EV Digest 6631
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OverVoltage
by "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: walking more efficient than rolling ? .. was Re: Bob Schneveis'
Walking Elec
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OverVoltage
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) for what its worth
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: tie-downs, was Auto Watering of Ni-Cads
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 357 MPH!!!!!!!!! an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: History Lesson?
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Lee's BMS group order and cap bank
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Motor Question
by "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: History Lesson?
by "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Alternator to charge question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: History Lesson?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Basic rectification question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pack Balance?
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: History Lesson?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: walking more efficient than rolling ? .. was Re: Bob Schnevei
s' Walking Electric Chariot
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: History Lesson?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: History Lesson?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: [EV] Re: [EV] Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: walking more efficient than rolling ? .. was Re: Bob
Schneveis' Walking Elec
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I see motors that are rated for dual voltages (...36/48v).
Why the dual volts?
Were would you use them and how would you implement the different voltages?
It appears that some motors are being used at voltages above their ratings.
Is that the case or am I misreading this?
If this is actually what is happening then what are the limits of this and
how do you know what a given motor is capable of?
David Hankins
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Basic rectification question
Lee, this is brilliant. How do I understand how much current might be
generated and how to size components? Are the motor leads simply connected
to battery via some type of contactor? I may have to rig a test setup and
play with this concept. Thanks!
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 3, 2007 12:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: Basic rectification question
From: Frank John
> Thanks for the input everyone. I'm trying to come up with a quick and
> dirty way of using relatively inexpensive off-the-shelf components to
> make a "Mt. Washington" regen system... 144 or 156 volt...
Aha; now it makes a little more sense.
You can build a "quick and dirty" regen system with an ordinary AC induction
motor, a big load capacitor (to make it an induction generator), and a
bridge rectifier. Such a system has no way to control the amount of regen
you get (except by shifting). But it automatically starts regen as soon as
the AC motor reaches the speed where the peak of its AC voltage exceeds the
battery pack voltage. And, it automatically stops generating if the regen
current gets too high (where the capacitors no longer keep the power factor
leading).
If you use a normal 120vac 60hz induction motor rated at 3450 rpm with a
144vdc pack, it will start generating at around 3000 rpm. Charging current
will rise as the speed increases, and will peak at around 4000 rpm where it
will abruptly stop generating. So, you have to shift to keep the rpm in this
3000-4000 rpm range.
If these limitations are acceptable, it's certainly an easy setup!
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well actually a person riding a bike is more efficent than a person walking,
but for a car compared to a person i don't think so.
From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: walking more efficient than rolling ? .. was Re: Bob Schneveis'
Walking Electric Chariot
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:01:12 +0530
with my merit ranking in high school and science
background, i too feel a bit odd when the professor
says that walking is more efficient than wheels ..
especially since he has been involved personally in
the mechanics of human motion in his job, i tend to
take his pronouncement rather seriously ..
with the kind of ev he has made, as shown in the same
video, verification of this concept may help
peekay
(personally i still don't feel that walking robot is
more efficient than rotating wheel drive)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
> No way, peekay... "walking" ain't more efficient than rotary. HP is no
> comparison without work x (over) time/distance.
>
> Walking is "recipocal", like any piston, driven by steam, or gasoline
> or diseasal...
>
> Stop and go is NFG, compared to rotary.
>
> *Spun* by magnets and electrons? Rules. No contest.
>
> ps... IMHE (in my humble experience) 2/5 HP pushes me to 20kph. That
> electric riskshaw looks like it'd take me all day long... TGT... that's
> "to get there"... the important part of any commute :)
>
> tks again
> Lock
> human-electric hybrid
> Toronto
>
> --- peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > walking motion is more efficient than wheels .. says this
> > professor .. his electric rickshaw uses a 5 lb motor and
> > pulls 2 people easily
> >
> > does he have a website/email ?
