EV Digest 6564
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(hybrid-tax-credit AMT jip)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Thicker rotors for the front disc brakes on the Rabbit
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EVLN($9k 208VAC 3phase 50amp 10Kw Fast Xebra charger)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Free LEDs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions (long, sorry)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Xenon Headlamp and LED Tail Lamp Conversions (long, sorry)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fictitional 640hp Mini
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Motor choice for a Fiat 500 project
by Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: appropriate controller match
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: shunt motor controller?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor choice for a Fiat 500 project
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Plated Battery Cable Lugs
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Altairnano Ultimatum
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Imho, you don't exactly give the impression of an established and
respectable corporate entity, especially when you start resorting to
threats.
By your own admission your emails looks like spam and your website is
parked by godaddy. I'm surprised they didn't sort you into the
circular file right away.
I'm sorry you didn't manage to get a test pack, but, I wouldn't draw
any conclusions from your experience.
No disrespect intended
On 3/16/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What would be taking it the "wrong way"? I shared your exact perspective
about a month ago, giving the situation the benefit of the doubt, but
instead of testing batteries, I ended up testing their integrity, giving
them every opportunity to, and they failed to even give me a link to
independently sourced data they said they had.
None of this episode was ever about helping out an EV hobbyist. It was
about providing a developmental company with an opportunity to prove their
wares. I offered them the credentials of my Test Engineering background
with NASA and Boeing, but they didn't care. A freak with a scooter was good
enough!
As far as what batteries are in the Pheonix? Well, I saw with my own eyes
at the Solar conference something that looked like about a group 27 or 29
battery and it had an Altairnano logo on it. It appeared to even have an
anode and cathode, but that's all I really know.
-Sam
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 3:17 pm
To: [email protected]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but they're probably busy trying to
build a new business with developing technology while coordinating
everything that needs to be done in order to fulfill existing contracts
while trying to provide a return for their shareholders. I would guess that
helping out EV hobbyists isn't their first priority, regardless of any
agreements or understandings that may have been made.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jessie Lubke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 5:35:57 PM
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
Wow, Sam, this is a big bummer. I was really trying to keep the faith in
Altair despite their suspicious behavior. Thanks for the footwork you've
done - I'd certainly rather know the truth than sustain false hope.
What do you think they've been using in those Phoenix cars? Phoenix
representatives claim that their vehicles run on Altairnano's fancy
batteries.
jessielectric
On 3/16/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Below is pasted plain text of my last communication to Altairnano, which
> was in response to a phone call from their last rep that I was "hot
> potatoed" to. In that conversation Bob Goebel stated he was assigned
> to defend my "attack" on his boss, Al Gotcher, and used the excuse that
> their was no paperwork, for which I had vouched. He also said they had
> independent test results, but has failed to date to send me those
> sources or results.
>
> So, the facts are:
>
> 1. Roy Graham and Veselin Manev of Altairnano made a verbal agreement to
> send me a test pack at the October 2006 Solar conference in San Jose,
> CA. Roy stated that they could make a pack available for a road test
> in January of 2007. They requested I send test pack requirements.
> Altairnano investor/Physicist Richard Morse was present as witness.
>
> 2. I forwarded the requested technical requirements, and sample test
> data using an old set of hawkers as "placeholders" (for emulating the
> conditions the batteries would be subjected to), to Veselin Manev, and
> didn't hear back.
>
> 3. Roy Graham left the company to become an "Alternative Energy
> Consultant".
>
> 4. I followed through, and Al Gotcher, the new CEO, called me in late
> January 2007. He offered that they might be able to provide a 90
> Amp-hr 12V cell to test, and I replied that that was inadequate for the
> proposed road test per the requirements I had sent them (absolute
> minimum 24V, but if they wanted valuable results, 48V). He said he
> would talk to his "guys" and see what he could do.
>
> 5. I sent the ultimatum (which Bob Goebel called an "attack directed at
> my boss"), posted earlier on this list, and enter Bob Goebel to bring
> you up to date.
>
> So, while this may not be legal proof that they are a fraud, feel free
> to spread the facts.
>
> The purpose of this test was to provide positive press for a legitimate
> energy storage developer. Using my 20 mi/Kw-hr scoot, a GPS, and
> battery/controller data acquisition, I can prove a given set of
> batteries endured certain real road conditions (Pack Amps, Pack Volts,
> Motor Amps, Diode Temperature, etc,) while I travelled a given distance
> at a given speed and acceleration profile. Unlike racing, this is a
> real world, practical application test. I would expect a company with
> real technology would invite such a test, and follow through on it,
> especially if I am willing to maintain confidentiality of results until
> their approval and release of it, thereby eliminating any question of
> the credibility of the results.
