EV Digest 6555
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) GM looking for battery people
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: hub motors and PML
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 36 Volt Caterpillar Forklift Drive Motor #6R550 Cat
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVLN(GM using Chevron NiMH batteries)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EVLN(GM Li-ion battery media tour)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EVLN(GM needs to stop talking & get Job One done)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) EVLN(XEBRA Truck EV + small Danish Li-ion pack)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EVLN(4 Seater Ebike spun around the lab giving EVgrins)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) lectro electric forklift 30-24A
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) golf cart motor 48 volt
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From the nameplate of the drive shown and the size of the cabinet those
appear to be about 1 HP drives. The 1333 AB drive is about 5 or 6 series
old and are probably early 1990s vintage.
As James mentioned the AB drives have firmware that checks for incoming
phase loss and I haven't found a simple way to fool it into thinking the
incoming lines are there.
I have been asking every industrial drives distributer I deal with about
using their drives with a DC input and have not had much positive feedback.
I was able to talk to another one today at a seminar and he actually was
encouraging so I will see what he is able to come up with. He actually
admitted to doing a conversion in college back in the early 90s so he may be
more sympathetic to the problem.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
"The Skunk" http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=751
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: AC Drives on Ebay
I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
Item number: 260094665248
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an EV usage....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool article, check it out:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/03/14/general-motors-talks-about-battery-development/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Never used a fusable link, but my loose battery
connections would bust sometimes going up a hill or a
slight incline too fast.
Emergency toolkit on vehicle:
1)Spare cable that can by-pass a battery or two.
2)Proper tool to connect batteries. Should be
insulated.
3)Cable cutter.
No problem running 112V. I ran a couple times on 114V.
If you want more range drive slower!
--- "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you really get 80 km range???
>
> If so, thats really good. And to what DOD is that?
>
>
> On 15/03/07, Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 1974 Toyota Celica which is running on 15
> 8V Trojan batteries
> > (120v). For almost a year now, I have been using
> the car to commute
> > to work in Seattle, at first going about 25miles
> round trip, and for
> > the past 6 months, 50 miles round trip. It has
> worked great.
> >
> > We recently moved into an apartment, and there is
> no place to plug in my
> > car :(
> >
> > The apartment move is temporary, eventually we are
> moving from Seattle
> > up to Orcas Island, so until that move happens, I
> decided to loan the
> > car to a friend of mine on Orcas who was driving
> his desiel truck to
> > work each day (20 miles round trip).
> >
> > In Seattle for the most part my commute was fairly
> flat, yet my speeds
> > were in the 50-65mph range. On Orcas, top speed
> is about 35, but more
> > hills. A couple of rather large ones. My friend
> used the car for a
> > week without any problems, and loved it.
> >
> > But, yesterday on the way back to work going up a
> longish hill, the
> > fusable link in the rear battery compartment blew,
> and took out one of
> > the battery posts with it (I didn't have it
> shielded very well, oops).
> > Luckily the local cop (the only one on the
> island), came along a few
> > minutes later by chance, pushed him to the top of
> the hill, and then
> > gave him a ride home.
> >
> > Now, for my question. Is it OK to just bypass
> that one battery (and
> > run on 112V), just to limp home? Complete specs
> on the car can be
> > found on the ev album
> (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/754).
> >
> > My second question is what is the best approach to
> dealing with longer
> > hills and the increased heat generated by running
> high amps for
> > several minutes? I'm thinking about my next EV,
> and wonder if going
> > with a higher voltage system would be better for
> the hills. Is AC any
> > better than DC? Or in the end is it just the same
> amount of energy
> > going through the wires? Is there a better
> alternative to fusable
> > links? When they blow it sort of leaves you
> stranded.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Chris Sutton
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, that was just a guess a while back. I probably get about 35 or
maybe 40miles depending on speed, hills, and lead in my foot. DOD at
that point is maybe 80%? The "state of charge" guage takes a while to
understand. It does not go down linearly. More like 1st 1/4 goes
down fairly fast, next 1/4 takes a good while, next 1/4 goes pretty
fast, last 1/4 goes really fast. That is with flooded lead. I'm sure
other batteries are different.
On 3/14/07, Ev Performance (Robert Chew) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Do you really get 80 km range???
If so, thats really good. And to what DOD is that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/14/07, mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Never used a fusable link, but my loose battery
connections would bust sometimes going up a hill or a
slight incline too fast.
I think that maybe is what happend. Something was a little loose, and it blew.
Emergency toolkit on vehicle:
1)Spare cable that can by-pass a battery or two.
