EV Digest 6604
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Cheap EV Alternatives
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombi
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Amazing New Energy Source!
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cheap EV Alternatives
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: gensets was charging while driving question
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re:Hybrid Question OT
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Cheap EV Alternatives
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hybrid question
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Squirreling through the boneyard
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hybrid question
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Cheap EV Alternatives
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Hybrid question - OT
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Grounding the car, was Quick PFC20 question
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Hybrid question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Cheap EV Alternatives
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hybrid question - OT
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Chevy Volt in Design News Magazine
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Cheap EV Alternatives
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info. I never thought of forklifts and stuff. I was
hoping to get some parts, even used, so that I could make my learning
curve less expensive. I'm a college student with big hopes but maybe I
should be concentrating on my degree :). Anyway, I enjoy researching and
all. I found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Power-System-Complete-w-Drive-Motor-SCR-Control_W
0QQitemZ160099077568QQcategoryZ109507QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
em
I thought this might be a good start. Again a big string of batteries is
kinda price restricted so but I can always upgrade as I go. Is this
kinda what I should be keeping an eye out for? Maybe in the 72v or
higher range? And is a 10hp motor enough to power an early datsun z,
4-speed, they are pretty light cars. Thanks for your help.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good news! We can buy a digital version of the May issue of Car and
Driver for $4
http://www.zinio.com/issue?is=201326969
I just bought it.
Looky here....
"Can I share my digital magazines with friends and colleagues, like I
do with the print version?"
"Absolutely. Zinio Reader has a "Send to Friend" feature that lets you
invite friends or colleagues to download their own free copy of your
magazines."
https://www.neodata.com/hfmus/cdri/digital_faq.shtml
Crystal clear on my monitor. It looks better then print!
This is just a sample of it. It looks better then this, the jpg
format tweaked it:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3614/zombiehc5.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20070325/cx_nq_uc/nq20070325
Gives new meaning to "snowmobile"
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on how fast you want to go.
----- Original Message -----
From: "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: Cheap EV Alternatives
Maybe in the 72v or
higher range? And is a 10hp motor enough to power an early datsun z,
4-speed, they are pretty light cars. Thanks for your help.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I get that, really, I do -- the big three have well-earned the suspicion
they receive from the EV community.
The trick is to balance this suspicion with hope, and I'm not sure how
well we do this.
If our hobby so thoroughly expects failure, we risk promoting failure,
and making it too easy for the big three to deliver that failure.
Consider that there are engineers and managers within the big automakers
who really do believe in EVs and Hybrids -- how demotivating must it be
for them to read everywhere about anticipated failure.
It is odd to see 'Evangelism' couched in such pessimism, and I worry
that it discourages risk-taking and experimentation by manufacturers and
individuals.
Randii
-----Original Message-----
I don't think many here will see the Volt as bad.
Personally I think it is the best I could hope for from
the US car makers.
The "bad" is that their credibility is so low that
hardly anybody believes that they are actually working on
it to make it a product, that is why they need to go to
such extreme length as to be transparent as never before,
just to convince people that this one is for real.
Funny, isn't it - how an image problem can stick.
Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We own a Prius, a midsize car with plenty of room for passengers and
tall people. The car has plenty of power to keep up with traffic and is
a comfortable ride.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:46 AM 3/27/2007, you wrote:
Hey,
Is there any alternative to an expensive new setup. In other words, if I
just wanted to get something to work, and since its my first go at it,
didn't want to pile a ton of money into it, are there any motors or
parts that I can experiment with? Maybe a used system or parts
interchange? But something with still enough power to get down the road.
This would be for an early Datsun Z. How about an industrial ac motor?
Can I use a bunch of 12v batteries with low Ah's to get the higher
current, even if I loose a lot of range?
Thanks
Paul
DON'T get crummy parts just to save money. This includes forklift
motors and aircraft starter/generators. The lowest cost way to get
started with GOOD parts is to look for a used EV being sold as a
"parts car" and then transplant the drive system.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From http://tinyurl.com/2doxys
"For what it's worth, a dead battery pack would equal a dead Highlander
Hybrid. In comparison, the owner of a Honda hybrid could continue to drive
even if the battery pack died - though with diminished power."
