EV Digest 6611
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Quick PFC20 question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: E: May C&D Article on White Zombie (none yet in Redmond)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Powerwheels Accelerator
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: gensets was charging while driving question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Newbie melts a battery terminal
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Advanced brushes
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Advanced brushes
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Motor temp
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: E: May C&D Article on White Zombie I guess that is Tim
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New Wrightspeed Videos
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor temp
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie (none yet in Redmond)
by "Alaric G. Weigle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Quick PFC20 question
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Quick PFC20 question another
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EV converter in North Carolina
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor temp
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ADC v.s. ImPulse9
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: practical application
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Motor temp
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> It rains a LOT here in Seattle, I charge a completely un
> grounded EV off of 240..
>
> I don't get shocked.. and I am asking to be totally vaporized any
> second..Right???
>
> According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
>
> Funny Why am I NOT????
I know, I know! ;^> Perhaps because you use sealed AGMs that don't leak
acid nearly as much as floodies (so aren't as prone to leakage to
chassis), and generally are an experienced EVer who took proper
precautions elsewhere in the design of your EV?
Bear in mind that you are now an experienced EVer, but I believe you
started out many many moons ago with fairly low voltage systems (48V?)
and may well have learned some valuable lessons in a non-fatal way
before progressing up to the higher pack voltages. And, you were an
experienced tech to start with; this is a distinctly different situation
from a newbie starting out with a "low voltage" 120V vehicle and having
just enough elecrical knowledge to connect the batteries together -ve to
+ve... ;^>
> The harder part is not too toss regs and safety procedures at
> the Newbies, and explain why the hazzards known are not that
> hazzardous.
I think this is a very good point. It is very important that people
understand why something is or is not a recommended practice, and what
the risks are if they decide not to follow recommended practices.
> The last time I got shocked really hard was IN a grounded
> situation... I was plugged into a "Grounded" Out let it
> was a public site...
> The fact that the ground was not connected some wheres
> unseen.. Lit me up.
So, let's be clear about this: you did not get shocked in a grounded
situation, or because ground was properly connected, but rather because
you *thought* ground was connected and it wasn't. Sounds like exactly
the sort of situation that a GFCI could have avoided or mitigated, and
exactly why people like Neon often remind us that a GFCI is always a
good idea even with an isolated and/or grounded charger.
> I think the clearer question and solution is to make sure you
> don't have a fault.. and to never get yourself in a situation
> that can kill you.
So maybe that is something we should focus on: what are the dangerous
situations we need to avoid, and how do we tell if such a situation
exists each and every time before we plug in? What can we do to
minimise the risk of walking away from our EV after safely plugging it
in and returning to find the neighbour kid lying next to it because
something became unsafe afterwards?
> And never let the neibour Kids mess with your EV while it's charging.
This one seems straightforward, but it kind of precludes ever charging
in public unless one is committed to guarding the car the whole time.
What we do in our own (locked) garage is one thing, but if the car's in
the driveway and the neighbour kid reaches under it for his ball, etc.
and gets fried, or if you're charging in public and someone gets injured
or killed touching the car it's a different situation entirely.
And remember that individual susceptibility to shock varies greatly.
I've got a co-worker that jumps when he brushes against 30VDC, while I
think the lowest voltage I've ever felt is 72V or higher. A child could
be seriously injured by a leakage current level that would only give
some of us a good tingle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chip, all
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ted West wrote a great story and was absolutely
> correct when you
> drive with your chin up in the Zombie. You don't
> have a choice. The
> sucker throws you back in the seat so hard you
> literally can't move
> your head forward as the car lurches from the line
> and accelerates
> down the track. The car would be great for Astronaut
> training.
I've heard it's pretty good at knocking your hat clean
off your head also 8^P I believe you have one of the
funnest WZ ride stories.
> But it's a great article as others have said.
> Roderick is in there
> with Gone Postal as well as Father Time with
> Frankendragon and Otmar
> with his Porsche. Jim is mentioned in the article. I
> can see the
> Fiamp in the background of one of the photos. Even
> saw some of my
> artwork gracing several of the pictures.
