EV Digest 6525
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Learning more about electronics. WAS: Re: [Evtech] SCR's last orders
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: FWD friction
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: FWD friction
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Manual Transmission Rebuild
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: subaru
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor mods
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Voltmeter
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) geo metro couplers?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Voltmeter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Precharge Resistor Primer
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) RE: Precharge Resistor Primer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Voltmeter
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Voltmeter
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Need advice on Lee Hart's batt-bridge circuit
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
160 VDC 250A. The time-amp chart made these the best choice for 1000
battery amp possibility for I think 10 seconds.
They look like these EBAY 190064944007 a pair of these for a lower
volt conversion may be perfect.
Wow, great price!
I think this is the exact model I have.
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=1113
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1113&product_id=1451
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Cor wrote:
> I read somewhere that the reason for good specs in small package
> of the Czonka is the use of a specific gas inside the enclosure.
From: David Brandt
>Yes, they use hydrogen.
If memory serves, I think it was sulfur hexafluoride. Anyone have it written
down anywhere?
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could someone upload a sample of what this squeal sounds like? I'd
like to know if people are being picky or if it's something that
would drive me crazy or to the verge of embarrassment to have in my
own car. I've got server space to host it if someone sends me an
audio file. Or if someone has a youtube or other video up with this
sound, please point me to it.
I might add that all of the video clips that I have seen with Zilla
controllers in them also have a squeal. Bear with me, I am talking
about the tires squealing, but I haven't heard many electric cars in
"normal" operation. Anyone have any audio or video (preferably
inside) with normal operating sounds of an electric car with a zilla
or other controller? The only electric cars I've heard in normal
operation are the EV-1 (uber quiet until it was floored, and then all
i could hear was tire noise) and a couple of European aero things
that had a lot of body noise (shaking and amplification of the ground
being travelled over, but no system noise that I could tell).
Thanks in advance, Ian
On Mar 7, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Ev Performance (Robert Chew) wrote:
Earplugs??
On 08/03/07, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You could join the ranks of the John Waylands of the world or get
used to
it. As long as you have that setup it will squeel and there is
little you
can do about it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "rod" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:37 AM
Subject: Curtis 1231C squealing solution
> Does anyone on the list know how to disable the classic Curtis
"Squeal"?
> My controller works fine but the squeal is starting to get to me.
>
> Regards, Rod Dilkes
> www.dilkesmotors.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for the ref !! I went to ata and avionics b back in 1971 and always
wanted a refresher course you get rusty when you stay in the electric
construction field too long
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:06 AM
Subject: RE: Learning more about electronics. WAS: Re: [Evtech] SCR's last
orders
If you are interested in learning more about electronics the Navy's
NEETS modules are a great reference. Here is a link to all of them in
pdf form:
http://www.phy.davidson.edu/instrumentation/NEETS.htm<http://www.phy.davidson.edu/instrumentation/NEETS.htm>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 16:03
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Learning more about electronics. WAS: Re: [Evtech] SCR's last
orders
On 3/6/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> The gate-to-cathode input of an SCR behaves like the base-to-emitter
junction of an NPN transistor, i.e. like a forward-biased diode.
...and then the defromulator connects to the plendergast joint to
emulate a three-frip mertoblorg... ;)
Actually, it's starting to make a little sense to me. Thanks for
putting up with a newbie! I'm really enjoying learning more about
electronics. I guess I should really take some classes or get some
books and study up. My father-in-law still has his books from an old
famous mail order electronics course. Maybe I can borrow them from him.
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:01 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
rod wrote:
Does anyone on the list know how to disable the classic Curtis "Squeal"?
My controller works fine but the squeal is starting to get to me.
The Curtis -C version controllers start off at 1.5 KHz instead of 15
KHz. It makes the motor squeal, but it also starts off smoother. The
circuit change could be removed if you feel up to opening the
controller, but then you may get a starting "lurch" if you have a
high pack voltage and a big motor (like a 144v pack and ADC 9" motor).
