EV Digest 6504
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: lepton oxygen license plate holder
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Freedom EV Questions And a few answers.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: [EV] RE: Batt resurrecting
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) swamp cooled EV?
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Woes
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Nicad update and PFC charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Jim Husted's amazing motor restoration
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Battery Woes
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tango lane splitting
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) electric power newbie
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Todd & while we are at it is there any way to adjust the headlight?
Mine is pointed up too high. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Kollin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: lepton oxygen license plate
> > I had the same problem. I made a plastic plate with both screw patterns
and
> > bolted it on. I then cought the plate with my pant leg and it broke
off.
> > I'm Bcc ing Todd. Do you carry license plate holders for the Lepton
> > Todd???? Please reply to the Zappy list or me. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >
>
>
> At Electric Motorsport we use the bottom two holes of the Oxygen Leptons
> stock plate mount which is on the fender. This requires drilling two new
> holes on the bottom of the moped plate. It is a good fit and even has a
> lic. plate light.
>
> TK
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: Freedom EV Questions
> If someone wants to post the long story they can. The short story is that
> they have an original Sunrise mold.
>
> BTW - the Freedom EV and Sunrise are two different projects being taken on
> by two different people on the list, although they do help each other out.
>
> damon
> Hi Damon an' EVerybody;
OK I'll take a stab at it, the Freedom/Sunrise Story. The Freedom got
started about 3 years ago when GM killed the EV-1 and Jerry Dycus stepped up
to the plate and said that he was going to DO something. Remember the movie
years ago " I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore? I think
it was "Network"or something like that. He had been running the E woody, or
"Lumbergini"The grandpa of the Freedom EV. Oh it isn't much to look at
nowadaze, sorta tired, neglected. But if you climb in, and check out the
artfully done laminated roll bar and other major parts, structure wise, it's
a thing of beauty. I hope when Jerry gets rich he'll restore the "Gini and
have it on display inside, ready for a nostalgia run, as needed.It will be a
part of EV history.
Jerry tried with modest success, the EV construction(I think? ) Group on
Yahoo, to raise a bit of startup cash. By subscribing, at 20 bux a month,
you would have "loan" going to jerry,to put towards YOUR Freedom, when it
came to pass. For about the price of a meal, without drinks, at a nice
restaurant, YOU could be funding, through Yahell, the startup" Dycus
Enterprises" I think he calls the newborn outfit?Having met Jerry, and know
how far he goes with a buck. Nothing spent friviously at his shop!For the
price of a decent used car he could actually build the hardware to produce
the Freedom. I went down to Tampa and tried to give him a hand in the heavy
lifting dept, and several grand to keep it going.OK name any OTHER listers
actually DOING something like this? Lee, I'll get to YOU in a minute<g>!Oh
we talk alot, me too, but to go out in the yard or shop and design a
vehicle, I didn't say car, because the Freedom flies under the radar as a
"Car" It is, technically, a Bike, in the eyes of most State DMV's. So it
runs under different rules. An Inclosed Motorcycle, if you will. Safe? Yeah,
as safe as the nut behind the steering wheel, the Driver, like any other car
out there.We have been argueing Freedom's safety on an endless thread here.
I'll put my two watts out, here: It is a Hekova lot safer in todaze traffic,
than a bike! Strapped in with a good seatbelt harness, airbags, maybe? You
will be bounced away by a collision, because of it's robust construction.
Like the Tango it will have a darn low centre of gravity, should handle
great. I feel that Jerry has something here, and have spotted him money as
well as several other Listers. You know who you are and I thank you.Jerry
has worked long and hard with the Freedom concept. No it wasn't running for
BBB and he wasn't gunna bring it over. On the train down, I talked him into
bringing it over no matter what, to show progress. Both Jerry and I have
build ground up EV's and We KNOW how much WORK, details, details, details!OK
go out in your garage and build just a working DOOR, that latches tightly,
has all the window raising mechanism, doesn't leak, closes with a nice
'Thunk" Doesn't weigh as much as a train door! Report back to me in a few
daze or week!Told ya! It isn't easy. Lets get into the "easy" stuff; front
suspension, rear suspension. the SHAPE of the body, so two full size
galootes like me can get IN the damn car. Citicar and Sparrow? Flunked!I
didn't get in a Sparrow, I put it on!You can't take your significent other,
ether. But A Freedom, Yeah, Lee an' climbed in the temp front seat, no
problem.AND bring home a shitload of groceries, in back! Bruce Parmenter and
I could go in Freedom, in reasonable comfort. Bruce is bigger than me.But we
CHECKED this out when Lee and I were down in Tampa in Oct.Mark Hastings,
another bug guy fits in Freedom, too. He has stepped up and ordered one,
already.I know a 3 wheeler isn't an easy sell, most guys , say at the RR
where I worked, collectively shook their heads, but that crowd, the whole
parking lot stuffed full of hugh trux and SUV's it isn't gunna be an easy
sell, til they spend a good part of their paycheck to fillitup!But to buy a
Frredom, you are making a STATEMENT as well as a damn economical
transportation device. YOU are DOING something toward breaking the
stranglehold Big Oil is holding the American Sheeple hostage.
