EV Digest 6557
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: wall to road efficiency
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) shunt motor controller?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: shunt motor controller?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: shunt motor controller?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: shunt motor controller?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: dc/dc
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: shunt motor controller?
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: dc/dc
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Dual Controller/motors
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Single RPM Sensor for Dual Motors
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dual Controller/motors
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dual Controller/motors
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Transistor springs / clamps
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 640hp Mini
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Dual Controller/motors
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: wall to road efficiency
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Transistor springs / clamps
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 640hp Mini
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) custome made "hub" motors
by "Scott Stadler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) BLDC Motor Availavility Was: Dual Controller/motors
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVs are a valid choice. So are ICEs.
They don't compare very well -- why must we slam one to appreciate the
other?
I'm not. But people tend to not make apples-to-apples
comparisons. For example, they constantly want to include the
pollution from electric power plants in the EV's "emissions", but
DON'T include the pollution from the gas refineries.
Having spent a lot of years in a gas car repair shop, I have a pretty
good idea what annual maintenance costs are (or were ten years ago
when we quit) for a typical gas car. A 6,000 mile major service and
tune USED to be $150.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I'm working on my metro conversion project.
I got this g29 aircraft generator which is a shunt
motor.
I am in the process of building my own adapter plate
and shaft coupler.
I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
without the clutch.
One big question is can I use one of those curtis
series controllers with this shunt motor? If not are
there any shunt motor controllers out there?
Another question. I took the nut of the rear of the
G29, and this long metal shaft came out, and now I
have a small 16 teeth spline sticking out. Is that
what people have been mounting the flywheel on?
It seems I could make a new shaft that would have a
better connecting piece?
Again thanks in advance!
____________________________________________________________________________________
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with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of the newer generation drives up to 3-5 hp are able to work off
single phase input. I have even seen a couple that claimed to work off 120
volt single phase input for under 1 hp. I have a couple on my lathe and
drill press running off of 230 volt 1 phase and I like them for that.
typically they are de-rated with the single phase input since only a portion
of the input rectifier is being used.
The problem is still the size is not large enough and we don't have any AC
to show to the drive input. Actually it would be best if we could remove
the input bridge rectifier and filter since we are talking about just
feeding the DC buss directly.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
"The Skunk" http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Nichols" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:49 AM
Subject: RE: AC Drives on Ebay
I have worked with these drives and some years back I had wired a next
generation unit to a Bridgeport Mill and ran it off 240V single phase. I
simply added a second phase wire to the 3rd leg and this effectively worked
to give a voltage input for all 3 phases. The motor was rated at 208V 3
phase at 2hp it worked great and gave me a simple speed control.
Karl Nichols
Phoenix, AZ
05 Prius
Looking for first full EV
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC Drives on Ebay
From the nameplate of the drive shown and the size of the cabinet those
appear to be about 1 HP drives. The 1333 AB drive is about 5 or 6 series
old and are probably early 1990s vintage.
As James mentioned the AB drives have firmware that checks for incoming
phase loss and I haven't found a simple way to fool it into thinking the
incoming lines are there.
I have been asking every industrial drives distributer I deal with about
using their drives with a DC input and have not had much positive feedback.
I was able to talk to another one today at a seminar and he actually was
encouraging so I will see what he is able to come up with. He actually
admitted to doing a conversion in college back in the early 90s so he may be
more sympathetic to the problem.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
"The Skunk" http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=751
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: AC Drives on Ebay
I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
Item number: 260094665248
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an EV usage....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alltrax has a line of shunt motor controllers although they only go up to 48
volts.
http://www.alltraxinc.com/Products_DCX.html
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: shunt motor controller?
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 11:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
Hello
I'm working on my metro conversion project.
I got this g29 aircraft generator which is a shunt
motor.
I am in the process of building my own adapter plate
and shaft coupler.
I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
without the clutch.
One big question is can I use one of those curtis
series controllers with this shunt motor? If not are
there any shunt motor controllers out there?
Another question. I took the nut of the rear of the
G29, and this long metal shaft came out, and now I
have a small 16 teeth spline sticking out. Is that
what people have been mounting the flywheel on?
It seems I could make a new shaft that would have a
better connecting piece?
Again thanks in advance!
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
> without the clutch.