They did do a great job giving a full view and taste
of the EVent. I know John pushed really hard to make
that happen! Having no control in that it's nice to
see they listened and John helped spread a little
love, Much love John 8^)
> The opening photo of Tim doing a burnout in the
> Zombie with his eyes
> fixed in a display of determination and
> concentration (there are
> probably better words to describe it) is a great
> photo.
Poor poor Tim, That's Ted West in the pic burning out!
Hey Tim we need to get you more exposure! Then again
it was probably hard for Chip to look at you with his
head pinned to the seat 8^o
On a fun note and as some love to Tim and his driving
he blew a 12.2 @104+ on the WZ last run that night
besting all of Teds runs 8^) Showed me how well Tim
knows that car!
> And the picture of John standing in his driveway
> with his garage,
I love that grumpy ass Wayland pic, heck I thought he
only looked at me like that, now I know he's just an
old grumpy looking guy! 8^o
> What a great article. I'm sure it will be available
> soon in the stores.
>
> Great work John and everyone involved!
It really is a great piece. Of course I could be a
tad bias toward the content 8^) I don't know about
Wayland but I'm so damn proud I might have to pick on
ol Hump for free 8^)
Got to run family birthday, no rest for the weary.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Only Tim lover on the list 8^o
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you priced 1000 amp contactors? Unless you can find a bunch of them
cheap (surplus), it's probably cheaper to by a standard PWM controller.
> I was wondering if anyone could tell me where to find plans for a
> contactor controller suitable for an EV. I looked pretty hard but could
> only find schematics for small fans and things. Seems like one would be
> easy enough to construct but I can't find anything for the 144v/1000 amp
> area which is what Im planning on. Im no expert or even prob an
> intermediate, but Ive had some electronics classes and should be able to
> build it from a diagram if anyone has a good one. Or any other means to
> control an ev other than the high priced controllers or a low voltage
> one for a forklift (unless it can be beafed up, I doubt, or there is
> industrial equipment that uses this high voltage and current?). Thanks.
> Pual
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 1:54 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Powerwheels Accelerator
>
> Carl Clifford wrote:
>> As long a we're talking Powerwheels, does anyone have a suggestion
>> to replace the full-on contactor accelerator. My kids get whiplash
>> everytime they push it. Any cheap resistor setups anyone knows of?
>
> The original setup uses deliberately undersized wire to act as a
> resistor to limit starting current. This obviously has drawbacks :-)
>
> Here's a simple circuit I used in my son's electric motorcycle. View it
> with a fixed width font.
>
> S1 R1
> +12v___/_____/\/\________
> | | |
> |___/____| _|_
> _____| / \ motor
> K1 |_ \___/
> |_ |
> Common_________|_________|
>
> S1 is the accelerator pedal or "go" switch. K1 is a SPST automotive
> relay. The one I used has a 12vdc coil and a 40 amp normally-open
> contact. R1 is a resistor chosen to provide a "reasonable" starting
> current (I used a 2 ohm 20 watt resistor).
>
> When you close S1, K1 will be off, so all the current flows through R1.
> The motor current is limited to about 5 amps, which limits its starting
> torque.
>
> As the motor speeds up, the voltage across it rises. When it gets to
> about 6-7 volts, K1 has enough voltage to pull in. This shorts R1,
> giving you full power.
>
> This circuit was very effective in keeping the motorcycle from pulling
> "wheelies" on starting. Note: the resistor will get VERY HOT if
> something prevents the motor from coming up to speed (like climbing too
> steep a hill or something that prevents the wheel from turning).
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gotta love that spin doctoring.
The GM Volt might never get built because the battery technology needed to
go a measly 40 miles isn't available???!!!!??
Give me a break. A 200 lb pack of Kokam LiPols (that exist today and ARE
available) would give the Volt 4 to 5 times that much range. If all you
need is 40 miles that would take, what 50lbs worth of existing batteries?