The Honda system is less complex than Toyota. The battery packs are lasting
100K to 200K miles before you need to replace them. There is the occasional
premature failure but the packs are warrentied to 80K.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
If the prius pack dies why are you 'dead in the water' as compared to the
other ones? And how likely is it that the battery will die on you?
From: "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:45:28 -0700
I have a Civic and it was a tough descision, but here are the +/- of both
of them.
Prius
Hatchback is so useful.
Looks like puke on wheels.
Centralized instrument cluster takes getting used to.
Bluetooth integration.
It is more expensive and there was a waiting list.
If the battery pack goes out you are dead in the water.
Only has an automatic transmission.
It is a Toyota.
Civic
Looks like a real car
Instruments are where they are supposed to be.
No learning curve.
If the battery pack dies, it still drives.
Back seat does not fold down.
Smaller size (wheelbase) is better for parking downtown.
Manual transmission so you can have better contol over RPMs and economy.
Price was better.
It is a Honda.
Four years since I bought the Civic and no complaints. There was a rattle
in the A pillar but they fixed it. I only use it to drive up the hill to
the dog park and back, up to 24% grade for 5 miles, and I average 38 mpg.
I drove to Salt Lake City from San Francisco and averaged 55 mpg.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
I haven't seen the Altima but my parents have two ICE Altimas and they
are nicely built nice looking and roomier than the Prius or civic. But if
you look at fuel economy, you are certainly paying for the added pickup.
Best all-around for both performance and fuel economy looks like the
Civic based on the numbers I could gather. Granted, the numbers came from
various sources I could whip up quickly but cant be too far off to tell
the story. Most of the numbers below are from Car and Driver...
2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid
Curb weight: 3564 lb.
Zero to 60 mph: 7.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 20.7 sec
Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 36/42 mpg.
2004-2007 Toyota Prius Hybrid
Curb Weight 2932 lb.
Zero to 60 mph: 12.7 sec.
Zero to 100 mph: 39.6 sec.
Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 60/51 mpg.
2007 Honda Civic Hybrid
Curb Weight 2875 lbs.
Zero to 60 mph: 7.99
Zero to 100 mph: N/A (0-90 in 18.17 secs)
Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 48/47 mpg.
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
I know two Prius owners and both are very happy and routinely get over
50 mpg. If I recall the Pris is a little larger and gets better mileage
than the civic.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Hybrid question
Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:04 pm
Size: 506 bytes
To: [email protected]
Hi all one of my friends is planning on buying a hybrid and he seems to
be
stuck between three choices.
The nissan altima hybrid
The toyota prius
and the honda civic hybrid
He just like anyone else wants a vehicle that has enough power to keep
up
with traffic and gets good gas mileage and it must be a comfortable
ride. I
was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts?
_________________________________________________________________
http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!399
_________________________________________________________________
http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!420
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Quick PFC20 question
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:41:25 -0500
Joe wrote:
Yes.
Grounding the chassis prevents a shock hazard my making sure the chassis
is
connected to safety ground.
I know we've been over this before, but it just seems to me that the
charger would be "isolated" if it was only connected to the HV pack
and not to the vehicle. Why involve the chassis in the charge circuit
like that? I don't see any benefit to it.
The PFC20 is not an isolated charger. One side of the pack is connected
directly to one side of the AC line. The rational behind grounding the
car body is that a fault ( for example, a connection between the pack and
the car body) would not result in a dangerous situation - where, standing on
the ground and touching the car body could shock you.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglinemarch07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil wrote:
The PFC20 is not an isolated charger. One side of the pack is connected
directly to one side of the AC line. The rational behind grounding the
car body is that a fault ( for example, a connection between the pack and
the car body) would not result in a dangerous situation - where, standing on
the ground and touching the car body could shock you.
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not getting this.
Let's use a microwave oven as an example.
As it is now, it's plugged into the wall using a 3 prong connector.
If the item has an internal short, the "equipment ground"(3rd prong)
deals with it.
Now let's hook the microwave up as you and Joe suggest. Let's wire
the microwave up to the entire kitchen for the ground. This way if
I'm over using the sink or the refrigerator and the microwave has an
internal short, will I maybe be affected or involved in it?