You may want to rethink that, trying to shift without
a clutch is not a pleasant experience for either the
driver or the transmission. It's worth the trouble
to retain the clutch.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
About the controller. I have used a Curtis 48V,275A series controller on a
compound motor leaving original motor field connections intact. Been working
fine for over 10 yrs on a old Sears lawn tractor. But I've never tried that
controller on a shunt motor. At least a compound motor has some field in
series with the armature. Guess I'd worry about the shunt motor without any
series field having such a low inductance that the current will rise so fast
that the controller won't handle it. Also, if you leave the shunt field across
the armature connections, on start up, high current and low voltage from
controller, the field will also be low, meaning low torque and low back emf,
meaning higher currents for longer time.
Well, if you can follow that, it might work, then again?????
I don't think they actually make a shunt motor controller, but do make a
separately excited motor controller (SepEx). These are made to controller
armatures with the low inducatnce and would work on a shunt motor. The SepEx
controller has separate terminals to connect the field. Usually, the SepEx
motor has a much lower resistance field than a shunt motor, so the SepEx
controller can over excite the field at high armature currents. I suspect you
could program (or tune) a SepEx controller to run the shunt motor. Possibly
reconnect the fields (like from series to parallel) to lower field resistance.
Sevcon, as well as Curtis, makes SepEx controllers. Sevcon is less $. I've
used both on SepEx motors.
Another way, if you connect the shunt field separately to the battery, then
the motor (which would be just the armature) should resemble a PM motor. They
do make PM motor controllers. But I am not sure they would be powerful enough
for you.
Good luck.
Jeff
mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello
I'm working on my metro conversion project.
I got this g29 aircraft generator which is a shunt
motor.
I am in the process of building my own adapter plate
and shaft coupler.
I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
without the clutch.
One big question is can I use one of those curtis
series controllers with this shunt motor? If not are
there any shunt motor controllers out there?
Another question. I took the nut of the rear of the
G29, and this long metal shaft came out, and now I
have a small 16 teeth spline sticking out. Is that
what people have been mounting the flywheel on?
It seems I could make a new shaft that would have a
better connecting piece?
Again thanks in advance!
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
That's a pretty big one. If nobody has one for you, you could use a series
motor controller with output inductor.
Jeff
dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
does any one know where to get a dc/dc converter that can handle around 150
amp cont and 500 amp peak from a 48 volt source converting to 36 volt?
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
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--- Begin Message ---
I was going to use a g-32 for my project vw cabriolet until I figured
the range I needed and some of my commuting is on a highway. I changed
my plans just before I started working on my project. Now I am looking
at 144V pack with a Netgain Impulse9. I am undecided on the controller
at the moment. So I will soon be selling my J&H g-32.
Direct drive will not work due to the small RPM range of the g-29. The
G-32 is about 3000 RPM at 30v with an idle somewhere around 700RPM if I
remember right. I have the specs at home.
Using a PWM controller and disconnecting the shunt would result in an
inefficient series motor. A 6.7" prestolite or an ADC 6.7 would be more
efficient.
I was planning to do the following for a controller:
All you need is a rheostat that can handle about 10 amps to control the
speed. Perhaps a parallel/series split battery pack to run at 36v/72v.
Sort of Lo/Hi speed range type of thing. Have it in 36v (parallel)mode
for in town driving and for charging (less expensive chargers). Switch
to 72v (series mode) for 45+ mph.
> Stephen Paschke
> AR Daemon, DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: shunt motor controller?
Hello
I'm working on my metro conversion project.
I got this g29 aircraft generator which is a shunt
motor.
I am in the process of building my own adapter plate
and shaft coupler.
I was thinking about direct drive, and shifting
without the clutch.
One big question is can I use one of those curtis
series controllers with this shunt motor? If not are
there any shunt motor controllers out there?
Another question. I took the nut of the rear of the
G29, and this long metal shaft came out, and now I
have a small 16 teeth spline sticking out. Is that
what people have been mounting the flywheel on?
It seems I could make a new shaft that would have a
better connecting piece?
Again thanks in advance!
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know this has been mentioned on this list before and I have mentioned Bob
from time to time with quotes of his. This is a great video from You Tube
that I think is a must see. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ZquJIolvY
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Easiest thing that comes to mind is an array of Vicor VI-200 modules.