2)Proper tool to connect batteries. Should be
insulated.
3)Cable cutter.
I actually have most of that in the car, but I'm here 6 hours away,
and my friend is pretty new at this stuff, and I think a little afraid
of breaking my car.
No problem running 112V. I ran a couple times on 114V.
Good to know. I think he can figure out how to bypass the battery and
get the car back home.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The have info on their news on their page that they are supplying
wheel motors for motorized luggage, does that count ? :)
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/news.html
-kert
On 3/15/07, Mike Harvey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I requested pricing from PML a few months back for a wheel motor of pretty
lean specifications, and got back a quote of $17k per wheel and %50 shipping
charges. At $25k per wheel, I wouldn't exactly say they "sell them" to EV
folks. I cant imagine a large market at that price, epsecially if you need
two at a minimum...Could get an AC-150 soup to nuts and a decent LiPo pack
for that dough. Id like to know of anyone that has purchased a single wheel
from them (beside a govt subsidized R&D program along with their $600
hammers of course cuz they dont count:).
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: hub motors and PML
>i guess it is only fair to acknowledge that PML is a
> proper company which has evolved from printed pancake
> motors to hub motors .. being an english company, they
> would not be exisiting if they didn't make what they claim
>
> they DO have a wide variety of motors .. round long bodied
> and hub types too
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "david woolard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:41 PM
> Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
>
>
>> In support of PML I have to say that their BLDC wheel
>> motors do seem to be quite sophisticated. They also do
>> sell their motors to individuals, unlike a few other
>> EV technology companies.
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to
> use" - The Wall Street Journal
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cheers for that. As for driving fast...hmmmm....i really don't think i do!
On 15/03/07, Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 3/14/07, mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Never used a fusable link, but my loose battery
> connections would bust sometimes going up a hill or a
> slight incline too fast.
I think that maybe is what happend. Something was a little loose, and it
blew.
> Emergency toolkit on vehicle:
> 1)Spare cable that can by-pass a battery or two.
>
> 2)Proper tool to connect batteries. Should be
> insulated.
>
> 3)Cable cutter.
I actually have most of that in the car, but I'm here 6 hours away,
and my friend is pretty new at this stuff, and I think a little afraid
of breaking my car.
> No problem running 112V. I ran a couple times on 114V.
Good to know. I think he can figure out how to bypass the battery and
get the car back home.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a bead on what size motor this is from Caterpilar? (Jim)?
...and if its worth $380
ebay Item number: 170091531039
http://cgi.ebay.com/36-Volt-Caterpillar-Forklift-Drive-Motor-6R550-Cat_W0QQitemZ170091531039QQcategoryZ109507QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?
hash=item170091531039
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Don't forget to subtract the oil changes, tune-ups,
> muffler replacements, radiators, water pumps, etc.
> that a gas version would normally go through.
I'm entirely convinced that either the EV community is made up of people
wholly cursed with their ICEs... or that generous logic is being applied
to EVs, while pessimistic logic is applied to ICEs.
Parked on my property I have:
* 1993 3/4-ton Dodge turbo-diesel pickup - 168K
* 1999 Subaru Legacy - 180K
* 1990 Isuzu Amigo - 155K
* 1989 Isuzu Amigo - 185K
There have been an few significant failures to date, in well over 600K
miles of use and abuse:
- Subaru needed new camshaft seals, which required a significant degree
of disassembly
- 90 Amigo burst an oil line and dead-head driver failed (sadly: me) to
notice the red light
(gave me a great excuse to stuff a Mustang EFI 302 into it!)
I live in CA -- cars seem to last forever (as do mufflers, radiators,
and sheet metal). I do change the oil regularly on these vehicles, but
that's pretty cheap except for the diesel. I have to smog the gassers
every other year -- there's a cost that an EV Evades.
I'm still planning an EV trike, but that's for fun -- I don't really
expect that it will ever save me money unless the price of fuel spikes
well beyond where it has been. Electricity has been increasing in cost,
as especially have batteries...
EVs are a valid choice. So are ICEs.
They don't compare very well -- why must we slam one to appreciate the
other?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(GM using Chevron NiMH batteries)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=basicIndustries&storyID=2007-03-13T220504Z_01_N13469907_RTRIDST_0_SP_PAGE_023-N13469907-OISBI.XML
Cobasys to Provide Batteries for GM Hybrid Malibu
Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:05 PM BST
DETROIT (Reuters) - Cobasys, a venture of Chevron Corp and Energy
Conversion Devices, said on Tuesday it will provide battery packs
to General Motors Corp. for its new Malibu hybrid car.