Part two; A couple years ago a Sunrise body appeared on E bay. NOT a
running car, a simple SHELL of a body. Jerry hit me up and said we should GO
for it. OK I went off the deep end and said I'll buy it and bring it down to
my place in CT if we won. Talk about Hell on line; as the deadlinre
approached the sniping bidding was like a night in Bagdad!EVery rise was in
minite incriments. As it got going, EVer have THIS happen when your hot and
heavy on E bay they, E bay breaks in and demands a credit card No.While your
fucking around with THIS, the bids are flying around you, and ya miss out!!!
But Jerry, I think won, it had gone to 5600bux. OK I sez, I'll go up to
Solectria, where it was, well, actually at James Worden's home, as
Solectria, and the Sunrise dream died when Solectria merged with Azure
Technology. Borrowed my kid's Ford F250 Diseasel flatbed and car trailer,
for the run to Boston, and meeting James W. What a facinating guy. He , too,
is a RR buff, has built a battery powerd trolley, has several hundred feet
of track to run it on. Had I not been retired from Amtrak, I could have
given him all the engine trips he coulda been able to stand!I have offered
him that as I still have plenty of engineer friends at the RR, when he has
the time. Pulled in to Solectria's shop in Woburn, to load Sunrise, and
there was a trashed, vandalized Force, dead in the lot. Asked if it was
looking for a loving home. Make a long story short I rolled out of there wit
h thre Force on the trailer and the featherlite Sunrise body on the flatbed.
Hesaded down the freeway in the wheee hours of the AM. Gees! It seems so
sluggish? pulled over to check things out, and had a trailer flat, about 10
miles ago!Tire gone, rim pounded down like a head of colliflour!Embarrising,
I clatter along, about 15 mph,Around a "Hiding" in the breakdown lane state
cop shooting for speeders! Figured he woulda come to life flashing lights
and all, no......nothing. No law against killing your rims, I guess? Pulled
down the ramp and found a lit parking lot. Yeah! Easy, just change the tire?
Wrong, you need a decent JACK, a WRENCH to undo the godamn rusty lug nuts. I
sorta had that, Hammer on a too tight socket as the lugs were rounded off
already, shitty old trailer. A few hours later I was ready to roll, YES,
Virginia, I had a spare! Made it home by the dawn's early light!
OK Car, Sunrise is not exactly to Jerry's in Tampa. Jerry sez he'll come
up and pick it up. Of course it had to be the shittiest week, weather wise.
Jerry hitched a cute little Harbor Fright trailer to his Suzuki 250cc I
think motorcycle and heads out on the highway, on the trailer was a plywood
box,resembling a coffin, for shelter on the road when he pulls off from
exhaustion! Daze later I get a call from Jerry."I'm in Newark train station"
The bike said' Saranaya"in beautiful down town Newark NJ, in SIGHT of the
Empire State Bldg! The local Cummins Diseasel Truck place guyz took pity on
him, and let him put his rig inside the fenced truck area. This was on Fri
afternoon. The Cummins Guyz took him over to the train in Newark. OK Jerry,
a Long shot, go to Penn Station, hang 'til they call a train to Boston,They
run almost hourly, go down stairs to the train's side, find the Conductor,
tell him you know me, and he MIGHT carry you free? Good Luck!Two hours later
he calls from New Haven, I go down and collect him, by Prius, tired but
happy. Next project was to call James Worden, I wanted Jerry and James to
CONNECT, Get Jerry to meet a RUNNING Sunrise. And to see James's Solectria
EV collection. James has kept one example of all the cars he has built since
day one. Some day his old New England barn will be an EVer's shrine. And
possably in the national register of historical places or what ever they
call that?Bottom line, the torch was passed to us. I felt humbled and
honored.Oh, the Suzuki bike? It died a firey death in Tomy Ascrizzi's famous
Dump Truck fire.Melted to a shapeless glob, of scrap!