These are commonly available on Ebay and surplus sites. These modules
are parallelizable for whatever load you need. _Important_: There are
two types of these modules: controllers and boosters. You only need one
control module to drive several boosters. Control modules can be
boosters (slaves), but they're more expensive.
VI-23J-*U is a 200W 48V to 36V DC/DC converter where * is E, C, I or M
depending on the temp range needed.
VI-B3J-*U is the booster module.
For the 5.4Kw you mentioned, you'd need 1 control module and 26
boosters. You'd need to supply about 7KW (145A @ 48V) in to get your
5.4KW out, assuming worst-case efficiency of 78%. You would need to
heat sink and mount all of them, naturally.
http://vicr.com/products/dc-dc/converters/dc-dc_converters/
This is just one option of many.
Have you considered a motor / gen set?
dale henderson wrote:
does any one know where to get a dc/dc converter that can handle around 150 amp
cont and 500 amp peak from a 48 volt source converting to 36 volt?
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Has anyone useddual controllers/motors in a vehicle?
If so, how do you
manage it? If you usedual motors with one for each
powered wheel, how do you
manage things likedifferential control?
I am looking atusing two Curtis or alltrax controllers
which actually work
out to be cheaperthan a larger controller, but am
trying to work out how to
synch them to worktogether, and wondering if anyone
else uses that setup!
Cheers
Rod
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
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http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I notice the Zilla has inputs for two RPM sensors, presumably for each motor
set up for series parallel switching. If I mechanically have the motors
in-line and nowhere to mount the 2nd RPM sensor, will the Zilla act the same on
the single sensor mounted to the front motor only? Is there somewhere to tell
it to ignore input from the 2nd sensor port?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rodney,
This has been discussed quite a few times on the EVDL, so you'll
probably find a lot of info in searching the archives. Here's a quote
from one post from 2005 by the venerable Lee Hart:
Motors in series act exactly like a normal car differential. Same torque
at both wheels (because both motors have exactly the same current). But
the wheels can turn at different speeds -- good for going around
corners, but bad if one wheel is on ice or up in the air.
Motors in parallel work independently, and act like a limited slip
differential. They both try to run at the same speed (because each has
the same voltage). When you go around a corner, the inside wheel slows
down a bit, and so draws more current and makes more torque. The outside
wheel speeds up a bit, so draws less current and makes less torque.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rodney A wrote:
> Has anyone useddual controllers/motors in a vehicle?
> If so, how do you
> manage it? If you usedual motors with one for each
> powered wheel, how do you
> manage things likedifferential control?
The first example to spring to mind is the Tropica
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/TRPC>
These cars used a pair of motors, one per rear wheel, each with its own
Curtis controller. You don't have to do anything special for
differential control. You don't even have to run one motor per wheel;
you could connect the motors mechanically together and then connect them
to the vehicle drivetrain (tranny/diff) as normal.
If you want to use multiple controllers, it is pretty much essential
that you use one motor for each controller; as sonn as you try to
connect multiple controllers to the same motor you run into issues like
synchronising their PWM clocks.
If you weren't planning to run multiple motors already, factor this into
the cost comparison.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tony,
I thought you were going with MES DEA, or are you switching to AC55?
JJ
> Thanks Roland! So, I calculated, assuming 7000RPM max, the following for
> my Scion xA, with AC55 delta motor:
>
> TIRE/WHEEL:
> 75 inches circumfrence
> 23.74 inches diameter
>
> STATS:
> max motor rpm, 7000
> 15.2574 ratio in 1st
> 8.189 ratio in 2nd
> 5.6461 in 3rd
>
> TOP SPEEDS:
> mph 1st=33mph
> mph 2nd=60mph
> mph 3rd=87mph
>
> The actual max motor rpm is 8000, so I'm being a little conservative
> here. The stock Scion xA's 5MT power/torque curve is here:
>
> http://www.remus.dti.ne.jp/~pochiinu/001Vitz-TechInfo/Taco/0411NZ-EGSC.jpg
>
> Left is power, right is torque, bottom is rpm.
