EV Digest 6594
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery Dilemma
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Battery Dilemma
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Setting Imax on a Raptor
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: virgin flight
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Sharing what I have learned so far in the NIMH experiments
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: gensets was charging while driving question
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: gensets was charging while driving question
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Converting a mini classic
by Jean-Michel Mistrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Converting a mini classic
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: gensets was charging while driving question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Converting a mini classic
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Converting a mini classic
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: gensets was charging while driving question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Converting a mini classic
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Converting a mini classic
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think your idea of the dolly tow is great (gets the drive/steering wheels
off the ground) but there can be probs with 4 wheels on the ground... in
many vehicles.
I made a near loss mistake w/ one of my cars that way. It seems the bumper
wasn't strong enough to tow by. I thought the guys who built the hitch knew
what they were doing. Once the bumper fell off (just moments after I came to
a stop on the freeway, after 1500 miles) it was obvious. The bumper was
plenty strong... the mounts weren't. <g> The CB radio paid for itself that
day.
A friend didn't have his key turned on in the towed vehicle. The wheels
locked sideways. That was another interesting few minutes. <g>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
> Yes, I know - mounting a tow hookup on the towed vehicle
> could mean some mods: I have now two small holes in my EV's
> front bumper. But I can tow it anywhere I want by only
> borrowing someone's vehicle with hitch...
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats just it, they don't get noticebly warm, they don't vent, they
bounce back to read near same voltage as surrounding batteries. I have
pretty much decided that AGM's lie without a load.
I have always had regulators. I did once reverse a cell (a regulator got
stuck on and took it down to like 6V and I pushed it to get to a show) ,
so I do know what it is like, However I "recommissioned" that battery
and it is showing as one of the strongest. Go figure.
Unfortunately it looks like they want to analyze before saying anything.
:-(
It seems to have gotten more solid recently as the weather has warmed
up, and my wh/mile improved when I reduced the timeing on my motor(but
it still sucks).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct, I see them bounce back to 12V as soon as load is removed,
but even with a puny 30A load they drop within several seconds
if they are partly discharged.
I know I have to test them at load always to discover this effect.
The only other indication is the high resistance:
when you put such a battery on a 12V charger (below 15V) then the
current will start at zero and slowly ramp up to max, then the
voltage will drop until it is somewhere around 13V and the battery
will charge normally, but with very reduced capacity.
When charging the pack, the effect is hardly noticeable, because the
high resistance cells will get hit with high voltage and will
ramp up in current quickly, but you can still see an overshoot in
charge voltage when starting the charger, until the pack charges normally.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 3:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Battery Dilemma
Thats just it, they don't get noticebly warm, they don't vent, they bounce
back to read near same voltage as surrounding batteries. I have pretty much
decided that AGM's lie without a load.
I have always had regulators. I did once reverse a cell (a regulator got
stuck on and took it down to like 6V and I pushed it to get to a show) , so
I do know what it is like, However I "recommissioned" that battery and it is
showing as one of the strongest. Go figure.
Unfortunately it looks like they want to analyze before saying anything.
:-(
It seems to have gotten more solid recently as the weather has warmed up,
and my wh/mile improved when I reduced the timeing on my motor(but it still
sucks).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, there is a couple of reasons. The uphill shift is part of it, but the
biggest reason is weight sift due to wind resistance. I usually travel at
75-80mph and the wind on the load really pushes the weight to the rear. I
don't like to have a load that's fine to 65mph, and then suddenly it's not,
and it's fishtailing like crazy. It's really hard to get out of that.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:38 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
Why the 60/40 ratio. I've always just used a little tounge weight. Is it
because of the weight shift on hills? Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd posted RE: getting huge sags on my brand new pack
o' floodies.
That brought little response. Hence I'm going to
describe things from this angle:
Let's say I crank up max current to 1200A.
The batteries will send so much current to the motor
that the current sags for less time?
Right now, I have it set to a max of <400A. This
means the battery voltage sags for a longer time, so
that my meter has a greater likelihood of "seeing"
that huge sag.
So, what say you experts? Do I set the Imax as high
as I can, to _avoid_ low sags and the potential of
reversing cells, or do I crank _up_ the max current,
thinking the voltage will sag for a much shorter time,
due to the higher current the controller is sending?
Appreciatively,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> you gotta give 15 minutes charging time for every month the umoc isnt
connected...seemd unlikely but i left it hooked up anyway overnight.