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> > (strange coincidence .. his rickshaw looks almost exactly
> > like the rickshaws here in calcutta, india where i am presently
> > located !)
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:25 AM
> > Subject: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
> >
> >
> > > I know this has been mentioned on this list before and I have
> > mentioned
> > Bob
> > > from time to time with quotes of his. This is a great video from
> > You Tube
> > > that I think is a must see.
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ZquJIolvY
> > >
> > > Roderick Wilde
>
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Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN
Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I see motors that are rated for dual voltages
> (...36/48v).
> Why the dual volts?
> Were would you use them and how would you implement
> the different voltages?
Hey David
That's just a data point of what the motor was
designed for at a cont., 1 hour, or 5 minute duty
cycle rating. That same motor has an X voltage /
current rating of 7 seconds lets say also.
> It appears that some motors are being used at
> voltages above their ratings.
> Is that the case or am I misreading this?
> If this is actually what is happening then what are
> the limits of this and
> how do you know what a given motor is capable of?
You race with it, LMAO!
Hope this helps, this will be the kind of thing I'll
address as best I can with the FAQ pages I'll write
up. Sorry haven't had time yet 8^(
Still at work, gotta run.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There has been talk about trans problems in S-10s, I don't know why or what
went wrong, BUT, when I do an in house conversion, I built a test jig. I made
dummy of a wrap 9 motor, same as a ADC and warp 11, bolt pattern, I have it run
by a electric motor on the bottom out shaft, I cut the holes for mounting the
blank adapter plate to the dummy motor, then put the already made coupler in
the up shaft, bolt the plate to the motor, then sit the trans on (bell housing
facing the floor). Put 12 volts to the drive motor and check run out on the
trans input shaft, I use a dial indicator with a 4 in probe and tap the trans
till it reads 0, YES 0 then clamp it down on the trans mounting holes, and read
again, if off, I re tap the trans to do a check and bring it back to 0, yes 0.
drill 1 hole to bolt the trans to the adapter plate, check again, and tap to
get back to 0, yes 0, then 1 more hole 180 degrees away and bolt it, it WILL be
at 0 again, After I have all the trans mounting
hols drilled and bolted in place. I draw around the bell housing for a contour
fit, put it on the CNC,,and presto, its done.
That's just me. I cant say how or why any one is having problems with shaft
alignment, I don't. If I have to send out an adapter plate and coupler, with
out a "on hand" trans I do the best I can, to get it set up mathematically,
usually almost dead on, maybe 2 or 2.5 Thous out, still with in OEM specks .
but that's just me Wayne ev-blue
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> a fun question.
><snip>
> whatever boats use?
Boaters enjoy knotty things, or used to. I believe the original
suggestion was to use tie-down rubber straps that "truckers" use?
Back in the day, truckers used a knot called, funnily enough, the
truckers hitch:
http://www.kayakhelp.com/kayak-knots/truckers-hitch.php
While there are thousands of knots and variations of knots, these
days sailors only use a handful, as most needs have been replaced by
mechanical terminations etc... They might use a turnbuckle in this
application...
Another old way to really tighten things down would be a Spanish
windlass. One example here:
http://aatherton06.home.insightbb.com/US_Fork_Page/chapter8.html
Gotta be careful with old "tried-and-true" knots. Many were designed
around natural fibre lines (there are almost no "ropes" afloat), and
made no allowance for todays modern (slippery) synthetics...
No idea what rope materials these days would stand up to battery
acid... kevlar? Carbon?
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
> zip ties?
> Blister packaging - I can never get it open without a hassle.
>
> JF
>
>
>
> David Roden wrote:
> > On 4 Apr 2007 at 7:16, Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> >> Can anyone recommend a good tie
> >> down for batteries that doesn't corrode and goes on fairly
> quickly?
> >
> > I've been thinking for years that there should be a way to use the
> poly
> > strapping ...
