EV Digest 6605
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Li-Ion This and Li-Ion THAT
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Cheap EV Alternatives
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Hybrid question - OT
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: charging while driving question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Grounding the car, was Quick PFC20 question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) KillaCycle on the Dyno
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Li-Ion This and Li-Ion THAT
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Li-Ion This and Li-Ion THAT
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: KillaCycle on the Dyno
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Squirreling through the boneyard
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Phoenix motorcars featured on Kokam site (was: Electric Imp featured
in Kokam product info)
by Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/27/07, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
For sure but at 20$/cell (little margin for paying business fees) there is
not a lot of people to pay such...
Calendar life is a problem with 18650 but at 300$/Kw, now i accept 5 years
life until 1/2C :^)
Cordialement,
Philippe
What about hybrid battery packs, where you have a "front pack"
composed of, say, A123 cells to take the high amp loads while
accelerating and regen currents while braking, and then a "cheap"
pack of 18650's or even LiPos that just supply recharge current to
A123 stack.
That would be one heck of a BMS/charge management system, but in
theory you could have a very high durability pack, at somewhat
reasonable cost, because the regular liions never see high
charge/discharge currents.
Theoretically nice, but the devil, as always, is in the MOSFETS .. er, details
/kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if your budget is small think small. You can convert a bicycle for less
than $100 or a go cart for a bit more. The principles are the same and
the lessons learned are just as valid. It's a lot easier on the wallet
to replace a $30 motor than a $1300 one or even a $300 one.
If you want something a bit faster, and you have a bit more cash, then
consider a motorcycle.
all of the above can be fun projects as well as educational, and even if
you toast the whole system on a bicycle (unlikely), you'll be out less
than the cost of a circuit breaker for a full up car conversion
> Thanks for the info. I never thought of forklifts and stuff. I was
> hoping to get some parts, even used, so that I could make my learning
> curve less expensive. I'm a college student with big hopes but maybe I
> should be concentrating on my degree :). Anyway, I enjoy researching and
> all. I found this:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Power-System-Complete-w-Drive-Motor-SCR-Control_W
> 0QQitemZ160099077568QQcategoryZ109507QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
> em
>
> I thought this might be a good start. Again a big string of batteries is
> kinda price restricted so but I can always upgrade as I go. Is this
> kinda what I should be keeping an eye out for? Maybe in the 72v or
> higher range? And is a 10hp motor enough to power an early datsun z,
> 4-speed, they are pretty light cars. Thanks for your help.
>
> Paul
>
>
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Since you aren't going to be pulling any significant current through it,
you can use a relay whose contacts are rated for AC voltage, i.e. a common
120-240V AC rated relay with say a 12V dc coil.
> Mark Farver wrote:
>> Why would you need to switch this. The meter is high impedance, and
>> will not draw a significant amount of power from the pack.
> The meter will be switched between two separate packs.
>
> Bill
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
The honda system has the 12V battery and starter as a backup in case the
HV battery goes dead. It shouldn't be much of a wear item. I think honda
has done a good job elsewhere on weight management to make carring it
around all the time not so much of a liability.
I have driven an insight with a dead HV pack. A dog, Couldn't get out of
it's own way, perhaps a safety hazard. but we wern't stuck. Then it 2
city blocks the HV system had enough charge to help and it became
reasonable.
The prius uses a different type of ICE and must have the electric motor
in the circuit, the added complexity buys you the better fuel economy or
it's size.
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--- Begin Message ---
While it is possible to make biofuels from bio waste, most bio fuels
being made currently are the primary product rather than secondary. I.e.
ethanol is usually made from the corn kernals rather than the corn stalks.
at any rate, it doesn't really matter what part of the plant bio fuels are
made from. The carbon in the bio fuel exhaust came OUT of the air in the
first place and CAN'T be greater than the amount of CO2 the plant removed
from the atmosphere in the first place.
while David does have a point about most farmers using petrol fuels to
raise their crops, it is possible to run a farm on biofuels and therefor
produce carbon neutral fuels. possssibly even carbon negative given the
fact that not all of the carbon removed from the air by the growing plant
ends up in the fuel
> admitting that I haven't any expertise, I still don't get the point of
> your argument.
> Lets take the corn example.
