EV Digest 6565
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor choice for a Fiat 500 project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Dual controller/motors?
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Plated Battery Cable Lugs
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dual controller/motors?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fictitional 640hp Mini
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EVLN(CITRIS UC Santa Cruz Electric Vehicle Symposium coverage)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC Drives on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Altairnano Ultimatum... DAH !
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Plated Battery Cable Lugs
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Power boost concepts
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Question about optimal gear ratio and where to get gearboxes
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> There's no avoiding a simple fact - an EV drive system has a
> fraction of the moving parts that an ICE drive has.
Inarguable. GREAT POINT!
> With all the electronics in the modern ICE, it has little if
> any advantage over a comparably equipped EV.
Matter of opinion, I guess. Energy density makes it an apples-to-oranges
comparison. Comparisons equate even less well when mapping simple, basic
EVs against the level of complexity that consumers have come to expect
in most ICEs. My folks just bought a car that has doo-dads that remember
where the seats and mirrors were for each driver, with programmable
temperature zones for driver and passenger... <grin> ...a far cry from
the hand-crank window and vent-window in my Dodge, and even further from
the planned no-frills, no-doors, no-windows, no-roof 3-wheeler I plan.
FINDING a comparable EV and ICE is tough!
> If produced in comparable quantity, and refined to a comparable
> degree, the EV eventually almost >has< to win out in overall
> reliability and ownership cost.
FWIW, I mostly agree, but the number of parts is just one axis of
comparison... MBTF of those parts play into it, as well.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ...I think the reliability question is a red herring.
> The big goal is to get greener vehicles on the road.
Who sets the goals?
My goals are increased fun behind the wheel, decreased driving cost, and
green runs a distant third... perhaps a fourth, behind
learning/experimenting.
Different people, different motivators.
Viva le difference'!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bet it would work at 120vdc or so. An L91 might be just what you need. I
bet Jim Husted could put something together for you. 12 Optimas or Exides &
you might have a peppy ev conversion. Look at Marko's 600 on the ev photo
album.. It's just a little bigger. He can get 12 big Optimas in. I have a
couple of Forklift motors that might do the trick but I'm saving them for a
dual motor VW conversion. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Finn John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 8:27 PM
Subject: Motor choice for a Fiat 500 project
> Hi everybody. I've heard mention of 6.7" motors that can be picked up
relatively inexpensively. Would something like that be appropriate for a
Fiat 500 conversion project? (That's the tiny air-cooled Fiat that looks
like a shrinky-dink Beetle, as I bet almost all of you know, but just in
case ...)
>
> How fast might I be able to whip something like that along? I'm still in
planning stages for a commuter EV. (I've ditched the idea of converting my
Jaguar, in case anyone's wondering ...)
>
> Also was wondering if any of y'all could recommend a good book I can
obtain to learn some of the basics of this, so I can avoid bothering you
with dumb questions. (Hopefully the above wasn't one.) When it comes to this
stuff, I'm a real greenhorn.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --Finn
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
Games.
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most excellent. Great interview Otmar!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:13 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
>
>
> Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
> http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
First up.. just wondering if there any many aussies
here, and if there is
interest in Australia for EV's?
Secondly, I know not many people are using AC drive
systems, but any
opinions on using a dual Curtis 1238 (80V, 550A)
controllers with dual AC
motors as direct drives (either working together to
single drive shaft, or
separately to a powered wheel each)? This is in a 1200
kg vehicle (including
batteries).
If it works out in terms of performance (top speed
120+ km/hr, acceleration,
0-100 km/hr around 7 sec) then it would be a cheap AC
system? With regen and
traction control.
Cheers
Rod
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:53 PM 16/03/07 -0800, Bruce wrote:
I noticed that some battery cable lugs are solid copper and some are
plated. Are the plated ones better? What advantages and disadvantages do
they have? And what metal are they plated with?
G'day Bruce, and All
Unplated cable ends tend to have more corrosion issues than plated ones.
Plated ones are usually tin plated, sometimes solder plated. With the RoHS
(Reduction of Hazardous Substances) that has come in I'm guessing plain tin
plating would be the standard now.