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: 357 MPH!!!!!!!!! an' Stuff
> Hey Bob, Damon, all
>
> --- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > You bet they are EV's. If you ever come to Portland
> > and have the Max Train
> > swish past you you will definitely recognize the
> > sound :-)
>
> I actually did a service call on them a number of
> years ago. I can't remember why but I remember seeing
> those big long motors 8^) I had one look at the
> monsters and had to tell them I wasn't setup for
> anything that big 8^( It was a fun trip though worthy
> of a Bob's two train thumbs up EVenture 8^)
> Hi Jim;
Ya mean they wern't gunna have you do a few of their motors for the
NEDRA Commuter car Winternationals<g>? I THINK those motors are rather
long-ish for driving both axles of each truck(Wheel assembly)With a wurm
drive setup, to the bull gears on the axles? Gives them a posi-traction,
important for racing, I mean, going, on rainy nights!
My twpo motors worth
Bob
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
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>
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12:48 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is an interesting suggestion. It is simple in that you just tag
into the series/parallel contactor signal to run it and it would be
relatively simple to implement. Making the brush rigging rotatable
instead of fixed would likely be the more time-consuming part, but it
would be straight-forward to do.
The brushes need air to work properly. They do not work correctly in
any gas but air. I have run small brush motors in nitrogen, argon,
helium, and in vacuum. The brushes (and commutator) quickly fail if
they are not in air.
Thanks for the excellent idea.
Bill Dube'
Bruce W. wrote:
A EV dummy suggestion: Use variable timing while going
down the track. Have a solenoid adjust the timing as
it moves from Series to parallel. That way you have
good torque all the way down the track. Again only a
thought. May want to ask Denise Berube how well that
would work before jumping into it. I saw a motorized
method he has but I believe it is a manual adjustment
from a panel in the cockpit. Nor did I ever see him
adjust it in the couple runs I saw him run. And as
fast as these vehicle go I suspect there is no time to
adjust by hand when going down the track.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 12:56 -0700, David Hankins wrote:
> >From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design
> and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the
> wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive?
I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but in a word: amps.
Assuming you're talking about controlling a motor for a car, you're
talking about switching at least a couple hundred amps thousands of
times/second. Many systems are switching 500 or more amps.
When you just want to switch a few amps, some fifty-cent mosfets will do
the job. To switch the kind of current drawn by motors in cars, you need
a device called an IGBT (a type of transistor). These cost more than a
hundred bucks apiece and you probably would need several. On top of
this, when you switch a motor on and off you generate voltage spikes
which have to be "absorbed" and large diodes are used for this--these
are not fifty cent items, either.
All this current creates a lot of heat which means heatsinks which means
some fancy way of attaching the IGBTs (and maybe the diodes) to some
serious heat sink material. One of the Zilla controllers is water
cooled, just to give you some idea of what we're talking about here.
Then there's the parts to drive the IGBTs--these are not like "logic
level" mosfets that can be driven with a micro--you need quite a bit of
current to switch them, so now you're talking about driver circuitry
(and components) for the IGBTs.
And, of course, you have to connect this all together--you're not going
to do it with solder and one-ounce copper-clad PCBs :-) Those
connections have to withstand the current, the heat, be low resistance,
be reliable, and mechanically strong because you're attaching some
mighty big cables to those IGBTs. Take a look at the inside of a
household breaker panel to get some idea of what's required and remember
that those are typically designed for 200 amps (open one up in the
hardware store).
Then you have to package the whole thing up for the "hostile"
environment it's going to run in: wet, cold, dust, heat.
And the list goes on....not simple, not cheap, but doable. Again, I'm
talking about controllers for cars--things that draw less current are
easier. If you're really interested, you could subscribe to the evtech
mailing list at www.evtech.org. There's a guy on that list that's going
through the process of designing/building one now.
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everyone,
I was hoping for an update on the group order of Lee's
BMS. last I read, there is an order planned in less
than two months and I didnt want to miss the boat. I
have some extra cash from tax returns so I'd like to
send my deposite before some bill collector takes it.