>
> The power/torque curve for the AC55 is (blue and pink lines):
>
> http://thsoftware.com/linked/ac55-motor-stats.jpg
>
> So, a 60mph top speed is too slow, so I'm thinking of locking the
> gearbox in 3rd gear. Since the electric motor has twice the torque early
> on versus the ICE engine, would 3rd be ok? Or would the acceleration be
> too slow? I'm hoping for comparable, or slightly faster acceleration
> versus the ICE engine (0 to 60 in 10 seconds or so for the ICE engine).
>
> - Tony
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:45:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get
> gearboxes
>
> Hello Tony,
>
> I first start out with this formula when designing any prime mover
> system:
>
> RPM x Tire Circumference
> RPM = --------------------------
> Overall Gear Ratio x 1056
>
> To find the tire circumference, mark a reference point on the floor and
> tire and rotate the tire until the tire mark is touching the floor and
> measure between the marks.
>
> The overall gear ratio is the transmission gear in the selected gear you
> are in times the differential gear ratio.
>
> For example, my 1st gear ratio is 3.5:1 and the differential ratio is
> 5.57:1, so the overall ratio in 1st gear is 3.5 x 5.57 = 19.495:1
>
> My wheel circumference is 90 inches and maximum motor rpm is 6000 rpm,
> so:
>
>
> 6000 x 90
> mph = ------------ = 26.23 mph in 1st gear
> 19.495 x 1056
>
> I can accelerated to 25 mph moving 7000 lbs of weight at a normal
> acceleration of any of vehicle in traffic and the maximum ampere will
> peak to about 300 amps, then at cruse at 25 mph, the motor amperes
> comes back to 125 amps.
>
> In second gear which is a 13.5:1 overall ratio, the motor amps goes to
> about 500 amps if I start out in this gear.
>
> TCI Automotive makes up transmissions with any gear ratio you want,
> which I am going to test out this year.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:27 AM
> Subject: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
>
>
>> I hear the number 10:1 thrown around, and it's also used in custom
>> gearboxes for the AC24, and MES DEA motors.
>>
>> I'm wondering, given a motor torque/rpm curve, how would one calculate
>> the optimal gear ratio? Efficiency, acceleration, top speed, etc,
>> would all have to be balanced. I'm not sure where to begin. Also,
>> where does one get a custom gearbox/diff made? I did some googling
>> and couldn't find anything except custom racing transmissions which I
>> don't need. I need just a one ratio gearbox. Would a torque limiter,
>> or something that allows slip, be needed to protect the motor?
>>
>> - Tony
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I presented this question to the EVTech list, and I got a few
responses. I thought I'd throw it at a wider audience and see what
others might think.
I'm presently toying around with building a motor controller. I have
the physical layout of the power stage pretty much done. I need a good
way of clamping TO220 and TO247 devices to the heat sink. The sink
itself is 1" wide by 1.25" high by 12" long. The components will be
located 1/8" from the bottom edge. Because of the tight nature of the
design, and the need to place the gate drivers close to the MOSFETs, I
need a thin springy clamp. A binder clip seems ideal, except that
they're not big enough to span the 1.5" comprised of the sink and the
thickness of the components. Lee Hart mentioned that their clamping is
uneven.
I'm going to try cutting, annealing, drilling/bending, hardening and
(finally) tempering some pieces of spring steel cut from large binder
clips, with the aim of making separate one-sided (L-shaped rather than U
shaped) clamps for each device.
Alternatively, I was considering using the steel from putty knives in
it's flat form, and deforming it with a screw to apply pressure.
I'd rather there was a simple approach to this.
Oh, and drilling holes in the heat sink itself is not an option, as it's
watertight.
Anyone?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoo-hoo, I knew this would be fun! :)
Major disconnect! When I think 0-60 mph, I think of what you can read in Motor
Trend and Road and Track. When I hear "60 foot time" or "1/4 mile time" or
"trap speed" I think drag racing. 0 to 60 mph is not officially measured at the
track. So true you didn't limit yourself to production cars, but you have to
admit 0-60 is the vernacular of the car magazines more than the drag strip.
Given that mind set, you are going to have alot of trouble finding a Motor
Trend 0-60 time of 2.X seconds (Bugatti Veyron being a notable exception).
These are cars as you can buy them, that can be driven 100,000+ miles with no
problems, on tires that last 30k+ miles.