That is how I see the charger as being. Connected to the battery pack
and plugged into the wall outlet. Why tie the car into this system?
Roland's car is not wired up like that. How is the White Zombie wired
up?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Damon, all
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I haven't spoke much about it yet, but I have a new
> EV project in hand.
> With my son turning 16 in two weeks, we decided to
> take on a little
> father/son EV adventure. I am now the proud owner
> of of a fairly straight
> 1970 Datsun pickup, and the plan is to convert it
> this summer so the boy has
> something cool to drive to school next year.
I thought this was cool, what a great project to start
a teen driving in.
> You may recall Jim Husted gave me a hard time (is
> there anyone he hasn't yet) after a couple of >
his "Baby's" were sold and I mentioned that they >
may be a little overpriced for anyone who was not
> planning on racing with them.
I recall it very well thank you 8^P By the way Damons
shop name is now Buck and a quarter so it makes his
sons name 2 bits 8^o
Btw You ain't seen a hard time yet 8^)
> Jim tried to mock me by claiming that he was going
> to paint my name on one
> of his cores and come into the shop each morning and
> cuddle it and talk to
> it until I made a trip there and rebuilt it myself
> just so I had some perspective on the work he does.
Mock you? I mearly wanted to know what you'd have
wanted had a mile in my shoe been walked 8^)
What Damon doesn't know is we're putting this up at
ebay to see what it goes for, and or, what he's
wanting, LMAO.
> What you don't know, and what I think might have
> surprised Jim, was that I
> immediately shot him back a private email that I
> would love to come work
> with him for a day or two, but I was thinking of
> doing a small truck for my
> son, and would he mind if we both came and got our
> hands dirty. Of course,
> I didn't want some little dinky play thing motor, I
> wanted something big
> enough to push a light weight EV around.
Well I do admit I thought you were Darin Gilbert or
someone far away, LMAO! Guess that's what I get for
being a smarty pants. Anyway like Buck1/4 says he
called my bluff and went all-in. Being he'd thrown
his son into the pot and added a pocket bike in trade
I coudn't say no 8^) Now if I'd a had a spine I'd
have told him to get off my leg I was just joking8^o
but I'm a sucker for this kind of thing 8^) Besides I
got a pretty good hand with a win, win, win outcome.
I got a new toy, the kid (sorry forget his name, very
brain dead from drive) gets a cool EV, Dad gets a
bonding / learning outing and hopefully you all get a
good read on how this all pans out. Although I'm
gonna help these guys they are doing the work 8^)
> Since then Jim and I have been making arraingements,
> and today is the day
> that we met up at the Forklift boneyard to look
> through motor cores.
> I don't know how much cofee Jim starts his day off
> with, but he reminded me
> of a squirrel looking for nuts. He was all over the
> place. He went over,
> he went under, he squeezed through, he climbed up,
> he hefted, he pushed, he
> pulled and...
They moved stuff since I was last there! I didn't
know he'd put the create I was looking for on the
third rack, LMAO! I knew he had some clean ADC's but
I couldn't find the dang things. I found a nice 71/2"
48 volt Hyster/Yale that was really cherry but he
wanted 450 (down from the 750.00 listed on net as a
lift motor). I told him "bag that" and hauled that
one back, that's when he pointed to the create up on
the top rack. I shimmied up and had a look and they
were what I was looking for 8^)
> finally he found just the right cores,
> one for me and one for
> him. The ones we ended up with were up on the third
> rack, and the guy at
> the shop told Jim with a quiver in his voice, "We
> can get a lift truck in
> there" as he was afraid Jim would try climbing down
> with one tucked under
> his arm.
There were two dead lifts blocking the rack so we had
to tow one out of the way. Rather than try to move
the second one (no way the guy was gonna get it down
without the other lift moved) I just put the forks
together, went back up and threw them on the forks.
Saved at least a 1/2 hour, the more time we take the
higher the next price is kinda thing. Besides I can't
tell you how many times I've had to do that in 25
years 8^) At 45 I can still shoot up a rack pretty
good though 8^P It was starting to feel like work
though. Did you feel like if I fell to my death
getting "your" core the list would come hunt you
down?? LMAO!