Cobasys will provide nickel metal hydride battery system for the
gasoline-electric hybrid car, which hits showrooms in the fall.
Gasoline-electric hybrids use both an electric motor and a
combustion engine.
Cobasys said the battery systems will be manufactured at its
facility in Springboro, Ohio.
The company is also bidding to provide batteries for GM's Volt
plug-in hybrid car, designed to use little or no gasoline. GM
showed the "concept" car in January at the North American
International Auto Show and has set 2010 as a target for the
production of the vehicle.
The push to develop environmentally friendly cars is an attempt
by GM to distance itself from its close association with
gas-guzzling sport utility vehicles, a reputation executives say
has hampered its sales in some markets.
GM has said the Volt will be outfitted with new lithium-ion
battery packs, which hold a charge longer than the nickel metal
hydride batteries now used widely in hybrid automobiles.
Plug-in hybrids, a favorite among many environmentalists, are
capable of being charged from a standard electric outlet.
© Reuters 2007. All rights reserved.
===
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-13-2007/0004545205&EDATE=
Cobasys Confirms Production Contract for 2008 Chevrolet Malibu
Hybrid Sedan
Battery System Supplier Awarded Fourth Hybrid Program by General
Motors
ORION, MI, March 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Cobasys, a leading
supplier of advanced integrated energy storage solutions, today
confirmed that they have been chosen to provide their NiMHax(R)
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery system for General Motors'
redesigned 2008 Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid Sedan unveiled at the
2007 North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
The Chevrolet Malibu arrives in showrooms in fall, 2007 and will
feature the same hybrid system that powers the Saturn Vue Green
Line SUV and 2007 Saturn Aura Green Line mid-size sedan. The
Malibu hybrid combines sophisticated controls and a unique
electric motor / generator mated to their 2.4L Ecotec
four-cylinder engine and the Cobasys NiMHax(R)battery system,
leading to substantial fuel economy gains.
Both Saturn Green Line vehicles and the Malibu hybrid system
provide: an electric power assist during acceleration; increased
fuel economy through engine shut-off at idle; fuel cut-off during
deceleration; and the capability to capture electrical energy
through regenerative braking.
Cobasys' complete "plug-and-play" NiMHax 36-Volt system, which
includes its high power advanced NiMH battery modules and
electronics in a small, lightweight package, was designed
specifically for GM's hybrid applications. The NiMHax 36 Volt
systems will be manufactured at the Cobasys facility in
Springboro, Ohio.
"Cobasys is pleased to have been awarded a fourth hybrid program
from General Motors as they continue to develop their portfolio
of hybrid offerings," stated Gary Absher, Vice President of
Product Development. "At Cobasys, we have positioned ourselves to
be technology leaders by creating the right advanced chemistry
battery system solutions for hybrid vehicles."
As General Motors continues to expand into the industry's most
diverse portfolio of hybrid technologies, Cobasys has surfaced as
the key player in supplying their environmentally-friendly energy
storage systems for GM's hybrid programs, including:
- The 2007 Saturn Vue Green Line SUV containing the Cobasys
NiMHax(R) Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery system while was
available to consumers in summer, 2006.
- The recently announce 2007 Saturn Aura Green Line mid-size
sedan which will also feature the Cobasys "plug-and-play"
NiMHax system.
- General Motors awarded an advanced battery contract to Cobasys
and its partner A123Systems to design and test lithium-ion
batteries for both plug-in and extended range electric
vehicles. The advanced batteries are planned for the Saturn
Vue Green Line plug-in hybrid SUV and GM's E-Flex electric
vehicle system.
- Now, Cobasys is confirming it will be supplying the 2008
Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid Sedan with the same 36V NiMH battery
system offered on the Saturn hybrids.
Erik Hansen, Cobasys General Manager of Sales commented, "Cobasys
is chemistry flexible because no single technology is right for
all vehicle and stationary applications. In 2007, we will be
investing over $30 million in plant and equipment to meet the
ever growing demand for Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) battery
systems at our Springboro, Ohio module manufacturing and system
assembly plant. Cobasys has contracted for the majority of its
capacity through 2010."
Cobasys designs, manufactures and integrates advanced battery
system solutions featuring Nickel Metal Hydride for
transportation markets, including Hybrid Electric Vehicles (HEV),
Electric Vehicles (EV) and 36/42 Volt applications and to
stationary markets, including Back-Up power supply systems for
Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS), Telecom and Distributed
Generation markets.