My guess is that it has a battery (or supercapacitor) backup which needs to
charge before giving reliable operation and storage of parameters.
Great to hear your motor/controller are OK. Success with the EV. Try to keep
illegal or private stuff off the list, as it is publicly stored and
searchable, so a future employer, partner or a family member can stumble
across all that you post in your enthusiasm.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 4:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: virgin flight
wanting to order batteries already, i decided to finally test my motor and
controller - i hooked up my solectria ac42 3-phase motor to its umoc445tf
controller, after having faked a little controller box (fwd/rev,speed,on/off
etc) and a dc high voltage 'battery' supply (2 5000uF capacitors and a full
wave rectifier in a cardboard box) ..
nothing.
ug, i must;ve been sold a dud down the river. this after having been stood
up by a honey i'd been hot for for weeks, booted from a competition i spent
tons of time preparing for, and burnt out the motor head of my suzuki alto
(tho the ice's loss is the electric's gain)
anyway i checked out the manual, saw you gotta give 15 minutes charging time
for every month the umoc isnt connected...seemd unlikely but i left it
hooked up anyway overnight.
this morning i tried for some rpms once again...and the motor started
bucking around like a newborn foal!! christmas morning in haifa. son of a
gun.
ice'd my way up to honey's place and banged on her door until i wrangled a
promise of face time tonight...life is sweet again
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
You are using the wrong tools for charging NiMH batteries. The formula
is Delta T/ Delta T. I am not going to look up the exact figures but
will approximate them as well as my memory will allow. You charge them
up to a maximum of 35 degrees C not to exceed a rate of faster then 2
1/2 degrees per minute. If the ambient temperatures are up near the 35
degree C limit you can charge at a rate of 2.5 degrees per minute until
you run out of amps.
I have two packs of early Prius batteries (76) which I have discharged
to approximately 20% SOC and then charged up to 90% to 95% SOC several
times. This is to about 8.4 volts per 6 cell battery. They self
discharge at an ever decreasing rate to about 7.63 volts where they seem
to stay almost indefinitely.
These are 7.2 nominal volt Batteries. The two packs I bought were out
of wrecks and had been stored for at least a year in an unheated shed,
and when I got them each battery checked out at exactly 7.63 volts.
Gold Peak builds a battery very similar to these only a little better.
You might ask them for a table of charging algorithms.
I hope this helps you.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 5:39 PM
To: ev
Subject: Sharing what I have learned so far in the NIMH experiments
I have been running experiments trying to find a good home for a few
hundred NiMH F cells that came out of a friend's EV project. He did not
have a good BMS and his battery setup ended in a fire that damaged about
half the cells. I am in the process of sorting through and trying make
something of what is left.
So far, I have discovered:
1. These particular 13 AH F cells do not do very well in high rates of
discharge. They were originally fused at 40 A, but I don't feel good
about taking these particular (now used) cells above 2C (26 Amps). I am
concerned about cycle life and overall performance at discharge above
2C. This is just my opinion on these used cells. New ones may be a lot
better.
2. The cells are "nearly impossible" to charge repeatably and reliably
in parallel. Even at very slow charge rates, with attempts to keep the
max voltage below a critical value, I can't get good consistent results.
If you "fully discharge" them - down to about 0.9 V / cell and then try
to put in a constant current for a fixed time period, it may give some
fair to poor results. Beyond that, I have had no luck trying to charge
them in parallel. I thought just putting a 13.2 V constant voltage
supply across them and letting them sit would charge them. Well, the
experiment did not work well. At least not the way I did it. I tried
just charging them with a lead acid charger at 2 A rate. Unless you
accurately know the initial state of charge and use a timer, that
doesn't work well either. I also wanted to limit surge current between
the strings with polyswitches, but they don't sell ones rated for that
low of a current.
3. That all means that charging is a very serious issue and expensive,
bulky and heavy to overcome. All I can come up with as a good reliable
solution is 12 individual small 1 A smart NiMH chargers for each of the
84 cell strings. That is one 1 A charger per each group of 7 cells.
These chargers would have to be very inexpensive, small and light weight
to make this worth while. I am yet to find such a solution. Also, the
system is a reliability nightmare to deal with a failure on any of those
many many connections.