> It was fun though watching him weed through stuff.
> He used a flashlight to
> look inside of them, he checked out the brushes,
> turned them by hand, and
> either dismissed them as not worth the effort or set
> them aside as possible
> candidates. I knew ours were good, because he
> didn't take anytime at all on
> them. He just went straight to getting us a good
> price, and we were on our
> way.
Always happy to entertain, lol.
Well I've gotten a couple older cores from this guy
cheaper but the other older cores didn't look so great
and I wanted to find a nice one for you guys.
I'd hoped for better but we did okay concerning
there's no freight and the brushes are all but new so
additional costs there (unless you needed the leads to
bling) other than that they are just seated and look
great.
> He kept a pretty good poker face during
> negotiations, but afterwords
> he let me know that these babies are practically
> brand new. So rather than
> spending our time rebuilding them, we will be doing
> things like pressing in
> a new shaft, and adding a cooling port for forcing
> air through since they
> are on the smallish size for EV use.
It's the game, the harder you need it the higher the
price. If we'd of had more time we could have walked
and let him fester that he'd lost a sale but we
didn't. We ended up buying two at 200.00 bucks each
for those wondering.
Ya I wanted to find something really slimy but still
good 8^) I wasn't gonna pass on something because it
looks new, LMAO! You'll still get the full treatment
and you'll both work hard and go home tired and sleep
like babies I will see to that 8^P You just won't get
so dirty, hehe.
> I don't know if Jim wants me to mention this one or
> not, because for now it
> is the one that got away. Or perhaps he needs to
> ignore it on a few more
> trips so he get's a better price later, but there
> was one gem that we passed
> over as it was a bit large for what I am doing.
> Still, if you are
> considering something in the 12" range, you might
> want to contact Jim and
> see what he can do for you. There was a beauty
> still in one of the "Parts
> Lifts". I could see from the look in his eye that
> Jim fell in love with
> this one right away and would love to make it one of
> his...
Yeah the big one did spark my eye but it's a pretty
late model so he'll probably sit on that a while.
I'll play a little cat and mouse maybe I can squeek it
out of him. Let's see how much that cash helps with
his vacation he mentioned, LMAO.
Well I'm glad you didn't think me rude, I was trying
to hussle and get the job done. We'll chat when your
at the shop was my thinking. Anyway this ought to be
fun we'll get some pics to share as we do it. BTW
Kayla loves the pocketbike (Damon brought it with
him). I got some baby motors and at 12 volts she'll
have a lot of fun on it. Probably won't be long before
she wants a 6.7 and some Hawkers on it, LMAO.
Okay my brains mush.
Ohh btw the second motor is for Edaurdo, he contacted
me asking if I could get him something. If you got
your ears on Eddie boy I got you a nice motor 8^)
Not EVerything one could hope for but from your
discriptions this is probably gonna rock your world
Heck it might EVen make you look like Wayland himself
down there 8^)
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
PS: Stay out of my accorn pile motor boy, LMAO!
I think he saw you and doubled my price, had nothing
to do with the later model, LMAO!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True enough. They could do much the same thing (tiny engine) w/ suping up
the engine... but found an electric boost was more reliable. Eunick did it
back in the early 70s, as I recall, running a small engine hotter & w/ a
turbo. Some cars try similar by cutting out cylinders. Hybrids don't have as
many HP, but their motor makes up the difference in acceleration.
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I have a Classic Prius (the one with 'only' 12.8 sec 0-60)
> and rarely put the pedal to the metal.
> Someone who knows me well sat in the backseat (4 adults in the car)
> when I turned onto the freeway, so he was expecting a s-l-o-w
> acceleration to somewhere below speed limit and was positively
> surprised when the Prius shot away and passed the limit
> effortlessly in the carpool lane.
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:05 PM 27/03/07 -0400, Paul wrote:
Thanks for the info. I never thought of forklifts and stuff. I was
hoping to get some parts, even used, so that I could make my learning
curve less expensive. I'm a college student with big hopes but maybe I
should be concentrating on my degree :). Anyway, I enjoy researching and
all. I found this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Power-System-Complete-w-Drive-Motor-SCR-Control_W
0QQitemZ160099077568QQcategoryZ109507QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
em
I thought this might be a good start. Again a big string of batteries is
kinda price restricted so but I can always upgrade as I go. Is this
kinda what I should be keeping an eye out for? Maybe in the 72v or
higher range? And is a 10hp motor enough to power an early datsun z,
4-speed, they are pretty light cars. Thanks for your help.