Granted they are expensive batteries, but they DO exist. They wouldn't be
nearly as expensive if they were mass produced.
What a crock.
> http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070323/AUTO01/703230
> 356&theme=Autos-Green-tech-hybrids
>>
>> GM themselves are already backing away from the Volt...
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please forward to John & Deanne
Jim at American Battery in Hayward will recast the post. There may be a
charge if it wasn't purchased from him. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Swartz" <>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Newbie melts a battery terminal
> John and Deanne, I have repaired many melted posts on older batteries.
> Somewhere I have the steel molds. They are easy to make, anyway. You
have
> to be carefull of an explosion by opening and blowing out the cell caps
and
> maybe putting a wet towell over the battery. Then you lead weld with a
low
> flame oxy acetylene torch. The real problem is in achieving or not
> disrupting the seal to the battery case. Without a good seal, there will
be
> a continuous and ongoing corrosion problem. If the post is burned off down
> into the battery too far or if the seal is destroyed, it may be better to
> just replace the battery. As I say, I have done this repair many times,
but
> experts on this board can correct me if I am missing something.
>
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 09:28:59 -0700, Grigg. John wrote
> > Hi Deanne, I think you are starting a trend. I just melted off my
> > battery post yesterday.
> > http://tinyurl.com/yv56fa
> >
> > I called around to every battery place here in Sacramento and nobody
> > is willing to recast one back on. Guess I'm buying a new battery...
> >
> > Good luck.
> > John
> >
> > Deanne Said:
> > Went to water my batteries this morning, and found a real mess:
> >
> > http://www4.ncsu.edu/~dmott/MeltedBattery2.jpg
> >
> > http://www4.ncsu.edu/~dmott/MeltedBattery1.jpg
> >
> > Car details: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1020
> >
> > Batteries are Trojan T125's, I believe about 7-8 months old. I've been
> > driving it about 3 months. This battery actually reads 6.47V
> > measured from the terminals of its adjacent batteries, but I know
> > that's at best an intermittant situation. The car has been running
> > fine, in fact I was just feeling like I was getting the hang of
> > things. And a *serious* bummer to be off the road in prime
> > convertible weather :-( Here's a start on the many questions I have:
> >
> > 1. How do I safely clean up this mess of lead?
> > 2. Is this battery toast, or can/should it be repaired?
> > 3. How could this have happened?
> > 4. How can I prevent it from happening again?
> > 5. Could any of the other batteries be damaged by this incident?
> > 6. Could this have started a fire inside the battery box?
> >
> > thanks very much - De
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > COUNTY OF SACRAMENTO EMAIL DISCLAIMER:
> > This email and any attachments thereto may contain private,
> > confidential, and privileged material for the sole use of the
> > intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this
> > email (or any attachments thereto) by other than the County of
> > Sacramento or the intended recipient is strictly prohibited.
> >
> > If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender
> immediately
> > and permanently delete the original and any copies of this email and
> > any attachments thereto.
>
____________________________________________________________________________
_
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Ford Tarus Wagon with a bench seat in the front will hold 8. Putting
enough batteries in would be a challenge. It is however possible. They
have high gross vehicle weight. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "DAVID BARWICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: ev 8 seater apv
> Hi All
>
> Any advise on a suitable 8 seater car that would favour an ev
> conversion .I have been advised that my front wheel drive lumina apv is
impossible to convert to an Ev
>
>
>
> DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Any advise on a suitable 8 seater car that would favour an ev conversion
>
> Electro Automotive wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20070325/cx_nq_uc/nq20070325
>
> Gives new meaning to "snowmobile"
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim wrote:
Neutral is better for
starting off, so if the brushes are advanced they are
"starting up" unlined but line up once the field's
magnetics warp over. This causes a drop in startup
torque and increase in current draw but increases
performance and reduces arcing and flashover as the
brushes become lined up with the warped coils.
I was thinking about using one of these:
http://www.holley.com/45-228.asp
Have one end be neutral and the other end be preset to a certain
amount of advance.