>
> -Sam
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Agreements and Data
> From: Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 09, 2007 4:28 pm
> To: Bob Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Dear Bob: Thanks for your follow-through regarding independent
> testing of the Altairnano batteries. If you have links to true,
> independent, objective test results of your Nano-Titanate cells, please
> reply with links to that data and I will forward that information to
> concerned entities (to remain confidential) that have been anticipating
> test results from myself. As it is apparent that you have only
> partial information regarding the history of the testing agreement
> conversation between Altairnano and myself, I will briefly recap for
> you. First, I have represented myself to Altairnano as an individual
> with a background in R&D and test Engineering. "Electrikeel" is a
> domain name I have reserved for the work I perform in the Marine
> Electrical and Navigation Electronics industry, and currently use for
> email communication. At the Solar 2006 conference in San Jose (October
> 2006), Roy Graham, Veselin Manev, and Altairnano Investor/Physicist
> Richard Morse were present when I presented a Newspaper article to them
> publicizing a round-trip Port Townsend to Seattle, WA trip on a custom
> electric vehicle I had designed and built. That is when a verbal
> agreement was made to perform road testing on a prototype Altairnano
> pack to be conducted in January of 2007. The test purpose was to
> subject the batteries to real road travel operating conditions and
> measure their performance, while using GPS data to prove the vehicle
> travelled from point "A" to Point "B". Since that conference I have
> vouched for the opportunity to sign necessary paperwork and perform the
> testing. I have also provided battery pack test parameters and sample
> test data, but Altairnano's response has been at best fragmented to
> date, which is why we have no paperwork. Although I will continue to
> avail myself if Altairnano is serious about a publicized "road test", I
> am not going to continue to push for it, as there is nothing in it for
> me other than a first-hand account of the performance of your
> batteries. From what I can gather, the Li-Phosphate technology has
> superior energy density performance and competitve performance
> characteristics in all other important areas pertinent to Electric
> Vehicle applications, and I can get my hands on those cells in 2
> business days. I remain in the support of the development of legitimate
> technologies that make a contribution to environmentally responsible
> energy use, and wish Altairnano the best of luck in making that
> contribution.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
> From: "Jessie Lubke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 12:05 pm
> To: [email protected]
>
> I assume you haven't received the test pack?
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
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--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I got really fed up with my power supply going out now that my
server grade PS supplier has bankers hours that the last time I took a
risk at compUSA and payed a lot extra for one made by antec. It has a
european approval which means that it has PFC. It also came with a chart
showing the effeincy vs load which I found really interesting. Most of
the normal computer power supplies are rated at 1 point and the effiency
if not at that peak load is horrific.
I have really loved this unit the single 7" fan keeps it quiet and I can
tell it doesn't heat the room up like other power supplies (even when
they had less "wattage")
If these could be purchased at a discount they might be good enough.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(hybrid-tax-credit AMT jip)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.mercurynews.com/columns/ci_5440849
Roadshow: Tax credit switch for hybrid car disappoints new Prius
owner By Gary Richards Mercury News Staff Columnist
San Jose Mercury News Article Launched:03/15/2007 01:43:31 AM PDT
Q I was excited to learn last year that if I bought a 2006 Toyota
Prius, I could receive a $3,150 tax credit. I bought a Prius in
February '06 and, after my wife and I completed our tax
documents through our accountant recently, I learned that
because we were required to use the Alternative Minimum Tax, we
would not be eligible for this credit. I still love my Prius,
but it is disheartening to find that the information I read was
not completely accurate. Can someone shed light on this?
David Hendrickson San Jose
A Oh, bad news, and we can blame Congress and the White House for
failing to deal with this issue, says Mark-The-Mercury News'
-Tax-Whiz:
"You found out the hard way that tax cuts aren't always created
equal. While President Bush has succeeded in pushing through
some huge tax cuts, they have the counterintuitive effect of
pushing regular taxpayers into the AMT system instead.
Taxpayers are supposed to calculate their taxes under the
regular rules and the AMT rules and pay whichever is higher.
... I'm afraid your plight is for real, and you are far from
alone in Silicon Valley, where the AMT hits with far more
frequency than the rest of the nation."
[See http://hybridcars.com/federal-incentives.html ] for more
on this dreaded tax.
[...]
Contact Gary Richards at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
(408)920-5335. Copyright 2007 San Jose Mercury News
===
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258767,00.html
Help Out Others And Help Your Bottom Line By Tracy Byrnes
[...]
If you bought a hybrid car in 2006, you can get a credit of up to
$3,400 for it. The credit varies among the different hybrids,
though. For example, the credit on the Toyota Prius is $3,150,
but the Ford Escape hybrid 4WD will only get you a $1,950 credit.
Again, it's better than nothing. Just keep in mind these credits
are limited to the first 60,000 hybrids that the manufacturer
sells. So if you buy the 60,001st car, your credit will decrease
and eventually the available credits will be phased out
completely.
[...]
© Associated Press. All rights reserved.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon sent Thursday, January 11, 2007 5:39 PM:
> On Jan 11, 2007, at 2:27 PM, Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> > My #1 ? has to do with how the thicker rotor (off the top of
my
> > head I believe it is 20mm as opposed to a stock rotor's ~5mm
(?))