G'day Paul, All
That motor may be OK for a lower-power conversion (Jim?) but the rest of
the bits and pieces are probably a bit too light. The controller is 48V at
250 amps which implies that the contactors are in the same sort of power
handling range. I'd be looking for something bigger. This system is limited
to 250A x 48V = 12kW maximum. A more typical lower-power system is for a
400A 120V, 48kW max.
If the motor can handle the power, it would be possible to series connect
the contactors for 96 volts, but you still only have a 48V controller.
There are ways around that, too, but since it is only 250A you'd probablt
be wasting your time. I'd look for a bigger system.
As for 10hp, ratings of motors are a "flying" data-point, 10hp continuous
is 50hp peak for "normal" people and about 200hp for mad-bad racers.
For lower power control "on the cheap" you probably want to look at either
a contactor controller or a rectactor controller, which will let you run a
system up to about 96V using golf-cart type contactors, get the vehicle
going and look at upgrade things later.
It is easy to buy a forklift motor that is *not* suitable, but there are
lots that are, and there is nothing about a typical "EV" motor that is
fundamentally different to many forklift motors. The main difference is
that forklift motors are designed for low RPM, high torque, so have
stronger fields than on-road EV motors that are desiged for lower torque
higher RPMs. If you are at a university there should be resources available
(mechanical engineering departments) there to make some changes to a motor
to modify the speed/torque behaviour.
Paul, what country/state are you in? there may be EVers locally to you that
can help.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, I want to thank you so very much for sharing this information. I
already sent a copy to JW, FT and Otmar as well as friends in Croatia. I was
blown away that the article got mentioned on the cover as well as a nice
shot of White Zombie doing a burnout on page 10 which is the index to
Features as well as Up Front and Columns sections. Massively great press for
the movement! There is a photo of Father Time taking off on his drag
motorcycle with his white beard flowing out from under his helmet. Also a
picture of Otmar's car launching as well as a couple local Oregon cars. One
of the things I like best is a little inset above a picture of cars charging
at the Wayland Juice Bar. It says: "Powered by American Electrons" all on
the traditional red, white, and blue flag background. Yeh, sorry for the off
topic political post. If anyone wants a copy I will be happy to share one.
Send me your email off line.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: May C&D Article on White Zombi
Good news! We can buy a digital version of the May issue of Car and
Driver for $4
http://www.zinio.com/issue?is=201326969
I just bought it.
Looky here....
"Can I share my digital magazines with friends and colleagues, like I
do with the print version?"
"Absolutely. Zinio Reader has a "Send to Friend" feature that lets you
invite friends or colleagues to download their own free copy of your
magazines."
https://www.neodata.com/hfmus/cdri/digital_faq.shtml
Crystal clear on my monitor. It looks better then print!
This is just a sample of it. It looks better then this, the jpg
format tweaked it:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3614/zombiehc5.jpg
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.18/734 - Release Date: 3/26/2007
2:31 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
Trying to answer your original question:
The Prius (and other cars with the Toyota system) have no starter motor.
The engine is started by the combination of the two propulsion motors,
applying torque through the torque converter onto the wheels and engine.
So, without HV battery the engine can't start, so you can't move about.
The battery only needs to have a tiny capacity left to start the engine,
once the engine runs it will provide power to recharge the battery and
power the two motors (this is part of the torque conversion - electric
energy is in the chain to add torque....
It surprises me that the Honda Hybrid still has a starter motor.
This certainly is not an advantage, but an additional wear item
and when the auxiliary battery dies, you are dead in the water....
(Or do they mean that the Honda can be push-started? I'd rather not
do that with a modern emissions-controlled car, if you want to
maintain emissions control.)
Anyway, these differences are mainly arbitrary and theoretical as
there have been very few Prius that had a battery pack failure to the
point that they died. For those that did occur it is often a
diminished capacity, which makes them less efficient and if the
owner catches it in time, will be replaced under warranty.