The reason the C version came about, including the squeal, is that
some people were using the old B version (1221, not 1231) in
clutchless S10 trucks in fleets with untrained drivers that were
murdering the controllers by too much lugging at low speeds and high
current draw. So the low speed frequency was a matter of self-defense.
I never hear the squeal in forward motion because I accelerate
through it almost instantly. It IS audible backing out of a parking
space, but in that instance it serves as a useful pedestrian warning.
I hear a lot more "whining" on this list about the so-called whine
than I ever heard out of the controller.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
David Brandt writes:
> Disconnect the brake calipers and hang them oput of the way
> then try again. You will know for sure if it is the brakes,
> and how bad it is.
Will do.
> One thing that was probably different, though - you probably
> tried the ICE with the tranny in neutral. Did you do the
> same with the EV?
Yes, definitely apples-to-apples. Tried several combinations, but mentioned the
gearbox in neutral case as presumably the most comparable.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't Claudio have worn in the brakes by now?
Will using Auto transmission oil ruin the bearings in a manual transmission?
On 08/03/07, Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello David,
David Brandt writes:
> Disconnect the brake calipers and hang them oput of the way
> then try again. You will know for sure if it is the brakes,
> and how bad it is.
Will do.
> One thing that was probably different, though - you probably
> tried the ICE with the tranny in neutral. Did you do the
> same with the EV?
Yes, definitely apples-to-apples. Tried several combinations, but
mentioned the gearbox in neutral case as presumably the most comparable.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the lead Joseph. I assume you mean Ilsco Deox Oxide Inhibitor.
On their web page, Ilsco describes Deox's features as:
a.. Provides air-tight seal around conductor.
a.. Available in a variety of packages.
a.. Broad working temperature range.
a.. Conductor versatile.
a.. Prevents oxides from forming.
a.. Provides convenience of selecting the right size for the job.
a.. May be used from -30 F to 300 F, and on copper or aluminum conductors.
Says nothing about it being conductive. It sounds a bit like Noalox to me.
Have you tested it with an Ohm meter for conductivity? Is there any other
grease that is more conductive?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
> Try De-ox.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
>
>
> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
> >
> > I've tried testing the conductivity of Noalox and found it to not be
very
> > conductive at all.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > Tom Gocze wrote:
> > > It could be set up with some conductive grease for good
> > > contact and ease of use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds to me like you'd be better off to have the pro fix it,
it probably shouldn't cost too much, manuals are relatively easy to work
on, but there can always be gotchas. I repaired my 5-speed from my FWD
dodge years ago. You might just try it, and if it doesn't work out,
just replace it with another good one. The good news is its probably
easy to take back out if it doesn't work, and actually its easy to test
it outside the car with an electric motor. The hard part in an ICE is
taking the things in/out of the car with the ICE in the way.
Do you know how much the trans weighs? If not can you weigh it?
You might consider just not using it, and replacing it with a 70lb IRS
differential like I'm putting in the aspire hybrid and get a 1-speed
trans. If it saves a lot of weight might be worth it.
Jack
Mark Farver wrote:
So I pulled the MR2 transmission last weekend and set it off to a
transmission shop up here in Austin. They do not even have the tools to
open it, and they don't have the time to haul it to a shop that
specializes in manual transmissions. They asked me to come get it, and
gave me the name of the company (Pistole, in South Austin) that they
would usually sub the work out to.
The transmission has two problems, a bad 3rd gear syncro (much needed)
and a metallic rattle that sounds like some loose piece is falling to
the bottom of the transmission whenever the vehicle comes to a halt.
So now I have a choice, do I haul the tranny to the South end of town
and pay for a rebuild, or do I do the rebuild myself.
1. I never even opened a transmission before, and the diagrams make it
look tremendously complex inside.
2. I lack all of the tools required, (including a inch/lb accurate
torque wrench and a bearing press) as well as several special service
tools.