Also while Im mailing the list; I am looking for a
capacitor bank to deal with the inductive kickback of
my re-gen. does anyone have a suggestion??
Thank you,
Brian B.
81' Bradley GTII
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--- Begin Message ---
An on road EV conversion of an ~2500-3000# finished curb weight car.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roy LeMeur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor Question
David Hankins wrote:
>I'm looking for opinions and info about the Briggs & Stratton Etek DC
>Electric Motor.
Many hundreds of us on the EVDL have used the Etek in very wide variety of
applications.
It would really help if you would indicate _your_ intended application.
We could give more accurate advice if we have more info to base it on.
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 4, 2007, at 4:35 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
The brushes need air to work properly. They do not work correctly in
any gas but air. I have run small brush motors in nitrogen, argon,
helium, and in vacuum. The brushes (and commutator) quickly fail if
they are not in air.
So could you suck the arc plasma off of the comm into a vacuum nozzle,
perhaps with some baffles in it to give the plasma some time to cool
off? This would also help cool the comm and brushes, and also remove
dust.
This would help eliminate any problems with blowing the arc away from
the comm and onto something delicate.
You'd want the nozzle to be made of something both heat-resistant and
non-conductive.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there differences in controlling a series wound and a PM motor. The
reason that I ask is that all the plans that I found are for PM motors.
David Hankins
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: History Lesson?
If you succesfully built a firecracker as a hobby experiment, would you be
willing to try to build your own stick of dynamite?
But, of course, the answer is yes. Search yahoo groups for open source motor
controller.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:56:15 -0700, "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> I saw a link here to a member web site that had the plans for a home made
> battery balancer. Is there an equivalent set of plans somewhere for a
> controller?
>
> Interesting articles (Well I found them interesting anyway):
>
> http://www.epanorama.net/links/motorcontrol.html
>
> http://www.newstandardinstitute.com/tech_training.cfm?ID=13
>
> http://www.newstandardinstitute.com/outline_CT2030.cfm
>
> http://www.spelektroniikka.fi/kuvat/triacd.pdf
>
> http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/app_note/AN2154.pdf
>
> http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/cntctcon.asp
>
>
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/AC%20Induction%20Motor%200098
> 4a.pdf
>
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/devicedoc/41233A.pdf
>
> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/promlit/pdf/brmotor-0503.pdf
>
>>From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design
> and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the
> wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive? Why
> haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and knowledgeable people in
> this
> group put something like this together?
>
> Thanks
>
> David Hankins
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
childreypa wrote:
If I want to charge a battery pack with an alternator running on
a drive motor, what voltage does this have to be done at?
Yes, you can use an ordinary car alternator to charge a high voltage
battery pack with some simple modifications. But, it is a "quick and
dirty" solution. Efficiency is low, and very high speeds are needed for
high voltages.
The basic rules for an alternator or generator are:
1. The voltage is set by the speed and field current (and diode
voltage rating for an alternator).
a. Voltage = K x RPM x FieldCurrent (where K is a constant for any
particular unit. Example for a normal 12v 60amp car alternator:
V = 0.005 x RPM x Ifield
12v = 0.004 x 1,000rpm x 3amps at low speed (idling engine)
12v = 0.004 x 10,000rpm x 0.3amps at maximum speed
(Note that an alternator's belt drive usually spins it twice
as fast as the engine).
b. The voltage regulator reduces the field current as ICE speed
increases to maintain the desired voltage.
c. If you defeat or replace the regulator, you can run higher
field currents to get higher voltages. But, you also have
to increase the rpm, because the field winding will burn out
if you run more than its normal current. For example:
24v = 0.004 x 2,000rpm x 3amps
48v = 0.004 x 4,000rpm x 3amps
120v = 0.004 x 10,000rpm x 3amps
You could regulate at 24v or 48v by reducing field current
at higher rpms. But while you could reach 120v, it would
require the maximum rpm and maximum field current; there's
no more room for regulation.
d. The diodes in an alternator are only rated for 50v or so.