> > is accomodated by what I believe is still a stock set of
calipers
> > (I think they are Kelsey-Hayes (sic?)). Something has to
give.
> > I haven't seen any sign on the internet that brake pads vary
that
> > much in thickness to accomodate varying rotor thicknesses.
So
> > the only thing I can think of is that the pads will push the
> > pistons further back in their bores or that a shim or spacer
of
> > some sort was added to the caliper housing by the shop
previously
> > mentioned. How is it normally done?
>
> I think you are looking for Rabbit GTI brake pads. The Rabbit
and GTI
> used the same caliper but the GTI got the vented rotor and
thinner
> pads.
>
> The 1980 thing kinda throws me off a little because that was a
change
> year. It seems you have the newer style brakes. I don't
understand all
> the interchange rules between '70's Rabbit front end parts and
'81 up
> late type Rabbit parts. Perhaps others here will have more
detailed
> info specific to 1980, or whatever year parts you actually have
up
> front.
I just wanted to report back on what happened with this whole
scene...
I tracked down the guy, Matt, who was involved with setting up
the disks and semi-metallic pads some years ago. I don't think
he could quite believe his eyes when he looked through the window
of his current workplace and saw the Yellow Banana rolling up the
ramp - this thing is still going! A hearty welcome it was. He
informed me that I should get a set of pads for an '83 GTI, which
is what I did. I had in mind a set of Porterfield carbon-kevlar
R4-S pads (these are street pads that are "rotor friendly"),
since this material has held up very well for ten years on the
shoes back in the rear drums. I looked up the pads in the
Porterfield catalog, and after some phone discussion with Linda
at their front desk, I ordered a set of AP 158 pads for an '83
GTI. (Note that there is a slightly thicker variant - AP 158t -
that quite possibly would've fit, given the amount of piston
travel I was able to take up.) Sure enough, the new pads were a
drop-in replacement.
So after taking the old pads out, checking things out (like
looking for hardened or cracked piston seals; the rotors (ATEs, I
believe) were fine, with very little overhang at the edge, which
to me means they are not wearing down much) and cleaning things
up with brake cleaner fluid (like removing the scale from the
guide pins, I used the special tool from Napa Auto Parts to push
the pistons back up into the bores. After that I applied
Sil-Glide (a blu-ish hi-temp lubricant) to the guide pins, the
flat bevels that the ends of the pads ride on, and the back sides
of the new pads (it may have just been the inner ones that the
pistons push against, but I could've also done the backs of the
outside pads - I forget at the moment). Dropped the new pads in,
put the caliper assembly over the whole affair, and torqued down
the guide pins (30 ft-lb).
The old semi-metallics, which were PBR-MetalMasters, were always
a rather gravelly affair, especially if I put my foot into them
to haul down quickly. They got more so towards the end of their
life. Matt at one point called them "rotor eaters", which they
sure felt like, although it doesn't look like upon inspection
that they ate up the rotors too much.
But, WOW!, the new R4-Ss seem like smooth-as-glass after the old
pads. Pedal effort seems significantly less. And they haul down
about the same as the old pads. I was somewhat disappointed that
I couldn't lock up the fronts with them when I tried the first
few hundred feet they were in there, but maybe by now they
could - I just don't drive that way, and I haven't had a hard
stop in the month-or-so they've been in there. It may just take
larger rotors (implying larger wheels), meatier calipers, and/or
a different master cylinder to do that.
It felt as if the car was rolling easier, with less brake drag,
after this job, it really did. Unfortunately, I was unable to
perform my parking lot rolling resistance test beforehand,
because of rain. I did get an after test, though, and the
rolling scene was almost precisely the same as some months
beforehand. Oh well...
Another thing I found is that the anti-rattle springs are a PITA.
I had one that was trying to fall off before this brake job, and
I removed it. I reinstalled none of them with these new pads.
No rattle problems.
So I recommend these pads if they will fit your conversion.
While pricey (they are twice the cost of the Metal-Masters: $79
as opposed to $38), they sure drive nice and look meaty and
long-lasting. I've heard of at least one occurrence where a
conversion did not have the brakes to stop fast enough, and hit
the car in front of them. There's just no excuse for that! Get
some decent brakes in there!
On top of that, I now have a new skill in the skill-box, part of
which is the point behind doing the EV conversion in the first
place. Heck, I might even do the pads on my gas vehicle someday!
Easy, just as long as it's only the pads that need replacing and
everything else checks out.
Here are some pics (path
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/brakes/)...
070203-drivers_side_front_brake_assembly-front_view.jpg: View of
driver's side front brake assembly, vented grooved rotor, caliper
on, old pads still in.
070211-drivers_side_front_brake_assembly-caliper_off_old_pads_sti
ll_in.jpg: Pic title says it all. Not much pad material left.