OTOH,
1. I may save a little money now, and certainly will save money if I
ever have to do this again
2. I can modify the transmission for a electronic speed sensor, and
maybe even remove unneeded gears like first.
3. The factory manual I have covers the entire process, and is very
complete.
Thoughts? Anyone ever done this before?
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-
Take out the drive shaft and install an electric drive on the rear dif. FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: BC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 3/7/2007 9:27:58 AM
> Subject: RE: subaru
>
> I think the problem with the subaru, correct me if I'm wrong, is that they
> are all either all wheel drive vehicles or 4WD. EVERY Subaru is like
that.
> Thus you have a greater drain on the batteries. Of course you could just
> replace the transmission.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mike golub
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:18 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: subaru
>
>
> it be interesting if do the subaru.
> Haven't seen too many of those.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Ian Page-Echols
> Could someone upload a sample of what this squeal sounds like?
The sound is very simple; just a simple, pure whistle at 1.5 KHz. Hold down any
key on your computer keyboard while it tries to boot and you'll hear a very
good likeness (volume and all).
> I'd like to know if people are being picky or if it's something
> that would drive me crazy or to the verge of embarrassment to
> have in my own car.
You need to understand that the sound is coming from the motor, not the
controller (the motor is the "loudspeaker"). How loud it is depends on the
motor, and how easily sound can get out of it and to your ears. This varies
dramatically between installations.
I have the Curtis squeal in my EV, and it's hardly noticeable. It's softer than
the softest whistle I can make. But I've heard other EVs where is was much
louder.
But I do agree with Shari Prange -- the complaining on the EV list is often
much louder than the squeal itself. :-)
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2007, at 7:46 AM, Jim Husted wrote:
> > I have been known to snap that last bolt
> > from time to time, of course it's always the last
> > one I'm doing, just to make it all that more >
> difficult to redo.
>
> Well I hope its the last one!! What point would
> tightening the rest be
> after you break one. LMAO
>
> Wait - I better be careful... (I may some of Jim's
> work, crap, <snip>
> Paul "neon" G.
Hey all
I just had to start with Pauls little comment. Yeah I
walked into that one huh? Okay 4th bolt, how's that
funnyboy??? Then it looks to me as though you're
saying something about my crap work, LMAO!
I just can't catch a break with you guys!
Last time I looked you still owed me a ride in your
buggy! I'm not a chaulkboard kind of guy but you get
one more mark and well... hehe.
ANYWAY before I was so rudely interrupted this thread
was about James Masseys "how not to rebuild a motor"
(although "look before you leap" works well also)
posts 8^)
For those following this thread I wrote James that I
did have a set that could some how save this
horrorfest. I knew I had a coil set but didn't know
if they were actually good or not. Luckily they were
good but needed a rewrap. I decided I'd better run
with the ball on this and got on them as I awaited
further instructions. After much waiting and seeing
it was finally 6AM James' time I began wondering when
he'd give me a write back. Anyway it seems James just
talks a mean 5AM lol. James eventually drug himself
out of bed and shot me a call.
Now I was picturing my evil twin having a Darth Vader
kinda sounding voice, but James has a charming
pleasant sounding accent (although my uncle couldn't
understand him)(he just shrugged his shoulders at me
when I came to the phone, LMAO) (although I don't
think I'd want him talking to my wife, lmao)
Having known James for 2 years now via this list it
was fun to actually talk, kind of puts a face on the
poster. Up until today he always sounded like me when
I read his emails, kinda detracts from the evil twin
theory I had working 8^P
Anyway I'm working up a little care package for James,
see if I can't throw him some misc. goodies so he can
help get a few more EV's rolling down under.
You know I'm about all MKZ'd out! I shot James a pic
of the "original" Hi-Torque version to compare it to
his "almost as good version", if he decides to put it
up, LMAO. Yes, I know I'm a jerk. I bet you'll never
forget this lesson though will you??
