EV Digest 6554
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fwd: Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) AC Drives on Ebay
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor Mania Calendar (mostly OT, except for the Electric Motor part)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Lee's BMS?
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ok, time for some new batteries
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) NEW EV Info Site
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Change of glider
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Motor Mania Calendar (mostly OT,
except for the Electric Motor part)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: wall to road efficiency
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: hub motors and PML
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 120V to 112V temporarliy?
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EV Acquisition Continuum (was distributed charging and equalizing)
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV Acquisition Continuum (was distributed charging and equalizing)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
Item number: 260094665248
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an EV usage....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
At 06:06 PM 14/03/07 -0700, John wrote:
I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
Item number: 260094665248
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an EV usage....
G'day John, and All
I can speak with a bit of authority on this subject, having worked up a
couple of projects (one died, one is delayed but should go ahead about
June) where it is necessary to operate a standard industrial drive from a
DC source.
Allen Bradley drives aparently take some reference from the 3-phase coming
in and will not operate without that. What it is I don't know, as the
projects I have worked up needed unmodified drives. It may be a signal that
can be synthesized and fool the drive that all is well in the world and
operation can happen.
Other brands of drives run their fans from inbound AC (WEG drives come to
mind) so in order to operate them from DC the fans need to be changed.
Other drives (the ones we settled on for the project are Eletronica
Santerno drives, via NHP in Australia) are quite happy running from DC, as
long as the buss voltage stays within tolerance (440 to 750VDC for 415V AC
drives used). The project we have worked up requires DC support of 500kW
worth of drives during power fail to cover the start time of the backup
generator. This support is via the DC buss connections on the drives.
Industrial drives are not optimised for weight, so generally have steel
frames and large, consevatively sized air cooled heatsinks, etc. so are
heavier than they might otherwise be. Not only that but the drive needs to
be big enough for the largest amps that you are going to deliver.
You also need to have means to make the drive behave in torque mode rather
than speed mode - in speed mode if your foot slips off the throttle the
drive would regenerate as hard as it could go heading for zero RPM (nose
through windscreen).
Now you need a motor. EV AC motors are designed to run up to several
hundred Hz. To do this they are wound to be lower voltage, as doubling the
frequency doubles the required voltage (the current stays the same so the
horsepower doubles). So you need to take a 10 to 15hp inverter duty motor
that is wound to be 50V or so at 50 or 60Hz, so that when reved to 300Hz it
is now a 60hp (10hp) to 90hp (15hp) motor, requiring an AC voltage of 300V
which is a DC buss voltage of around 420V. The 1400RPM (50Hz) motor needs
to be strong enough to withstand 8400RPM, so it may be better to start with
a pysically larger 8-pole motor which would only be doing 4200RPM but weigh
more.
So to build an EV using industrial components can be done, not as light,
elegant or designed for the job as a surplus Siemens system, and possibly
dearer (and wouldn't have a 10-year warranty).
Need to know anything else?
Regards
[Technik] James
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I agree, I want to see timeslips! However, I think they are just engaging in
marketing-speak that many companies do.
`
640 hp worth of motors, but the batteries only give ~700 Amps * 300 Volts =
~210 hp (with no sag figured in!)
Speedometers that read much faster than the car can go
Saying your car has a "0.6 MegaWatt controller" when the batteries are much
less powerful than that.
Calling a 0-60 mph in 18 seconds car "peppy"
Quoting flywheel horsepower instead of rear wheel horsepower
Quoting range and top speed in the same sentence, which makes people think the
car can do both at the same time.
Now for some complaints about Mr. Wayland's post: :)
First off, hats off to Mr. Wayland for actually putting rubber to pavement.
I'll be delighted if my conversion can come within 2 seconds of his 1/4 mile
time, with the same batteries.
0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that? Did you mean 4
seconds, or high 3 seconds maybe? That would still put it in Ferrari, Corvette,
and Tzero territory. The only street legal production car I have ever heard of
hitting the 2's is the Bugatti Veyron, a million dollar car.