The worse case was about 1mm left - I had maybe a couple of
months left. Over on the left the caliper is hanging from a
bungee cord to avoid straining the brake line. The circular
orange thing is the piston, which as you can see from the shadow
along its edge is stuck quite a ways out from pushing on those
old pads. When I pushed my finger in on the base of that "cup",
it seemed somewhat soft, which rather surprised me. The piston
compression tool's threaded plunger went down against that base,
which given the softness, concerned me a bit, but it apparently
worked ok. That piston can be pushed in quite a long ways, more
than enough to handle the new pads, and the fluid level in the
master cylinder reservoir did not rise that far (did not have to
remove any).
070211-drivers_side_front_brake_assembly-caliper_off_new_pads.jpg
: Nice meaty new c-k pads, with 10mm of material each.
070211-drivers_side_front_brake_assembly_new_pads-front_upper_vie
w.jpg: This shows the new pads with the caliper assembly in
place. The shiny appearance at the ends of the pads is the
Sil-Glide. One can see the shiny upper and lower guide pins to
the left.
070211-drivers_side_front_brake_assembly_new_pads-side_view.jpg
Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote Friday, January 12, 2007 12:49
AM:
>> My master cylinder
>> reservoir is not full of fluid (it's at the level of the
>> horizontal seam somewhat down from the top), so hopefully I
don't
>> have to remove any fluid (yuck!) to avoid overflow when I push
>> those pistons back (will have to get a syringe if I do).
>
> I wouldn't do this. The fluid in the calipers is usually the
nastiest
> fluid in the system, if you push it back into the master
cyclinder, then
> you are just asking for problems with the masty cyclinder
seals. Wedge
> the brake pedal part down, attach a hose to and open the bleed
nipple.
> This way fluid cannot travel back to the master and exits via
the bleed
> nipple.
Yes, I agree with this. However, at least this iteration, to get
the job done, I elected to not worry about it. The Bentley
factory manual doesn't seem to have any issue with pushing the
fluid back up the brake line to the master cylinder. Maybe next
time, if I have fresh brake fluid on hand, I will push the brake
fluid out through the bleed nipple and pour in new stuff at the
top. I'm also due for brake fluid replacement in the next year
or so, a job I don't really care for, bleeding and all, yucko.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
EVCN Larkspur 94939_1 Adopt-a-Charger sponsor (evchargernews.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN($9k 208VAC 3phase 50amp 10Kw Fast Xebra charger)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070315005590&newsLang=en
March 15, 2007 11:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Fast Electric Car Charger from ZAP Cuts Recharge Time from Hours
to Minutes
SANTA ROSA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Imagine charging your
electric car in the time it takes you to have lunch. That's what
electric car pioneer ZAP is saying about a new charging
technology for their XEBRA electric car or truck.
ZAP says the charger on the XEBRA can be configured for charging
with either a 110 or 220-volt outlet like the ones used with a
household washer and dryer. The new charger is able to provide up
to 100 amps or 10,000 watts of electricity into the vehicle and
ZAP Chairman Gary Starr says it will significantly extend daily
driving range.
"This new charger can reduce your charge time from hours to
minutes," said Starr. "Now you can drive your electric car all
day with just a few short stops. In the time it takes to eat
lunch you can hook your XEBRA up to the charger and have a full
charge in less than an hour. Think of it as putting your XEBRA
out to graze."
Normally the XEBRA recharges in under six hours, but Starr says
the new charger would be ideal for fleets, government agencies,
corporations, universities and multi-car families looking to
incorporate all-electric vehicles. It connects to a 240-volt, 60
amp circuit or 208-volt, 3-phase, 50 amp circuit. The fast
charger is similar to ones used at Southwest Airlines, America
West Airlines, the Toronto Pearson International Airport, and
Arizona Public Service for recharging their fleets.
The new charger can be ordered through ZAP for about $9,000 and
can even qualify for a Federal 30 percent tax credit. See IRS Tax
Form 8911 for the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Property Credit. Starr
added that people needing an even faster recharge could order a
charger capable of putting out 15 kW or 50 percent more power.
ZAP calls the XEBRA design a 'city-car,' available as a 4-door
sedan or 2-passenger truck, good for city-speed driving up to 40
MPH and priced about $10,000. ZAP recently introduced another way
of improving range and battery life with an optional rooftop
solar panel. For purchasing information, contact your local ZAP
dealer. For a list of dealers, visit http://www.zapworld.com.
About ZAP [...] Forward-looking statements in this release [...]
Contacts ZAP Eveline Souza, +1 707-525-8658 ext. 216 (Media)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Sherri Haskell, +1 707-525-8658 ext. 232
(Investors) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
© Business Wire 2007
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/16/2007 4:40:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The source: Traffic light signals and Walk/Dont Walk signs bummed from
the trash of the local city
traffic light maintenance dept where my son works.
Any chance you will find you have "enough" of these and can start selling
them to your fellow Listers?