I told James if he paints them red I'll kill him 8^o
You better not fry my insulation attaching the add-on
studs either. I can see James burning them to a crisp
just so he could take a picture of my (how'd Paul put
it..) crap work? 8^p
Actually a lot of good lessons to be learned from this
thread concerning modifying existing designs as well
as working with used cores. As a last word to you
motor modders out there give me a write before you
destroy something because there may be a cure and a
way to get it right (Peter).
I guess you guys all know why I route my leads the way
I do now huh. You know you give them pictures and
they still don't get it, LMAO. You know if Miss
Oregon were holding them in the pics I'd understand
8^o
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the purpose of electrical grease like noalox is to prevent
oxidation and thereby improve conductivity. However if you really need
conductive grease McMaster has a product with silver in it. You can
find it on page 2085, or search for conductive grease.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
On 3/7/07, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for the lead Joseph. I assume you mean Ilsco Deox Oxide Inhibitor.
On their web page, Ilsco describes Deox's features as:
a.. Provides air-tight seal around conductor.
a.. Available in a variety of packages.
a.. Broad working temperature range.
a.. Conductor versatile.
a.. Prevents oxides from forming.
a.. Provides convenience of selecting the right size for the job.
a.. May be used from -30 F to 300 F, and on copper or aluminum conductors.
Says nothing about it being conductive. It sounds a bit like Noalox to me.
Have you tested it with an Ohm meter for conductivity? Is there any other
grease that is more conductive?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
> Try De-ox.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
>
>
> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
> >
> > I've tried testing the conductivity of Noalox and found it to not be
very
> > conductive at all.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > Tom Gocze wrote:
> > > It could be set up with some conductive grease for good
> > > contact and ease of use.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, nothing but some time destroyed yet, although I am working really
hard on it :)
I appreciate the offer of help and I'll try to make you regret it.
Speaking of help... The brush springs, how may turns should they be
twisted? I could either put them in at a 1/4 turn or 1 & 1/4 turn. I'm
guessing it's the latter since just a quarter turn seemed to soft but
I better ask the expert.
Actually a lot of good lessons to be learned from this
thread concerning modifying existing designs as well
as working with used cores. As a last word to you
motor modders out there give me a write before you
destroy something because there may be a cure and a
way to get it right (Peter).
I guess you guys all know why I route my leads the way
I do now huh. You know you give them pictures and
they still don't get it, LMAO. You know if Miss
Oregon were holding them in the pics I'd understand
8^o
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I understand that if possible, you want to keep the full battery pack
voltage out of the passenger cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a
voltmeter on the dashboard then?
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I was going to try using that 10HP G29 motor, that
wilderness ev has been infamously using.
I was going to try to make my own adapter plate and
coupling for my 98 chevy metro.
Has anyone done this combination, and what coupling
did you use? Are the female splines available? Or do
I need to machine that part off?
I'll have access to machine shop at my school, but I
am required to draw the plate in solidworks first.
It seems a lot of people have this conversion
combination GEO+G29 motor, so I was wondering if I
need to reinvent wheel here?
thanks in advance,
Michael Golub
Fairbanks, AK
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But wouldn't it be better if the grease were truly "conductive"? I
envisioned something like mercury mixed in with the grease, but less toxic.
Is there any grease that you can put a glob of on the bench, stick the
multimeter leads into (close together but not touching) and get a reading of
less than infinity Ohms?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
> Bruce wrote:
> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
>
> The grease isn't conductive. It's just supposed to keep water, dirt, and
> corrosion out of the connection. Most of the additives and claims are
> marketing BS.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless you want to become real fancy, you will have to run wiring from your
pack to the dash....
You could use the series resistor that you normally use to turn a uA meter
into a voltmeter and divide it in two equal (but half the value) resistors,
so each lead into the dash has a large resistance and can only cause a small
leak, but the Amp-meter cannot be wired any other way than directly to the
shunt in the pack wiring, so the best thing you can do is use
double-isolated and fused high-voltage wiring.