The "under 5" seconds is a design spec, a goal for the engineers to hit. It is
not measured performance. Compare the specs on this car to the Tzero, and 4's,
maybe even high 3's, is believable (give me a measured time, though!). Given
700 Amps and 300 Volts, it'll be making close to the same power as the Tzero.
People are acting like hub motors are solid depleted uranium. The stock mini
wheel and tire weighs 50 pounds (self sealing tires are heavy). Autocrossers
get this down to 17 pounds. The stock mini handles very well. Here is another
story: A Camaro or Mustang rear axle weighs about 200 lbs, and adds about 100
lbs of unsprung weight to each rear wheel! Even so, there are several Camaros
and Mustangs in my autocross club that regularly place very well -- the extra
unsprung weight doesn't seem to be hurting them too much (I estimate they are
at most 1% slower because of it).
Like the Fast and the Furious, and all those old cheesy drag racing movies, I
think this debate is best solved by a race! I'd love to see this mini run
against some NEDRA guys and do autocross at Battery Beach Burnout. May the best
design win.
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:48:47 AM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
peekay wrote:
>http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060724.006/page/2/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
>
>amazing specs ..160hp hub motors in EACH
>wheel to give a total of 640hp .. 0 to 100 in under 5 seconds ..
What's amazing, is that anyone believes them. 640 hp? Give me a break!
If it 'really' has 640 hp, it should do 0-60 in 2 seconds and run a high
8 second - low 9 second 1/4 mile, not 'under 5' which suggests 5
seconds, and a 'not talked about' more than likely 14 second 1/4 mile.
In four years time, you think they could design away those goofy wheels
with their 'stuffed full of yellow concrete' look that stick too far out
at each corner! Evidently, they were so measurmerized about using hub
motors, it didn't matter what it took to put them in the car. Talk about
unsprung weight! They must have employed the same engineer who
'designed' the squeal'n Curtis controller (without any regard for the
end user of his ill-conceived product)...so bent on using a hub motors
at each wheel, with no regard for the aesthetics and end user effect.
Their 'serious research' managed to ruin the looks of the Mini, managed
to make it a $200,000 car, and managed to make it have terrible
performance for a four motor car with a touted 640hp...as I said, give
me a break! This kind of project only gives EVs a bad name.
Well, I sure could! The first improvement would be to tear it all apart
and start over. Get rid of whoever was in charge of the project, and get
someone who likes cars. Throw away all four of those goofy hub motors
that ruin handling, ruin the looks of the car, and add way too much
weight. Replace all of them with one single hi pro motor (AC or DC) in
the original engine location and use one controller, not four. Use A123
LiIon batteries instead of Li Pol that in order to give BIG amps need
those heavy expensive ultra caps, so you can throw them out, too.
The revised version would look like a Mini instead of a frog with
swollen appendages, it would weigh perhaps 800 - 1000 lbs. less, it
would travel farther per charge, it would have a real 250 hp or so (not
some marketeer's 640 hp), and it would rocket 0-60 in 4 seconds
flat...all at a fraction of the price. It would also be a proud
achievement that would garner praise for EVs, instead of an extremely
expensive, goofy looking engineer's dream that boasts of non-existent
'delivered horsepower'.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
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Hey all
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dive in, guyz! Other reveiling pix? This could
> be a Fun thing?
Well I could strip down a motor and spread it out over
my bench, that kind of shot Bob, LMAO! I hope you all
know that when I talk about throwing a little love on
a motor it's the heart and soul kind right??
All kidding aside, I had talked about an EV calender
last fall. I got a few people to respond but not as
many as I hoped 8^( I got more than enough of my
stuff to do one but I thought it would be better to
add other EV related clubs and groups, people. Maybe
a nice where to go to get started, ect. The months a
NEDRA event was to run would make a nice sub-theme.
Anyway my thought's were who's gonna buy a Hi-Torque
Calender? If I can get 12 people to come forward and
model their stuff, I'd sell at least 12, LMAO!
So besides a possible future Hi-Torque pin-up poster I
think a general EV calender would be really cool.
Something that says community, not me me me... Wait a
minute that does sound kinda good, ROF!
How many groups are out there?