Sometimes you get lucky, and they will withstand 100v or more.
But if you expect to actually *use* it at these higher voltages,
the diodes should be replaced with ones you *know* are good
enough. It is also wise to mount them externally, on their own
heatsink (the heatsinking available inside the alternator is
quite poor).
2. The current is limited by the wire size and amount of cooling,
(and diode current rating for an alternator).
a. If it has an external fan so that cooling is fixed, then
the current rating does not depend on voltage or speed.
A "60 amp" alternator can deliver 60 amps at any voltage
(12v or 120v); and at any speed (1,000 or 10,000 rpm).
b. If it has an internal fan, then the amount of cooling it
gets depends on its speed. Therefore, the current rating
depends on speed. A "60 amp" alternator can only deliver
15 amps at 1,000 rpm without overheating; but 60 amps at
10,000 rpm.
3. Since voltage and current limits are independently determined,
you can get an amazing amount of power out of a car alternator.
For example, 120v at 60 amps (if you can spin it fast enough)!
4. The efficiency of normal car alternators is very poor; only
60% or so. Larger truck and bus alternators are better (70%).
Industrial generators (and motors used as generators) are
higher yet; in the range of 80-90%. These are also wound for
higher voltages, which greatly simplifies the problem.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys are doing a really great job! 8.16?? Here come the 7's? And of
course a big thanks to A123! Would be great to see the bike on a car dyno.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
This is an interesting suggestion. It is simple in that you just tag into
the series/parallel contactor signal to run it and it would be relatively
simple to implement. Making the brush rigging rotatable instead of fixed
would likely be the more time-consuming part, but it would be
straight-forward to do.
The brushes need air to work properly. They do not work correctly in any
gas but air. I have run small brush motors in nitrogen, argon, helium, and
in vacuum. The brushes (and commutator) quickly fail if they are not in
air.
Thanks for the excellent idea.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's PM motor?
There are shunt and series DC motors.
--- David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are there differences in controlling a series wound
> and a PM motor. The
> reason that I ask is that all the plans that I found
> are for PM motors.
>
> David Hankins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: History Lesson?
>
>
> If you succesfully built a firecracker as a hobby
> experiment, would you be
> willing to try to build your own stick of dynamite?
>
> But, of course, the answer is yes. Search yahoo
> groups for open source motor
> controller.
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:56:15 -0700, "David Hankins"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I saw a link here to a member web site that had
> the plans for a home made
> > battery balancer. Is there an equivalent set of
> plans somewhere for a
> > controller?
> >
> > Interesting articles (Well I found them
> interesting anyway):
> >
> > http://www.epanorama.net/links/motorcontrol.html
> >
> >
>
http://www.newstandardinstitute.com/tech_training.cfm?ID=13
> >
> >
>
http://www.newstandardinstitute.com/outline_CT2030.cfm
> >
> > http://www.spelektroniikka.fi/kuvat/triacd.pdf
> >
> >
>
http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/app_note/AN2154.pdf
> >
> > http://www.aaroncake.net/circuits/cntctcon.asp
> >
> >
>
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/AC%20Induction%20Motor%200098
> > 4a.pdf
> >
> >
>
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/devicedoc/41233A.pdf
> >
> >
>
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/promlit/pdf/brmotor-0503.pdf
> >
> >>From what I've read so far it looks relatively
> straight forward to design
> > and build a controller (a little knowledge can be
> a dangerous thing in the
> > wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes
> them so expensive? Why
> > haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and
> knowledgeable people in
> > this
> > group put something like this together?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > David Hankins
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
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Frank John wrote:
Lee, this is brilliant. How do I understand how much current might be
generated and how to size components?