Cobasys is a joint venture between Chevron Technology Ventures
LLC, a subsidiary of Chevron Corporation and Energy Conversion
Devices, Inc.
For more information about Cobasys, contact Ray Wagner at
248-620-5700 or visit our website at http://www.cobasys.com.
SOURCE Cobasys http://www.cobasys.com
Copyright © 1996-2007 PR Newswire Association LLC.
All Rights Reserved.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(GM Li-ion battery media tour)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070313/BUSINESS01/703130311/1014
GM shows inner workings of hybrid battery research lab
March 13, 2007 BY KATIE MERX FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER
General Motors Corp. wants the world to know that the Chevrolet
Volt electric concept car -- and the company's quest to diversify
the energy sources used to propel the world's automobiles --
aren't PR stunts.
To prove it, Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman and global chief of
product development, said the automaker plans to take the unusual
step throughout the development of the Volt and its lithium
battery of opening much of the development process to the news
media.
On Monday, GM took the first step in keeping that promise,
providing more than 50 journalists and bloggers with a tour of
its hybrid vehicle battery lab in Warren. It also gave more than
100 reporters a basic tutorial of how lithium batteries work and
where the automaker and its suppliers are in developing one that
can safely, reliably and affordably power an electric car.
Lutz said he expects to see a prototype of the plug-in hybrid
electric vehicle by the end of the year. GM, he said, has an
internal production target of 2010.
The major hurdle to getting there, Lutz and others say, is
developing a lithium battery that is safe, durable and
affordable.
Mary Ann Wright, CEO of Johnson Controls-Saft Advanced Power
Solutions, said lithium batteries are "clearly the next step in
the hybrid electrical journey" because they have the capacity to
provide the right combination of energy and power for an electric
vehicle.
Johnson Controls-Saft is one of two suppliers GM has awarded
lithium battery development contracts. The other is Orion-based
Cobasys.
The engineers working on the battery are confident it can work,
she said, they just have to find the proper chemistry and
configuration of battery cells to make it work safely and meet
GM's standards.
Nick Zielinski, chief engineer for the Volt, said GM wants a
lithium battery that will last 10 years and 150,000 miles.
"We do set pretty aggressive targets for the durability of the
vehicle," Zielinski said. "Right now, I don't think any of us are
willing to give up those goals."
Contact KATIE MERX at 313-222-8762 or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[(Photos by JOHN F. MARTIN/GM)
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20070313&Category=BUSINESS01&ArtNo=703130311&Ref=AR&Profile=1014
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C4&Date=20070313&Category=BUSINESS01&ArtNo=703130311&Ref=V2&Profile=1014
Engineer Chris Ciaramitaro reviews the setup for testing
lithium-ion batteries in the General Motors Battery Lab at the GM
Tech Center in Warren on Friday. GM took journalists and bloggers
on a tour of the lab on Monday. The company hopes to have a
lithium-ion battery ready for use in 2010.]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(GM needs to stop talking & get Job One done)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=192&sid=192&article=12067
GMs Big Plug-In Talk by Jerry Flint (2007-03-14)
GM needs to stop talking as if Job One were tomorrow.
[image
http://www.thecarconnection.com/zoom-image.asp?/images/gallery/11572_QIJLIAENVULGK.jpg
2007 Chevrolet Volt Concept]
It's an old Sinatra tune, but it gives me trouble: "Got my tweed
pressed, got my best vest, all I need now is the girl."
What does that mean? The guy in the song has nothing without the
girl.
I have the same trouble with all the talk from General Motors
about building the 100-miles-to-the-gallon plug-in electric
hybrid Volt in 2010. Robert Lutz, the Vice Chairman, says there
is an internal target for production by that year. Other GM
people also have used that date, but Lutz is not afraid to stand
up and say this for attribution. The problem, says Lutz and
others from GM, is that they do not have the batteries yet.
All they need is the batteries? Without the batteries, there is
nothing. And GM's battery people, who held a briefing Monday, say
lots of work remains to be done before the battery systems are
ready for production. Lots. After listening to that briefing, I
would not expect mass production in three years.
So how can the other side of the company talk of building such a
vehicle if you do not have the batteries? Mind you, I think
Robert Lutz is the best, the heart of the GM recovery. He has
done wonders, and more vehicles reflecting his terrific influence
are on the way. Lutz is honest, too, and he showed some doubts
about the electric car: "I would say there is still a ten-percent
chance this will fail."
Cheap promises
I think that no one at GM should say anything that sounds like a
promise - even with a disclaimer - when it comes to miraculous
fuel-saving vehicles. The company has talked too much through the
years. Talk is cheap.