How many NEDRA or other EVent go on each year?
What other chunk of info could be posted, or themes
used for a given month?
In general what would you want to see?
This would be fun, I'd be into it.
I know I'd like to have an EV calender 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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I was looking through the archives and didn't see any specific list
of what all this stuff would do and what would be needed for how many
batteries and whatnot. Price as well? Could someone list this info
off again if they've got it handy?
Thanks much, Ian
On Mar 13, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
brian baumel wrote:
hello everyone,
is there an order in the process for some of Lee
Hart's BMS boards?? if so I'd be interested! I'll need
two relay boards (string of 10+1)and naturally the
control board. who do I make the check out to and for
how much? I may need a little help in the programming,
but I've done some PIC programming before...
Yes, there's an order in the works. I'm trying to work out the
final details, and figure out how many to order, and what features
people want/need. Stay tuned!
What would help is if interested parties send me an email
describing what they want;
1. Bare boards only (with schematics and parts lists)
2. Parts kits (boards with parts, which you assemble yourself)
3. Assembled boards (which you just need to be put into a box)
On the software side, I don't have the time/resources to supply
more than a demo program (what I'm using for my own EV). You will
need to change the program to suit your battery pack (number of
batteries, voltage per battery), the balancing method you want to
use (if different from mine), and other auxiliary functions (like
temperature measurement, charger control, fan control, heater
control, etc.) So, I would suggest that you buy your own BASIC
Stamp with its development kit, so you can make these changes.
Time: This is a side project for me. I have a backlog of other
contracts ahead of this one that I need to finish first, so
delivery is probably going to be 2-3 months.
Note: Just saying you want one won't make it so. Serious orders
only! It's too expensive a project for me to order all the parts on
the CHANCE that you MIGHT buy it. Once I know how many we need,
then I can quote a price. When folks pay for it, I place the orders.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Jeff,
Keep me posted on what you come up with. I'm in the market for a new pack
and trying to keep an open mind.
Matt
On 3/13/07, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Since lots of businesses seem to completely ignore email nowadays. I
need to take time from work to give them a call. They haven't responded
to a single email in 6 months, Makes me think they are not in business
anymore.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eric,
I hate to be the one to burst your bubble but it seems your ability at
researching things on the web concerning EVs is a bit lacking. If you had
actually read our FAQs on our site at www.evparts.com you would have found
about the EV List. It is the first thing to come up. I applaud you for your
interest in EVs and you are correct that as our other sources of fuels are
depleted more and more people will turn to the EV alternative. Thanks for
your letter and please check out the top source for information on EVs on
the web and good luck on your endeavor. We can never have too much EV
information and links out there.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Parts Info" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: Contact us!
Name (Company Name): Eric M. Bruno
Address:
:
Phone:
Fax:
Mobile Phone:
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Authorization for data handling:
Acceptance of advertising material: YES
Message:
Hello EVParts.com
My name is Eric M. Bruno, and I am interested in EVs and other alternative
powered vehicles. A few months ago I decided that I wanted to create an
EV, so I went online and researched for help in designing the motor
system. I discovered there is not a forum or an isolated site dedicated
to EVs, with the exception of your mailing list. So an associate and I
decided to create a forum site, much like those of www.vwvortex.com and
www.northamericanmotoring.com, where EV enthusiasts can get together and
discuss designs, ideas, new ways of doing things and the like. Since your
company seems to have domination of the EV following, I would like to
offer you a sponsorship on the site. You would be a sponsor of one of the
primary EV forums, likely the one that is most popular. A banner will
also be flown throughout the site (much like the vwvortex site) with links
to your site, and members will also be encouraged to patron your site.
Advantages of creating a forum type website over your mailing list will be
ease of use, search features, categorized information, and many tech
articles that people will be able to take a look at quickly for reference
and a more extensive FAQ section. Both my associate and I will also
feature articles, press releases, opinions and editorials, and other news
on the front page about EVs, Hybrids, as well as other alternative fuel
technologies.
I believe that now is the time to get on the ground floor and become the
webâ?Ts number one source for everything EV and alternative fuel because
this is where our world is turning to as our fuels are depleting.