>
> The corn waste would get plowed under or composted or sent to the
> landfill, if it weren't converted to fuel. Now it
> *might* turn into some methane in the ground, especially if the ground is
> wet, and that would be a greenhouse gas, and
> it might be eaten by the neighbor's cow and thus to methane, but mostly
> its not turned into CO2, or am I wrong about
> that? If you say that waste bio-mass is going back to CO2 passively, then
> I agree that we might as well make ethanol.
>
> But I *think* that you are adding net CO2 unless you plow up a parking lot
> to grow your bio-mass. Again, I see the point
> of bio-fuel, I am not trying to stamp it out. I might well use it myself.
>
> I don't see any difference in the timing of when the CO2 was removed.
> Again my point is the CO2 in waste bio-mass was
> already removed, before you made fuel. Is more CO2 put back into the
> atmosphere from using the fuel than composting it?
>
> Good for you on your footprint. How do you get hydro, off the grid or pour
> your own? We are not doing well in our house,
> and thats the genesis of our green car project.
> -JF
>
>
> Humphrey, Timothy H Ctr AFRL/IFEB wrote:
>> As far a being bio-neutral... Remember you need to think from a
>> planetary
>> point of view.... While it is true that burning corn releases the CO2
>> that
>> the corn has sequestered it has only been sequestered for about 6
>> months.
>>>From a planetary view that is about equivalent to a single breath. In
>>> fact
>> anything that is less than about a hundred years old is considered
>> carbon
>> neutral on a planetary scale. It's the fossil-fuels being released that
>> have
>> been kept out of the planets "life" for millions of years that are the
>> problem.
>>
>> And you asked earlier about "my" greenhouse footprint... zero-percent,
>> my
>> electricity is 50% hydro and 50% wind.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Grounding the car, was Quick PFC20 question
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:30:44 -0500
Ryan,
I'm going to give this a shot, as I'd like to get some clarification on
this in the areas where I'm wrong. This is my understanding:
The problem as you may understand it already, is that you don't want to
become a conduit between two objects that have an electrical potential
greater than 40-50 volts or so (less if your skin is wet). Power from
the power company is provided as a voltage fluctuating in a sine wave
above and below earth ground -- the earth is part of the circuit, in a
way. (I believe the neutral line back to the power company is often
connected to earth ground at the main breaker). You don't want to be the
conductor between "hot" and the earth.
Using your example of the microwave, it's not only the magnetron inside
the microwave that's grounded -- there wouldn't be as much point in
that. It's the metal case that's grounded, because at no point do you
want the potential of the case (the part that you can touch) varying too
much from earth potential (you could call earth potential "zero volts").
In the situation of an internal fault that shorts 120VAC from the power
company to the case of the microwave, you want the power to follow the
ground wire, preventing the case from charging up to enough voltage to
get through your skin. As long as the case of the microwave is wired to
ground, touching it won't kill you -- though all that power flowing to
ground will trip a GFCI if you have one, or may blow a breaker. This is
good. Otherwise, you're the path from the energized case to the ground.
With the car, it's the same situation. You want the metal envelope of
the car grounded. It's arguably even more important with a lead-acid
powered EV than a home appliance, as moisture from acid spray,
condensation and dirt can form a path between the pack and the car
pretty easily. If your car's body weren't grounded, it's voltage
potential, being fed by a small leakage from dirty/wet batteries, could
easily float up to a lethal level. Grounding the car prevents this from
happening.
An "isolated" charger isn't just a charger with good insulation; it
provides power that isn't *referenced* from earth ground. It isn't 120V
(or any voltage) higher/lower than earth, because it isn't in a circuit
with the earth, as mains voltage is. The isolated charger's outputs are
only referenced against each other; you couldn't kill yourself by
touching the car in one place even in bare, wet feet, but you could
still bridge two differently-energized parts of the circuit and receive
a shock. This setup requires a large, expensive, heavy transformer to
achieve.
Great explanation. But, the transformer only needs to be large and heavy
if it is used at low frequency (60 Hz line frequency).
That's what I'm doing : I have a large, heavy ( 75 lb) , but relatively
cheap ($90 new from Ebay) 60 Hz 3KVA isolation transformer between the line
and my charger. It lives on the garage wall, so weight isn't a problem.
But, if you use the transformer at higher ( several KHz) frequencies, like,
for example, the Zivan isolated chargers, the size and weight penalty is
small.