If you are soldering terminals on (not recommended in an automotive
environment as the end of the solder causes a hard spot unsuported in the
cable outside of the terminal that then stresses the strands, breaks them 1
by 1 and the cable may break through) then the plating 'wets' the surface
for good soldering to it.
Crimped connections are (when done properly) cold welding the copper of the
strands to copper of the lug. A perfect crimp join has solid copper from
the crimping process through the crimp area. The plating means there is no
corrosion in the join (when the terminal is new). Non-tinned terminals have
a higher chance of corrosion as copper gets its' first oxide layer pretty
quickly, where tin takes a lot longer to oxidise.
When bolting up to a lead terminal, the tin (IIRC) will mate with the lead
better than plain copper (the molecules 'fit' better together), and again
there is the oxide issue.
Another thing to note is that most terminals have a small hole at the end
of the tubular part. This hole is there as part of a diabolical anti-EV
plan of colluding wire and terminal manufacturers' to allow battery acid
corrosion in onto the wire and wreck the termination, making you need to
re-do your terminals and cables fairly often (just kidding about the
anti-EV collusion). Seriously, slide a bit of glue-lined heat-shrink tubing
over the terminal after it is made, covering from about 1/4" (minimum) of
cable insulation right through to be long enough to cover up that little
hole. Make sure to get the terminal hot enough for the glue to stick
properly, and you shouldn't have corrosion problems.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:53 AM 15/03/07 -0700, Rod wrote:
Bob Gruenwald has converted many Reliance and Yaskawa
drives for EV's, including formula lighting vehicles.
Here's his Dodge van,
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/377
Formula Lightning
http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~formula/owners/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Lightning
I couldn't find these in the EValbum?
G'day Rod, and All
Rod, can you expand on that a bit, as it would seem that from the little
amount of information that is in the links you've provided that Bob has
used modified industrial motors and built his own electronics (not modified
standard drives), especially for the traction application?
Thanks
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:26 AM 17/03/07 -0700, Rodney wrote:
Hey all
First up.. just wondering if there any many aussies
here, and if there is interest in Australia for EV's?
G'day Rodney
Yes there are a few Aussie EVers and EV-wannabes (like me) on the list, and
a bunch more that are not on the list. There is an Australian EV
association that was started some time in the '70s, was active until about
'98, then seemingly did nothing for 5 years or more, then recently had a
flurry of interest and seems to have gone quiet again, except for the
Sydney branch which seems to be doing its' own thing.
Secondly, I know not many people are using AC drive
systems, but any
opinions on using a dual Curtis 1238 (80V, 550A)
controllers with dual AC
motors as direct drives (either working together to
single drive shaft, or
separately to a powered wheel each)? This is in a 1200
kg vehicle (including batteries).
Being AC it would be better to put them seperate to stop them fighting each
other, but being fairly low on power you probably should be using a gearbox
- catch 22....
If it works out in terms of performance (top speed
120+ km/hr, acceleration,
0-100 km/hr around 7 sec) then it would be a cheap AC
system? With regen and traction control.
It would be, good performance for $s, if you can work out the drive line...
I'm in Tassie, where are you?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having had a look at their official spec for the vehicle there is no
mention of power at all, whcih leads me to wonder if they weren't
asked to provide a ballpark figure just for the sake of the press for
the reader to make comparisons with.
Here's their spec........
http://tinyurl.com/2epu89
They do quote a torque figure, and that can be easily converted to
power, but there is almosta presumed accpetance that the power would
be delivered only under ideal conditions, with good batteries, that
11Farad supercap doing it's work and so on.
Power output for petrol cars is only the peak figure, and they
often , rather inefficiently, make much less power.
I'm led to believe that they didn't set out to make a racing car
which they could boast about, but as they say, make a car which makes
the big companies look like the they're dragging their feet , and in
that sense they've succeeded in realising a vision which can be
demonstrated to real people who probably rarely experience 250Hp in
their day to day lives anyway.
Let's not admonish the role of the internet press in this, they
often know little of what they talk about most of the time and often
prefer coloquial terms of phrase. And the leads us to the readers,
many of whom want an article to either smash their preconceived ideas
or reinforce them all in the first paragraph or they read something
else.