To get 2.x seconds takes things like drag tires, 90/10 shocks, a well prepped
sticky track surface, a stout differential, traction bars... (hmmm, starting to
sound like White Zombie!). Just throwing horsepower at the problem won't do it,
at a minimum good tires are needed, even on an AWD.
So I still stand by my statement that it is unreasonable to expect the Mini as
pictured, even if it had 640 hp of lithium batteries on board, to do 0-60 mph
in 2.X seconds. They would be smart to slap on some drag slicks, go to a really
sticky track, and do a big warmup burnout first -- but this too would be a
marketing number, not achievable in street driving.
Which leads to an interesting question: The Tzero and Tesla do 0-60 in around
3.6 seconds and 4 seconds. How much better would they be if they had all the
drag race mods, and ran on a sticky track?
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:31:51 AM
Subject: Re: 640hp Mini
...
>0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that?
Any car the approximate size and weight of that Mini and packing a
'real' 640 hp!
Vehicles at the track I witness first hand that can run low 10 second -
high 9 second 1/4 mile ETs, run 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Those that run
in the low nines - high 8s are doing it in the 2-2.5 second range.
...
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
how about GE drives you can disable their alarms easily bur I don't remember
about the alarm for v in I know you can disable the current alarm but you
will have to hack the dc to the dc bus .
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Karl Nichols<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ;
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: AC Drives on Ebay
A lot of the newer generation drives up to 3-5 hp are able to work off
single phase input. I have even seen a couple that claimed to work off 120
volt single phase input for under 1 hp. I have a couple on my lathe and
drill press running off of 230 volt 1 phase and I like them for that.
typically they are de-rated with the single phase input since only a portion
of the input rectifier is being used.
The problem is still the size is not large enough and we don't have any AC
to show to the drive input. Actually it would be best if we could remove
the input bridge rectifier and filter since we are talking about just
feeding the DC buss directly.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
"The Skunk"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Nichols" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>;
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:49 AM
Subject: RE: AC Drives on Ebay
I have worked with these drives and some years back I had wired a next
generation unit to a Bridgeport Mill and ran it off 240V single phase. I
simply added a second phase wire to the 3rd leg and this effectively worked
to give a voltage input for all 3 phases. The motor was rated at 208V 3
phase at 2hp it worked great and gave me a simple speed control.
Karl Nichols
Phoenix, AZ
05 Prius
Looking for first full EV
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 11:14 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: AC Drives on Ebay
>From the nameplate of the drive shown and the size of the cabinet those
appear to be about 1 HP drives. The 1333 AB drive is about 5 or 6 series
old and are probably early 1990s vintage.
As James mentioned the AB drives have firmware that checks for incoming
phase loss and I haven't found a simple way to fool it into thinking the
incoming lines are there.
I have been asking every industrial drives distributer I deal with about
using their drives with a DC input and have not had much positive feedback.
I was able to talk to another one today at a seminar and he actually was
encouraging so I will see what he is able to come up with. He actually
admitted to doing a conversion in college back in the early 90s so he may be
more sympathetic to the problem.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
"The Skunk"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=751<http://www.austinevorg/evalbum/preview.php?vid=751>
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: AC Drives on Ebay
>I was searching around on Ebay, and found these:
>
> ALLEN BRABLEY ADJUSTABLE FREQUENCY AC MOTOR DRIVES
>
> Item number: 260094665248
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to adapt these to an EV usage....
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen (and worked on a car with) a pair of BLDC motors. We
used two potboxes, and staggered the linkages. Both motors were
connected together (and to the clutch assembly) with a Gates
timing belt. The stagger was arranged so that the motors would
tend to operate in their most efficient area: mid torque.
One such arrangement had a small (around 15kW/30kW) and a
large (30kW/60kW) motor, staged. The other (and earlier)
arrangement was a pair of identical motors (12/24kW). Power
ratings are continuous/peak by the way. I think the regen
pots were similarly staged but interlocked so accelerator
and brake wouldn't give one motor a regen signal and the
other a motor signal. Direction was hard-wired because
this was an HEV and a reverse running electric motor means
ICE destruction the way the clutches were arranged.
Keep the pots and all other signals totally separate from
each other (electrically - you can run them side by side
though) because any ground currents will hurt or blow up
something.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive wrote:
Having spent a lot of years in a gas car repair shop, I have a pretty
good idea what annual maintenance costs are (or were ten years ago
when we quit) for a typical gas car. A 6,000 mile major service and
tune USED to be $150.