To keep Jerry on the move I had an old 81 Diseasel Rabbit I was GIVEN
years ago with 238 k on the busted odometer. I saved it's life, it was going
to the junkyard when the guy gave it to me. It served my older kid as a
college car, he treated it to new tires and injectors, I threw in a couple
rear shocks when the old ones froze up. A few new batteries, and that is
all, never fixed the odometer. So when Jerry arrived it was in my " Reserve
Fleet" out in the shed, stored servicable as they say at Amtrak. So a quick
bolt on trailer hitch and Jerry was ready to go, Rabbit entering a new life.
Jerry made it home in about two daze, averaging 38 MPH. Rabbit still serves
Jerry faithfully, you might have met it at BBB, still clattering along with
well over 300k on the clock!
OK Fast forward to last Oct; Lee Hart called me and asked if I minded,
Hell! I was delighted! that HE took over the Sunrise project as he had a guy
interested in doing it. Jerry was cool, he was up to his ears in the Freedom
Project, still is. So Lee built a beautiful flatbed trailer specificly built
to fit the Sunrise body> He was headed from Sartell MN to Tampa to collect
the body. I call him and say do ya need a hand with thre driving. And what
Lister wouldn't like to spend several days with Lee. anyhow? I sez, lets
meet up at Warfield Electric, gotta meet Jerry Warfield, too.Lee and Jerry
hit it off great. I feel that I have a small, but Important part to CONNECT
EV guyz. Get ideas shared, etc.This last few years it has been big time in
this dept!Anyhow we were OFF to tampa, fairly uneventfull trip til I put
Lee's Eurovan VW over a curb rail into a rest area parking lot. Scraping up
the Van's aluninum Oil pan, as our oil dripped away in the dark Georgian
pull off. Oh this is great, tear up his van, strand us 400 miles short of
Tampa. Lee, like the rest of us carried a toolbox fiull of stuff, so I found
a quarter inch selftapping sheet metal screw I forced into the cracked pan,
with a slice of heat shrink tubing for a "washer"AAA came out and brought us
5 quarts of oil and we were on the was, stopping every 50 miles to check for
leeks. None, It held til we had Brandon VW pull the pan and we had it Tig
welded, Aluminun pan, they don't sell Eurovans in FLA so a new one wasn't in
the parts dept.Calling all over the Yello Pages we found a guy that came
over to our Motel with his welding truck and FIXED it while we waited! Back
to the VW place and it was buttoned up, and we were ready to load Sunrise
and be on our way. Lee didn't have much time, what time we had was used up
fixing the damaged, Van. Sorry, Lee, again, on THAT one.I hope the check I
left covered it?!
Anyhow, a uneventful trip back, it's a long godamn drive fron Tampa to
St Cloud, MN to Tim Medeck's car shop, where Sunrise is to rise again. What
we bought is/ was sorta like those Revell plastic car kits we all had as
kids, thousands of years ago. The Body, and you glued it to the platform
chassis. It had the mount places for the Metro suspension they had kit
bashed to fit the wider Sunrise. We brainstormed here. Front wheel drive
verses rear wheel, was the biggy. Going with Rear wheel drive, finding
Thunderbird rear independent suspension "cradle", for want of a better term,
to be bolted to the tubular, I think, frame, in which the 'glas platform
will fit over. Looks like the Ford Front end can be used, too. Lee. like
Jerry, wants to use as many common parts, from production cars, as
possable.You MAY want to buy a certain year T'bird for you running gear? As
a kit car, for the mechanicly inspired, guyz can finish it to their desire,
have Harvey Coachworks do it for you. IF we can come up with a kit in
progress sort of thing, buying parts as needed, in order of assembly. A
chassis would be shipped out on a 4x10 foot pallot on a truck. Or pick it up
yourself at the shop. We are going with a direct drive Warp 9" motor I
shipped out last month and my Zilla for the controller. IF the chassis is up
and rolling this summer we'll be doing well.Doors? Lee thinks we could use a
production door and "Re-skin " it to the body , neatly sidestepping building
from scratch. We only need 2 as it is a 2 door sedan.