4. Discharging seems to be no issue. Simply put a diode and 13 A
polyswitch in series with each string. They can't "cross charge" that
way and the output is limited to 1C average and about 2 C peak, which is
what I wanted. I don't know how long the polyswitches will last though.
They may be a consumable in this setup.
5. Power density, even with all the mechanical "stuff" to hook the
cells together and mount them in the car. I'd say at least 30-40%
better than AGM lead acid. Maybe 50% if you find ways to save weight on
the structure.
6. I don't see any way to run a car, even a small one like mine,
purely on these particular (now used) F cells. Even if I had a few
thousand of them. At a 2C max discharge, I'd need 3360 of these cells
and 480 individual small chargers. That is "nearly impossible" to hook
up and probably would not fit in the car. Better cells would be a
different story.
7. Hooking up the cells is also a dilema. You need a DC parallel spot
welder (which I am very familiar with), but they are expensive. I ended
up using very high grade battery holders that can handle only about 25
A. That is another reason why I can't go over 2C discharge.
So, I'm not sure where all this is going. I need to run some more
experiments with charging at different rates and peak voltages. I am
open to suggestions.
Overall, I have to say that this is not the type of project an
inexperienced person of beginner to the EV world should try. There is a
serious danger if these cells are used improperly. Because I have a lot
of experience making these packs, I am comfortable with the tests that I
am running, but I would not recommend it to the average EV enthusiest.
I am open to comments and suggestions.
Steve
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: gensets was charging while driving question
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:49:58 -0700
>Since I started this genset business....
>
>Ok heres a quick sketch of my plan:
>
>1) goal- lightweight or ultralightweight green two-seater;
>prefer sexy technology ( i.e. stuff that might actually be
>used by an OEM) as it will be displayed at Earth days and
>such.
>
>2) Implementation: modular parts, stay with off-the-shelf
>wherever possible, avoid fabrication.
>
>3) Inspiration: the Rocky Mountain Institute's Ultra Car
>vision.
>
>Possible platform weights without driveline are:
>1200 lbs
>800 lbs
>600 lbs
That's all easy to do. I'm doing it now in 1200 lbs
including 720 lbs of lead batts.
The problem with RMI Hypercar is using carbon Fiber
and Fool Cells/H2 which will make it too expensive. But
otherwise seems to have the right idea.
>
>4) Greenness: assuming average smog and particulates ( i.e.
>no worse than my car) greenhouse gases are the most
>important target for reduction. Here in CA, we don't have
>much coal ( any?) fired grid power, and something like 20%
>renewable, so grid power is cleaner in smog terms for us
>than many places.
To be really green, light and strong, easy to build,
do it in wood/plywood/epoxy ;^D
>
>What are the pounds-per-mile of greenhouse gases for an EV
>or a gas car ? I don't know, though its not hard to do the
>calculation, maybe I better!
Depends from which source, from wind, Hydro almost
none. From coal the worst, about the same as a Hybrid.
>
>here's how the clean genset idea fits in with EV:
>If the Lithium battery pack is going to cost in the
>thousands to get sufficient AH, and still require
>expensive and complex battery management, what are my
>choices?
That rather goes against your off the shelf goal and
not nessasary. Lead can get you 80-140 mile range depending
on speed if you do it right.
Well I can go to lead, and claim I'll switch to
>lighter batts when the cost comes down, but I can't retain
>the lightweight standard with a lead-based EV.
Why not? Say if you only needed 60-70 mile range you
can just use 48vdc of t-105's that only weight 480lbs which
would make my EV only 1000 lbs.
I could
>have a small lead or lithium or NIMH pack with a genset,
>or, go back to H2/NG/propane, or just build a
>super-efficient gas or diesel powered car.
>
>So what about the genset?
>Theres a huge store of air and water cooled motorcycle
>engines in all configurations. There are giant model
>airplane engines, though they tend to very high rpms and
>not so much torque, there are even tiny gas turbines,
>though they are very expensive and short-lived. there are
>industrial engines of all types, they tend toward extreme
>weight, the marine world has a lot of interesting gensets,
>and sailboats do care about weight.
>But I only need say 5kw to 15kw, so a single-cylinder air
>cooled motor sounds about right.
I'd go for a new Cal Emissions rated motors like the
Robin/Subaru 9hp I'm using in our gen will give you about
5kw. Run on NG, propane it would be even cleaner and I'm
sure they make them stock.