Over the years, I remember too many press events for GM engine
miracles that did not happen or have yet to happen. Such promises
include a new steam engine, the rotary motor, a revival of the
Sterling engine (invented by an English clergyman in the 19th
century and a GM research favorite a few decades ago), the
hydrogen fuel-cell engine, and "dual-mode" hybrid systems for
trucks which are promised for later this year.
Patrick Bedard of Car and Driver magazine remembers a GM
president promising an electric car in production by 1980 (I
remember a Ford vice chairman promising one, too). Bedard says
that GM's promises are like bouncing rubber checks, and we should
not trust folks that pass out bouncing checks.
"What is it about battery-powered cars that make dreamers, and
the press, and dreamers in the press, go full-court cuckoo for
them?" Bedard writes.
Roger Smith, Robert Stempel, and Jack Smith - all one-time GM
chief executives - supported the electric car. Now the current
boss, Rick Wagoner, is touting the electric plug-in hybrid, and
Bob Lutz seems all for it, too.
Lutz and everyone else at GM should stay away from promising
production dates to the press if there is a reasonable
probability that the company will not be able to make the
deadline. Toyota knows more about exotic batteries that any other
automaker in the world. They are working on plug-ins, too. Toyota
told me it is going to be a good while before we see the system
work. I believe Toyota.
So if GM does not get electric car production in 2010, you can
bet there will be a public television documentary titled, Who
Killed the Plug-In Car, blaming GM. There will be a book,
Unplugged at Any Speed, blaming GM for deliberately sabotaging
man's last hope to end our addiction to oil, and a movie, A
Really Inconvenient Truth, featuring an animated polar bear who
sings "It's too darn hot," and blames GM's failure as a victory
for global warming. Do not forget the million blogs condemning
GM, too.
An inside re-Volt
GM has showed an attractive plug-in electric prototype called the
Chevy Volt, and it is betting that engineers can develop a
battery pack of lithium-ion batteries that can run the car for 40
miles or so and last 100,000 miles and ten years. The Volt also
has a small gasoline engine, but its power does not go to the
wheels. Instead the engine runs a generator to create electric
power when the batteries run down, extending the vehicle's
driving range. Drivers could recharge the batteries at night at
home, by plugging in the car.
The trouble is that such lithium-ion battery packs for cars do
not exist. Today's hybrids use nickel-metal hydride batteries and
they are not good enough for this plug-in concept. The Toyota
Prius, the most popular of all hybrids, can run under electric
power alone, but only for short distances on its nickel-metal
hydride batteries. The Prius may start under electric power, but
it quickly switches over to a small gasoline engine that powers
the wheels most of the time. The battery pack also pushes some
extra power to the wheels when needed.
Lithium-ion batteries are common. Manufacturers make millions of
them every year, and they power relatively small devices like
laptop computers, cell phones, portable music players, and power
tools. These batteries have problems with heat buildup, among
other things. Propelling 3000 pounds for 40 miles at 65 miles per
hour is not the same as powering up a Dell. Some day we may have
lithium ion or other exotic battery packs for cars, but it could
take many more years to iron out the technical bugs and
manufacture such batteries in quantity.
That is why it is dangerous to toss out dates like 2010 for this
plug-in electric hybrid.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(XEBRA Truck EV + small Danish Li-ion pack)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=226272
New Electric Car Battery Available for ZAP XEBRA Truck
SANTA ROSA, CA -- (MARKET WIRE) -- March 14, 2007 -- Electric car
pioneer ZAP is offering a new electric car battery that can
extend the range of its XEBRA Truck by as much as 40 percent. The
new batteries are now in stock at ZAP and can be purchased
through your local ZAP dealer.
Officials from ZAP are saying the new batteries are a reasonably
priced solution to provide more range for its XEBRA customers.
The sealed, maintenance-free, lead-acid battery was specifically
designed by a battery OEM for the XEBRA truck. The batteries are
not yet available for the XEBRA Sedan. ZAP says a set of
batteries will sell for about $1,200.
ZAP has been researching new battery technologies for its
electric vehicle developments. In January, ZAP announced that it
was testing a new battery management system from a Danish
technology partner that can improve the performance and safety of
lithium batteries.
[...]
Forward-looking statements in this release [...] Contact: ZAP
Eveline Souza +1-707-525-8658 ext. 216 (Media)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Sherri Haskell +1-707-525-8658 ext. 232
(Investors) [EMAIL PROTECTED] SOURCE: ZAP
Copyright Market Wire
===
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/03/13/040141.html
ZAP Electric Car CEO Steve Schneider in Europe for Automotive Talks
[...]