OK that's a sloppy summery of our venture. Feel free to hit my up with
Questions. With all of this
going on, on two fronts I'm not very
hot on another conversion. The'll do for now.So correct or add to all this
if ya will, Lee.We have been bringing it up on the List of late.
Thanks for sticking it out with me, hope all the above babble will fil
ya in on our projects.Gunna have to write a "Lost Cord" like adventure book
about all this<g>!
It's late now, signin' off. Seeya
Bob
>
> >From: Todd Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Freedom EV Questions
> >Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 14:12:23 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >A few questions have been nagging at me as I've watched the FreedomEV
> >discussions. Maybe Jerry can help with answers. Anyway,
> >
> > 1st How did you get a Solectria Sunrise? I think there were only
about
> >5 made total.
> >
> > 2nd, what does Azure Dynamics think of your project? They've got 19
> >patents and probably plenty of Trademarks, and they might be trying
still
> >to get a major partner to put Sunrise in production.
> >
> > 3rd, How the heck can you duplicate the high-tech body that they
> >developed? They spent millions figuring out how to make that composite
> >body and I don't understand how an individual could duplicate that
effort.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Todd Martin
> > Owner, 1997 Solectria Force
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Never miss an email again!
> >Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just checked my latest attempt at an old battery and, like many
other gel cells, it will first show 0 Amps at any voltage, then
S-l-o-w-l-y the current is rising until it hits the amp limit
and voltage starts dropping.
After a while in current limit, the voltage may have dropped as
low as 7V (on a 12V battery) and cranking the current up will
also bring the voltage up quickly: 10mA 7V, 100mA 13V and then
suddenly without warning, the current goes to zero again.
I have seen this often on old Gel cells - it seems they are
almost litterally cooked and any decent current will immediately
cause them to malfunction. Oh well. They had a 93 date stamped in
them, so what would you expect.
Another set of 12V 12Ah was still well above 12V and could deliver
40A for a few minutes before reaching 10.5V so that are still
very healthy ones, but they are only 4 years old.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eduardo Kaftanski
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 6:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EV] RE: Batt resurrecting
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 04:39:51PM -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
> This batt is showing signs of life, it may come back.
after a couple of hours its still on 10 volts while charging and less than 7
when off the charger. dead, i think.
i'll move on to the next battery. i only need 4 good ones and I have 20 to
play with :)
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so this is probably a dumb idea but has anyone ever thought about
evaporative cooling for EV's? For those not familiar, in the SW US
and other places where humidity is very low (<10%) you can get an
amazing amount of cooling (30 deg or more) just out of blowing air
across a wet pad. This has a big advantage over AC in terms of
energy usage, as its basically just a small pump to keep the pads wet
and a blower fan. In an EV I would even think you could forgo the
fan and just use forced outside air. The downside of course is you
have to carry around a small tank of water, and find a way to expose
a fairly large pad area to your incoming fresh air stream.
Trying to figure out how to not have to bog my conversion down with
an AC compressor in our 115 deg summers :-)
Rob
Phoenix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm testing actually a LA50-12-4
Test 1 (simple equalisation of a poor 48V string) is occuring
7 years old stored uncharged since 2006 AGM 12V7Ah, 4 in serie for 48V7Ah
Checked individual Voltage before (Fluke 189, 20°C room temp)
11,37
12,42
12,59
12,21
Test start 3/03/2007, 12H16 (green LED flashing every 5 sec > ok)
Surface voltage at 12H35:
12,35
12,36
12,46
12,36
Surface voltage at 13H20:
Same !
when they will be all at same voltage (it should happen one day...) or if
im' bored to wait: end of test 1
Next i'm thinking is:
Test 2 (simple equalisation of a 48V string with 1 weak battery): charging
individually all except one (test 1 strongest one) connect batteq and check
what happen
...
if you have torture test procedures ideas i would be pleased to implement
them.
I use 7Ah because i have no time to test on 50Ah(scooter) nor bigger but we
just have to make the math. for bigger batteries ;^)
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Woes
Matt Kenigson wrote:
So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch
for Mick? ;)
We debated this topic a few months ago. The BattEQ is based on the flying
capacitor circuit -- it switches a capacitor across one battery to charge
to its voltage, then switches it to an adjacent battery to
charge/discharge to its voltage. In this way, it balances by transferring
charge between batteries.