Sounds like VERY nice light sources!
Thanks
Matt Parkhouse
(who is using LEDS for head, tail and brake lights on my EV three-wheeler)
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In a message dated 3/16/2007 2:45:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm working on making my own replacements and this is one issue I haven't
solved. If anyone knows
of a low load relay for signal lights, could you post the info?
Way Tech Wire has one..... About $14.
_http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0C1D14095
8680800DEBE052+M37+ENG_
(http://order.waytekwire.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+L0C1D140958680800DEBE052+M37+ENG)
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/16/2007 2:45:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I've been buying my LEDs off of eBay. Commonly you'll find auctions for 20
to 50 for about $15 to
$20, including shipping. They all seem to come out of Hong Kong, and they do
come by slow boat.
There are a lot of colors and brightnesses available. I've stayed away from
the Luxeon for now,
too expensive. I'm waiting for some 10mm 60k mcd LEDs that I'm going to use
for amber running
lights. I also have some 135k mcd white LEDs on order. I need to experiment
with how many I need
to use to equal the original bulb.
I buy this way also.... I have NOT found anything that would safely and
adequately replace a good H-4 headlamp for a vehicle that can go 50 mph or
more....
I AM running "halogen lamp replacement" LED bulbs (31 LEDs in each lamp X2
lamps) on my three wheeler but that essentially a NEV, rarely getting up over
30 MPH.
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
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--- Begin Message ---
At 09:01 PM 15/03/07 -0800, John Neiswanger wrote:
Most of the drives I have worked on have the DC buss on the terminal strip
between the Line in and the Motor out and labeled B+ and B-. Usually
listed in the documentation as the terminals for the dynamic braking module.
G'day John, All
The terminals we are interested in on a typical AC drive are as follows:
AC input: on all but the smallest drives there is some kind of inrush
limiting, along with the rectification and in some cases (brands/models)
power to the transformer that is for the internal power supplies for the drive.
DC buss: Used for various reasons
- to buss-connect drives one to another, in order to be able to use
recovered energy from one drive to offset the power used by another
- to connect an external module referred to as a braking module.
Technically it is not doing the braking (the drive is doing that) but is
dumping the energy (into a resistor) that is being generated in order to
keep the voltage on the buss to reasonable limits
- some drives are capable of being "DC system" drives where the drives are
powered via their DC buss connections all the time, and the system buss has
a system controller on the line input for regenerating excess energy onto
the line, controlling start-up inrush etc.
The third terminal on a drive associated with the DC buss is the "brake"
terminal to which an external resistor can be connected (typically between
the buss+ and the brake terminals) the internal transistor controls that
'braking' resistor.
Note that the DC buss terminals are exactly that - no inrush limiting, high
fault current available, etc. so care must be taken if using these terminals.
The project that we are working on using Elettronica Santerno drives (
http://www.elettronicasanterno.it/index.php?lang=1 ) we had engineering
advice where they advised us some important considerations (via their
Australian representatives NHP http://www.nhp.com.au/ for whom they have
tailored a range of drives - up to 2000kW - to suit Aussie
applications/conditions).
1) they (Elettronica Santerno) have used their drives in a lot of renewable
energy and similar applications where they are running from DC using inrush
protection that is tailored to it. Their DC input applications are from
280VDC to 970VDC in various ranges but I am not sure what the maximum
voltage that the 280VDC buss can cope with.
2) We are going to be backing up their drives power via the DC buss
connections and blocking diodes so that the drives can draw from the
battery but not deliver to it. On start-up we have to power up the drives
via AC and one we have them all powered, then we close the DC support
contactor.
3) Although they have never heard of anyone using a drive this way before,
they are happy it will be fine to the extent that they are considering this
to be an application that does not affect the 3-year warranty when
installed with all the necessary fuses, etc.
So, it is possible with current industrial technology to have an AC motor
inverter that can run in a situation where the supply is from DC, but it
varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. ABB sponsored a land speed record
contender with their drives using 600VDC and orbitals
http://www.speedace.info/emotion_specifications.htm although by the lack of
song-and-dance about the batteries I'm guessing that they didn't get much
of a deal on them, unlike ABB who were obviously a bigger sponsor. Two 50hp
rated servo motors, I'm guessing significantly over-driven by the number of
fans on them! They state 650hp, which would be 350hp per motor, and at 600V
(I'd guess a 600V nominal pack, 50 batteries in series, 900kg of them for a
single string (probable from their statement of 1600kg total car weight)
Anyone feel like calculating if they've got enough energy to make their record?
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David and All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
Whoo-hoo, I knew this would be fun! :)
When I think 0-60 mph, I think of what you can read in Motor Trend and Road and Track.
What, you leave out the most important magazine, Car and Driver? I find
it odd, that an EV fan like yourself leaves out the #1 car magazine in
the world...you know...Car and Driver...the one that's coming out with a
four page spread about high performance EVs? (unlike the two you did
mention)
True, you didn't limit yourself to production cars, but you have to admit 0-60
is the vernacular of the car magazines more than the drag strip.