I was also thinking about getting one of these and a little inverter
to drive it and a small screen and get it mounted to where I could
visually monitor the brushes in real time, all the time:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91851
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, while we are at it, are the brushes the hottest, most critical
part of the motor? What item in the motor should be monitored for
temperature? Where could this be mounted too?
http://www.autometer.com/cat_accessoriesdetail.aspx?vid=145
Is this enough resolution to be useful? Just how hot does a motor get?
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=2771
Does the temp even need to be monitored?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 29, 2007, at 1:54 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Nice to see the Spring Safety paranoia is in full swing.
I am getting tired of it year after year.
It rains a LOT here in Seattle, I charge a completely un grounded EV
off of
240..
I don't get shocked.. and I am asking to be totally vaporized any
second..Right???
According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
Funny Why am I NOT????
Common sense!
The charger works great. You sure know how to open a can of worms :-)
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If we use this gauge:
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=2565
And if this is the temp sender for it, how do we best mount it into
the motor for best results?
http://www.autometer.com/cat_accessoriesdetail.aspx?vid=37
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
My BAD, I guess that is Tim. I guess I'm more tired
than I feel. I was showing the article to my Bro-in
law and saw my mistake.
Sorry Timbo 8^)
Never seen you so mean looking. You must have wanted
to best ol Ted times really bad 8^P
Anyway wanted to say I'm a moron!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
From Paul 'Neon' Gooch:
>The leading photo of Tim is incredible. He is looking right *through*
the camera down the track. That focus screams "bring on the >11's."
Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Paul
That's actually Ted West driving! Just an FYI. He
does have that serious look doesn't he 8^)
...Poor poor Tim, That's Ted West in the pic burning out!
Hey Tim we need to get you more exposure!
Hey Jim, maybe it's time to get a new monitor? That indeed, is Tim Brehm
'Mr. Focused' in the opening burnout photo! I agree with Neon, when Tim
gets in the car he's all business. That photo was from the two first
runs of the night where Tim warmed the car up for Ted.
The third page photo of the 'Zombie at liftoff' is the one with Ted West
at the wheel...he's the guy with his head slammed back so hard his
glasses are raised up on his forehead...the guy with his eyes closed in
fright like a little baby :-) Ted, if you're reading, I'm just giving
you a hard time :-)
This is one of the first times Tim's gotten his due, as he's got the
best shot in the article and he's even named as the driver of the record
12.151 @ 106.25 mph run.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John corrected myself 8^P
Yeah my cheap laptop sucks.
Cya
Jim
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> From Paul 'Neon' Gooch:
>
> >The leading photo of Tim is incredible. He is
> looking right *through*
> the camera down the track. That focus screams "bring
> on the >11's."
>
> Jim Husted wrote:
>
> >Hey Paul
> >
> >That's actually Ted West driving! Just an FYI. He
> >does have that serious look doesn't he 8^)
> >...Poor poor Tim, That's Ted West in the pic
> burning out!
> >Hey Tim we need to get you more exposure!
> >
>
> Hey Jim, maybe it's time to get a new monitor? That
> indeed, is Tim Brehm
> 'Mr. Focused' in the opening burnout photo! I agree
> with Neon, when Tim
> gets in the car he's all business. That photo was
> from the two first
> runs of the night where Tim warmed the car up for
> Ted.
>
> The third page photo of the 'Zombie at liftoff' is
> the one with Ted West
> at the wheel...he's the guy with his head slammed
> back so hard his
> glasses are raised up on his forehead...the guy with
> his eyes closed in
> fright like a little baby :-) Ted, if you're
> reading, I'm just giving
> you a hard time :-)
>
> This is one of the first times Tim's gotten his due,
> as he's got the
> best shot in the article and he's even named as the
> driver of the record
> 12.151 @ 106.25 mph run.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=interestedparty123
I always wonder what the long term intent of that vehicle is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey at least you got off without even a lite spankin' for that one, nothin'
like being spooled though.
eh?