When I tried this on my own, I found that this technique worked but was
not very effective. The balancing current was very low, and the efficiency
was low.
I have not tried Mick's BattEQ, and so can't say if it is any different or
better than the circuit I tried. I did offer to test some, and Mick was
willing to help; but then I've gotten swamped with work and wasn't able to
actually do it.
If someone has a BattEQ and is willing to do some testing, I think it
would be very useful.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Rob&Amy Smith
> ...has anyone ever thought about evaporative cooling for EV's?
Sure; it's been discussed many times. People have even used it. From their
comments, I gather that it works, but not as well as true air conditioning.
Cooling humans is a complicated process. It's not just temperature; we are also
sensitive to humidity, wind, sun, and other physiological and psychological
factors.
For instance, an evaporative "swamp" cooler cools the air but raises its
humidity. The cooler air makes you feel more comfortable, but the increased
humidity makes you less comfortable. Which effect predominates depends on the
precise temperature and humidity, and on the individual (some like the humid
air; others find it makes them sweaty).
It would be interesting to find a detailed study on "what makes a person feel
comfortable". I've seen some older ones, done when energy was cheap, whose goal
was simply to maximize comfort with the least expensive equipment. But now, it
would be good to know what combination of temperature, humidity, wind, shade,
and other factors would make a person feel the "coolest" with the least energy
usage.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/3/2007 9:00:14 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Sure; it's been discussed many times. People have even used it. From their
comments, I gather that it works, but not as well as true air conditioning.
Many years
ago,
I used to see cars with a swamp cooler device attached at the passanger
window. The slipstream went through some sort of damped screen and into the
interior.
May still available through JC Whitney?
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The good news is my truck is not peak detecting the nicad cells so the
knee is not being used for charging. But the knee does accelerate when
constant current is stopped and constant voltage begins.
I also count amp hours with the Emeter and because everything is
working perfectly it shows me an overcharge of .24kwhrs nearly every
time the charger shuts off. It would be nice to have this integrated
into the charger.
There is an occasional flaw in the charger. It won't get to 400v
sometimes. It will often get stuck at 389v. This keeps the current up
to maybe one amp. The Emeter will consequently show an overcharge of 2
kwhrs. Not a lot of overcharge on a 40-50ah cell. The first couple
times I saw this, I opened the pack and checked all of the cell
voltages. They were fine. If I just restart the charger it then will
quickly peak at 400v. This whole process simulates cells going bad and
can create an overcharge condition for the rest of the pack.
Fortunately low current is involved so nothing gets toasted. This is
one reason I need to get a watchdog timer on the charger so that it
can't cook the pack in the event of a failure. I have not figured out
if there is a variable in software for this yet. So it may have to be
an external timer.
While not the ideal setup it sure is nice to have enough adjustment in
the factory charger to be able to change battery chemistry's.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In my earlier post I described charging SAFT STM-180
> batteries used in the Dodge TEVan. I also counted
> amp*hours and did an overcharge after the voltage peak
> I observed (every time in fact). Two things should be
> noted, even if I didn't see the voltage peak I would
> still know something was wrong by counting Amp*hours.
> 2. I have very little experience with BB600 cells,
> although I do own about 100 Cells (I did have more,
> but sold some to people on this list). So, my
> experience with voltage peak does not necessarily mean
> it will be reliable and repeatable with the BB600
> cells.
> I have more testing to do before I can make that
> observation. And as Lee and David point out this
> voltage peak is less likely to be seen as the number
> of series cells increases.
> Rod
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Cor van de Water wrote:
> > > Mike *is* running 252 BB600 NiCds in a single
> > string. He has
> > > over 3000 miles on them since installing them in
> > his truck.
> >
> > As Mike's and Rod Hower's experiences point out, the
> > voltage peak method
> > can still work with long strings. It's just that as
> > the number of cells
> > increases, the chances of it failing to work get
> > larger.
> >
> > It works best when the cells are all fairly well
> > matched, at the same
> > states of charge, and the same temperature. The more
> > you deviate from
> > these conditions, the more likely it is that the
> > charger will miss the
> > voltage peak due to different cells peaking at
> > different times.
> >
> > One saving grace is that flooded nicads are fairly
> > tolerant of charging
> > abuse. They will survive overcharging that would
> > destroy other types of
> > batteries.