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Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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EVLN(4 Seater Ebike spun around the lab giving EVgrins)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.kitsapsun.com/bsun/bu_business/article/0,2403,BSUN_19060_5414946,00.html
Designers develop safer vehicle for emerging nations
By PETER C.T. ELSWORTH March 12, 2007
In January 2002, Khipra Nichols was vacationing in Cambodia and
was intrigued to see entire families buzzing along the roads on
small motorcycles. And they were often carrying the groceries at
the same time.
"It's very common in Southeast Asia," said the well-traveled
associate professor of industrial design at the Rhode Island
School of Design. "Dad driving, two older kids (onboard) and Mom
riding side-saddle feeding the baby from a bottle. I once saw six
people on one bike."
In a sense, he never came back, because the sight inspired him to
work on a project to develop a cheap, clean and more comfortable
mode of transportation for ordinary people in developing
nations.
Nichols also said safety was a big factor. He noted a recent
bulletin from the World Health Organization that reported that
the second leading caused of death in sub-Saharan Africa after
AIDS is traffic accidents. He said that was very largely due to
the use of motorcycles as carriers of multiple passengers, many
of them children.
"That really caught my attention - the vulnerability of the
people in accidents," he said. "I started sketching. I wanted to
do something better."
Nichols has since teamed up with Michael Lye, also an assistant
professor in industrial design at Rhode Island School of Design,
and Chris Bull, a research engineer at Brown University, and the
group - which calls itself eMotive - has developed three
prototypes of a four-wheeled, electric vehicle with handlebars
and a motorcycle bench that seats four people.
"There's no great name for it," said Lye. "For the time being,
it's Project eMotive."
In the fall of 2003, he and Lye applied for a RISD research grant
and used the money to travel to San Diego to visit Bruce Meyers,
who developed the VW Beetle-based Dune Buggy, and to Turin,
Italy, to visit Ital Design and the Machimoto, which was designed
in the mid-1980s by Giorgetto Guigiaro. The half car, half
motorcycle has two motorcycle benches seating a total of eight
people.
They also visited kit-car makers, such as Miami-based Street
Beasts and Wareham, Mass.-based Factory Five Racing. "With kit
cars, manufacturers do the heavy work while the labor-intensive
work is done by the end-user," said Lye.
"The whole idea of this vehicle is that it could be built locally
with parts shipped to local manufacturers," added Nichols.
Visiting so many designers was an inspiration, said Lye. "We
wanted to see as many things as we could from as many places as
we could." In the summer of 2004, the two RISD professors teamed
up with Chris Bull at Brown.
[...]
The current vehicle is the third version the group has produced -
Prototypes 1 and 2 have since been disassembled with some parts
incorporated into Number 3. "They're getting more sophisticated,"
said Bull. "The power train is pretty well developed." The
motorcycle bench gives the vehicle the look of a snowmobile on
wheels. Being electric, the engine was silent as the four sat in
a row grinning and took a spin around the lab with Lye at the
controls. They said they have taken it out on the streets around
Brown, attracting bemused attention as they zip silently along.
The vehicle is battery powered and can reach 40 miles per hour
with a range of 40 miles on one charge. Bull said the batteries
need to charge overnight if the onboard charger is used, but can
be charged in four hours with a higher-capacity charger. The
battery is lead-acid rather than lithium ion. "The price is
right," said Bull.
The vehicle is narrow for city streets and the front wheels are
farther apart than the rear wheels, which makes it maneuverable.
"If the front end goes through, the back end will follow
through," said Nichols.
Lye said the group was not yet negotiating with manufacturers,
but noted, "We want to keep the price on a scale of the
motorcycle and scooter end of the market. We need to make it more
affordable than a (motor)bike."
The group hopes to take Prototype 4 to Ashesi University in Ghana
in 2008 for "testing on location as part of the design process."
Lye said such testing formed an ethnographic aspect to the
project, namely: How will people actually use the vehicle?
"How does it get used?" asked Nichols, noting the many ways that
people in Southeast Asia use the small motorbikes. He said many
are welded to frames to form sidecars that are used to create
small roadside stands to sell food and drinks, as well as taxis
or freight haulers. "It's a matter of creativity and necessity,"
he said. "They don't use (the motorbikes) as just transportation.
They are integrated into their lifestyle."
"We want them to be easily adapted, for carrying loads or people,
with different drive trains (using different fuels) depending on
what's available," said Bull.
(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, www.shns.com.)