Phil
As an aside, normally, objects around you that aren't being actively
energized by a power source tend to float at the same voltage potential
even if not physically connected to each other because the air has some
humidity which conducts electrical charges to earth ground. This happens
slowly of course, so this is only good for keeping small static charges
in check. In the winter there is less humidity, so charges bleed off
more slowly, and often even small static charges develop a voltage
potential that's enough to feel.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Quick PFC20 question
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:19:52 -0500
Phil wrote:
The PFC20 is not an isolated charger. One side of the pack is connected
directly to one side of the AC line. The rational behind grounding the
car body is that a fault ( for example, a connection between the pack and
the car body) would not result in a dangerous situation - where, standing
on
the ground and touching the car body could shock you.
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm just not getting this.
Let's use a microwave oven as an example.
As it is now, it's plugged into the wall using a 3 prong connector.
If the item has an internal short, the "equipment ground"(3rd prong)
deals with it.
Now let's hook the microwave up as you and Joe suggest.
What I'm suggesting is exactly the same way most appliances ( and, good
tools, not "double insulated") are wired. That is - the ground wire ( that
round prong) connects earth ground to the chassis ( or body) of the
appliance. That pretty much prevent the body of the appliance ( or car)
from being at any voltage different from ground, so touching the car is
always safe. You should also have a GFI, as a secondary protection system.
Let's wire
the microwave up to the entire kitchen for the ground.
Can you explain what you mean here? (are you using the third ground prong?)
This way if
I'm over using the sink or the refrigerator and the microwave has an
internal short, will I maybe be affected or involved in it?
That is how I see the charger as being. Connected to the battery pack
and plugged into the wall outlet.
Are you talking about not grounding the car? I don't see any advantage to
leaving the car body ungrounded. It for the safety of others, as well as
you.
Why tie the car into this system?
Roland's car is not wired up like that. How is the White Zombie wired
up?
_________________________________________________________________
Its tax season, make sure to follow these few simple tips
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We put the bike on the dyno today at TK Motorsports. Even
turned down to 900 amps, the KillaCycle is so powerful it _bent_ the
tie-down I-beams on the dyno, and then _broke_ one of the hold-down
straps. We had a total of _7_ straps holding the bike down to the
dyno, but that wasn't enough! It was an exciting moment that the film
crew caught on tape (and Derek caught on tape as well,) but
everything was OK. Just slightly deformed beams on the dyno, a broken
tie down strap, and an adrenaline rush for Bart, who was on the bike
at the time. We decided that three runs was enough for today. :-)
I just put up a short clip from the shoot on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCD9nVwmNI
(Sorry, this was before all the major excitement.)
Here is a link to a few snapshots of the filming in progress:
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/ahdra-race-march-07/
We made three runs on the dyno. I was like water off a
duck's back to the battery pack. It never even warned up beyond 63 F.
When we put it on the charger, it came up in about 10 minutes. The
new BMS that Steve, Scot, and Derek built is working perfectly. All
the green lights came on nearly simultaneously. It was a thing of
beauty to behold.
The sequence will appear on "Future Wheels" on the VOOM
channel of Dish TV in May sometime.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:56 -0700, Steven Lough wrote:
> Geezzz,, I thought that with all the Band Width on Li-Ion
> that Bill Dube's anouncement that they were going to actually offer FOR
> SALE a little Cube-Like 12V Battery, made up of A123 cells, would have
> set the EVDL ON FIRE.....
I'm considering it for the 12v system battery in my planned car.
Presumably the BMS will protect it when run dead flat? 4.6Ah would make
that quite possible if the DC/DC isn't on all the time and you don't
drive it regularly.
If this was a regular problem, you could make a "starter" button to
parallel one of the traction batteries for a second or two.
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--- Begin Message ---
If you let a lead-acid battery run flat, you will ruin it if it stays
that way too long. The longer you let it stay flat, the worse the
damage you will do.
Our lead-acid drop-in battery is just that. If you let it
run flat, you take the risk of damaging it. The longer it stays dead,
the worse the damage will be. It will not protect itself from
charging system problems.
You'll have to wait for the EV version if you want external
signals for over, and under voltage.