Virtually 'everyone' at the drag strip talks of 0-60 times! True, it's
not one of the measured performance parameters at the track (wish it
was), but it is certainly a yardstick often brought up by all the racers.
I will admit though, that you are correct that at the track the 60 ft.
time rules, and that on the street the 0-60 rules. 1/4 mile times
though, are 'very' much street relevant. Pretty much everyone that is
car savvy and has a high powered type street vehicle, be it a Vette, a
WRX, or a 911, knows what his or her car can do the quarter in.
Given that mind set, you are going to have alot of trouble finding a Motor
Trend 0-60 time of 2.X seconds.
No argument....there isn't 'any' 640 hp Mini sized car out there, and my
point exactly!
If there were though, it 'would' be putting down 0-60 in the 2s.
Consider this...640 hp in a 4000 lb. car is HUGE. The Ferrari Enzo is
about this weight and it actually 'has' 650 hp. It also is in the low
3s, as in 3.3 to 60 mph....no race track, no drag slicks, and just two
of its four tires putting the power to the pavement. The 505 hp Z06
Vette (not the stock issue Vette), the near $90,000 special order model,
weighs 3500 lbs. and accelerates 0-60 in a scant 3.7 seconds on street
tires on the street, not the track. Add another 150 hp to this car, and
it would drop to 3 seconds flat, perhaps even into the high 2s. As I
said, a whopping 640 hp in a Mini that 'should' weigh about 1000 lbs.
less than this Vette and with the advantage of all wheel drive would
again, run 0 to 60 in the 2s.
To get 2.x seconds takes things like drag tires, 90/10 shocks, a well prepped
sticky track surface, a stout differential,at a minimum good tires are needed,
traction bars...
Or four wheel drive, hub motors at each corner that eliminate the stout
diff., stump-pulling electric motor torque X 4, high traction DOT street
radials, and an actual delivered 640 hp. True, without that kind of
staggering hp, it could never do it....again, my point exactly.
Just throwing horsepower at the problem won't do it, even on an AWD.
We agree! However, with their highly touted engineering staff, a four
year run of 'intense research', and those seemingly deep set of pockets
that found just about every high tech component made to stuff into this
car, you'd think they had 'some' of it figured out. Now, if they could
only do math!
So I still stand by my statement that it is unreasonable to expect the Mini as
pictured, even if it had 640 hp of lithium batteries on board, to do 0-60 mph
in 2.X seconds.
And with 40 years under my belt of building and driving high powered
vehicles, a long history of racing, and as the owner of the quickest
accelerating 'street legal - street driven' electric door slammer, I
stand by mine.
They would be smart to slap on some drag slicks, go to a really sticky track, and do a big warmup burnout first
They would be smart to stop the BS and figure out the actual delivered
hp that includes voltage sag under the full current load. The next smart
move would be to put the wheels back under the fenders so the car isn't
so 'engineer designed' looking. The next smart move would then, be to
take it to a track, leave its street tires on and make some strong runs
to prove their 4 wheel drive point...they do love to point out its four
wheel drive advantage, after all. If they came away with 300 hp and 0-60
in 4.5 seconds, and I'd have nothing to say but ...Wow, impressive!
Instead, they BS about fictional hp, then give unexpected acceleration
figures considering such lofty hp numbers, making themselves look like
marketeering zealots, and giving EVs a black eye.
>The Tzero and Tesla do 0-60 in around 3.6 seconds and 4 seconds. How
much better would they be if they had all the drag race mods, >and ran
on a sticky track?
Not enough low end torque (compared to 2000 amp DC type) to worry about
with their AC drives. They get their acceleration numbers from
delivered hp (thanks mainly to the stout LiIon battery pack, not their
drive system) and just 'OK' torque. In addition, as much as I like the
Tesla, I understand they are having a hard time backing up their 4
second 0-60 claims, and that it is closer to 5 seconds right now....BIG
difference in that one second!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everybody. I've heard mention of 6.7" motors that can be picked up
relatively inexpensively. Would something like that be appropriate for a Fiat
500 conversion project? (That's the tiny air-cooled Fiat that looks like a
shrinky-dink Beetle, as I bet almost all of you know, but just in case ...)
How fast might I be able to whip something like that along? I'm still in
planning stages for a commuter EV. (I've ditched the idea of converting my
Jaguar, in case anyone's wondering ...)
Also was wondering if any of y'all could recommend a good book I can obtain to
learn some of the basics of this, so I can avoid bothering you with dumb
questions. (Hopefully the above wasn't one.) When it comes to this stuff, I'm a
real greenhorn.
Cheers!
--Finn
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--- Begin Message ---
At 12:08 PM 16/03/07 -0700, Mike Malmberg wrote:
I have an electric recumbent bike that I am rebuilding. The motor is a
24v approximately 800 watts. I can go with a chinese scooter controller
rated at 40 amps or a Curtis 24v 90 amp. I believe it is a mobility controller.