Hth,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Voltmeter
I understand that if possible, you want to keep the full battery pack
voltage out of the passenger cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a
voltmeter on the dashboard then?
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee already said it: it is grease. It does not conduct.
The only reason to use it is to prevent the conductive surface from
oxidizing.
But you will need to penetrate the grease at the contact spot to make the
contact.
If the force is very light, this may not happen.
However, in a battery post or a fuse holder, the clamping force is large
enough to squeeze the grease out of the way, so it only *surrounds* the
contact area, to avoid moisture and oxigen to come and create a
non-conductive layer.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
Thanks for the lead Joseph. I assume you mean Ilsco Deox Oxide Inhibitor.
On their web page, Ilsco describes Deox's features as:
a.. Provides air-tight seal around conductor.
a.. Available in a variety of packages.
a.. Broad working temperature range.
a.. Conductor versatile.
a.. Prevents oxides from forming.
a.. Provides convenience of selecting the right size for the job.
a.. May be used from -30 F to 300 F, and on copper or aluminum conductors.
Says nothing about it being conductive. It sounds a bit like Noalox to me.
Have you tested it with an Ohm meter for conductivity? Is there any other
grease that is more conductive?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
> Try De-ox.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
>
>
> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
> >
> > I've tried testing the conductivity of Noalox and found it to not be
very
> > conductive at all.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > Tom Gocze wrote:
> > > It could be set up with some conductive grease for good
> > > contact and ease of use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh yes, but it does not help you.
For battery pack currents, even 1 Ohm is an unacceptable high resistance.
Other than mercury wetted relay contacts, I don't know a fluid or grease
that could give you the contact properties you need for an EV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
But wouldn't it be better if the grease were truly "conductive"? I
envisioned something like mercury mixed in with the grease, but less toxic.
Is there any grease that you can put a glob of on the bench, stick the
multimeter leads into (close together but not touching) and get a reading of
less than infinity Ohms?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
> Bruce wrote:
> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
>
> The grease isn't conductive. It's just supposed to keep water, dirt, and
> corrosion out of the connection. Most of the additives and claims are
> marketing BS.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
they make a conductive grease made from silver, as you might guess it is
expensive.
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Chemtronics/Web%20Data/CW7100.pdf
Bruce wrote:
But wouldn't it be better if the grease were truly "conductive"? I
envisioned something like mercury mixed in with the grease, but less toxic.
Is there any grease that you can put a glob of on the bench, stick the
multimeter leads into (close together but not touching) and get a reading of
less than infinity Ohms?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
Bruce wrote:
Where might one find "conductive grease"?
The grease isn't conductive. It's just supposed to keep water, dirt, and
corrosion out of the connection. Most of the additives and claims are
marketing BS.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you calculate the power handling rating of the precharge resistor?
>From Lee's example (1 Amp, 144 Volts), would the resistor then need to be
rated for 144 watts? But its only being used for a short time.
Bruce
Michaela Merz wrote:
>Hmm ... and what would be the value of that resisitor?
Lee Hart wrote:
> It's not at all critical. Curtis recommends 250 to 750 ohms, depending on
the controller. The switch that you have in series with it (to turn on the
precharge) sets the minimum resistance; if it is rated for (say) 1 amp, and
your pack is 144v, then the resistor can be as small as R = 144v/1amp = 144
ohms.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can find "Silver" grease in many computer and electronic shops. it
tends to only be sold in 1/2 or 1oz containers tho.
> But wouldn't it be better if the grease were truly "conductive"? I
> envisioned something like mercury mixed in with the grease, but less
> toxic.
>
> Is there any grease that you can put a glob of on the bench, stick the
> multimeter leads into (close together but not touching) and get a reading
> of
> less than infinity Ohms?
>
> Bruce
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
>
>
>> Bruce wrote:
>> > Where might one find "conductive grease"?