Second hand packs run around $500 so it is not a problem to
fix this if after a long useful life the pack dies when the
car is out of the mandatory drivetrain and emissions warranty.
There have been Prius taxis that were bought back by Toyota
after putting 250,000 miles on the ODO.
Mine is now nearing 40,000 after 5 years.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Allgood
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
>From http://tinyurl.com/2doxys
"For what it's worth, a dead battery pack would equal a dead Highlander
Hybrid. In comparison, the owner of a Honda hybrid could continue to drive
even if the battery pack died - though with diminished power."
The Honda system is less complex than Toyota. The battery packs are lasting
100K to 200K miles before you need to replace them. There is the occasional
premature failure but the packs are warrentied to 80K.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid question
> If the prius pack dies why are you 'dead in the water' as compared to the
> other ones? And how likely is it that the battery will die on you?
>
>
>>From: "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: Hybrid question
>>Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:45:28 -0700
>>
>>I have a Civic and it was a tough descision, but here are the +/- of both
>>of them.
>>
>>Prius
>>Hatchback is so useful.
>>Looks like puke on wheels.
>>Centralized instrument cluster takes getting used to.
>>Bluetooth integration.
>>It is more expensive and there was a waiting list.
>>If the battery pack goes out you are dead in the water.
>>Only has an automatic transmission.
>>It is a Toyota.
>>
>>Civic
>>Looks like a real car
>>Instruments are where they are supposed to be.
>>No learning curve.
>>If the battery pack dies, it still drives.
>>Back seat does not fold down.
>>Smaller size (wheelbase) is better for parking downtown.
>>Manual transmission so you can have better contol over RPMs and economy.
>>Price was better.
>>It is a Honda.
>>
>>Four years since I bought the Civic and no complaints. There was a rattle
>>in the A pillar but they fixed it. I only use it to drive up the hill to
>>the dog park and back, up to 24% grade for 5 miles, and I average 38 mpg.
>>I drove to Salt Lake City from San Francisco and averaged 55 mpg.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 8:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: Hybrid question
>>
>>
>>>I haven't seen the Altima but my parents have two ICE Altimas and they
>>>are nicely built nice looking and roomier than the Prius or civic. But if
>>>you look at fuel economy, you are certainly paying for the added pickup.
>>>Best all-around for both performance and fuel economy looks like the
>>>Civic based on the numbers I could gather. Granted, the numbers came from
>>>various sources I could whip up quickly but cant be too far off to tell
>>>the story. Most of the numbers below are from Car and Driver...
>>>
>>>2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid
>>>Curb weight: 3564 lb.
>>>Zero to 60 mph: 7.4 sec
>>>Zero to 100 mph: 20.7 sec
>>>Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 36/42 mpg.
>>>
>>>2004-2007 Toyota Prius Hybrid
>>>Curb Weight 2932 lb.
>>>Zero to 60 mph: 12.7 sec.
>>>Zero to 100 mph: 39.6 sec.
>>>Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 60/51 mpg.
>>>
>>>2007 Honda Civic Hybrid
>>>Curb Weight 2875 lbs.
>>>Zero to 60 mph: 7.99
>>>Zero to 100 mph: N/A (0-90 in 18.17 secs)
>>>Fuel Economy (city/hwy): 48/47 mpg.
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 10:24 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Hybrid question
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know two Prius owners and both are very happy and routinely get over
>>>>50 mpg. If I recall the Pris is a little larger and gets better mileage
>>>>than the civic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>via Treo
>>>>David Hrivnak
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>Subj: Hybrid question
>>>>Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:04 pm
>>>>Size: 506 bytes
>>>>To: [email protected]
>>>>
>>>>Hi all one of my friends is planning on buying a hybrid and he seems to
>>>>be
>>>>stuck between three choices.