The bike's motor drive actually drives a 5 speed hub. Will the 90 amp
controller overdive the motor or does the motor take what it needs? The
curtis is of higher quality obviously. What do I do?
G'day Mike
800 watt motor, 800/24 = 33.3 amps. This should be its' continuous rating,
but maybe not (see how hot you get it once done, if too hot to hold your
hand on the case it is probably too hot). The Curtis should have a current
limit potentiometer that would allow you to turn the current limit down and
it will be loafing along.
The cheapie chinese one will weigh less, but be running close to its'
limit. If it fails, how big a hassle will it be for you? if no biggie, then
try the cheapie chinese one. If it is important for reliability then use
the Curtis, and closely watch your motor heat.
The curtis can/will drive 90A into a stalled (stopped) motor. As the motor
speed comes up the motor generates an internal voltage (back EMF) that
reduces the "slope" between battery voltage and motor voltage. Once the
"slope" becomes low enough the controller comes out of current limit and
the motor then has 24V on it (at full throttle). As the motor continues to
rev up the current continues to fall. If you gear it right it will be OK,
if you gear it to rev too low you will have high current in the motor all
the time and burn it out.
Hoe this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think what mean clutch-pedal-less.
I will be able to put the car in neutral.
--- FRED JEANETTE MERTENS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I was going to go clutchless until lee hart told me
> the story of one of his friends who could not stop
> after a relay failure . it is a good safe
> disconnect.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 12:50 AM
> Subject: RE: shunt motor controller?
>
>
> From: Mike Golub
> > Maybe I meant clutchless, not direct drive.
> > Would clutchless work with the shunt motor?
>
> Yes. Clutch vs. no clutch isn't affected (much) by
> the type of motor. It mainly affects driveability.
> It's easier to shift with a clutch. Though, if your
> motor/controller combination doesn't require much
> shifting, or your transmission happens to be one
> that is easy to shift without a clutch, it doesn't
> make much difference.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:27 PM 16/03/07 -0700, Finn wrote:
Hi everybody. I've heard mention of 6.7" motors that can be picked up
relatively inexpensively. Would something like that be appropriate for a
Fiat 500 conversion project? (That's the tiny air-cooled Fiat that looks
like a shrinky-dink Beetle, as I bet almost all of you know, but just in
case ...)
G'day Finn
Depends *which* 6.7" motor, but yes, http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/206 is
Markos' Fiat 600 as an illustration. 50 miles of range, but how much of a
"marketing" range that is I don't know.
IIRC John Wayland knows Markos' vehicle well, and may be able to chime in
with "real world" stats. John?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I noticed that some battery cable lugs are solid copper and some are plated.
Are the plated ones better? What advantages and disadvantages do they have?
And what metal are they plated with?
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I would chime in here since I am a Altairnano shareholder. From a
shareholder's perspective, the company is past the early testing stage and
needs to show they can deliver a good commercial product. They need to work
with Phoenix, UQM, ALCOA, AES and other partners to get the products to market
and show a profit to shareholders. Some shareholders and investors have waited
a long time to see results so if I were Altair, I would have politely said "I'm
sorry but we cannot accomodate your needs at this time". It would be wrong of
them to just keep dragging things on as you are clearly not at the top of their
priority list.
If anyone is interested, they can listen to the latest shareholders
conference call (March 8th, 2007) at
http://www.altairnano.com/investors.html
The specs for their Altair batteries are
2.3V
11AH
200 amp discharge
25.3wh energy
125wh/l energy density
75wh/kg specific energy
20,000 cycles
-40 to +75 deg C rating
I too would love to get a free test pack.
EZESPORT
Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What would be taking it the "wrong way"? I shared your exact perspective
about a month ago, giving the situation the benefit of the doubt, but instead
of testing batteries, I ended up testing their integrity, giving them every
opportunity to, and they failed to even give me a link to independently sourced
data they said they had.
None of this episode was ever about helping out an EV hobbyist. It was about
providing a developmental company with an opportunity to prove their wares. I
offered them the credentials of my Test Engineering background with NASA and
Boeing, but they didn't care. A freak with a scooter was good enough!
As far as what batteries are in the Pheonix? Well, I saw with my own eyes at
the Solar conference something that looked like about a group 27 or 29 battery
and it had an Altairnano logo on it. It appeared to even have an anode and
cathode, but that's all I really know.
-Sam
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 3:17 pm
To: [email protected]
Please don't take this the wrong way, but they're probably busy trying to build
a new business with developing technology while coordinating everything that
needs to be done in order to fulfill existing contracts while trying to provide
a return for their shareholders. I would guess that helping out EV hobbyists
isn't their first priority, regardless of any agreements or understandings that
may have been made.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jessie Lubke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 5:35:57 PM
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
Wow, Sam, this is a big bummer. I was really trying to keep the faith in
Altair despite their suspicious behavior. Thanks for the footwork you've
done - I'd certainly rather know the truth than sustain false hope.