Thank you for your time
Eric M. Bruno
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date: 3/13/2007
4:51 PM
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--- Begin Message ---
It seems as I have a small change of plans.
Last year I sold a Citroen BX and bought a Xantia and I was planning
on converting first a Citroen GS as a test and then convert the Xantia.
It turns out the Xantia is way too heavy to convert with the batteries
I can buy down here and the GS is too old to get parts for. The final
straw was a call from the friend I sold the BX to: 'would you buy the
car back cheaper than what I sold it to you?, my wife fell in love
with a Subaru Outback and bought it. I have no parking spot for it
any more...'
So I bought the BX back cheap and the GS is probably going to
be sold to another friend.
I guess I was to fast putting up the GS on the evalbum :) but if done
right, I may have the only converted BX in the world... or is there
one already?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
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I'll buy one! You gotta put in a good pic of the siamese twins for the
centerfold. EVen if you didn't want to do a full on
calendar (but I know you want to) is to post a Hi-Torque Featured Motor of the
Month (really Motor of the 2-Months) in the Current
EVents newsletter from the EAA. Back to the calendar though, maybe a full on
EV shot with a pic of the motor inset with its own
words of wit by Jim "you know how I am and you keep giving me ammo" Husted :-O
You must not have seen my last post, or else your wife really did cut you off
from talking to me. I guess I'll have to tear a
motor apart to get any more attention.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
>
> This would be fun, I'd be into it.
> I know I'd like to have an EV calender 8^)
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> It's here! Your new message!
> Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:42 AM 3/14/2007, you wrote:
--- Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Early results with my conversion are a bit
> disappointing. I am only getting 2 miles per kwh.
...
> at $.15 per kwh it cost me $2.25 for 30 miles.
My S-10 gets approximately 530-550Wh/mi wall to wheels.
Not sure what your conversion is but if it's a typical
street vehicle and not optimized for lightness, it
sounds like your findings are in the ballpark. Factor
in your cost per mile on batteries, and you'll be
doubly disappointed. 'bout all you can do is optimize
what you have (LRR tires, blocked grill, front end alignment,
unecessary weight shedding, etc) and it is what it is.
Don't forget to subtract the oil changes, tune-ups, muffler
replacements, radiators, water pumps, etc. that a gas version would
normally go thrrough.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
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Yep... 10% of build cost up to $2500 rebate ($25,000 build cost), or 20% of
purchase of a new vehicle up to $5000 and that includes NG powered cars, it
appears. It looks like you need to complete some paperwork in order to
qualify, however.
http://www.gaepd.org/Files_PDF/forms/apb/levzev_fs.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
> Well, I just got a $2500 tax credit on my Georgia taxes.
>
> You have to contact the Gerogia dept. of natural resources, environmental
protection division, mobile and area source program - LEV/ZEV certification.
The address is 4244 international parkway, suite 136, Atlanta, GA 31354.
The phone number is 404-363-7028. I spoke with James Udi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica which is running on 15 8V Trojan batteries
(120v). For almost a year now, I have been using the car to commute
to work in Seattle, at first going about 25miles round trip, and for
the past 6 months, 50 miles round trip. It has worked great.
We recently moved into an apartment, and there is no place to plug in my car :(
The apartment move is temporary, eventually we are moving from Seattle
up to Orcas Island, so until that move happens, I decided to loan the
car to a friend of mine on Orcas who was driving his desiel truck to
work each day (20 miles round trip).
In Seattle for the most part my commute was fairly flat, yet my speeds
were in the 50-65mph range. On Orcas, top speed is about 35, but more
hills. A couple of rather large ones. My friend used the car for a
week without any problems, and loved it.
But, yesterday on the way back to work going up a longish hill, the
fusable link in the rear battery compartment blew, and took out one of
the battery posts with it (I didn't have it shielded very well, oops).
Luckily the local cop (the only one on the island), came along a few
minutes later by chance, pushed him to the top of the hill, and then
gave him a ride home.
Now, for my question. Is it OK to just bypass that one battery (and
run on 112V), just to limp home? Complete specs on the car can be
found on the ev album (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/754).