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello David and All,
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> >Whoo-hoo, I knew this would be fun! :)
> >
> >When I think 0-60 mph, I think of what you can read in Motor Trend
and Road and Track.
> >
>
> What, you leave out the most important magazine, Car and Driver? I
find
> it odd, that an EV fan like yourself leaves out the #1 car magazine
in
> the world...you know...Car and Driver...the one that's coming out
with a
> four page spread about high performance EVs? (unlike the two you
did
> mention)
>
> >True, you didn't limit yourself to production cars, but you have
to admit 0-60 is the vernacular of the car magazines more than the
drag strip.
> >
> >
>
> Virtually 'everyone' at the drag strip talks of 0-60 times! True,
it's
> not one of the measured performance parameters at the track (wish
it
> was), but it is certainly a yardstick often brought up by all the
racers.
>
> I will admit though, that you are correct that at the track the 60
ft.
> time rules, and that on the street the 0-60 rules. 1/4 mile times
> though, are 'very' much street relevant. Pretty much everyone that
is
> car savvy and has a high powered type street vehicle, be it a
Vette, a
> WRX, or a 911, knows what his or her car can do the quarter in.
>
> >
> >Given that mind set, you are going to have alot of trouble finding
a Motor Trend 0-60 time of 2.X seconds.
> >
> >
>
> No argument....there isn't 'any' 640 hp Mini sized car out there,
and my
> point exactly!
>
> If there were though, it 'would' be putting down 0-60 in the 2s.
> Consider this...640 hp in a 4000 lb. car is HUGE. The Ferrari Enzo
is
> about this weight and it actually 'has' 650 hp. It also is in the
low
> 3s, as in 3.3 to 60 mph....no race track, no drag slicks, and just
two
> of its four tires putting the power to the pavement. The 505 hp Z06
> Vette (not the stock issue Vette), the near $90,000 special order
model,
> weighs 3500 lbs. and accelerates 0-60 in a scant 3.7 seconds on
street
> tires on the street, not the track. Add another 150 hp to this car,
and
> it would drop to 3 seconds flat, perhaps even into the high 2s. As
I
> said, a whopping 640 hp in a Mini that 'should' weigh about 1000
lbs.
> less than this Vette and with the advantage of all wheel drive
would
> again, run 0 to 60 in the 2s.
>
> >
> >To get 2.x seconds takes things like drag tires, 90/10 shocks, a
well prepped sticky track surface, a stout differential,at a minimum
good tires are needed, traction bars...
> >
>
> Or four wheel drive, hub motors at each corner that eliminate the
stout
> diff., stump-pulling electric motor torque X 4, high traction DOT
street
> radials, and an actual delivered 640 hp. True, without that kind of
> staggering hp, it could never do it....again, my point exactly.
>
> >Just throwing horsepower at the problem won't do it, even on an
AWD.
> >
> >
>
> We agree! However, with their highly touted engineering staff, a
four
> year run of 'intense research', and those seemingly deep set of
pockets
> that found just about every high tech component made to stuff into
this
> car, you'd think they had 'some' of it figured out. Now, if they
could
> only do math!
>
> >So I still stand by my statement that it is unreasonable to expect
the Mini as pictured, even if it had 640 hp of lithium batteries on
board, to do 0-60 mph in 2.X seconds.
> >
>
> And with 40 years under my belt of building and driving high
powered
> vehicles, a long history of racing, and as the owner of the
quickest
> accelerating 'street legal - street driven' electric door slammer,
I
> stand by mine.
>
> > They would be smart to slap on some drag slicks, go to a really
sticky track, and do a big warmup burnout first
> >
>
> They would be smart to stop the BS and figure out the actual
delivered
> hp that includes voltage sag under the full current load. The next
smart
> move would be to put the wheels back under the fenders so the car
isn't
> so 'engineer designed' looking. The next smart move would then, be
to
> take it to a track, leave its street tires on and make some strong
runs
> to prove their 4 wheel drive point...they do love to point out its
four
> wheel drive advantage, after all. If they came away with 300 hp and
0-60
> in 4.5 seconds, and I'd have nothing to say but ...Wow, impressive!
