifying to answer, but
> >Bill Dennis John or others who know, please chime in:
> >
> >I want to ask about classifying EVs for any
> >competition in general and [drag] racing in particular.
> >As I understand currently among some other dividing in classes
> >parameters main one is traction battery voltage.
> >
> >My question is: is it battery itself voltage or the
> >voltage applied to the drive system?
> >
> >Consider: If I have powerful 480V battery I
> >can reconfigure it to, say, 48V one still retaining
> >its total power (10x amps).
> >
> >Now I DC-DC it back to 480VDC and apply that to the drive
> >to get obvious advantage of 480V performance. Am I
> >still considered to be in 48V class because I truly have
> >48V battery?
> >
> >I'm not sure if competing with such config providing real 480V
> >performance with any "normal" 48V-straight-to-the-controller
> >systems is very fair.
> >
> >Scenario 2: I have only 200V battery and charge 200V worth of
> >ultracaps with isolated DC-DC. Ulsracaps are in series
> >with main 200V pack, so my system is seeing 400V most of the way
> >down the track. Caps are not considered battery, (I could
> >use powerful isolated DC-DC to add its output to the battery
> >itself, no caps). Am I still in 200V class?
> >
> >Any thoughts on this and rules in place?
> >
> >Thanks for insight,
> >
> >Victor
>
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--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> If you are 'only' considering the dollars invested to increase
> the performance over your friend's stock diesel truck's regular
> performance (and don't include the cost of the stock vehicle)
> on one side of the argument, it is unfair to then consider the
> 'entire cost' that has been put into White Zombie, then label
> all that cost, 'cost of performance mods'. My point...a regular
> conversion of White Zombie would be, say a 156V system, with
> 13 Optimas, a Z1K, and the tranny and clutch. That's about $8-$9k
> including adapter costs, metal work for battery boxes, etc. This
> is what a non-performance type White Zombie would be. Now,
> subtract that $9k from $18k and it leaves $9k in 'mods' to raise
> the performance level to where it's at.
I have to concede that this is a good argument (and one that occurred to
me as I walked home from dropping my son off at school this morning).
However, you didn't start with an electric Datsun and modify it to its
present level; you started with an ICE Datsun and modded it to the tune
of $18K, not $9K. So, I remain convinced that the fair comparison is
with an ICE racer who invests on the order of $18K in mods to raise the
performance of his vehicle.
A "regular" conversion for *you* may certainly be 156V of YTs, a Z1K,
etc., but a more realistic "regular" conversion of an 'econobox'
(classic econobox, but still ;^) such as this would be a 1221B and
96-120V of floodeds driving a 6.7 or maybe an 8" ADC.
Your argument is akin to me suggesting that a fair comparison would be
for me to buy a built-up 9-second ICE car as by 'base' vehicle, and then
slap a $2 sticker on it and claim that I was able to put together a
quicker ICE car than the Zombie for only $2 in mods! ;^>
> Additionally, as those who come watch Tim and I race will attest to,
> many, many of the cars we race against and beat, are gutted
> shells with full racing slicks, super built motors, etc. Several hot
> Honda guys that we beat often, have gutted cars with $25k dumped
> into them. Same goes for some of the classic muscle car guys, too.
I really can't speak to the cars you compete against, all I can state is
that I *know* my buddy has invested well under the $18-25K you are
talking about and quite likely less than the $9k 'premium' for the
'Zombie's performance mods over a 'regular' conversion and has run
"similar" times to the 'Zombie on street tires, with traction problems.
> We show up with about $9k in performance mods (over a stock EV
conversion)
> and without the benefit of 60+ years of ICE racing and hotrod
> performance parts availability, clean their clocks with about
> half the dollar investment, using a technology that's in its infancy.
This may be where we have to agree to disagree. There is nothing in its
infancy about DC electric cars, or the racing of them: the technology
has been around and raced for about the same amount of time as ICEs.
EV racers most certainly *do* have the benefit of 60+ years of ICE drag
racing and hotrod performance parts availability. No, they can't take
advantage of the performance parts related to the ICE, but they most
certainly benefit from the drivetrain and suspension performance parts
that evolved out of 60+ years of ICE racing. The Powerglide in the
Maniac Mazda, the Dutchman street/strip Ford 9" rear end with detroit
locker in the Zombie, the traction bars on the 'Zombie, DOT (or not)
legal drag tires (including the wrinkle-walls on the Maniac Mazda), etc.
are all examples of ways that EV racers benefit from the ICE racers
before them.
What holds true for ICE and EV racers alike is that making the power is
only half the story; getting that power to the ground is what matters.
There is little difference in the ease of making power between EV and
ICE racers: the EVer buys an off-the-shelf Z2K, off-the-shelf batteries,
and (largely) off-the-shelf motors, just as the ICE racer buys
off-the-shelf performance parts to mod their engines.
> I had to laugh when you called my 1200 a 'purpose-built drag racer,
> stripped to a minimum of creature comforts, etc.' Let's look at this:
My comment was in the context of comparing the 'Zombie to my friend's
mid-12-second daily driver, complete with all the modern creature
comforts people tend to expect, such as a stereo, heat, A/C, power
windows, power brakes, power steering, as well as such other features as
airbags, a full interior, seating for 5, etc.
Stock 1200s came with heaters, didn't they? They also came with
alternators and reverse gear, but it is only recently that you got a
DC/DC and reverse capability installed. (John, you know I'm just
yanking your chain a bit here.)
> Stock 1200s had no carpets...White Zombie has full carpets
> that I added. Stock 1200s never came with sunroofs...I
> added that, too.
I haven't seen the 'Zombie in person for a while; last time I had a good
look at it, it had no carpets, no sunroof, no back seat; it may have had
a headliner and door panels, but I couldn't swear to it.
Don't get me wrong, even then it was immaculate and one could easily
have eaten off its floor.
> You call that purpose-built stripped to a minimum?
No, not "to a minimum". I still call it purpose-built; what is it's
primary purpose, John? From where I sit, it sure looks like a car built
for the purpose of being a street legal drag racer, not a daily driver,
and not a trailer queen race-only car.
> doesn't look anything like a purpose-built stripped racer.
Huh? Dressing up the interior doesn't hide the race-screaming exterior
covered with sponsor decals, etc.! Likewise, adding some carpet doesn't
undo the removal of the back seat, which *does* still count as
'stripping' the car, whether it happens to be stripping that often
occurs on conversion to electric regardless of the performance level or
not.
No, it isn't a completely gutted shell, but there is no mistaking the
'Zombie for an innocent daily driver either.
Cheers,
Roger.
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