> >
> > As David Roden stated, amphour counting is a more
> > reliable indicator for
> > long strings of nicads.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Mike Phillips
> The good news is my truck is not peak detecting the nicad cells so the
> knee is not being used for charging. But the knee does accelerate when
> constant current is stopped and constant voltage begins.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Does "knee" mean the voltage peak that occurs
with constant current charging of nicads? If so, it won't exist during constant
voltage charging because (by definition) the voltage is fixed.
> I also count amp hours with the Emeter and because everything is
> working perfectly it shows me an overcharge of .24kwhrs nearly every
> time the charger shuts off. It would be nice to have this integrated
> into the charger.
>
> There is an occasional flaw in the charger. It won't get to 400v
> sometimes. It will often get stuck at 389v. This keeps the current up
> to maybe one amp. The Emeter will consequently show an overcharge
> of 2 kwhrs... This is one reason I need to get a watchdog timer on the
> charger so that it can't cook the pack in the event of a failure.
Yes; I'd add a mechanical timer if nothing else, just in case. It's good to
have a backup system in case the charger screws up, a cell fails, the
temperature is unusually hot that day, etc. Otherwise, one "little" failure can
destroy an expensive battery pack!
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.killacycle.com/photos/motor-details/
> I put up a few more of Jim's pictures of my motor as
> it is going through the rebuilding process.
> You MUST look at the "before" and "after" pictures
> near the end. It
> is hard to believe it is actually the same motor.
Hey Bill, all
First off thanks for the kind words. This motor
really is a great before and after series of pictures
showing what a little love can do to a slightly
abused... I mean used motor 8^o. I wanted to let
everyone know I put up the whole series at my site and
a new blog on it. I also noticed I didn't have a
Killacycle link so fixed that as well. I also added a
YouTube link to help funnel you some more clicks (if
that's possible, hehe).
Anyway sorry it's less than timely, but maybe just in
time to get people excited about Killacycle's up and
coming race at the end of this month, I believe down
in Arizona?? With the new spring gaurds, CE plate
window sheilds (I noticed you installed), and a spare
motor Bill will be going there fully prepared for some
serious playing 8^)
Being that I can only upgrade damages that I see
occuring I saw new falures (mostly the Nomex field
paper burninga)(and the new spring gaurds mod) and
I'll be eagerly waiting to see how everything does
this next time out. Anyway on top of it just flat out
being an honor to work with the racers thay are my R&D
department. I hope you all enjoy the pics, they can
be found here at my site for those interested.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Vehicle Discussion List member Matt Kenigson said:
"So, who on the list has used these BattEQ balancers? Who can vouch for
Mick? ;) Any gotchas other than price?"
[Mick says:] I have made no BattEQ(TM) sales to EVDL members so far. I did
help a non-member balance his 96 volt electric vehicle last fall. I have
just asked him to join the EVDL and report candidly on his experience. I
hope we will see his report soon but it's up to him. This balancer
installation was done at time of original conversion so there won't be a
dramatic report of increased driving range, and there hasn't been enough
time for a report of increased battery lifetime.
Mick says: Most of my background is in the solar-electric world where I have
made a number of BattEQ sales plus some interesting test results. I've been
in the backyard energy business over 20 years and have a good reputation
which could be confirmed by doing a google for "mick abraham" + solar. I
sell retail to end users and I can also sell BattEQ wholesale to bona-fide
technicians in the alternative energy and electric vehicle fields.
[Mick says:] The skepticism expressed on the List does not frighten me; I
too have become somewhat jaded about the "next big thing". I simply ask that
the group remain open minded and not dismiss BattEQ based on theory or
speculation. It's fairly easy to do some testing to see if it meets the
claims or not, and I extend a 30 day return privilege on all BattEQ sales.
(15% restock fee plus shipping, but other than that it's a free trial.) I
have had no returns so far and no product failures so far.
Philippe Borges said that he has an LA-50 device for experimentation. This
was not purchased from me, but I'm all for testing. The LA-50 2 channel unit
is particularly appropriate for head to head comparison with the
PowerCheq(TM) from powerdesigners.com
Philippe: I developed some suggested test procedures for that unit as part
of my earlier conversation with Lee Hart. If you'd like to see that
document, contact me off list. I would be pleased to discuss testing
methodology with other EVDL members on list or off.