If you think about it carefully, you realize that you never
want to disconnect the battery in an ICE unless it is going to catch
fire or burst. If the vehicle has a bad alternator, the battery must
simply "take the abuse". If you were to disconnect the battery in a
car with a bad alternator on, say, railroad tracks, you would save
the battery, but kill the occupants of the car. Having the lights go
out suddenly and completely on a curvy road on a moonless night would
be another example of why you would never disconnect the accessory
battery on a car.
In the overvoltage case, there are similar issues. If you
disconnect the battery, the runaway alternator will toast the
electronics in the car, stalling it on railroad tracks, or popping
the headlights on a dark road. It's safer to ruin the battery.
Bill Dube'
At 06:22 AM 3/28/2007, you wrote:
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 08:56 -0700, Steven Lough wrote:
> Geezzz,, I thought that with all the Band Width on Li-Ion
> that Bill Dube's anouncement that they were going to actually offer FOR
> SALE a little Cube-Like 12V Battery, made up of A123 cells, would have
> set the EVDL ON FIRE.....
I'm considering it for the 12v system battery in my planned car.
Presumably the BMS will protect it when run dead flat? 4.6Ah would make
that quite possible if the DC/DC isn't on all the time and you don't
drive it regularly.
If this was a regular problem, you could make a "starter" button to
parallel one of the traction batteries for a second or two.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich is talking about the green wire at the Anderson Connector that is
connected with a three wire cable. Only the positive and negative leads are
use, not the green wire, which is not connected to the two wire Anderson
Connector.
If you have a off board charger setting on a bench, all you have is the two
battery charger wires to the battery. The PFC chargers are already AC
grounded inside by the AC ground. Just take a continuity reading from the
AC ground and the a PFC charger and you will read a continuity between the
two.
If the battery charger is install in the EV, and fasten to the EV chassis,
the EV chassis is then AC grounded anyway. The AC input connector
receptacle may be a self grounding type, and that too grounds the EV frame
and body.
Knowing that the PFC is a non-isolated unit, I then made it a isolated
grounded system, by having the PFC charger chassis grounded only, but
isolated from the EV frame. I work with isolated grounding systems for the
last 50 years and there are devices, receptacles, connectors and housings
that maintain this ground isolation.
The color code for isolated grounding system in the AC side, is orange for
the devices and a green conductor with a yellow tracer. My old CableForm
charger which was replace by the PFC charger was also not isolated, but was
also had isolated grounding from the chassis by have the charger install in
a non-conductive enclosure as well as the batteries that was install in a
non-conductive enclosure.
Even with the non-conductive enclosures, they will be a conductive tracking
of current across the plastic battery tops which may be touching the
fiberglass containers and may track to a metal chassis, which mine batteries
to frame is reading about 0.01 volts.
Without this isolation, it would be reading 240 volts while the charger is
on. A ground detection system can be install to read the level of conduction
that may be conducting to a EV frame. We use these types of devices in
isolated ground systems, as in operating rooms, explosion proof areas,
explosion storages, communication and computer rooms.
If the level of voltage conduction is reach which you can adjust, it will
then give a green, yellow, red warning. When it gives a yellow warning,
than you have time to shut down the loads. If its reads a red warning, than
it will shut the main power to the isolated circuits by used of a AC
magnetic contactor.
My EV has the isolation circuits wires and AC contactor for this type of
system, but did not install the ground detection devices, because for the
last 30 years, the double and triple insulated enclosures work very well to
reduce this current tracking.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: Quick PFC20 question
> Rich, no offence intended but that doesn't sound like very sensible
> advice. Cars (even fibreglass ones) aren't designed to be double
> insulated. DIY battery boxes and wiring aren't usually either. If
> you've got mains electricity in any appliance with "floating
> metalwork" then it should be grounded - don't just rely on a GFCI
> breaker, especially if it's user supplied.
>
> Sorry to go on about it but this sounds like an accident waiting to
> happen.
>
>
> On 3/26/07, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > no need to wire in ground.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:34 PM
> > Subject: Quick PFC20 question
> >
> >
> > > I just got my shiny new Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger a yesterday!!
> > >
> > > I want to get this thing maintaining my Buggy batteries but I have a
> > > question. On the output side there is an Anderson connector and a
> > > unused green ground wire. Since my charger case won't be tied to the
> > > chassis of the buggy (seeing as how its fiberglass) should I connect
> > > the green wire of the output to frame ground?