The maintenance advantages are becoming less and less. Most people able
to afford an EV conversion are buying fairly new cars that are covered
by warranties. A lot of cars today can go 100,000 miles with nothing
but oil and air filters. Manufacturers recommend oil changes at 7500
mile intervals, and most other maintenance at 30k to 50k mile intervals.
OTOH, if you are someone who tends to own cars past their warranty the
difference can be significant on non-routine care. 10 year old cars
don't generally need $160 tune ups, but even minor engine issue requires
extensive troubleshooting by a mechanic skilled on computerized
diagnostics. (At average costs of $75/hr, minimum)
The Dodge dealership recommended junking my 1997 Neon because the ECU
fuse would blow whenever the engine got hot. They diagnosed the problem
as a short in the engine harness. A replacement harness was $1000, and
they wouldn't waste technician hours diagnosing and repairing the
harness. (I eventually tracked the problem to a bad heater element in
a $30 oxygen sensor)
I've heard GM uses a standard fuel sender part on many vehicles now, but
the sender must have vehicle specific firmware written to it to
calibrate it to the tank size. The sender costs about $17 to the
dealer, who then charges $200 to download the firmware to it. Senders
wear out, a lot.
How many people here have had a technician "solve" a Check Engine light
problem by replacing a $400 computer?
Most of the people I talk to do not worry about the cost of auto
maintenance, they just hate the hassle. The EV, I tell them, requires
almost no routine maintenance, and almost all of it can be done in a few
minutes by the owner in their own garage, and without getting their
hands dirty.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A great big hose clamp? Run it across all of the devices and around
behind the heat sink and back to the front again. Put pieces of rubber
or springs between the hose clamp and the devices near the middle,
because the devices on the ends will get extra pressure. Don't
overtighten!
To avoid the weak middle effect, you might use the hose clamp to
squeeze a piece of C-channel against the devices. Or just use two
pieces of C-channel, one on either side of the heatsink, held together
at the ends with long bolts.
I know the heatsink is supposed to be watertight, but can you put a
stud through it and weld it closed again? Then you could hold the
devices down with nuts like God intended.
There exist watertight fasteners, like bolts with O-rings integrated
into the head. Sorry, can't find the reference again.
Is there some sort of enclosure going over this assembly? Can you put
a bunch of springs on the inside of the cover that press the devices
down to the heatsink when the cover is installed? Or, drill and tap
holes in the cover and put knurled screws through them. Tighten them
by hand to press the devices against the heatsink.
On Mar 15, 2007, at 5:00 PM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
I presented this question to the EVTech list, and I got a few
responses. I thought I'd throw it at a wider audience and see what
others might think.
I'm presently toying around with building a motor controller. I have
the physical layout of the power stage pretty much done. I need a
good way of clamping TO220 and TO247 devices to the heat sink. The
sink itself is 1" wide by 1.25" high by 12" long. The components will
be located 1/8" from the bottom edge. Because of the tight nature of
the design, and the need to place the gate drivers close to the
MOSFETs, I need a thin springy clamp. A binder clip seems ideal,
except that they're not big enough to span the 1.5" comprised of the
sink and the thickness of the components. Lee Hart mentioned that
their clamping is uneven.
I'm going to try cutting, annealing, drilling/bending, hardening and
(finally) tempering some pieces of spring steel cut from large binder
clips, with the aim of making separate one-sided (L-shaped rather than
U shaped) clamps for each device.
Alternatively, I was considering using the steel from putty knives in
it's flat form, and deforming it with a screw to apply pressure.
I'd rather there was a simple approach to this.
Oh, and drilling holes in the heat sink itself is not an option, as
it's watertight.
Anyone?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was following your argument until your last line, sticky track and
drag mods ?
The 0-60 time is good for measuring accelration, and acceleration is
all about torque delivery versus inertia forces.
It is quoted for cars not on the track, not with sticky tyres, but
under normal circumstances to enable the average driver to be able to
connect with the information.
Someone could tell me that their car ran an impressive x.x 1/4 mile
but can you then actually take that and apply it on the road ?