To tune them, set the ign to what you need at full
power as your shunt gen can get it straight to operating
RPM. The Robin's don't need that because they have ign
advance. Then get a 3 gas emissions meter and set fuel,
timing for lowest emissions.
One thing you might want to do is increase the
compression ratio to take advantage of NG, propane or
ethanol fuels higher octane, raise eff. Many times replacing
the head gasket with Form-a-gasket will raise it enough
though one needs to be sure of cam, valve drive can handle
the distance change. Again the Robin has the highest
compression ratio in a small engine stock.
Don't let David scare you into not doing a good
generator, he still lives where all industural engines are
flat heads. He can't seem to understand that you don't have
to be a engineer/corporation to lower emissions greatly or
that they have improved greatly in the last couple yrs. You
can even get a cat for them now.
>
>You can get a 5kw propane fired genset for about $1000, and
>it looks like that might be easily converted to H2 later,
>when the storage and supply gets cheaper/available. An H2
>genset would be perfect, assuming that its not feasible to
>go all the way to an H2 ICE.
A regular genset won't charge well because of power
factor, PF which will cause it to burn up and get little
power out. Best is to use a DC gen like a shunt, PM or
3ph AC rectified on your own motor.
>
>I could buy a cheap gas genset and modify the motor,
>eventually replacing it. I am pretty confident that I can
>get the emissions within bounds because its a small
>displacement motor running at a constant speed. I might
>have to put a decent carb on it, but thats easy.
Mukini's when tuned right are very good!!
>
>I could build a genset from scratch - violates my rules.
Assembling would be a better word for it as all you
need is to mount the gen face to face with the motor, simple
alum plate, some bolts, a lovejoy coupler and your about
done!! And it will both work, have low emissions and last,
something a stock genset won't do when charging batts.
Jerry Dycus
>
>I could find the Perfect Thing ready-made. I did find a 6.9
>litre V8 H2 genset, but thats a bit big for me ;>) It
>would look good in a T-bucket roadster though.
>
>########
>
>Frank: theres quite a supply of late model MC in junkyards
>and auctions, because the insurers raised the rates to the
>point where they just write them off when they crash.
>Mostly the motors are too big though, so I am more likely
>to get a dirt bike motor. It does require an e-start, which
>might force me to scooters instead. My DRZ dirt bike is
>e-start, but e-start is still not common.
>
>whew... thats a lotta blah blah blah
>
>
>cheers
>
>John
>
>
>
>Frank John wrote:
>> The newer motorcycles typically use catalytic converters
>so emission standards for bikes have progressed. The issue
>with this approach would probably be cost/availability.
>I'd agree with the suggestions to either stick with an ICE
>>or go pure EV using the money for better batteries/BMS.
>> --
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Becareful here. Towing a vehicle on all four tires can
cause you to blow up the electric motor because
the RPM is too fast for it while towing. You want to
be sure to disconnect the motor from any drive wheel
so you don't over rev the motor going down the
freeway.
I believe something like that happen recently on an EV
vehicle towed by a tow truck. Don't remember who. But
I remember the loss. I don't recall if it was out of
gear and fell into gear going down the road or it was
in a lower gear and just got wiped out because it was
spun too fast either way. Doubt a direct drive would
have that issue but a transmission is a muiltplier
when driven by the wheels.
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's why I prefer flat-tow or dolly-tow: most of
> the weight
> and steering/follow-capability is intact when using
> either a
> dolly or flat-tow, as the towed vehicle has all its
> wheels
> on the ground and shocks, springs, etc hold it to
> the road
> as it normally does, only the way it is accelerated
> has
> changed.
> As long as you are not towing a 4WD, there is no
> reason to
> use a trailer, unless you already have a trailer but
> no
> dolly or tow hook, OR the towed vehicle can't sit on
> its own
> wheels, or it is better not to tow it at Freeway
> speeds
> (for example a golf cart).
>
> Yes, I know - mounting a tow hookup on the towed
> vehicle
> could mean some mods: I have now two small holes in
> my EV's
> front bumper. But I can tow it anywhere I want by
> only
> borrowing someone's vehicle with hitch...
>
> YMMV,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life:
>
www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Perry
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
>
> 60% because when you hit a bump the weight will
> shift slightly.