My second question is what is the best approach to dealing with longer
hills and the increased heat generated by running high amps for
several minutes? I'm thinking about my next EV, and wonder if going
with a higher voltage system would be better for the hills. Is AC any
better than DC? Or in the end is it just the same amount of energy
going through the wires? Is there a better alternative to fusable
links? When they blow it sort of leaves you stranded.
Thanks
Chris Sutton
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I requested pricing from PML a few months back for a wheel motor of pretty
lean specifications, and got back a quote of $17k per wheel and %50 shipping
charges. At $25k per wheel, I wouldn't exactly say they "sell them" to EV
folks. I cant imagine a large market at that price, epsecially if you need
two at a minimum...Could get an AC-150 soup to nuts and a decent LiPo pack
for that dough. Id like to know of anyone that has purchased a single wheel
from them (beside a govt subsidized R&D program along with their $600
hammers of course cuz they dont count:).
----- Original Message -----
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:09 AM
Subject: hub motors and PML
i guess it is only fair to acknowledge that PML is a
proper company which has evolved from printed pancake
motors to hub motors .. being an english company, they
would not be exisiting if they didn't make what they claim
they DO have a wide variety of motors .. round long bodied
and hub types too
----- Original Message -----
From: "david woolard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
In support of PML I have to say that their BLDC wheel
motors do seem to be quite sophisticated. They also do
sell their motors to individuals, unlike a few other
EV technology companies.
___________________________________________________________
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to
use" - The Wall Street Journal
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you really get 80 km range???
If so, thats really good. And to what DOD is that?
On 15/03/07, Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have a 1974 Toyota Celica which is running on 15 8V Trojan batteries
(120v). For almost a year now, I have been using the car to commute
to work in Seattle, at first going about 25miles round trip, and for
the past 6 months, 50 miles round trip. It has worked great.
We recently moved into an apartment, and there is no place to plug in my
car :(
The apartment move is temporary, eventually we are moving from Seattle
up to Orcas Island, so until that move happens, I decided to loan the
car to a friend of mine on Orcas who was driving his desiel truck to
work each day (20 miles round trip).
In Seattle for the most part my commute was fairly flat, yet my speeds
were in the 50-65mph range. On Orcas, top speed is about 35, but more
hills. A couple of rather large ones. My friend used the car for a
week without any problems, and loved it.
But, yesterday on the way back to work going up a longish hill, the
fusable link in the rear battery compartment blew, and took out one of
the battery posts with it (I didn't have it shielded very well, oops).
Luckily the local cop (the only one on the island), came along a few
minutes later by chance, pushed him to the top of the hill, and then
gave him a ride home.
Now, for my question. Is it OK to just bypass that one battery (and
run on 112V), just to limp home? Complete specs on the car can be
found on the ev album (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/754).
My second question is what is the best approach to dealing with longer
hills and the increased heat generated by running high amps for
several minutes? I'm thinking about my next EV, and wonder if going
with a higher voltage system would be better for the hills. Is AC any
better than DC? Or in the end is it just the same amount of energy
going through the wires? Is there a better alternative to fusable
links? When they blow it sort of leaves you stranded.
Thanks
Chris Sutton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David, I really enjoyed your post. It is not often these days that I get
to read a post that is factual, and fun to read. Something that gives a
person something to ponder, A pause in this normal onslaught of mindless
theoretical babble. In defense of Mr. Wayland, he was talking about very
quick cars that actually have 640 hp or more, not dog slow cars like
Ferraris, Corvettes, and the T-Zero. I actually think Mr. Wayland might have
been refering to supercars. Mr. Wayland knows more specs in his little
finger on performance cars than I have in my entire brain. But, for instance
the Saleen S7 with a claimed 750 horsepower is the only street car I know of
in the 2 second range at and it takes an agonizingly long time to get to 60,
at 2.8 seconds. So I guess You are right in countering Mr. Wayland's claims.