>>
>> The grease isn't conductive. It's just supposed to keep water, dirt, and
>> corrosion out of the connection. Most of the additives and claims are
>> marketing BS.
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since power is applied to it for a fraction of a second (after which it
decays quickly) the power handling can be also a fraction of the continuous
rating.
For example if you calculate a max peak of 144W, then a 50W wirewound
resistor is likely to give you years of trouble-free pre-charging.
Or a lightbulb....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Precharge Resistor Primer
How do you calculate the power handling rating of the precharge resistor?
>From Lee's example (1 Amp, 144 Volts), would the resistor then need to
>be
rated for 144 watts? But its only being used for a short time.
Bruce
Michaela Merz wrote:
>Hmm ... and what would be the value of that resisitor?
Lee Hart wrote:
> It's not at all critical. Curtis recommends 250 to 750 ohms, depending
> on
the controller. The switch that you have in series with it (to turn on the
precharge) sets the minimum resistance; if it is rated for (say) 1 amp, and
your pack is 144v, then the resistor can be as small as R = 144v/1amp = 144
ohms.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
I don't understand what double-isolated wiring means. Are you talking about
running the insulated wiring in separate conduits for positive and negative?
Thanks,
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: Voltmeter
> Unless you want to become real fancy, you will have to run wiring from
your
> pack to the dash....
> You could use the series resistor that you normally use to turn a uA meter
> into a voltmeter and divide it in two equal (but half the value)
resistors,
> so each lead into the dash has a large resistance and can only cause a
small
> leak, but the Amp-meter cannot be wired any other way than directly to the
> shunt in the pack wiring, so the best thing you can do is use
> double-isolated and fused high-voltage wiring.
>
> Hth,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Bruce
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:06 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Voltmeter
>
> I understand that if possible, you want to keep the full battery pack
> voltage out of the passenger cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a
> voltmeter on the dashboard then?
>
> Bruce
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a double-isolated cord has isolation on the wires themselves as well as a
plastic jacket around the isolated wires. If you see a round power cord, it
is always double isolated. Cut the jacket and you arrive at the wire
isolation. The flat type where you see two or three wires molded together is
single isolated - cut the plastic and you arrive at the conductor.
You can create the same level of protection by running single isolated wires
in an isolating (plastic) conduit, though running double isolated cord in a
conduit is triple isolated ;-)
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Voltmeter
Cor,
I don't understand what double-isolated wiring means. Are you talking about
running the insulated wiring in separate conduits for positive and negative?
Thanks,
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: Voltmeter
> Unless you want to become real fancy, you will have to run wiring from
your
> pack to the dash....
> You could use the series resistor that you normally use to turn a uA meter
> into a voltmeter and divide it in two equal (but half the value)
resistors,
> so each lead into the dash has a large resistance and can only cause a
small
> leak, but the Amp-meter cannot be wired any other way than directly to the
> shunt in the pack wiring, so the best thing you can do is use
> double-isolated and fused high-voltage wiring.
>
> Hth,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Bruce
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:06 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Voltmeter
>
> I understand that if possible, you want to keep the full battery pack
> voltage out of the passenger cabin for safety reasons. How do you have a
> voltmeter on the dashboard then?
>
> Bruce
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a product that I have used in the past as a "super" conductor on
wire splices.
Made by Thomas & Betts
"Kopr-ShieldT Compound-The copper colloidal surface treatment that protects,
lubricates and enhances conductivity between all electrical connections."
You need to be very careful with it as it tracks very easily and the
multimeter leads can be on either side of the the "glob" and still read a
low resistance.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 9:16 PM
Subject: Conductive Grease, Was: Safety Disconnect
But wouldn't it be better if the grease were truly "conductive"? I
envisioned something like mercury mixed in with the grease, but less
toxic.
Is there any grease that you can put a glob of on the bench, stick the
multimeter leads into (close together but not touching) and get a reading
of
less than infinity Ohms?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
Bruce wrote:
> Where might one find "conductive grease"?