> Instead, they BS about fictional hp, then give unexpected
acceleration
> figures considering such lofty hp numbers, making themselves look
like
> marketeering zealots, and giving EVs a black eye.
>
>
> >The Tzero and Tesla do 0-60 in around 3.6 seconds and 4 seconds.
How
> much better would they be if they had all the drag race mods, >and
ran
> on a sticky track?
>
>
> Not enough low end torque (compared to 2000 amp DC type) to worry
about
> with their AC drives. They get their acceleration numbers from
> delivered hp (thanks mainly to the stout LiIon battery pack, not
their
> drive system) and just 'OK' torque. In addition, as much as I like
the
> Tesla, I understand they are having a hard time backing up their 4
> second 0-60 claims, and that it is closer to 5 seconds right
now....BIG
> difference in that one second!
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(CITRIS UC Santa Cruz Electric Vehicle Symposium coverage)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.cityonahillpress.com/article.php?id=462
Health/Science Fueling the Way, Gasoline Free By Rachel Stern
Top auto manufacturers strut their stuff at UC Santa Cruz
Electric Vehicle Symposium
In the United States, cars and trucks99 percent of which run on
petroleumuse two-thirds of all the countrys petroleum and
one-third of all its energy.
At UC Santa Cruzs Electric Vehicle Symposium held this past
Saturday, many expressed their desire to lower these statistics
by increasing the number of battery-powered vehicles on the road
and racetrack.
>From 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. at the Jack Baskin School of Engineering,
industry leaders spoke on the social, political, technological,
and environmental implications of electric vehicles (EVs).
Santa Cruz Assemblyman John Laird introduced the symposium, as
well as the next speaker: a video of George Bushs Feb. 24
White House speech on the convenience of plug-in hybrids.
I dont know if what I say is going to compare, said Laird,
eliciting laughter from the audience.
Electric battery-powered vehicles can currently travel about 100
miles on one battery charge, and last for about 1,000 charges.
The EVs low driving range, short battery lifespan, overnight
charging period, and lack of charging stations are causes for
skepticism.
However, advances in lithium-ion-based battery technology are
allowing EVs to travel as far on one charge as a car can travel
on a full tank of gasoline.
Although the light-weight and rechargeable lithium-ion batteries
are currently about five times as expensive as conventional lead
acid batteries, many feel the costs will soon be decreased by an
increase in technologies.
The technology is there, Laird said. The question is: how do
the policies facilitate the technology?
EVs can also be powered by fuel cells, which convert hydrogen and
oxygen into water to produce electricity.
Marc Geller, the co-founder of Plug-In America, feels that even
current EV models hold their own, especially since 90 percent of
daily car trips do not exceed 100 miles.
Ive heard all the propaganda, said Geller, who appeared in last
summers documentary Who Killed the Electric Car?, which
documented the 2004 demise of General Motors (GM) EV 1. I drove
all the way here from San Francisco [and have a third of a
battery left]. Theres no denying it. Geller advocated plug-in
hybrid electric vehicleswhich have additional battery capacity
and the ability to be charged from an electrical outletas an
alternative for those worried that their EV battery would wear
out.
Its an electric vehicle with an insurance policy, he said.
After the symposium, and before driving back to San Francisco,
Geller took eager students for a ride in his Electric Toyota
RAV4.
Discontinued in 2003, the iconoclastic SUV is one of about 1,000
currently on the road in the United States.
Ian Wright, a professional racecar driver and founder of Silicon
Valley electric sports car manufacturer Wrightspeed, presented
the X1 high-performance electric car that he designed.
The X1 is only second in speed to the French-made Bugatti Veyron,
whichas the worlds fastest street-legal carhits the zero-60
acceleration mark a half second faster. The Veyron, however, gets
only eight miles to the gallon.
The X1 saves more than gas, Wright said. The X1 currently costs
about $100,000$1.4 million less than the Veyrons $1.5 million
price tag.
Numerous electric vehiclesas well as an $80,000 homemade
solar-powered car designed and constructed by attending UC
Berkeley Engineering studentssat on display outside of the
symposium.