>
> One other consideration... don't exceed the rating
> of your hitch and check
> the mounting. Trucks will often have frame mounted
> hitches, spaced fairly
> well across the frame, while a car will often mount
> to the unibody. In these
> cases, it's sometimes found that the hitch is strong
> enough, but not mounted
> into enough "meat" on the car body.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
>
>
> > Why the 60/40 ratio. I've always just used a
> little tounge weight. Is it
> > because of the weight shift on hills? Lawrence
> Rhodes....
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geez David your post is a bit harsh innit? I am sure you mean well, but ....
Lets stick to science shall we?
How about if I promise to post up a picture of the emission certificate,
huh? Thats a fair measure.
I already stated, more than once, that I have an in-house inspector on
the job. ( wife is California air district employee )
Look, as long as it pollutes less than my car, its good. If its not much
better then thats one lesson, if it is much better thats another.
If we really want to be green, we'll ride bicycles. Your EV is dumping
some amount of greenhouse gases and smog back at the power plant. I
agree its better there than your tailpipe, but even with our DIY
solutions we are still using and abusing the world's energy resources.
I offered to keep the ICEy stuff off the list. I really don't mind and I
appreciate having a moderated list. Evidently I shouldn't have responded
to the challenges and questions. So I'll stick to electrical questions
from now on. Lets kill off the genset thread. I appreciate the help with
the electrical issues.
cheers
John
David Roden wrote:
....
I must ask, from where does this confidence come? Have you a degree in
mechanical engineering with years of experience in engine design?
What do you mean by "within bounds"? Meeting federal tier 1 specs? ULEV?
SULEV? Just squeaking by your state's emission check?
Using an engine like that, you're unlikely to come even within spitting
distance of a 15 year old, indifferently maintained ICEV.
I'm not saying "don't build it." It could be a very interesting exercise.
But don't delude yourself about its greenness. And for goodness sake don't
mislead others about its greenness. Showing something what you describe at
an Earth Day observance would be hypocritical, IMO.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV Experts,
I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a donor.
What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
Jean-Michel
Vanocuver, BC
.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËbMessage-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:35:09 -0800
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The point is that if you stay below the speed that the car can be driven at
under its own power, you should be fine towing it in the same setup (gear,
etc!), with the exception being an automatic or CVT transmission, depending
on how it's executed.
Here also holds that when the donor vehicle is listed as allowing 4-down
towing, the transmission should allow it still after the conversion, the
only concern is the motor RPMs.
Note: vehicles with transfer cases and 4WD are usually not towable and need
to be flat-bedded/trailered.
There are three simple checks to make sure you are OK:
- is it direct drive? Yes, then stay under max speed the car can drive
itself at.
- is it automatic or CVT? Don't try towing 4-down unless the car is listed
as towable 4-down.
- is it manual transmission? Put it in Neutral or in highest gear (4 or 5)
and you are fine.
Some vehicles have a transmission cooling setup. If this is the case then
you may want to check
that it is operational when towing, though I think it mainly appears on
automatic transmissions and
those are typically not towable 4-down anyway.
In case of doubt: place the driven wheels on a tow dolly and you are fine.
(Yes, I did tow a BMW backwards with the rear end on a tow dolly)
Be safe,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 4:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
Becareful here. Towing a vehicle on all four tires can cause you to blow up
the electric motor because the RPM is too fast for it while towing. You want
to be sure to disconnect the motor from any drive wheel so you don't over
rev the motor going down the freeway.
I believe something like that happen recently on an EV vehicle towed by a
tow truck. Don't remember who. But I remember the loss. I don't recall if
it was out of gear and fell into gear going down the road or it was in a
lower gear and just got wiped out because it was spun too fast either way.
Doubt a direct drive would have that issue but a transmission is a
muiltplier when driven by the wheels.
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's why I prefer flat-tow or dolly-tow: most of the weight and
> steering/follow-capability is intact when using either a dolly or
> flat-tow, as the towed vehicle has all its wheels on the ground and
> shocks, springs, etc hold it to the road as it normally does, only the
> way it is accelerated has changed.
> As long as you are not towing a 4WD, there is no reason to use a
> trailer, unless you already have a trailer but no dolly or tow hook,
> OR the towed vehicle can't sit on its own wheels, or it is better not
> to tow it at Freeway speeds (for example a golf cart).
>
> Yes, I know - mounting a tow hookup on the towed vehicle could mean
> some mods: I have now two small holes in my EV's front bumper. But I
> can tow it anywhere I want by only borrowing someone's vehicle with
> hitch...