;-P
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jim Husted
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 4:53 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
>
>
> Hey John corrected myself 8^P
> Yeah my cheap laptop sucks.
>
> Cya
> Jim
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Stewart Warner engine temperature meter which is the same as this
unit. A thermocouple that comes with this unit that looks like a ring wire
terminal, can bolted on to the surface you want to monitor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:25 PM
Subject: Motor temp
> If we use this gauge:
>
> http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=2565
>
> And if this is the temp sender for it, how do we best mount it into
> the motor for best results?
>
> http://www.autometer.com/cat_accessoriesdetail.aspx?vid=37
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Mar 2007 at 16:40, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> A Ford Tarus Wagon with a bench seat in the front will hold 8.
A Taurus wagon (1996 - 2004) has a curb weight of 3410-3480lb. A 1990-96
Lumina weighs 3686lb. So yes there is a small but significant weight saving
there. But it might be easier to cram batteries into the Lumina, leading to
overall more range and greater practicality. I don't think a Lumina is an
impossible conversion at all. I don't think it's any worse in the weight
department than a recent Ranger or S10 pickup.
I'd say an ADC 9" would work fine, though I'd want to fit a stick shift if
possible. A Curtis would get it moving, though not too fast. ;-)
Batteries. Hmm. What worries me is that I don't see a GVWR or payload
rating online anywhere for the Lumina. I'd want to fit 120-144v worth of golf
car batteries. With that you'd already have a 3/4T (700kg) load before you
add passengers. Would it be safe?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Border's in Austin, TX has them out on the shelf. I now have a copy;
apparently before any of the subscribers in town no less.
Great article. Way to go John!
-Alaric
Jim Husted wrote:
Hey all
As a quick summery here on the Car and Driver thing.
I ran all over Redmond looking for a copy yesterday
without any luck 8^(
I'm so glad I got an online sneak peek as I'd probably
be really bummed out right now. I'm thinking that
they won't hit the stores till next month so I'll have
to wait to buy my 5 copies for my mother 8^)
I told John we ought to autograph some copies and put
them on Ebay, LMAO. Okay maybe I have a "little"
illusions of grandure 8^P
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
> >
> > Funny Why am I NOT????
Not to drag Lee Hart into the discussion, but the difference between the way
Rich designs
and the way Lee designs couldn't be more stark. Lee thinks about what could go
wrong and
how to prevent it. Rich just thinks, "what could go wrong?"
In a way, I understand where he's coming from. The EV hobbyist community
generally cares
very much about what the charger costs and how much power it can produce.
Safety is well
down the list. Isolation would cost a fair bit more, so this is "safe enough."
I suspect that a lot of execs at Ford said the Pinto was "safe enough," too.
I know, that's a bit of a cheap shot, maybe overly dramatic, but think about
it. With no
isolation in the PFC range, GFI protection is critical. I'm pretty sure Rich
agrees with me on
that point. But PFCs don't come with this essential safety device (unless Rich
has changed
them recently).
It wouldn't be that hard to add one to at least some models. TRC makes 250
volt GFIs.
They're available as panel mount (up to 20 amps IIRC) and integrated into power
cables (up to
30 amps). In quantity it might add $40 or so to the price of the charger.
Here are a couple of
examples :
http://www.trcelectrical.com/product.php?Item_ID=929
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160080441188
I'm told that there's a note in the PFC manual suggesting that they be
connected to GFIs.
Fine, as far as it goes. But other than GFI breakers, 250 volt GFIs aren't the
sort of item one
finds at the local Home Despot. I haven't read the PFC manual, so I don't know
- does it offer
any suggestions as to where one might find a 250 volt GFI?
Is suggesting that the user connect the charger to a GFI sufficient to ward off
liability for any
hazards or accidents that occur without one?
How many of you who have PFC chargers followed the instructions and fitted a
GFI when you
installed them? Is the GFI permanently attached to the cord or to the vehicle,
so that it's GFI
protected every time and everywhere you plug in?