> > >
> > > Thanx,
> > > Paul "neon" G.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bill
Fun stuff
So what the dyno say anyway? Any data before you
wrecked the guys dyno? LMAO.
I'll be sitting at my computer all weekend so I'll be
sending you "happy thoughts". Best of luck this
weekend.
With what sounds like a new ratio and series parallel
shifting you have any thoughts as to where you're
hoping to get ET wise?
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> We put the bike on the dyno today at TK
> Motorsports. Even
> turned down to 900 amps, the KillaCycle is so
> powerful it _bent_ the
> tie-down I-beams on the dyno, and then _broke_ one
> of the hold-down
> straps. We had a total of _7_ straps holding the
> bike down to the
> dyno, but that wasn't enough! It was an exciting
> moment that the film
> crew caught on tape (and Derek caught on tape as
> well,) but
> everything was OK. Just slightly deformed beams on
> the dyno, a broken
> tie down strap, and an adrenaline rush for Bart, who
> was on the bike
> at the time. We decided that three runs was enough
> for today. :-)
>
> I just put up a short clip from the shoot
> on YouTube:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCD9nVwmNI
> (Sorry, this was before all the major excitement.)
>
> Here is a link to a few snapshots of the
> filming in progress:
>
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/ahdra-race-march-07/
>
> We made three runs on the dyno. I was like
> water off a
> duck's back to the battery pack. It never even
> warned up beyond 63 F.
> When we put it on the charger, it came up in about
> 10 minutes. The
> new BMS that Steve, Scot, and Derek built is working
> perfectly. All
> the green lights came on nearly simultaneously. It
> was a thing of
> beauty to behold.
>
> The sequence will appear on "Future Wheels"
> on the VOOM
> channel of Dish TV in May sometime.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Hey all
I was gonna just wait and buy a copy this morning but
Rod sent me the invite (on top of Ryans) telling me I
was gonna just love it! Although I'm still going to
see if it's on the rack this morning I couldn't help
but download it for a quick sneak peek 8^o
What a thumbs up article towards EV's 8^)
To top it all off it was pretty fun to see my name in
print on a magazine of this caliper!
Anyway I guess John does love me lmao!
WTG Wayland! as well as all that attended who helped
make a great EVent as well as an awesome write up!
Anyway I'm hoping we all look back at '07 as one of
those good old years with thoughts of fast times and
good friends!
As for me I couldn't be a prouder "electroid" 8^)
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
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--- Begin Message ---
Boy this sounds like a fun project. I would love to do something like this as
well. I will have to wait a little while, as my son is only almost 2 years
old. Jim, why do you have to live so far away? Perhaps by the time he is old
enough to drive, maybe Jim will have franchised out his EV motor building
business, and there would be a shop close to where I live...
Brian
On Tue Mar 27 21:32 , Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
>Hey Damon, all
>
>--- damon henry [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> I haven't spoke much about it yet, but I have a new
>> EV project in hand.
>> With my son turning 16 in two weeks, we decided to
>> take on a little
>> father/son EV adventure. I am now the proud owner
>> of of a fairly straight
>> 1970 Datsun pickup, and the plan is to convert it
>> this summer so the boy has
>> something cool to drive to school next year.
>
>I thought this was cool, what a great project to start
>a teen driving in.
>
>> You may recall Jim Husted gave me a hard time (is
>> there anyone he hasn't yet) after a couple of >
>his "Baby's" were sold and I mentioned that they >
>may be a little overpriced for anyone who was not
>> planning on racing with them.
>
>I recall it very well thank you 8^P By the way Damons
>shop name is now Buck and a quarter so it makes his
>sons name 2 bits 8^o
>Btw You ain't seen a hard time yet 8^)
>
>> Jim tried to mock me by claiming that he was going
>> to paint my name on one
>> of his cores and come into the shop each morning and
>> cuddle it and talk to
>> it until I made a trip there and rebuilt it myself
>> just so I had some perspective on the work he does.
>
>Mock you? I mearly wanted to know what you'd have
>wanted had a mile in my shoe been walked 8^)
>What Damon doesn't know is we're putting this up at
>ebay to see what it goes for, and or, what he's
>wanting, LMAO.