He might have been a little overzealous having been confronted with such an
enormous load of bull shit at one sitting. Most people will only be able to
take a few hundred pounds of it at once but when it becomes tons I think it
affects a persons judgment. I personally will let him slide on this one. As
you now, I am being very kind here as I can not stand hardly any level of
BS. By the way, for people who are really into the performance of supercars
here is a comparison of the Saleen against others:
http://www.saleen.com/saleen_s7_performance.htm I have this strange fantasy
that an electric will eventually annihilate them all in performance. I base
this all on the principle of efficiency.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
I agree, I want to see timeslips! However, I think they are just engaging
in marketing-speak that many companies do.
`
640 hp worth of motors, but the batteries only give ~700 Amps * 300 Volts
= ~210 hp (with no sag figured in!)
Speedometers that read much faster than the car can go
Saying your car has a "0.6 MegaWatt controller" when the batteries are
much less powerful than that.
Calling a 0-60 mph in 18 seconds car "peppy"
Quoting flywheel horsepower instead of rear wheel horsepower
Quoting range and top speed in the same sentence, which makes people think
the car can do both at the same time.
Now for some complaints about Mr. Wayland's post: :)
First off, hats off to Mr. Wayland for actually putting rubber to
pavement. I'll be delighted if my conversion can come within 2 seconds of
his 1/4 mile time, with the same batteries.
0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that? Did you mean 4
seconds, or high 3 seconds maybe? That would still put it in Ferrari,
Corvette, and Tzero territory. The only street legal production car I have
ever heard of hitting the 2's is the Bugatti Veyron, a million dollar car.
The "under 5" seconds is a design spec, a goal for the engineers to hit.
It is not measured performance. Compare the specs on this car to the
Tzero, and 4's, maybe even high 3's, is believable (give me a measured
time, though!). Given 700 Amps and 300 Volts, it'll be making close to the
same power as the Tzero.
People are acting like hub motors are solid depleted uranium. The stock
mini wheel and tire weighs 50 pounds (self sealing tires are heavy).
Autocrossers get this down to 17 pounds. The stock mini handles very well.
Here is another story: A Camaro or Mustang rear axle weighs about 200 lbs,
and adds about 100 lbs of unsprung weight to each rear wheel! Even so,
there are several Camaros and Mustangs in my autocross club that regularly
place very well -- the extra unsprung weight doesn't seem to be hurting
them too much (I estimate they are at most 1% slower because of it).
Like the Fast and the Furious, and all those old cheesy drag racing
movies, I think this debate is best solved by a race! I'd love to see this
mini run against some NEDRA guys and do autocross at Battery Beach
Burnout. May the best design win.
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:48:47 AM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
peekay wrote:
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsID/2060724.006/page/2/country/ecf/lang/eng/mini/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
amazing specs ..160hp hub motors in EACH
wheel to give a total of 640hp .. 0 to 100 in under 5 seconds ..
What's amazing, is that anyone believes them. 640 hp? Give me a break!
If it 'really' has 640 hp, it should do 0-60 in 2 seconds and run a high
8 second - low 9 second 1/4 mile, not 'under 5' which suggests 5
seconds, and a 'not talked about' more than likely 14 second 1/4 mile.
In four years time, you think they could design away those goofy wheels
with their 'stuffed full of yellow concrete' look that stick too far out
at each corner! Evidently, they were so measurmerized about using hub
motors, it didn't matter what it took to put them in the car. Talk about
unsprung weight! They must have employed the same engineer who
'designed' the squeal'n Curtis controller (without any regard for the
end user of his ill-conceived product)...so bent on using a hub motors
at each wheel, with no regard for the aesthetics and end user effect.
Their 'serious research' managed to ruin the looks of the Mini, managed
to make it a $200,000 car, and managed to make it have terrible
performance for a four motor car with a touted 640hp...as I said, give
me a break! This kind of project only gives EVs a bad name.
Well, I sure could! The first improvement would be to tear it all apart
and start over. Get rid of whoever was in charge of the project, and get
someone who likes cars. Throw away all four of those goofy hub motors
that ruin handling, ruin the looks of the car, and add way too much
weight. Replace all of them with one single hi pro motor (AC or DC) in
the original engine location and use one controller, not four. Use A123
LiIon batteries instead of Li Pol that in order to give BIG amps need
those heavy expensive ultra caps, so you can throw them out, too.