Bear in mind that some trial methods may not fairly show the BattEQ benefit,
and I will try to point those out if I see them. BattEQ is not a cure for
cancer and I'm trying to keep my enthusiasm in check. Based on what I've
seen, however, this technology deserves close investigation by people who
are seeking relief from the battery blues.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, GoldPeak is producing their 30Ah NiMH cell under their Ovonics, now
Cobasys/Chevron license, and my understanding is that GoldPeak is the only
NiMH battery manufacturer to have such a permissive (grandfathered) license
allowing the production of large-format traction cells >10Ah for sale or use
in the North American market.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
Does anybody know whether or not Gold Peak is producing these NiMH cells
under license from Cobasys / Texaco?
Bruce
Charles Whalen wrote:
GoldPeak produces a 30Ah NiMH cell that Vectrix (www.vectrix.com) is
using
in its electric maxi-scooter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's called a wet t-shirt, very low implementation cost.
On Mar 3, 2007, at 2:03 AM, Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
Ok, so this is probably a dumb idea but has anyone ever thought
about evaporative cooling for EV's? For those not familiar, in the
SW US and other places where humidity is very low (<10%) you can
get an amazing amount of cooling (30 deg or more) just out of
blowing air across a wet pad. This has a big advantage over AC in
terms of energy usage, as its basically just a small pump to keep
the pads wet and a blower fan. In an EV I would even think you
could forgo the fan and just use forced outside air. The downside
of course is you have to carry around a small tank of water, and
find a way to expose a fairly large pad area to your incoming fresh
air stream.
Trying to figure out how to not have to bog my conversion down with
an AC compressor in our 115 deg summers :-)
Rob
Phoenix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tango can park on a 20% grade without tipping over. I am not sure how
may Gs that equals but tipping would be a problem without the batteries.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: Tango lane splitting
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 09:26:01AM -0800, Eric Poulsen wrote:
<..snip..>
HOWEVER, this particular discussion is certainly OT (despite the EV in
question), as the lane sharing / lane splitting issue applies equally if
the Tango was an ICE.
Could the Tango be an ICE?
Would the Tango even work with advanced batteries?
The Tango needs all that lead for ballast right?
The Tango is one of the best examples I've seen of taking the biggest
liability of PbA batteries and turning it into an advantage.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not impractical. The downsides are you can't recycle the air, it's
more humid and can tend to cause mildew, and you need a high airflow. I
suspect the normal ductwork in a car dash won't carry nearly enough
airflow to cool a vehicle, a different strategy is required. It will
also become less effective in humid environments. Not being able to
recycle the air brings in contamination problems since you're totally
working from outside air and collecting all the dust.
Another possibility is that an a/c unit will operate more effectively-
and more efficiently- the cooler the condensor coil is. It's possible
to swamp-cool the coil and boost the output of the system. However, I
suspect it's not all that great since home central a/c units are always
fighting to get more efficiency and more BTUs yet I have not seen such a
system being tried.
The pad type is very important. There's at least one company that mades
a special corregated paper-like evaporator that lets a lot of airflow
through but really does come through with a lot of evaporation. They
had one around 5 ft x 5 ft out in the open on a hot runway and it was
really nice to be even like 20 ft downwind of it. Wish I could remember
the name of the company.
Misting is possible but misting creates droplets of thousands of
molecules per droplet. This is distinctly different than evaporation
into vapor, which is always single molecules dissolved in air. Misting
does result in some evaporation but also a significant amount will
remain as droplets and make stuff damp as they fall out of the air and
stick to stuff, esp in an enclosed car. In a wide open space like a
porch, if the humidity is low and the temp high with a misting system
it's possible for the droplets to all evaporate completely before making
stuff wet.
Danny
Mark Dutko wrote:
It's called a wet t-shirt, very low implementation cost.
On Mar 3, 2007, at 2:03 AM, Rob&Amy Smith wrote:
Ok, so this is probably a dumb idea but has anyone ever thought
about evaporative cooling for EV's? For those not familiar, in the
SW US and other places where humidity is very low (<10%) you can get
an amazing amount of cooling (30 deg or more) just out of blowing
air across a wet pad. This has a big advantage over AC in terms of
energy usage, as its basically just a small pump to keep the pads
wet and a blower fan. In an EV I would even think you could forgo
the fan and just use forced outside air. The downside of course is
you have to carry around a small tank of water, and find a way to
expose a fairly large pad area to your incoming fresh air stream.