>
>> What you don't know, and what I think might have
>> surprised Jim, was that I
>> immediately shot him back a private email that I
>> would love to come work
>> with him for a day or two, but I was thinking of
>> doing a small truck for my
>> son, and would he mind if we both came and got our
>> hands dirty. Of course,
>> I didn't want some little dinky play thing motor, I
>> wanted something big
>> enough to push a light weight EV around.
>
>Well I do admit I thought you were Darin Gilbert or
>someone far away, LMAO! Guess that's what I get for
>being a smarty pants. Anyway like Buck1/4 says he
>called my bluff and went all-in. Being he'd thrown
>his son into the pot and added a pocket bike in trade
>I coudn't say no 8^) Now if I'd a had a spine I'd
>have told him to get off my leg I was just joking8^o
>but I'm a sucker for this kind of thing 8^) Besides I
>got a pretty good hand with a win, win, win outcome.
>
>I got a new toy, the kid (sorry forget his name, very
>brain dead from drive) gets a cool EV, Dad gets a
>bonding / learning outing and hopefully you all get a
>good read on how this all pans out. Although I'm
>gonna help these guys they are doing the work 8^)
>
>> Since then Jim and I have been making arraingements,
>> and today is the day
>> that we met up at the Forklift boneyard to look
>> through motor cores.
>> I don't know how much cofee Jim starts his day off
>> with, but he reminded me
>> of a squirrel looking for nuts. He was all over the
>> place. He went over,
>> he went under, he squeezed through, he climbed up,
>> he hefted, he pushed, he
>> pulled and...
>
>They moved stuff since I was last there! I didn't
>know he'd put the create I was looking for on the
>third rack, LMAO! I knew he had some clean ADC's but
>I couldn't find the dang things. I found a nice 71/2"
>48 volt Hyster/Yale that was really cherry but he
>wanted 450 (down from the 750.00 listed on net as a
>lift motor). I told him "bag that" and hauled that
>one back, that's when he pointed to the create up on
>the top rack. I shimmied up and had a look and they
>were what I was looking for 8^)
>
>> finally he found just the right cores,
>> one for me and one for
>> him. The ones we ended up with were up on the third
>> rack, and the guy at
>> the shop told Jim with a quiver in his voice, "We
>> can get a lift truck in
>> there" as he was afraid Jim would try climbing down
>> with one tucked under
>> his arm.
>
>There were two dead lifts blocking the rack so we had
>to tow one out of the way. Rather than try to move
>the second one (no way the guy was gonna get it down
>without the other lift moved) I just put the forks
>together, went back up and threw them on the forks.
>Saved at least a 1/2 hour, the more time we take the
>higher the next price is kinda thing. Besides I can't
>tell you how many times I've had to do that in 25
>years 8^) At 45 I can still shoot up a rack pretty
>good though 8^P It was starting to feel like work
>though. Did you feel like if I fell to my death
>getting "your" core the list would come hunt you
>down?? LMAO!
>
>> It was fun though watching him weed through stuff.
>> He used a flashlight to
>> look inside of them, he checked out the brushes,
>> turned them by hand, and
>> either dismissed them as not worth the effort or set
>> them aside as possible
>> candidates. I knew ours were good, because he
>> didn't take anytime at all on
>> them. He just went straight to getting us a good
>> price, and we were on our
>> way.
>
>Always happy to entertain, lol.
>
>Well I've gotten a couple older cores from this guy
>cheaper but the other older cores didn't look so great
>and I wanted to find a nice one for you guys.
>I'd hoped for better but we did okay concerning
>there's no freight and the brushes are all but new so
>additional costs there (unless you needed the leads to
>bling) other than that they are just seated and look
>great.
>
>> He kept a pretty good poker face during
>> negotiations, but afterwords
>> he let me know that these babies are practically
>> brand new. So rather than
>> spending our time rebuilding them, we will be doing
>> things like pressing in
>> a new shaft, and adding a cooling port for forcing
>> air through since they
>> are on the smallish size for EV use.
>
>It's the game, the harder you need it the higher the
>price. If we'd of had more time we could have walked
>and let him fester that he'd lost a sale but we
>didn't. We ended up buying two at 200.00 bucks each
>for those wondering.