What do you think they've been using in those Phoenix cars? Phoenix
representatives claim that their vehicles run on Altairnano's fancy
batteries.
jessielectric
On 3/16/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Below is pasted plain text of my last communication to Altairnano, which
> was in response to a phone call from their last rep that I was "hot
> potatoed" to. In that conversation Bob Goebel stated he was assigned
> to defend my "attack" on his boss, Al Gotcher, and used the excuse that
> their was no paperwork, for which I had vouched. He also said they had
> independent test results, but has failed to date to send me those
> sources or results.
>
> So, the facts are:
>
> 1. Roy Graham and Veselin Manev of Altairnano made a verbal agreement to
> send me a test pack at the October 2006 Solar conference in San Jose,
> CA. Roy stated that they could make a pack available for a road test
> in January of 2007. They requested I send test pack requirements.
> Altairnano investor/Physicist Richard Morse was present as witness.
>
> 2. I forwarded the requested technical requirements, and sample test
> data using an old set of hawkers as "placeholders" (for emulating the
> conditions the batteries would be subjected to), to Veselin Manev, and
> didn't hear back.
>
> 3. Roy Graham left the company to become an "Alternative Energy
> Consultant".
>
> 4. I followed through, and Al Gotcher, the new CEO, called me in late
> January 2007. He offered that they might be able to provide a 90
> Amp-hr 12V cell to test, and I replied that that was inadequate for the
> proposed road test per the requirements I had sent them (absolute
> minimum 24V, but if they wanted valuable results, 48V). He said he
> would talk to his "guys" and see what he could do.
>
> 5. I sent the ultimatum (which Bob Goebel called an "attack directed at
> my boss"), posted earlier on this list, and enter Bob Goebel to bring
> you up to date.
>
> So, while this may not be legal proof that they are a fraud, feel free
> to spread the facts.
>
> The purpose of this test was to provide positive press for a legitimate
> energy storage developer. Using my 20 mi/Kw-hr scoot, a GPS, and
> battery/controller data acquisition, I can prove a given set of
> batteries endured certain real road conditions (Pack Amps, Pack Volts,
> Motor Amps, Diode Temperature, etc,) while I travelled a given distance
> at a given speed and acceleration profile. Unlike racing, this is a
> real world, practical application test. I would expect a company with
> real technology would invite such a test, and follow through on it,
> especially if I am willing to maintain confidentiality of results until
> their approval and release of it, thereby eliminating any question of
> the credibility of the results.
>
> -Sam
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Agreements and Data
> From: Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 09, 2007 4:28 pm
> To: Bob Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Dear Bob: Thanks for your follow-through regarding independent
> testing of the Altairnano batteries. If you have links to true,
> independent, objective test results of your Nano-Titanate cells, please
> reply with links to that data and I will forward that information to
> concerned entities (to remain confidential) that have been anticipating
> test results from myself. As it is apparent that you have only
> partial information regarding the history of the testing agreement
> conversation between Altairnano and myself, I will briefly recap for
> you. First, I have represented myself to Altairnano as an individual
> with a background in R&D and test Engineering. "Electrikeel" is a
> domain name I have reserved for the work I perform in the Marine
> Electrical and Navigation Electronics industry, and currently use for
> email communication. At the Solar 2006 conference in San Jose (October
> 2006), Roy Graham, Veselin Manev, and Altairnano Investor/Physicist
> Richard Morse were present when I presented a Newspaper article to them
> publicizing a round-trip Port Townsend to Seattle, WA trip on a custom
> electric vehicle I had designed and built. That is when a verbal
> agreement was made to perform road testing on a prototype Altairnano
> pack to be conducted in January of 2007. The test purpose was to
> subject the batteries to real road travel operating conditions and
> measure their performance, while using GPS data to prove the vehicle
> travelled from point "A" to Point "B". Since that conference I have
> vouched for the opportunity to sign necessary paperwork and perform the
> testing. I have also provided battery pack test parameters and sample
> test data, but Altairnano's response has been at best fragmented to
> date, which is why we have no paperwork. Although I will continue to
> avail myself if Altairnano is serious about a publicized "road test", I
> am not going to continue to push for it, as there is nothing in it for
> me other than a first-hand account of the performance of your
> batteries. From what I can gather, the Li-Phosphate technology has
> superior energy density performance and competitve performance
> characteristics in all other important areas pertinent to Electric
> Vehicle applications, and I can get my hands on those cells in 2
> business days. I remain in the support of the development of legitimate
> technologies that make a contribution to environmentally responsible
> energy use, and wish Altairnano the best of luck in making that
> contribution.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
> From: "Jessie Lubke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 12:05 pm
> To: [email protected]
>
> I assume you haven't received the test pack?
>
>
>
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