Trying to figure out how to not have to bog my conversion down with
an AC compressor in our 115 deg summers :-)
Rob
Phoenix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
they did at one time make a swamp cooler that fit on the passenger side window
my brother in law had one when I w2as about 10 - 12 . that would be about 46
years ago !!! don't know if they still make them
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob&Amy Smith<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 4:03 AM
Subject: swamp cooled EV?
Ok, so this is probably a dumb idea but has anyone ever thought about
evaporative cooling for EV's? For those not familiar, in the SW US
and other places where humidity is very low (<10%) you can get an
amazing amount of cooling (30 deg or more) just out of blowing air
across a wet pad. This has a big advantage over AC in terms of
energy usage, as its basically just a small pump to keep the pads wet
and a blower fan. In an EV I would even think you could forgo the
fan and just use forced outside air. The downside of course is you
have to carry around a small tank of water, and find a way to expose
a fairly large pad area to your incoming fresh air stream.
Trying to figure out how to not have to bog my conversion down with
an AC compressor in our 115 deg summers :-)
Rob
Phoenix
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The RT2 header is "connector Ized on the Mk2C.. for thermal run a way use,
The temp Comp is still a Diode on the PCB.
The Mk3 Digi regs have a header for a LM34 or the 3 wires that are needed to
support a LM34 on a cable.
Clearly the Mk3 X temp header is really meant for reading Temps on the
batteries to support a digital Temp comp function or to read the data, and
adjust the reg point setting on the fly.
This lets the software Jockies write thier own Temp Comp formulas. I am
not using this feature yet .. But I hope to get a start on it pretty soon.
The Basic formula would be ... X temp at greater than 120 F Reg preforms a
HOT REG shut down of the charger using the analog status line on the
RegBuss.
This would give the basic function needed.
Bruce????
When?
The battery post is not a really good place to measure battery temps, Cable
heating and resistance heating will raise the local temps. The Regs you are
talking about over heated the post and could age the nearest cell in a
accelerated way. Bypass regs make enough heat to hurt some batteries if you
stuff all the heat into the battery post.
This is why I have suffered with air cooled regs. The best place to sens
Thermal runaway and local pack temp would be half way up the center cell of
each battery. You would have to have a small cable that remotes the temp
sensor.
More spider webs inside a battery pack.
Yea thier is no other way.
It would be nice if Battery makers built in a temp sensor.. or a few of
them.
Note to LION BMS designer folks... install a temp sensor.. and allow the
outside world to use it.
All of them!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro.
Doing Rev 8 Power board test and eval today... I want 40 amps and no cut
backs!! and no cooked traces or over heated Didoes...I wonder where the weak
point is now....50 amps 60 amps???
Not bad for a 20 amp charger concept.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation
> David Roden writes:
> >
> > On 1 Mar 2007 at 7:20, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> >
> > > The Rudman Regs do have temperature compensation for the voltage set
> > > point. It does assume that the reg is at the same temperature as the
> > > battery it is monitoring. The surrounding air temperature may well
> > > be different.
> >
> > At one time (10 years ago?) there were some shunt regs available that
bolted
> > to a battery post. I think these may have been designed by Mark Hanson
> > (Mark please correct me if this is wrong). I don't think the old design
had
> > TC, but wouldn't the battery post be a better place to sense battery
temp
> > than the air around the battery?
>
> Yes, the post would be better. However, the Rudman Regs don't provide an
> easy way to move the temp sensor off of the PCB. Not that unsoldering the
> diode and remounting it to two wires is hard, but I'm keeping to a 'no
mods'
> approach as much as possible.
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all,
I'm starting to build a small electric propulsion system . I
have a 24V Westinghouse aircraft starter-generator which were sold by
Princess Auto of Winnipeg at one time. It is 8 pole series
wound,around 3 Kw I believe, so should be ample power for my
application.I haven't been able to get any specs on this machine so
I'm not sure if its rated for continuous use or not.Does anyone have
any info for this motor?I'm also not sure if drive will slow the motor
down to the 900 or so RPM it would like to run at.Maybe the controller
will take care of this .Can someone recommend a primer on motor
controllers.Is it possible to reverse this motor?.thanks...gary
--- End Message ---