>
> YMMV,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life:
>
www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Perry
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
>
> 60% because when you hit a bump the weight will shift slightly.
>
> One other consideration... don't exceed the rating of your hitch and
> check the mounting. Trucks will often have frame mounted hitches,
> spaced fairly well across the frame, while a car will often mount to
> the unibody. In these cases, it's sometimes found that the hitch is
> strong enough, but not mounted into enough "meat" on the car body.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Horrifying trailer towing experience
>
>
> > Why the 60/40 ratio. I've always just used a
> little tounge weight. Is it
> > because of the weight shift on hills? Lawrence
> Rhodes....
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:49:59 -0800
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Converting a mini classic
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Hello Jean-Michel and All,
Jean-Michel Mistrot wrote:
> What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
> It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
> Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
>
One of my favorite cars! I think it would be great.
See Ya....John Wayland
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: gensets was charging while driving question
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:58:01 -0800
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Hi John,
Please don't read more in David's post than he put into it,
he asks for verifyable data where your confidence comes from
and what your goals are, as soo many people claim to be green
but have no qualm firing up their two-stroke mower and leaf
blower and belch out the same amount of pollutants every
Saturday afternoon as their highly optimized car produces in
months of driving (excluding CO2).
Also on this list we see many references to claims being made
that are misleading at best, either from ignorance or from
people who like you to believe a more convenient "truth".
So, this list may sound rather critical against claims
without data to support it, but it actually is an attempt
to separate facts from lore, so we can rely on the information
that is shared and judge each other's level of competence,
which allows us to help each other where data is lacking
and point to assumptions that need to be verified.
If your background or your equipment allows you to measure
the pollution from a self-created ICE setup, then that is
important information and we'd like to hear your datapoints.
If it is just that you have read about spark plugs and
carburetors that you have convinced yourself that you can
make a Hybrid that is clean, then you may find a less
receptive audience.
Not that it can't be done, but it is unlikely that you
get good results unless you start with an already clean
engine with designed-on emissions control.
You also indicated that you want to demonstrate the
vehicle. If you demo the EV and then say that you always
need that Genset with your EV, then you are not bringing
the right message as you only re-enforce that EVs are
not capable of meeting your driving needs.
If you have a well-executed and truly clean-burning
genset for occasional range extension when you bring
your EV to a show and either you don't display it or
you present it when people ask: what if you suddenly
need to go on a roadtrip? Then you are bringing the
message that EVs are sufficient for 90% or more of
your driving needs and there are solutions for the
remaining 10% which can still be relatively green.
I don't make a Hybrid out of my EV, I bought a
second-hand Prius for the long trips that I occasionally
make. I look forward to the time of serial Hybrids
like the GM Volt (or comparable setups from the
competition, awakened by GM) because that will give
40+ miles of EV driving - plenty for about 90% of
all driving, and the petrol/ethanol engine will
only need to come on in a minority of the trips,
which will make essentially all but a few trips
totally electric-powered.
Bring it on!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Fisher
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 5:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: gensets was charging while driving question
Geez David your post is a bit harsh innit? I am sure you mean well, but ....
Lets stick to science shall we?
How about if I promise to post up a picture of the emission certificate,
huh? Thats a fair measure.
I already stated, more than once, that I have an in-house inspector on the
job. ( wife is California air district employee )
Look, as long as it pollutes less than my car, its good. If its not much
better then thats one lesson, if it is much better thats another.
If we really want to be green, we'll ride bicycles. Your EV is dumping some
amount of greenhouse gases and smog back at the power plant. I agree its
better there than your tailpipe, but even with our DIY solutions we are
still using and abusing the world's energy resources.
I offered to keep the ICEy stuff off the list. I really don't mind and I
appreciate having a moderated list. Evidently I shouldn't have responded to
the challenges and questions. So I'll stick to electrical questions from now
on. Lets kill off the genset thread. I appreciate the help with the
electrical issues.
cheers
John
David Roden wrote:
> ....
> I must ask, from where does this confidence come? Have you a degree
> in mechanical engineering with years of experience in engine design?
>
> What do you mean by "within bounds"? Meeting federal tier 1 specs? ULEV?
> SULEV? Just squeaking by your state's emission check?
>
> Using an engine like that, you're unlikely to come even within
> spitting distance of a 15 year old, indifferently maintained ICEV.