Copyright 2007, kitsapsun.com. All Rights Reserved.
===
[image from web search - whole family on one motorcycle
http://www.anatholibulkin.com/imag/whole_family_on_a_motorcycle.jpg
]
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Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey
I'm going to tow this lectro electric forklift 30-24a
home tomorrow, using a tilt bed trailer.
Do they brakes work without power.
I was hoping I could just roll it down the ramp?
thanks!
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roland! So, I calculated, assuming 7000RPM max, the following for my
Scion xA, with AC55 delta motor:
TIRE/WHEEL:
75 inches circumfrence
23.74 inches diameter
STATS:
max motor rpm, 7000
15.2574 ratio in 1st
8.189 ratio in 2nd
5.6461 in 3rd
TOP SPEEDS:
mph 1st=33mph
mph 2nd=60mph
mph 3rd=87mph
The actual max motor rpm is 8000, so I'm being a little conservative here. The
stock Scion xA's 5MT power/torque curve is here:
http://www.remus.dti.ne.jp/~pochiinu/001Vitz-TechInfo/Taco/0411NZ-EGSC.jpg
Left is power, right is torque, bottom is rpm.
The power/torque curve for the AC55 is (blue and pink lines):
http://thsoftware.com/linked/ac55-motor-stats.jpg
So, a 60mph top speed is too slow, so I'm thinking of locking the gearbox in
3rd gear. Since the electric motor has twice the torque early on versus the ICE
engine, would 3rd be ok? Or would the acceleration be too slow? I'm hoping for
comparable, or slightly faster acceleration versus the ICE engine (0 to 60 in
10 seconds or so for the ICE engine).
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:45:58 AM
Subject: Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
Hello Tony,
I first start out with this formula when designing any prime mover system:
RPM x Tire Circumference
RPM = --------------------------
Overall Gear Ratio x 1056
To find the tire circumference, mark a reference point on the floor and tire
and rotate the tire until the tire mark is touching the floor and measure
between the marks.
The overall gear ratio is the transmission gear in the selected gear you are
in times the differential gear ratio.
For example, my 1st gear ratio is 3.5:1 and the differential ratio is
5.57:1, so the overall ratio in 1st gear is 3.5 x 5.57 = 19.495:1
My wheel circumference is 90 inches and maximum motor rpm is 6000 rpm, so:
6000 x 90
mph = ------------ = 26.23 mph in 1st gear
19.495 x 1056
I can accelerated to 25 mph moving 7000 lbs of weight at a normal
acceleration of any of vehicle in traffic and the maximum ampere will peak
to about 300 amps, then at cruse at 25 mph, the motor amperes comes back to
125 amps.
In second gear which is a 13.5:1 overall ratio, the motor amps goes to about
500 amps if I start out in this gear.
TCI Automotive makes up transmissions with any gear ratio you want, which I
am going to test out this year.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:27 AM
Subject: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
> I hear the number 10:1 thrown around, and it's also used in custom
> gearboxes for the AC24, and MES DEA motors.
>
> I'm wondering, given a motor torque/rpm curve, how would one calculate the
> optimal gear ratio? Efficiency, acceleration, top speed, etc, would all
> have to be balanced. I'm not sure where to begin. Also, where does one get
> a custom gearbox/diff made? I did some googling and couldn't find anything
> except custom racing transmissions which I don't need. I need just a one
> ratio gearbox. Would a torque limiter, or something that allows slip, be
> needed to protect the motor?
>
> - Tony
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/48-volt-Club-Car-golf-cart-car-dc-electric-motor_W0QQitemZ320091989687QQcategoryZ64662QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Say the cells can provide the 700 amps with nominal 3,7 v/cell. 81
cells. It comes quite near to 300 V nominal.
Say they would be at Kokams performance level. How much sag is on ProEv
while accelerating ? (I dunno) Cliff, educate us ! Take a 10C discharge.
Caps. They have caps there. 300 V nominal. 120 caps. 11 Farads. Sag is
huge and unusable unless they use seperate powerstage to drain them.
Then they can get the power up to required level. About 420 kW. For a
second. with batts. with no sag.
So.. It could provide the power for few seconds for the run. But after
that the caps need to recharge and it will affect on the battery
performance. Thou.. say theat you're just racing from lights to lights.
Like many do unfortunately. You could get the power out after every 5
minutes. for few seconds.
In constant driving it would give nice slack for the batts in short
peaks (passing another vehicle).
Insane concept and we really should see it on tracks to get something
else than sticky marketing-bull.