In addition to the X1, the symposium included gasoline-powered
cars-turned-electric by AC Propulsion electric boxes, the NmGan
electric car with a one-person occupancyand light electric
vehicles such as bikes and scooters.
Upcoming electric cars include the Telsa Roadster (2007), Subaru
Re1 (2009), Mitsubishi Colt EV (2010), and GMs Chevy Volt
(2010).
Geller deemed GMs announcement of the Chevy Volt as a move to
please the public in the wake of the negative press spawned by
Who Killed the Electric Car?
Vladi Betkor, a graduate student in computer engineering at UCSC,
sees the new EVs as having the potential to break into a
gasoline-powered society.
But first, Betkor said while examining the cars on display, Its
a matter of changing peoples expectations of them.
Matt Bromage, also a graduate student in Computer Engineering,
chipped in, Theyre going to need to for the future.
According to Geller, Electric cars are the future.
Copyright ©2007 City on a Hill Press.
===
[Editor's Notes: I have put the images I took at this EVent at
http://brucedp07.150m.com/ucsc07/
]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.minivan.fluxvector.com/
Here's a post from Bob back in March 2002 on the list,
Bob Gruenwald wrote:
>
> Hello everyone.
> My name is Bob Gruenwald, I was on this list back in
97 and 98. I did AC
> controllers for EV's as a side job back then. Last
summer, I left my real
> job to do this fun stuff full time. I recently
re-subscribed to this list to
> find out what everyone was up to. I am amazed at all
the good discussion
> going on.
> I just posted some pictures and some information on
my electric minivan at
> http://www.minivan.fluxvector.com/
> I have not driven this vehicle lately, as I have a
lot of other EV projects
> going on right now. (I also robbed the Controller
out of it to use on my
> dynamometer test stand)
> I hope I can give back to this list what I got out
of it in the past.
> Thanks
>
> Bob Gruenwald
> Electric MotorSports
> 2072 Greenpine Dr
> Cincinnati, OH 45231
>
> Email mailto:bob_gruenwald at fluxvector.com
> Web www.fluxvector.com
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 05:53 AM 15/03/07 -0700, Rod wrote:
> >Bob Gruenwald has converted many Reliance and
> Yaskawa
> >drives for EV's, including formula lighting
> vehicles.
> >Here's his Dodge van,
> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/377
> >Formula Lightning
> >http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~formula/owners/
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Lightning
> >I couldn't find these in the EValbum?
>
> G'day Rod, and All
>
> Rod, can you expand on that a bit, as it would seem
> that from the little
> amount of information that is in the links you've
> provided that Bob has
> used modified industrial motors and built his own
> electronics (not modified
> standard drives), especially for the traction
> application?
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would say that altair guys had really good intentions to help one EV
guy here, but since there is 200x more customers with piles of dry cash
they had to priorize. You just can't serve em all.
All best to pioneers in Altair !
-Jukka
Peter Gabrielsson kirjoitti:
Imho, you don't exactly give the impression of an established and
respectable corporate entity, especially when you start resorting to
threats.
By your own admission your emails looks like spam and your website is
parked by godaddy. I'm surprised they didn't sort you into the
circular file right away.
I'm sorry you didn't manage to get a test pack, but, I wouldn't draw
any conclusions from your experience.
No disrespect intended
On 3/16/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What would be taking it the "wrong way"? I shared your exact
perspective
about a month ago, giving the situation the benefit of the doubt, but
instead of testing batteries, I ended up testing their integrity, giving
them every opportunity to, and they failed to even give me a link to
independently sourced data they said they had.
None of this episode was ever about helping out an EV hobbyist. It was
about providing a developmental company with an opportunity to prove
their
wares. I offered them the credentials of my Test Engineering background
with NASA and Boeing, but they didn't care. A freak with a scooter
was good
enough!
As far as what batteries are in the Pheonix? Well, I saw with my own
eyes
at the Solar conference something that looked like about a group 27 or 29
battery and it had an Altairnano logo on it. It appeared to even have an
anode and cathode, but that's all I really know.