How many of you read that note and plan to fit a GFI someday, but just haven't
gotten round
to it yet? Do you even know where to buy a 250v GFI?
How many don't think it's very important and aren't going to bother?
How many didn't even notice that sentence in the manual?
Put enough unisolated, non-GFI protected chargers in service, and the law of
averages is
going to catch up with you. Who's going to be the first to electrocute his
kid? The neighbor's
kid? Even a nonfatal but frightening shock would be enough to prompt a lawsuit
for pain and
suffering. Who's going to pay Rich's legal bills and the judgement if that
happens?
The ethical and liability issues aside, consider what could happen to the
hobbyist EV world if
some kid gets electrocuted by an EV on charge. You know how legislators work,
especially
when they're lobbied by people whose interests are best served by marginalizing
EVs.
Chances are, they won't just pass laws banning unisolated and unprotected
chargers, they'll
ban hobbyist EVs altogether.
Got that GFI? Tested it lately?
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Just a few thoughts about the un-isolated chargers/ On 120 volts with a,
say, PFC-20 or 30 ONE side is ground, well not really, but is going back to
the box to the "neutral"If the "hot" side is connectd to that leg, are ya
STILL hot on the OTHER leg? I mean as far as the chassis of the car?On 240
volts EVerything will be hot, for sure. What am I overlooking here, Rich?
David? Lee? On the Rabbit I just grounded the car chassis/body to the third,
round pin, figuring I wouildn't get that damn tingle on damp conditions, and
I keep my batteries squeeky clean, so I shouldn't have much crud leakage?
Of course you should have the batterys non accessable to wandering kids.
Like I grew up with RR third rails as a thing-you-didn't -touch, common
sense thing. Granted common sense is gone along with steam locomotives,
Studebakers, passenger trains going with all the doors OPEN :faster
downloading and uploading. People are still killed on roller coasters
because they were being STUPID! Amtrak, and your local transit agency, MAX,
Trax, BART, MTA, keeps working on thinning out the shallow end of the gene
pool, tresspassers on the trax!
SO, as David sez; wehafta be careful in public, with EV's. Other than
sneaking up and running stupid folks over or electricuting them. Frankly, I
wish Rich would address the TVI and Radio interfearence of the damn
chargers!
Good link on GFI's Especially the louder 240 volt flavors.IF your
batteries aren't clean, I think it would be a major pain in the ass , as it
would wait a few minutes for you to go away, and trip. Ruining yur day when
you come back expecting a nice juicy car....and nothin'!Now IF you could
teach it to let go ONLY when needed?Anybody running them?Tell us more? As A
GFI is a good thing, I agree with David here.Does carbon dust in the motor
make it think there is a ground fault? Or you would hafta isolate your
battery pack with double pole contacter? Or Motor? Getting more complicated
as I go. Sigh!
Mt two miliamps worth
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
James E mailed me about getting a EV , or a conversion done on his car .. he
is in N.C
Also sombody else e mailed me about advertixing there conversion servise on
grassrootsev.com and I lost there mail before replying .
steve clunn
Hi Steve,
I'm James, from North Carolina. I'd like to have an electric but I'd
like to learn all there is to know from a consumer's standpoint before I
buy anything. If you post my email, put up the [EMAIL PROTECTED] address.
Thanks!
James
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
If we use this gauge:
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=2565
... then we can tell how hot our amps are! :)
But seriously, a display labeled "AMP TEMP" is a deal-killer for me.
Life's too short to put up with bad user interfaces.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://www.gdunge.com/>
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I have both of these motors in me shop ,,,Toqure per amp ( no volt :-) they
both look close , the Implus is about 20 lbs heaver but has the bigger brushes
by about %20 , like the 9 " the com is bigger round ... amybody running two
impluse 9's might this be the new ticket , not to big not to small ?
steve clunn .