>
>Ya I wanted to find something really slimy but still
>good 8^) I wasn't gonna pass on something because it
>looks new, LMAO! You'll still get the full treatment
>and you'll both work hard and go home tired and sleep
>like babies I will see to that 8^P You just won't get
>so dirty, hehe.
>
>> I don't know if Jim wants me to mention this one or
>> not, because for now it
>> is the one that got away. Or perhaps he needs to
>> ignore it on a few more
>> trips so he get's a better price later, but there
>> was one gem that we passed
>> over as it was a bit large for what I am doing.
>> Still, if you are
>> considering something in the 12" range, you might
>> want to contact Jim and
>> see what he can do for you. There was a beauty
>> still in one of the "Parts
>> Lifts". I could see from the look in his eye that
>> Jim fell in love with
>> this one right away and would love to make it one of
>> his...
>
>Yeah the big one did spark my eye but it's a pretty
>late model so he'll probably sit on that a while.
>I'll play a little cat and mouse maybe I can squeek it
>out of him. Let's see how much that cash helps with
>his vacation he mentioned, LMAO.
>
>Well I'm glad you didn't think me rude, I was trying
>to hussle and get the job done. We'll chat when your
>at the shop was my thinking. Anyway this ought to be
>fun we'll get some pics to share as we do it. BTW
>Kayla loves the pocketbike (Damon brought it with
>him). I got some baby motors and at 12 volts she'll
>have a lot of fun on it. Probably won't be long before
>she wants a 6.7 and some Hawkers on it, LMAO.
>
>Okay my brains mush.
>
>Ohh btw the second motor is for Edaurdo, he contacted
>me asking if I could get him something. If you got
>your ears on Eddie boy I got you a nice motor 8^)
>Not EVerything one could hope for but from your
>discriptions this is probably gonna rock your world
>Heck it might EVen make you look like Wayland himself
>down there 8^)
>
>Cya all
>Jim Husted
>Hi-Torque Electric
>
>PS: Stay out of my accorn pile motor boy, LMAO!
>I think he saw you and doubled my price, had nothing
>to do with the later model, LMAO!
>
>
>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Be a PS3 game guru.
>Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
>http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform\?platform=120121
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could you point us to some true independent data on the Altairnano
Batteries? Bob Goebel at Altairnano quickly rattled off 3 entities by
phone, but didn't send any links.
Thanks.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Phoenix motorcars featured on Kokam site (was: Electric
Imp featured in Kokam product info)
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, March 27, 2007 11:15 am
To: [email protected]
Kokam produced the initial cells for Altair using Altairs titanate
material.
My understanding is that Altair now has their own production line and
has produced cells on their own.
On 3/26/07, Osmo S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...and I was surprised to see Phoenix motorcars mentioned on the
> Kokam site. They claim the car "is powered by batteries from
> Altairnano/Kokam". As far as I know Phoenix uses only Altairnano´s. I
> ´ve seen the same news article elsewhere, but no Kokam mentioned.
>
> Is this some news service´s or Kokam´s PR-people´s mistake, or
> intentionally misleading?
>
> terveisin, Osmo
>
>
> http://www.kokam.com/custom/notice_view.php?
> page=1&I_idx=6&sch=&key=&no=4
>
>
> Ryan Stotts kirjoitti 27.3.2007 kello 5.39:
>
> > I was surprised to see it featured in this:
> >
> > http://press.team-orion.com/press/avionics/kokam_quality.pdf
> >
> > http://www.proev.com/
> >
>
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
YES!!!!
Rod sent me a copy also. Absolutely awesome! I'm still going to get a print
copy. This is serious stuff!
.
.
.
.
Now that's what I'm talking about!!
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
Hey all
I was gonna just wait and buy a copy this morning but
Rod sent me the invite (on top of Ryans) telling me I
was gonna just love it! Although I'm still going to
see if it's on the rack this morning I couldn't help
but download it for a quick sneak peek 8^o
What a thumbs up article towards EV's 8^)
To top it all off it was pretty fun to see my name in
print on a magazine of this caliper!
Anyway I guess John does love me lmao!
WTG Wayland! as well as all that attended who helped
make a great EVent as well as an awesome write up!
Anyway I'm hoping we all look back at '07 as one of
those good old years with thoughts of fast times and
good friends!