-Sam
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 3:17 pm
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Please don't take this the wrong way, but they're probably busy
trying to
build a new business with developing technology while coordinating
everything that needs to be done in order to fulfill existing contracts
while trying to provide a return for their shareholders. I would
guess that
helping out EV hobbyists isn't their first priority, regardless of any
agreements or understandings that may have been made.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jessie Lubke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 5:35:57 PM
Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
Wow, Sam, this is a big bummer. I was really trying to keep the
faith in
Altair despite their suspicious behavior. Thanks for the footwork
you've
done - I'd certainly rather know the truth than sustain false hope.
What do you think they've been using in those Phoenix cars? Phoenix
representatives claim that their vehicles run on Altairnano's fancy
batteries.
jessielectric
On 3/16/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Below is pasted plain text of my last communication to Altairnano,
which
> was in response to a phone call from their last rep that I was "hot
> potatoed" to. In that conversation Bob Goebel stated he was assigned
> to defend my "attack" on his boss, Al Gotcher, and used the excuse
that
> their was no paperwork, for which I had vouched. He also said they
had
> independent test results, but has failed to date to send me those
> sources or results.
>
> So, the facts are:
>
> 1. Roy Graham and Veselin Manev of Altairnano made a verbal
agreement to
> send me a test pack at the October 2006 Solar conference in San Jose,
> CA. Roy stated that they could make a pack available for a road test
> in January of 2007. They requested I send test pack requirements.
> Altairnano investor/Physicist Richard Morse was present as witness.
>
> 2. I forwarded the requested technical requirements, and sample test
> data using an old set of hawkers as "placeholders" (for emulating the
> conditions the batteries would be subjected to), to Veselin Manev, and
> didn't hear back.
>
> 3. Roy Graham left the company to become an "Alternative Energy
> Consultant".
>
> 4. I followed through, and Al Gotcher, the new CEO, called me in late
> January 2007. He offered that they might be able to provide a 90
> Amp-hr 12V cell to test, and I replied that that was inadequate for
the
> proposed road test per the requirements I had sent them (absolute
> minimum 24V, but if they wanted valuable results, 48V). He said he
> would talk to his "guys" and see what he could do.
>
> 5. I sent the ultimatum (which Bob Goebel called an "attack
directed at
> my boss"), posted earlier on this list, and enter Bob Goebel to bring
> you up to date.
>
> So, while this may not be legal proof that they are a fraud, feel free
> to spread the facts.
>
> The purpose of this test was to provide positive press for a
legitimate
> energy storage developer. Using my 20 mi/Kw-hr scoot, a GPS, and
> battery/controller data acquisition, I can prove a given set of
> batteries endured certain real road conditions (Pack Amps, Pack Volts,
> Motor Amps, Diode Temperature, etc,) while I travelled a given
distance
> at a given speed and acceleration profile. Unlike racing, this is a
> real world, practical application test. I would expect a company with
> real technology would invite such a test, and follow through on it,
> especially if I am willing to maintain confidentiality of results
until
> their approval and release of it, thereby eliminating any question of
> the credibility of the results.
>
> -Sam
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Agreements and Data
> From: Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 09, 2007 4:28 pm
> To: Bob Goebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Dear Bob: Thanks for your follow-through regarding independent
> testing of the Altairnano batteries. If you have links to true,
> independent, objective test results of your Nano-Titanate cells,
please
> reply with links to that data and I will forward that information to
> concerned entities (to remain confidential) that have been
anticipating
> test results from myself. As it is apparent that you have only
> partial information regarding the history of the testing agreement
> conversation between Altairnano and myself, I will briefly recap for
> you. First, I have represented myself to Altairnano as an individual
> with a background in R&D and test Engineering. "Electrikeel" is a
> domain name I have reserved for the work I perform in the Marine
> Electrical and Navigation Electronics industry, and currently use for
> email communication. At the Solar 2006 conference in San Jose
(October
> 2006), Roy Graham, Veselin Manev, and Altairnano Investor/Physicist
> Richard Morse were present when I presented a Newspaper article to
them
> publicizing a round-trip Port Townsend to Seattle, WA trip on a custom
> electric vehicle I had designed and built. That is when a verbal
> agreement was made to perform road testing on a prototype Altairnano
> pack to be conducted in January of 2007. The test purpose was to
> subject the batteries to real road travel operating conditions and
> measure their performance, while using GPS data to prove the vehicle
> travelled from point "A" to Point "B". Since that conference I have
> vouched for the opportunity to sign necessary paperwork and perform
the
> testing. I have also provided battery pack test parameters and sample
> test data, but Altairnano's response has been at best fragmented to
> date, which is why we have no paperwork. Although I will continue to
> avail myself if Altairnano is serious about a publicized "road
test", I
> am not going to continue to push for it, as there is nothing in it for
> me other than a first-hand account of the performance of your
> batteries. From what I can gather, the Li-Phosphate technology has
> superior energy density performance and competitve performance
> characteristics in all other important areas pertinent to Electric
> Vehicle applications, and I can get my hands on those cells in 2
> business days. I remain in the support of the development of
legitimate
> technologies that make a contribution to environmentally responsible
> energy use, and wish Altairnano the best of luck in making that
> contribution.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Altairnano Ultimatum
> From: "Jessie Lubke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, March 16, 2007 12:05 pm
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
> I assume you haven't received the test pack?