>>>>
>>>>The nissan altima hybrid
>>>>The toyota prius
>>>>and the honda civic hybrid
>>>>
>>>>He just like anyone else wants a vehicle that has enough power to keep
>>>>up
>>>>with traffic and gets good gas mileage and it must be a comfortable
>>>>ride. I
>>>>was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!399
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!420
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
I'm going to give this a shot, as I'd like to get some clarification on
this in the areas where I'm wrong. This is my understanding:
The problem as you may understand it already, is that you don't want to
become a conduit between two objects that have an electrical potential
greater than 40-50 volts or so (less if your skin is wet). Power from
the power company is provided as a voltage fluctuating in a sine wave
above and below earth ground -- the earth is part of the circuit, in a
way. (I believe the neutral line back to the power company is often
connected to earth ground at the main breaker). You don't want to be the
conductor between "hot" and the earth.
Using your example of the microwave, it's not only the magnetron inside
the microwave that's grounded -- there wouldn't be as much point in
that. It's the metal case that's grounded, because at no point do you
want the potential of the case (the part that you can touch) varying too
much from earth potential (you could call earth potential "zero volts").
In the situation of an internal fault that shorts 120VAC from the power
company to the case of the microwave, you want the power to follow the
ground wire, preventing the case from charging up to enough voltage to
get through your skin. As long as the case of the microwave is wired to
ground, touching it won't kill you -- though all that power flowing to
ground will trip a GFCI if you have one, or may blow a breaker. This is
good. Otherwise, you're the path from the energized case to the ground.
With the car, it's the same situation. You want the metal envelope of
the car grounded. It's arguably even more important with a lead-acid
powered EV than a home appliance, as moisture from acid spray,
condensation and dirt can form a path between the pack and the car
pretty easily. If your car's body weren't grounded, it's voltage
potential, being fed by a small leakage from dirty/wet batteries, could
easily float up to a lethal level. Grounding the car prevents this from
happening.
An "isolated" charger isn't just a charger with good insulation; it
provides power that isn't *referenced* from earth ground. It isn't 120V
(or any voltage) higher/lower than earth, because it isn't in a circuit
with the earth, as mains voltage is. The isolated charger's outputs are
only referenced against each other; you couldn't kill yourself by
touching the car in one place even in bare, wet feet, but you could
still bridge two differently-energized parts of the circuit and receive
a shock. This setup requires a large, expensive, heavy transformer to
achieve.
As an aside, normally, objects around you that aren't being actively
energized by a power source tend to float at the same voltage potential
even if not physically connected to each other because the air has some
humidity which conducts electrical charges to earth ground. This happens
slowly of course, so this is only good for keeping small static charges
in check. In the winter there is less humidity, so charges bleed off
more slowly, and often even small static charges develop a voltage
potential that's enough to feel.
--chris
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 22:19 -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Phil wrote:
>
> > The PFC20 is not an isolated charger. One side of the pack is connected
> > directly to one side of the AC line. The rational behind grounding the
> > car body is that a fault ( for example, a connection between the pack and
> > the car body) would not result in a dangerous situation - where, standing on
> > the ground and touching the car body could shock you.
>
> Maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not getting this.
>
> Let's use a microwave oven as an example.
>
> As it is now, it's plugged into the wall using a 3 prong connector.
> If the item has an internal short, the "equipment ground"(3rd prong)
> deals with it.
>
> Now let's hook the microwave up as you and Joe suggest. Let's wire
> the microwave up to the entire kitchen for the ground. This way if
> I'm over using the sink or the refrigerator and the microwave has an
> internal short, will I maybe be affected or involved in it?
>
> That is how I see the charger as being. Connected to the battery pack
> and plugged into the wall outlet. Why tie the car into this system?
> Roland's car is not wired up like that. How is the White Zombie wired
> up?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder that the EVDL shouldn't be used to discuss gasoline-fueled
vehicles.
Although the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid use some electric drive
components, they derive all their motive energy from gasoline. Thus they
can't be considered true EVs. Please limit your discussion of them and try
to concentrate on their EV-ish elements.
Be especially careful not to start a flame war over them! If you want to
argue over the relative merits and demerits of these >gasoline< vehicles,
please do so in offlist, private email.
Or you may wish to join one of the many forums and Yahoo/Google groups
devoted to the single fuel quasi-hybrids, so that you can discuss them (or
argue about them ;-) more freely. These resources can be found with a
search engine.