Look at the motor's nameplate. If it draws 10 amps as a motor, it will
generate (about) 10 amps as a generator.
Are the motor leads simply connected to battery via some type of
contactor?
No; you need a bridge rectifier to convert the AC from the motor into DC
to charge the batteries.
Also, you need enough big AC-rated motor "run" capacitors so the
induction motor sees a 0.8 power factor. The amount of capacitance
depends on the motor and load current, and so will have to be determined
experimentally. For a 120vac motor, it typically takes 10uf-50uf per
horsepower of motor rating.
Finally, an induction generator won't start generating unless there is
at least a little residual magnetism in the core. If there isn't, you
need to momentarily put a pulse of current through one of its windings
to provide this "starting" magnetism. Once started, it sustains itself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 14:16 -0400, David Roden wrote:
> On 3 Apr 2007 at 9:49, Rich Long wrote:
>
> > But there is always this same stray which is
> > around .05-.10v higher than the norm. ... Does this mean anything?
>
> Might be at a different temperature. Or it could be that the electrolyte is
> a bit more concentrated in that battery. Is the manufacture date on that
> battery the same as the rest of them?
Due to it's location, it should be at the same temperature. I specified
and received batteries that all had the same manufacture date. The
electrolyte concentration makes me wonder. Is the concentration
affected by watering the batteries? When a person does an equalization
charge and the higher voltage batteries vent while the laggards catch
up, do the higher batteries end up being even stronger?
Rich
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all the plans that I found are for PM motors.
Popular with the RC crowd. I think they refer to them as "brushless
DC". Try and locate a big PM motor for EV use. What's the price if
the suitable motor even exists?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
What's PM motor?
Permanent Magnet.
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On flat level ground( all energy into motion (-rolling and wind losses)
, downhill(motion without input in energy), or an incline up to n
degrees(Using energy just to keep from having negative motion), no
question, rolling is more efficient. I forgot what angle n is but when
the going gets steep, walking starts to win out.
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David Hankins wrote:
From what I've read so far it looks relatively straightforward to
design and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous
thing in the wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so
expensive?
This is a little like saying all it takes to write a best-seller is a
pad of paper and a pen... or that all it takes to paint a masterpiece is
a piece of canvas and some paint...
When you look at a controller, you're seeing the parts. You can list
them out and look them up, and (not surprisingly) the total cost of the
parts is less than the cost of the controller.
What you can't see is the "art" -- the talent and experience that went
into designing it. You can't see the labor; the long hours spent making
and assembling all those parts. And you can't see the testing; all the
experiments that were tried and failed, the parts purchased that got
destroyed, or ultimately proved not good enough to be used.
> Why haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and knowledgeable
> people in this group put something like this together?
To be rather blunt... why should they? It's a lot of work, with little
or no reward.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Most Paintball rigs have switched to compressed air. 3500 or 5000psi
from a scuba set up. We fill from a scuba tank between games.
CO2 comes out so cold that it causes problems when used rapidly. Ice,
shrunk metal seizing. Hit a hot motor with CO2 a few times and I think
you will be sending it back to Jim in short order.
Use Scuba Air. It is clean and dry and doesn't get too cold to fast. Let
it run from throttle on to someone closing the valve afterwards. Letting
the heat build then quenching is asking for trouble. Besides, The
difference in temp determines the heat transfer rate, Keeping air
flowing earlier allows greater transfer earlier and keeps it from
getting out of hand as easy. kindof a pukert effect
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Hey what about an oil-filled commutator area? That would be pretty
awesome, zero arcing and provides plenty of cooling. Of course the whole
thing couldn't be oil filled because the rotor would have a huge fluid
drag, so it'd need a separator with an oil seal.
Would a brush even make a reliable, low resistance connection with a
layer of oil in there?
Danny
Roy LeMeur wrote:
How about flooding the comm area with inert gas under pressure during
the run.
Like a modified paintball gun with replaceable cartridges.