One thing was a bit cnfusing. The pictures do not seem to be from the
finished car. At least I could not see all the details said in the text.
Was this just to present the future cpncept that still is undone ?
I was also quite astonished about their BMS. Specs were spitting image
from ours from the Monaco event in 2005 at EVS21. Impressive.
-Jukka
David Dymaxion kirjoitti:
I agree, I want to see timeslips! However, I think they are just engaging in
marketing-speak that many companies do.
`
640 hp worth of motors, but the batteries only give ~700 Amps * 300 Volts =
~210 hp (with no sag figured in!)
Speedometers that read much faster than the car can go
Saying your car has a "0.6 MegaWatt controller" when the batteries are much
less powerful than that.
Calling a 0-60 mph in 18 seconds car "peppy"
Quoting flywheel horsepower instead of rear wheel horsepower
Quoting range and top speed in the same sentence, which makes people think the
car can do both at the same time.
Now for some complaints about Mr. Wayland's post: :)
First off, hats off to Mr. Wayland for actually putting rubber to pavement.
I'll be delighted if my conversion can come within 2 seconds of his 1/4 mile
time, with the same batteries.
0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that? Did you mean 4
seconds, or high 3 seconds maybe? That would still put it in Ferrari, Corvette,
and Tzero territory. The only street legal production car I have ever heard of
hitting the 2's is the Bugatti Veyron, a million dollar car.
The "under 5" seconds is a design spec, a goal for the engineers to hit. It is
not measured performance. Compare the specs on this car to the Tzero, and 4's, maybe even
high 3's, is believable (give me a measured time, though!). Given 700 Amps and 300 Volts,
it'll be making close to the same power as the Tzero.
People are acting like hub motors are solid depleted uranium. The stock mini
wheel and tire weighs 50 pounds (self sealing tires are heavy). Autocrossers
get this down to 17 pounds. The stock mini handles very well. Here is another
story: A Camaro or Mustang rear axle weighs about 200 lbs, and adds about 100
lbs of unsprung weight to each rear wheel! Even so, there are several Camaros
and Mustangs in my autocross club that regularly place very well -- the extra
unsprung weight doesn't seem to be hurting them too much (I estimate they are
at most 1% slower because of it).
Like the Fast and the Furious, and all those old cheesy drag racing movies, I
think this debate is best solved by a race! I'd love to see this mini run
against some NEDRA guys and do autocross at Battery Beach Burnout. May the best
design win.
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:48:47 AM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
peekay wrote:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060724.006/page/2/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
amazing specs ..160hp hub motors in EACH
wheel to give a total of 640hp .. 0 to 100 in under 5 seconds ..
What's amazing, is that anyone believes them. 640 hp? Give me a break!
If it 'really' has 640 hp, it should do 0-60 in 2 seconds and run a high
8 second - low 9 second 1/4 mile, not 'under 5' which suggests 5
seconds, and a 'not talked about' more than likely 14 second 1/4 mile.
In four years time, you think they could design away those goofy wheels
with their 'stuffed full of yellow concrete' look that stick too far out
at each corner! Evidently, they were so measurmerized about using hub
motors, it didn't matter what it took to put them in the car. Talk about
unsprung weight! They must have employed the same engineer who
'designed' the squeal'n Curtis controller (without any regard for the
end user of his ill-conceived product)...so bent on using a hub motors
at each wheel, with no regard for the aesthetics and end user effect.
Their 'serious research' managed to ruin the looks of the Mini, managed
to make it a $200,000 car, and managed to make it have terrible
performance for a four motor car with a touted 640hp...as I said, give
me a break! This kind of project only gives EVs a bad name.
Well, I sure could! The first improvement would be to tear it all apart
and start over. Get rid of whoever was in charge of the project, and get
someone who likes cars. Throw away all four of those goofy hub motors
that ruin handling, ruin the looks of the car, and add way too much
weight. Replace all of them with one single hi pro motor (AC or DC) in
the original engine location and use one controller, not four. Use A123
LiIon batteries instead of Li Pol that in order to give BIG amps need
those heavy expensive ultra caps, so you can throw them out, too.
The revised version would look like a Mini instead of a frog with
swollen appendages, it would weigh perhaps 800 - 1000 lbs. less, it
would travel farther per charge, it would have a real 250 hp or so (not
some marketeer's 640 hp), and it would rocket 0-60 in 4 seconds
flat...all at a fraction of the price. It would also be a proud
achievement that would garner praise for EVs, instead of an extremely
expensive, goofy looking engineer's dream that boasts of non-existent
'delivered horsepower'.
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