>
> From: "Roger Daisley @ R J Ranch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2007/03/28 Wed PM 07:12:42 EDT
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: ADC v.s. ImPulse9
>
> Any comments on the Advanced D.C. 8" motor (#203-06-4001) vs.. the ImPulse 9
> motor?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have yet to actually build one, but here are some sites I have found
for good general information and introductions to EV converting.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
(check out the 'links' page)
On 3/29/07, DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Everybody
Don't want a racer, Yet lol . Being a complete novice, is there a web
sight, i could go to that would take me step by step ,through the practical
way of converting a car into Ev .In my case a lumina apv 1990, kerb weight
of 3500 lbs, front wheel drive. With round trips of approx 28 miles at
approx 45 mph, caring 7 passengers . Are there any charts that would give
me a clue, too what size motor to lb weight, to drag and subsequent axillary
items i would need. If there is such a place, could someone point me in the
right direction, so i could understand at least half of the questions posted
through my email, just practical sound common sense pictures and grammar a
complete novice could grasp please feel free to air your comments
Thank you Dave
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Tim,
I'm a bit of a novice, but will give this a shot first. At higher
voltages, arcing is likely to take place. Also, my car is a Civic, in which
case the drivetrain rotates opposite of most cars. At higher speeds and with
a constant arcing, you get decreased brush life, a high pitched squeal, and
less efficiency. All three are solved by advancing (or retarding, depending
on the rotation of the crankshaft) one's brushes.
I describe the process on my website, but the point is that it's easy,
thanks to Advanced DC's motor design.
peace,
Tim Gamber wrote:
I've been on the list a while now and have heard alot, but i still don't
understand what advancing a brush on a motor does for you?
_________________________________________________________________
http://local.live.com/?mkt=en-ca/?v=2&cid=A6D6BDB4586E357F!420
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
---------------------------------
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/29/07, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nice to see the Spring Safety paranoia is in full swing.
I am getting tired of it year after year.
[..]
According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
Not at all. I work around live equipment all the time too, I'm
qualified to do so and know (more or less) what I'm doing.
There's a difference between working with a risk that you know about,
and saying it's OK to do that to people who may not be as well
informed or experienced as you. That's all I was pointing out.
I don't care if you personally charge your EV by flying a kite in a
thunderstorm, or lasso-ing the nearest high voltage grid line, it's
your risk and your responsibility.
The harder part is not too toss regs and safety procedures at the Newbies,
and explain why the hazzards known are not that hazzardous.
The last time I got shocked really hard was IN a grounded situation... I was
plugged into a "Grounded" Out let it was a public site...
That's a different safety hazard, and it's one I've mentioned before.
It illustrates why there are standards which insist that you use a RCD
protected circuit for outdoor equipment, and you should always make
sure this is the case (and it's working) before opportunity charging.
More than one measure of protection.
E.g. most outdoor equipment is now double-insulated (i.e. plastic
case) to further protect you. But unless your car is double
insulated, or fed from an isolated supply, it should be grounded.
Also you're making the mistake of throwing the baby out with the
bathwater with that example. It's like saying it's unsafe to wear a
seat belt because you're afraid of being unable to unfasten it and get
trapped in a burning wreck.
I think the clearer question and solution is to make sure you don't have a
fault.. and to never get yourself in a situation that can kill you.
Or others, right?
That sounds sensible to me, but this doesn't match your advice to
leave an EV chassis un-grounded. How do you know if you've got a
fault there, until someone touches the live metalwork? How do you
make sure you're not in a such a situation "that can kill you" if
you've got no warning and no safety measures?
And never let the neibour Kids mess with your EV while it's charging.
Easier said than done, that one. Never charge anywhere except in your
closed garage? Never let anyone touch it in case they get a shock?
It's not a great advertisement for EVs in general or your chargers in
particular, is it?
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At 08:25 PM 29/03/07 -0500, Ryan wrote:
If we use this gauge:
http://www.autometer.com/cat_gaugedetail.aspx?gid=2565
And if this is the temp sender for it, how do we best mount it into
the motor for best results?