The grease isn't conductive. It's just supposed to keep water, dirt, and
corrosion out of the connection. Most of the additives and claims are
marketing BS.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick,
I re-checked my calculations and I made a mistake in multiply iso divide by
the 0.1V that I tried to achieve.
Lee's recommendation of 10 to 100uF would be better to kill everything of 1
kHz and higher frequency, but it appears that the noise you are combatting
is much higher in frequency, a DC/DC can easily run at 100 kHz.
Anyway, if you want to be on the safe side you may try increasing value to
at least 10 uF which should hardly make a difference in size or price and
keep the red LEDs probably from glowing.
For the calculation I used the equation for charge:
It = VC (current x time = voltage x capacitance)
I = 10 mA (approx)
t = 1 ms (actually shorter, but to make sure everything near 1kHz and above
is killed)
V = 0.1V (my assumption, it must be much smaller than the LED voltage)
so, C = 0.01A x 0.001s x 1/0.1V = 0.0001F = 100uF
(I forgot to divide by voltage, used multiply instead)
Now 100uF is a safe value, probably 10uF is sufficient (will cut off at 3
kHz)
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Need advice on Lee Hart's batt-bridge circuit
Hi all,
I tried Cor's recommendation of a small electrolytic capacitor (1 uF) across
the red LEDs and it brought them down to a barely perceptible glow. I
haven't wired it into the circuit permanently yet (waiting for the rain to
stop outside!), but I think that has done the trick. I checked everything
Lee mentioned, but I guess I just have a noisy DC-DC converter. It is a
Lambda module that I mounted on a home-made circuit board - I don't remember
adding any input capacitors to it, I guess I should have.
Thanks,
Nick
Lee Hart wrote:
> Nick wrote:
>> I just constructed the circuit shown in the email below...
>> When I fired it up, all three lights come on... if I disconnected my
>> DC-DC converter, the two red lights would turn off...
>> I also discovered that when I drive it (without the DC-DC) both red
>> lights would come on faintly whenever I accelerated (even slightly).
>> Any recommendations, anyone?
>>
>> Pack+______________
>> |
>> >
>> red > R1
>> LED >
>> ___|/|___|
>> | |\| _|_
>> Center___| _\_/_ green
>> tap | | LED
>> |___|\|___|
>> |/| |
>> red >
>> LED > R2
>> >
>> Pack-______________|
>
> There are several things to check.
>
> First, are you tapping your pack to power something? If one part of
> the pack has a load that the other part doesn't, it creates and
> imbalance which lights the red LEDs.
>
> For example, if you tap the pack at 24v to power the E-meter: The
> E-meter has a 1000uF capacitor across its input; that holds the 24v
> tap's voltage more stable than the rest of the pack; current spikes
> from the DC/DC or controller will shift it less than the part of the
> pack without that 1000uF capacitive load, which lights the red
"unbalanced"
> LEDs.
>
> Second, exactly where did you connect the batt-bridge circuit? If the
> + or - ends aren't connected directly at the battery terminals, then
> voltage drops in the wiring, fuses, shunt, connectors, etc. will shift
> the voltage as a function of load current.
>
> For example, if the + wire to the batt-bridge connects at the + input
> to the DC/DC converter, then the current spikes drawn by the DC/DC
> cause voltage drops in all the wiring between pack + and this point.
>
> Third, the resistors you used for R1 and R2 might be too low a
> resistance, making the batt-bridge too sensitive. Try increasing their
> value.
>
> Fourth, you might have an unusually noisy DC/DC or controller that
> doesn't have filter capacitors on their inputs. You can make the
> batt-bridge less sensitive to AC noise by adding a small electrolytic
> capacitor across each red LED (10-100 uf is good).
>
> Finally, you may in fact have a weak battery in the pack with
> excessive internal resistance. If none of the above helps, look for this!
--- End Message ---