>
> I'm not saying "don't build it." It could be a very interesting exercise.
> But don't delude yourself about its greenness. And for goodness sake
> don't mislead others about its greenness. Showing something what you
> describe at an Earth Day observance would be hypocritical, IMO.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Converting a mini classic
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:01:41 -0800
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That is a fun and light vehicle.
Hard to get a long range (not enough room for batteries)
but totally in EV-style "less is more".
One friend really likes this car and has contemplated
converting one, even though he is about 6'4" and 300#
Remember the movie where the huge black guy ripped the
driver seat out and drove while sitting on the rear bench?
Have fun,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jean-Michel Mistrot
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 5:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Converting a mini classic
EV Experts,
I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a donor.
What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
Jean-Michel
Vanocuver, BC
.
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From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Converting a mini classic
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:59:35 -0800
To: [email protected]
On Mar 24, 2007, at 4:51 PM, Jean-Michel Mistrot wrote:
> I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
> So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a donor.
> What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
> It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
> Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
The *real* Mini? They are adorable little cars. The only warning I have
is that the motor and gearbox share oil. That will present a little
extra challenge when deICEing it, but that road has been crossed before
so I know its quite possible. It sounds like a fun project.
Paul "neon" G.
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:10:22 -0500
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Subject: Re: gensets was charging while driving question
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On 24 Mar 2007 at 17:09, John Fisher wrote:
> Look, as long as it pollutes less than my car, its good.
I agree. Perhaps I'm too skeptical.
Show me the numbers. I won't ask you to hit anything as stratospheric as
the Prius's PZEV-SULEV. If you can match CA ULEV at all speeds, which the
49-state Honda Civic VX met 12 years ago, I'll extend my hearty
congratulations (for what that's worth ;-).
Heck, I'll give you a virtual pat on the back if you can make Federal Tier 1
passenger car standards (required of 49-state cars from MY1994 to MY1997).
Here's the definition :
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld.php#stds
THC = 0.41 g/mi
NMHC = 0.25 g/mi
CO = 3.4 g/mi
NOx = 0.4 g/mi
PM = 0.08 g/mi
THC = total hydrocarbons
NMHC = nonmethane hydrocarbons
CO = carbon monoxide
NOx = oxides of nitrogen
PM = particulate matter
Please document your testing methods as equivalent to FTP75 and verify your
compliance.
BTW, Jerry, same goes for you. A public tip o' the hat from me if you can
demonstrate Tier 1 compliance with your Freedom's genset running, and a
hearty congratulations if you make CA ULEV. (Sorry, I'm too cheap to
present medals or prizes. ;-)
> I offered to keep the ICEy stuff off the list ...I'll stick to electrical
> questions from now on. Lets kill off the genset thread.
Uh-uh, you can't duck out that easily.
This list IS jam-packed with skeptics - that's one of its greatest
strengths! We'll make you think HARD and hone your ideas. Don't wimp out
just because a few of us challenged you.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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From: Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:17:48 +1200
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Subject: Re: Converting a mini classic
On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 18:59 -0800, Paul G. wrote:
> The *real* Mini? They are adorable little cars. The only warning I have
> is that the motor and gearbox share oil. That will present a little
> extra challenge when deICEing it, but that road has been crossed before
> so I know its quite possible. It sounds like a fun project.
My first solution to this problem was to use another gearbox. This
presents a more difficult issue, the mini motor sits on top of the
gearbox, and an electric motor inline with a conventional gearbox just
won't fit. See http://carrott.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/BodyMods for a
more complete discussion.
I've decided to place the electric motor on top of the original gearbox,
have a new mainshaft made and drive that with a belt. Richard Bebbington
has already done this, although he used an automatic gearbox and I plan
to use a manual.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/motor/motor_and_box.html
From: Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:00:35 +1200
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Subject: Re: Converting a mini classic
On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 17:51 -0700, Jean-Michel Mistrot wrote:
> I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
So am I!
> So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a donor.
> What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
> It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
> Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
I am in the planning stages for converting one. Have a look at
http://carrott.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view/Main/WebHome for my progress.
There is a conversion of a Mini Pickup in england
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/254
Finding batteries in New Zealand that don't cost an arm and a leg is my
current problem. I'm tempted by lithium, as fitting enough lead
batteries into the car will be difficult.
--- End Message ---