Thanks for your cooperation.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have a friend who imports machines fom Japan, they have
systems there for warehouses that is a forklift on a track, you could get
one of those for about $1500 with a lower power 120 volt system, AC motor,
inverter, DC/DC converter, etc
Can you share more details on that ? Who is the original manufacturer
? Do you know anybody running such a setup ?
I am primarily interested in the AC motor, though already working
inverter and DC/DC would help as well.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/28/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The Prius (and other cars with the Toyota system) have no starter motor.
[..]
It surprises me that the Honda Hybrid still has a starter motor.
This certainly is not an advantage, but an additional wear item
and when the auxiliary battery dies, you are dead in the water....
The Insight normally starts using the IMA motor. It also has a small
12V starter which is activated in the case that the traction battery
is completely flat, or if there is a serious fault in the IMA system,
or if the circuit breaker is open.
I've never known it to operate on our Insight. It's nice that it's
there though. Oh, and you can push start it as well of course.
(Or do they mean that the Honda can be push-started? I'd rather not
do that with a modern emissions-controlled car, if you want to
maintain emissions control.)
Off topic, but can you explain that? I can't see why there would be a
significant difference to a normal start, provided that the 12V
battery has enough power to run the ignition and fuel injectors
normally.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, no offence intended but that doesn't sound like very sensible
advice. Cars (even fibreglass ones) aren't designed to be double
insulated. DIY battery boxes and wiring aren't usually either. If
you've got mains electricity in any appliance with "floating
metalwork" then it should be grounded - don't just rely on a GFCI
breaker, especially if it's user supplied.
Sorry to go on about it but this sounds like an accident waiting to happen.
On 3/26/07, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
no need to wire in ground.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: Quick PFC20 question
> I just got my shiny new Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger a yesterday!!
>
> I want to get this thing maintaining my Buggy batteries but I have a
> question. On the output side there is an Anderson connector and a
> unused green ground wire. Since my charger case won't be tied to the
> chassis of the buggy (seeing as how its fiberglass) should I connect
> the green wire of the output to frame ground?
>
> Thanx,
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I greatly prefer th ability to drive hundreds of miles. That is the beauty of
the Volt. You can use it as an EV or use it as an ICE. The range of an EV
will not work in so many instances for me.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: Chevy Volt in Design News Magazine
Date: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:52 pm
Size: 117 bytes
To: [email protected]
I think they should pull the ICE and install two or three of their
packs in it and see what type of range they get.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:12 AM 28/03/07 +0300, -kert wrote:
If you have a friend who imports machines fom Japan, they have
systems there for warehouses that is a forklift on a track, you could get
one of those for about $1500 with a lower power 120 volt system, AC motor,
inverter, DC/DC converter, etc
Can you share more details on that ? Who is the original manufacturer
? Do you know anybody running such a setup ?
I am primarily interested in the AC motor, though already working
inverter and DC/DC would help as well.
G'day -kert, and All
A business acquaintance who is "sort-of" interested in EVs and quite into
alternative energy (runs his own micro-hydro station, has been making
bio-diesel, etc.) imports machinery here - goes over to Japan once or twice
a year and fills a few containers with forklifts, excavators, etc.
I've done a few jobs for him on the electrical bits of some of these
machines, and in the course of conversation his interest in EVs is on the
rise. He points to one of the forklifts that I'd just put the
display/computer back into and asks "how about" regarding the control
system. 120V battery, AC drive of about 10kW, DC/DC converter (not sure how
many watts). "a bit extravigant to wreck one of those" says I. "aha, but in
Japan they have the same system on a forklift that travels on rails in big
computer controlled warehouses, no driver, no steering, at the sales they
go for about $1000 for a couple of years old".
Well I sat up and took notice! They are really a reach truck rather than a
forklift. The battery weighs about 1000kg (2200lbs) so that would be a bit
heavy, but that could be parted out and sold for RE or pallet trucks, etc.
As to manufacturer, sorry, I'll have to check. Something like Shimaden, but
IIRC one was Komatsu badged.
As to performance, quite responsive, but a bit "cruise control throttle" as
regen braking quite strongly, as you would need in a forklift. How you
would "hack" that I don't know.
Peter Perkins at www.solarvan.co.uk in the UK is using an Italian
manufacturers' similar system, so that is how they perform.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