I don't think the Veyron is as extreme as you need to go in order to
draw comparisons either, the Radical S3 and the Areil Atom are
production cars with small engines and very fast 0-60 times and high
final speeds.
I think there's some merit in the 1/4 mile statistic, it takes the
car out if it's normal acceleration versus top speed gearing scenario
by demanding that it accelrates fast and reaches a high top speed.
That makes the quarter mile a race about torque.
The Veyron is big and heavy with a brute motor in order to move it,
the two cars I mentioned are small and light athletic motors and they
achieve similar results, but for me , what it all comes down to is
how well the car deals with the corners.
Fast in a straight line is easy, because it's all torque, but speed
with agility means I don't need to slow too much for the bends, I can
achieve a high exit speed to get a maintain a high average speed, and
still only have 4 piston ring sets to replace at the weekends ;-o)
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Whoo-hoo, I knew this would be fun! :)
>
> Major disconnect! When I think 0-60 mph, I think of what you can
read in Motor Trend and Road and Track. When I hear "60 foot time"
or "1/4 mile time" or "trap speed" I think drag racing. 0 to 60 mph
is not officially measured at the track. So true you didn't limit
yourself to production cars, but you have to admit 0-60 is the
vernacular of the car magazines more than the drag strip.
>
> Given that mind set, you are going to have alot of trouble finding
a Motor Trend 0-60 time of 2.X seconds (Bugatti Veyron being a
notable exception). These are cars as you can buy them, that can be
driven 100,000+ miles with no problems, on tires that last 30k+ miles.
>
> To get 2.x seconds takes things like drag tires, 90/10 shocks, a
well prepped sticky track surface, a stout differential, traction
bars... (hmmm, starting to sound like White Zombie!). Just throwing
horsepower at the problem won't do it, at a minimum good tires are
needed, even on an AWD.
>
> So I still stand by my statement that it is unreasonable to expect
the Mini as pictured, even if it had 640 hp of lithium batteries on
board, to do 0-60 mph in 2.X seconds. They would be smart to slap on
some drag slicks, go to a really sticky track, and do a big warmup
burnout first -- but this too would be a marketing number, not
achievable in street driving.
>
> Which leads to an interesting question: The Tzero and Tesla do 0-60
in around 3.6 seconds and 4 seconds. How much better would they be if
they had all the drag race mods, and ran on a sticky track?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:31:51 AM
> Subject: Re: 640hp Mini
>
> ...
> >0 to 60 mph (~100 km/hr) in 2 seconds? What can do that?
>
> Any car the approximate size and weight of that Mini and packing a
> 'real' 640 hp!
>
> Vehicles at the track I witness first hand that can run low 10
second -
> high 9 second 1/4 mile ETs, run 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Those that
run
> in the low nines - high 8s are doing it in the 2-2.5 second range.
> ...
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How hard would it be to retro fit a small motor to replace the axles of a
front wheel drive car? Would it even be possible to machine something to
fit the drive shaft of the motor to mimic the cogged end of the axles where
it fits into the wheel hub? How critical are the axles to the stability of
the front wheel/strut assembly?
Also, how much harder/easier/safer would this be to attempt on a rear wheel
drive vehicle?
Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Scott Stadler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
Are those large BLDC Motors (30kW/60kW) available for individuals to purchase?
And if so how much are they? I have been searching for a source for that power
range of BLDC motor.
Regards,
Chet
--- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've seen (and worked on a car with) a pair of BLDC motors. We
> used two potboxes, and staggered the linkages. Both motors were
> connected together (and to the clutch assembly) with a Gates
> timing belt. The stagger was arranged so that the motors would
> tend to operate in their most efficient area: mid torque.
>
> One such arrangement had a small (around 15kW/30kW) and a
> large (30kW/60kW) motor, staged. The other (and earlier)
> arrangement was a pair of identical motors (12/24kW). Power
> ratings are continuous/peak by the way. I think the regen
> pots were similarly staged but interlocked so accelerator
> and brake wouldn't give one motor a regen signal and the
> other a motor signal. Direction was hard-wired because
> this was an HEV and a reverse running electric motor means
> ICE destruction the way the clutches were arranged.
>
> Keep the pots and all other signals totally separate from
> each other (electrically - you can run them side by side
> though) because any ground currents will hurt or blow up
> something.
>
> -Dale
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