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
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Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
"I noticed that some battery cable lugs are solid copper and some are
plated. Are the plated ones better? What advantages and disadvantages do
they have? And what metal are they plated with?"
Mick says: copper oxidizes just from exposure to air and copper oxide is not
as good a conductor as copper. Unplated copper also corrodes more than we
would like it to.
The plated lugs with a bright silver color are electroplated with tin. That
material conducts well when in good condition and does not degrade as
quickly as unplated copper. Degradation of the tin plating does eventually
occur, however, especially in a flooded electrolyte lead acid battery pack.
Some lugs are plated in lead, with a more dull appearance. Lead is less hard
and less conductive than new tin, but lead also corrodes less in the
presence of battery chemicals.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice job Otmar !
You really can see when someone ACTUALLY knows about EVs and tech
regarding.... A nice change in publicly showing videos. 8)
-Jukka
Mike Willmon kirjoitti:
Most excellent. Great interview Otmar!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
Roderick Wilde
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--- Begin Message ---
> Can I hook up a separate power source directly to the motor? If I
> already have a battery pack going to a controller and then the
> controller going to the motor can I have separate battery
> pack/controller hooked up to the motor as well?
Using two controllers on the same motor doesn't usually work unless they
are designed to work that way (most are not).
Assuming we are talking about DC controllers (AC controllers similaar but
different problems):
The problem with dual controllers is in the nature of how DC controllers
typically work. A controller varies the apparent voltage across the motor
by turning the motor on/off thousands of times per second and the ratio of
on to off controllers the motors voltage/speed. The longer it's on
relative to off, the higher the apparent voltage.
With dual controller, unless they are synchronized, it's possible to want
to go at half speed and have one controller on half the time and the other
controller on the OTHER half the time, net result FULL voltage at the
controller and FULL speed instead of 1/2 speed.
It's also possible to have them on at the same time, or to continuously
vary from being in sync to out of sync, resul: surging from 1/2 to full
speed.
So with two controllers you basically get no control.
> I assume the answer is
> yes if the voltage is the same and the total amps are in an acceptable
> level for the motor.
So the answer is typically NO, not yes.
> One concern is energy back flow. If both
> controllers are producing power to the motor at the same time could they
> send some or all of those amps into the other controller instead?
Generally no, the components in typical series controllers won't allow
voltage to flow backwards into the pack.
> If so
> can that be easily prevented? Furthermore, what about engine breaking
> and regen?
Hmm, regen means you aren't using a typical DC motor controller, so the
answers to the above now depend on exactly which controller you are
talking about.
> Can the motor [when breaking] allow one controller [provided
> it is a regen controller] to provide energy back to the batteries while
> the other controller does nothing?
Depends on the controller(s)
>
> Why consider this? The secondary controller can be used when the
> vehicle needs a little more power to accelerate from a stop light or
> merge in traffic, etc
which allows the primary batteries to avoid some
> amp draw spikes which will increase run time and battery life. Further,
> the secondary can be composed of different technologies than the primary
> pack.