G'day Ryan, and All
This doesn't answer your question, but that sender looks like being really
not appropriate for an EV motor.
As for best position, an a couple of months I should be able to answer that
- and Jim Husted will probably be re-wrapping fields to install thermocouples!
I've been "volunteered" to supply the local (national) Australian Maritime
College with a DC motor and control system. They have a 'model' boat about
25' long that they take out on the river. It currently has a 12hp ICE in it
but they want to use an electric for various reasons.
The motor I believe to be a GE, but its' original lable is missing - two
rivets remain. It has "48" stamped on it, 48 volts is a reasonable
assesment, and a serial number. It currently is a dual-series field
(high/low) fully series motor that only goes one way. By the time I am done
with it I intend it to be reversing with the fields able to be operated
series or divided for high/low with low being the old high connections.
I'll be prepping the motor over the next week or so, and installing
somewhere around 12 (or more) thermocouples in various locations so they
can map temperature rise in various locations, and asses the positions for
optimal positioning to protect the motor. They will be looking at motor
efficiency as well as air blowing rates and a bunch of other "academic"
parameters. They even intend looking at inbound air temp vs outbound air
temp against volume to calculate the energy increase from the waste heat of
the motor (not sure how they intend to accurately measure the air
mass-flow, though!). They plan on Dyno testing the motor so that they can
pick an optimal propellor for it.
I'll be supplying them with a GE SCR controller that they will be able to
play with smoothing the battery current, and probably loaning them a Curtis
to compare later once they have a dataset of performance for the SCR
controller.
The motor has a female spline, I know that it is a problem and there are
various means to do the job, but I took the difficult :^) decision of
handing them the spline stub and saying "there is your spline, adapt that".
They are intending to drive straight off the end of the motor with a box to
duct out the cooling air, so they can put a carrier bearing on the other
side of the box, before the propellor shaft adaptor.
The thermocouple positions will probably be:
1,2) Isolated in two 90 degrees apart brush holders, or if I can do it with
good electrical isolation with good thermal bond in the brushes themselves.
3,4,5,6,7) in a group around the end of one field 3) againt the field pole,
4) against the body tube, 5) under the wrap on the face closest to the
brush, 6) under the wrap on the face closest the rotor and 7) central to
the winding.
8,9,10,11,12) half-way down the field in the same configuration.
I am thinking of putting four in the airflow one between each field so to
see how the air temperatures vary around the motor (to compare airflow
effectiveness of one blower port vs two or more). Another may go into a
pole shoe.
Does anyone know where a typical ADC etc thermal switch is positioned? If
it is somewhere other than one of the locations mentioned, I'll put one
there as well.
As always, comments welcome
Regards
[Technik] James
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Hi David
Thank you for your reply after looking every where for the GVWR I found it
on the drivers door which is 2163 kg would this indicate that i could load
700kg of battery's and still have 1463 kg of passengers and if the weight of
the 3.1 v6 engine and auto box was taken into consideration would that
increase The vechile has a compressor which keeps the rear suspension level
regardless of load I told being a front wheel drive would cause further
problems how would you overcome that
Regards Dave
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 29 Mar 2007 at 16:40, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> A Ford Tarus Wagon with a bench seat in the front will hold 8.
A Taurus wagon (1996 - 2004) has a curb weight of 3410-3480lb. A 1990-96
Lumina weighs 3686lb. So yes there is a small but significant weight saving
there. But it might be easier to cram batteries into the Lumina, leading to
overall more range and greater practicality. I don't think a Lumina is an
impossible conversion at all. I don't think it's any worse in the weight
department than a recent Ranger or S10 pickup.
I'd say an ADC 9" would work fine, though I'd want to fit a stick shift if
possible. A Curtis would get it moving, though not too fast. ;-)
Batteries. Hmm. What worries me is that I don't see a GVWR or payload
rating online anywhere for the Lumina. I'd want to fit 120-144v worth of golf
car batteries. With that you'd already have a 3/4T (700kg) load before you
add passengers. Would it be safe?
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