The revised version would look like a Mini instead of a frog with
swollen appendages, it would weigh perhaps 800 - 1000 lbs. less, it
would travel farther per charge, it would have a real 250 hp or so (not
some marketeer's 640 hp), and it would rocket 0-60 in 4 seconds
flat...all at a fraction of the price. It would also be a proud
achievement that would garner praise for EVs, instead of an extremely
expensive, goofy looking engineer's dream that boasts of non-existent
'delivered horsepower'.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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4:51 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well said David. How about a nice graphic of your continuum? I took a quick
stab at a strawman ven diagram of what you described, for those visual
learners out there. Its in pdf format at
http://www.harveyev.com/misc_docs/EV_Acquistion_Continuum.pdf
Interested in feedback on how accurate you all think it is.
Caveat: I didn't intentionally leave anyone off. If you think I missed some
glaring examples, please let me know.
Regards, Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: distributed charging and equalizing
On 13 Mar 2007 at 22:49, Al wrote:
Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
I'm going to try to answer this question indirectly.
As I see it, there are two directions when approaching EV conversion.
They
exist at the ends of a continuum.
At one end, let's arbitrarily say the left end, is a fully assembled EV
such
as the NMG or an AC Propulsion E-Box. A little further along you find
complete conversion kits from Electro Automotive and Canadian EV.
Somewhere
a bit further are the highly integrated and fool-resistant (but not
foolproof!) components such as AC Propulsion's and the Brusa and Siemens
drive and charging systems. Then come the mix-and-match but
tried-and-true
combinations of DC motors, controllers, and chargers. A little further
along we find used and surplus components. That range carries to the
other
end of the continuum. There we find people scrounging through scrapyards,
trolling government surplus sites on the web, dumpster diving behind motor
shops and industrial vehicle dealers, and testing old golf car battery
cores
one by one in the snow and drizzle outside battery shops.
There are exceptions, but in general :
The dollars start out big at the left and get small at the right.
The amount of time required starts tiny at the left and gets huge at the
right.
All good so far, but regrettably the experience and skill required also
start small at the left and get large at the right. It's regrettable
because many people starting out in the EV hobby have little experience
and
skill, but also don't want to spend much money.
There's a way to get off that continuum, to sort of cheat the rules : Buy
a
used conversion that someone else has done. Except when gas prices are
through the roof, a used conversion usually sells for less than the
components would be if bought new (sometimes even cheaper then used
components). However, the amount of time, skill, and experience needed to
get it working is far less than doing your own conversion.
A used conversion will almost certainly come to you with dead or nearly
dead
batteries. Replace them with identical types. Fix it up, drive it,
analyze
it, improve it. Make mistakes and correct them. We'll help you.
A used conversion may not be optimal, and it certainly won't be done the
way
you'd do it. But by the time you've driven it and tinkered with it for a
few years, you'll have a much better idea of what you'd do differently in
your own conversion - and how and why. You'll also have more skills and
maybe even more money. Then you'll be in a better position to figure out
where on that continuum I mentioned you really fall when you tackle your
own
conversion.
When - or IF. You might end up like me. I've never done a full
conversion
and don't especially want to. A conversion is a huge time commitment, and
I
have other things to do with my spare time. I'd rather let someone else
do
the heavy lifting - pulling out the greasy bits, doing the machine work,
fitting the motor onto the trans and into the chassis. I prefer fiddling
with controllers and chargers, reworking battery layout and wiring, and so
on. Heck, I'd even hire some of >that< out if I had a Mike Slominski type
EV mechanic nearby - but I don't.
So give it a try. You might find that, like me, you're really an editor
more than a creator. You might find that you actually LIKE building on
others' work and improving it. And if not, you'll learn about how to do a
conversion and make an EV go, including things that you'll never find in
any
book.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would transpose the DIY kits and the Mid and High Range Kit Components all
three across a vertical line between them. I think
the more complete DIY kits might take less expertise than just getting the kit
components. i.e. Electroauto will make you an
adaptor plate and battery boxes, Netgain and Cafe Electric don't.