If the battery types are the same, then you are better off simply hooking
the packs in parallel. If you are using different battery
chemistry/size/etc., then it is usually easier to just connect the
batteries together BEFORE the SINGLE controller in some manner that allows
you to only use the boost pack as needed.
It's usually cheaper to have one larger controller than two smaller ones,
and it avoids all of the syncronization problems.
Note: if you are using a typical DC series wound type motor controller,
one of the easiest ways to get more power is to use a controller bypass
contactor. I.e. a big relay that hooks the batteries directly to the
motor and bypasses the controller. You only get full power this way, but
you do get a bit more power than you will get through the controller and
there is no current limit. Some controllers support these and will only
pull in the bypass contactor when you are at a fairly high duty cycle
(high speed).
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
I'll second that! That was one of the most enjoyable interviews I've watched
about the subject in a long time. Otmar you're a great ambassador.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 9:58:53 AM
Subject: Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
Nice job Otmar !
You really can see when someone ACTUALLY knows about EVs and tech
regarding.... A nice change in publicly showing videos. 8)
-Jukka
Mike Willmon kirjoitti:
> Most excellent. Great interview Otmar!
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
>> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:13 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
>>
>>
>> Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
>> http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
>>
>> Roderick Wilde
>>
>>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
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> TIRE/WHEEL:
> 75 inches circumfrence
> 23.74 inches diameter
>
> STATS:
> max motor rpm, 7000
> 15.2574 ratio in 1st
> 8.189 ratio in 2nd
> 5.6461 in 3rd
>
> TOP SPEEDS:
> mph 1st=33mph
> mph 2nd=60mph
> mph 3rd=87mph
>
> The actual max motor rpm is 8000, so I'm being a little conservative here.
the motor rating (8000 rpm) is ALREADY a little conservative. You can
take it to 8,000 rpm with no problems, that would give you almost 70mph in
second. Personally, I'd use that RPM for my calculations and see if I
could find an aftermarket gear set that gives a ratio in between second
and third (but closer to second) say around 6.28:1.
Or perhaps see about mounting tires slightly larger/smaller and see what
happens with existing ratios.
> So, a 60mph top speed is too slow, so I'm thinking of locking the gearbox
> in 3rd gear. Since the electric motor has twice the torque early on versus
> the ICE engine, would 3rd be ok? Or would the acceleration be too slow?
If you have a multispeed transmission, I'm not sure why you'd want to lock
it in gear and loose all the advantages it offers. Your acceleration
might be acceptable, especially with smaller diamter tires, but you'd get
even better acceleration if you used second and then third (I wouldn't
bother with first).
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. I agree with everything Otmar said.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
I'll second that! That was one of the most enjoyable interviews I've
watched about the subject in a long time. Otmar you're a great
ambassador.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 9:58:53 AM
Subject: Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
Nice job Otmar !
You really can see when someone ACTUALLY knows about EVs and tech
regarding.... A nice change in publicly showing videos. 8)
-Jukka
Mike Willmon kirjoitti:
Most excellent. Great interview Otmar!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
Roderick Wilde
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
> I'll second that! That was one of the most enjoyable interviews I've
watched about the subject in a long time. Otmar you're a great ambassador.
> I'll third that, too.Now IF we could put stuff like this together for a
Who Killed the Electric Car "reply" movie, or something like that. JW you
havent been hit up, yet, by these guyz? Then a Tesla shop visit? Lottsa good
stuff out there to do a show on. A few Racing Shots in the program, too.
Gotta love You Tube, best thing to happen to TV in years. We are getting the
word out on line!
Seeya
Bob
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 9:58:53 AM
> Subject: Re: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
>
> Nice job Otmar !
>
>
> You really can see when someone ACTUALLY knows about EVs and tech
> regarding.... A nice change in publicly showing videos. 8)
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Mike Willmon kirjoitti:
> > Most excellent. Great interview Otmar!
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> >> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 10:13 PM
> >> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >> Subject: Otmar Ebenhoech on Peak Momment TV
> >>
> >>
> >> Here is a great new video featuring Otmar:
> >> http://www.peakmoment.tv/conversations/52.html
> >>
> >> Roderick Wilde
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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>
>
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