As for me I couldn't be a prouder "electroid" 8^)
Cya all
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Peter VanDerWal
> Since you aren't going to be pulling any significant current
> through it, you can use a relay whose contacts are rated for
> AC voltage, i.e. a common 120-240V AC rated relay with say a
> 12V dc coil.
This can work; but you'll have to test it to be sure. AC rated relays and
switches depend on the AC line voltage to cross zero 120 times a second (at 60
Hz). Any arc that was established when the contacts opened will automatically
extinguish at each zero crossing.
On DC, the arc won't extinguish unless the open contact's spacing is large
enough. How large depends on the DC voltage.
You'd be surprised how little current it takes to sustain an arc. Also, if the
contacts are very close together and have pointed edges, you will get corona
and leakage current even if no arc is present. So, it is quite possible to have
a contact that is only switching 1 milliamp leak or arc with a high DC voltage
present.
*Test* whatever switch or relay you are using to be *sure* it is truly opening
when switching DC.
Or better yet, use a switch or relay that has DC ratings. Then you know it has
been tested, and passed.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Quick PFC20 question
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 07:57:55 -0600
Rich is talking about the green wire at the Anderson Connector that is
connected with a three wire cable. Only the positive and negative leads
are
use, not the green wire, which is not connected to the two wire Anderson
Connector.
If you have a off board charger setting on a bench, all you have is the two
battery charger wires to the battery. The PFC chargers are already AC
grounded inside by the AC ground. Just take a continuity reading from the
AC ground and the a PFC charger and you will read a continuity between the
two.
If the battery charger is install in the EV, and fasten to the EV chassis,
the EV chassis is then AC grounded anyway. The AC input connector
receptacle may be a self grounding type, and that too grounds the EV frame
and body.
Knowing that the PFC is a non-isolated unit, I then made it a isolated
grounded system, by having the PFC charger chassis grounded only, but
isolated from the EV frame. I work with isolated grounding systems for the
last 50 years and there are devices, receptacles, connectors and housings
that maintain this ground isolation.
The color code for isolated grounding system in the AC side, is orange for
the devices and a green conductor with a yellow tracer. My old CableForm
charger which was replace by the PFC charger was also not isolated, but was
also had isolated grounding from the chassis by have the charger install in
a non-conductive enclosure as well as the batteries that was install in a
non-conductive enclosure.
Even with the non-conductive enclosures, they will be a conductive tracking
of current across the plastic battery tops which may be touching the
fiberglass containers and may track to a metal chassis, which mine
batteries
to frame is reading about 0.01 volts.
Without this isolation, it would be reading 240 volts while the charger is
on. A ground detection system can be install to read the level of
conduction
that may be conducting to a EV frame. We use these types of devices in
isolated ground systems, as in operating rooms, explosion proof areas,
explosion storages, communication and computer rooms.
If the level of voltage conduction is reach which you can adjust, it will
then give a green, yellow, red warning. When it gives a yellow warning,
than you have time to shut down the loads. If its reads a red warning,
than
it will shut the main power to the isolated circuits by used of a AC
magnetic contactor.
My EV has the isolation circuits wires and AC contactor for this type of
system, but did not install the ground detection devices, because for the
last 30 years, the double and triple insulated enclosures work very well to
reduce this current tracking.
Roland
Roland -
There's one thing I'm not sure about after reading you post about how your
charger is set up.
When you are charging, is the frame of the car connected to earth ground?
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll have to respectfully somewhat disagree with LMAO Jim.
I'm hoping we all look back at '07 as "the beginning"!!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:18 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
>
> Hey all
>
> I was gonna just wait and buy a copy this morning but
> Rod sent me the invite (on top of Ryans) telling me I
> was gonna just love it! Although I'm still going to
> see if it's on the rack this morning I couldn't help
> but download it for a quick sneak peek 8^o
>
> What a thumbs up article towards EV's 8^)
> To top it all off it was pretty fun to see my name in
> print on a magazine of this caliper!
>
> Anyway I guess John does love me lmao!
>
> WTG Wayland! as well as all that attended who helped
> make a great EVent as well as an awesome write up!
>
> Anyway I'm hoping we all look back at '07 as one of
> those good old years with thoughts of fast times and
> good friends!
>
> As for me I couldn't be a prouder "electroid" 8^)
>
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