Good graphic though :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Harvey
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: EV Acquisition Continuum (was distributed charging and
> equalizing)
>
>
> Well said David. How about a nice graphic of your continuum? I took a quick
> stab at a strawman ven diagram of what you described, for those visual
> learners out there. Its in pdf format at
> http://www.harveyev.com/misc_docs/EV_Acquistion_Continuum.pdf
>
> Interested in feedback on how accurate you all think it is.
>
> Caveat: I didn't intentionally leave anyone off. If you think I missed some
> glaring examples, please let me know.
>
> Regards, Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:05 PM
> Subject: Re: distributed charging and equalizing
>
>
> > On 13 Mar 2007 at 22:49, Al wrote:
> >
> >> Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
> >
> > I'm going to try to answer this question indirectly.
> >
> > As I see it, there are two directions when approaching EV conversion.
> > They
> > exist at the ends of a continuum.
> >
> > At one end, let's arbitrarily say the left end, is a fully assembled EV
> > such
> > as the NMG or an AC Propulsion E-Box. A little further along you find
> > complete conversion kits from Electro Automotive and Canadian EV.
> > Somewhere
> > a bit further are the highly integrated and fool-resistant (but not
> > foolproof!) components such as AC Propulsion's and the Brusa and Siemens
> > drive and charging systems. Then come the mix-and-match but
> > tried-and-true
> > combinations of DC motors, controllers, and chargers. A little further
> > along we find used and surplus components. That range carries to the
> > other
> > end of the continuum. There we find people scrounging through scrapyards,
> > trolling government surplus sites on the web, dumpster diving behind motor
> > shops and industrial vehicle dealers, and testing old golf car battery
> > cores
> > one by one in the snow and drizzle outside battery shops.
> >
> > There are exceptions, but in general :
> >
> > The dollars start out big at the left and get small at the right.
> >
> > The amount of time required starts tiny at the left and gets huge at the
> > right.
> >
> > All good so far, but regrettably the experience and skill required also
> > start small at the left and get large at the right. It's regrettable
> > because many people starting out in the EV hobby have little experience
> > and
> > skill, but also don't want to spend much money.
> >
> > There's a way to get off that continuum, to sort of cheat the rules : Buy
> > a
> > used conversion that someone else has done. Except when gas prices are
> > through the roof, a used conversion usually sells for less than the
> > components would be if bought new (sometimes even cheaper then used
> > components). However, the amount of time, skill, and experience needed to
> > get it working is far less than doing your own conversion.
> >
> > A used conversion will almost certainly come to you with dead or nearly
> > dead
> > batteries. Replace them with identical types. Fix it up, drive it,
> > analyze
> > it, improve it. Make mistakes and correct them. We'll help you.
> >
> > A used conversion may not be optimal, and it certainly won't be done the
> > way
> > you'd do it. But by the time you've driven it and tinkered with it for a
> > few years, you'll have a much better idea of what you'd do differently in
> > your own conversion - and how and why. You'll also have more skills and
> > maybe even more money. Then you'll be in a better position to figure out
> > where on that continuum I mentioned you really fall when you tackle your
> > own
> > conversion.
> >
> > When - or IF. You might end up like me. I've never done a full
> > conversion
> > and don't especially want to. A conversion is a huge time commitment, and
> > I
> > have other things to do with my spare time. I'd rather let someone else
> > do
> > the heavy lifting - pulling out the greasy bits, doing the machine work,
> > fitting the motor onto the trans and into the chassis. I prefer fiddling
> > with controllers and chargers, reworking battery layout and wiring, and so
> > on. Heck, I'd even hire some of >that< out if I had a Mike Slominski type
> > EV mechanic nearby - but I don't.
> >
> > So give it a try. You might find that, like me, you're really an editor
> > more than a creator. You might find that you actually LIKE building on
> > others' work and improving it. And if not, you'll learn about how to do a
> > conversion and make an EV go, including things that you'll never find in
> > any
> > book.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