Would also provide motor cooling
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference
today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
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On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:48 PM, mike golub wrote:
What's PM motor?
There are shunt and series DC motors.
There are shunt, series, sep-ex, and PM DC motors.
A shunt motor has the field connected in parallel to the armature.
These motors try to run the same rpm at any voltage. They have been
used in EVs, often by using them as a sep-ex motor.
Series motors are what is most commonly used in EV conversions. The
field is connected in series with the armature windings. The motor will
quickly over-rev and explode if you connect it to more than a fraction
of its nameplate voltage with no load (the motors commonly used in EVs
are good for around 24 volts no load - much more than that without a
load and they may over-rev.) The advantage is low rpm torque - series
motors excel at providing low speed torque. Most of the available EV
controllers are built for series wound motors.
Sep-ex motors are a lot like shunt motors except that they are designed
to have the field and armature controlled separately. Maximum field
voltage causes the motor to run at the minimum rpm. The field is
weakened to increase the motor rpm. This type of motor is one of the
best options for regen with a DC motor. Some shunt motors can be used
as sep-ex motors (the windings are similar.)
PM motors don't have a powered field; the field is provided by
permanent magnets. These motors tend toward a target rpm based on the
armature voltage (motor voltage, since there is only an armature to
power.) If the rpms drop the amps increase quickly to try to increase
the rpm back to the target. The more efficient a PM motor is the
quicker the amps increase as the rpms drops for a given voltage.
Oh - there is the homopolar DC motor too. To my knowledge there are no
EV sized motors of this type but it is the original electric motor
(Faraday motor.)
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
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>
> Good luck-
>
Thanks...
Another side question...what performance did you get with that
controller?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
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A number of sites have
walking kits. From there it's mostly a matter of scaling things up a bit.
Fortunately, being attached to the cart, this doesn't have to balance
itself, as do most 2 legged walking kits. That's one reason most kits are >
2 legs.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
> HI- The blueprints are likely inside of Bob Schneveis' head.
> You might not want to go there. FT.
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Date: 4/2/2007 7:09:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
> >
> > Say what you want but EVery time I see the video or
> > see this thread I think "I want one" 8^)
> > They have small local parades here and stuff that I
> > think that thing would be a huge hit in. Very unique
> > and fun!
> > I can personally see myself driving it to work in my
> > little Spartan suit and spear accessories 8^o
> >
> > Who knows where to get blueprints 8^)
> >
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
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I think it depends on the terrain. With smooth terrain (like most roads)
rolling is far more efficient.
on rough terrain, walking might have an advantage, though I'd think you'd
loose any advantage if you are pulling a rolling cart
> Well actually a person riding a bike is more efficent than a person
> walking,
> but for a car compared to a person i don't think so.
>
>>From: "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: walking more efficient than rolling ? .. was Re: Bob Schneveis'
>>Walking Electric Chariot
>>Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:01:12 +0530
>>
>>with my merit ranking in high school and science
>>background, i too feel a bit odd when the professor
>>says that walking is more efficient than wheels ..
>>
>>especially since he has been involved personally in
>>the mechanics of human motion in his job, i tend to
>>take his pronouncement rather seriously ..
>>
>>with the kind of ev he has made, as shown in the same
>>video, verification of this concept may help
>>
>>peekay
>>
>>(personally i still don't feel that walking robot is
>>more efficient than rotating wheel drive)
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 6:03 AM
>>Subject: Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
>>
>>
>> > No way, peekay... "walking" ain't more efficient than rotary. HP is
>> no
>> > comparison without work x (over) time/distance.
>> >
>> > Walking is "recipocal", like any piston, driven by steam, or gasoline
>> > or diseasal...
>> >
>> > Stop and go is NFG, compared to rotary.
>> >
>> > *Spun* by magnets and electrons? Rules. No contest.
>> >
>> > ps... IMHE (in my humble experience) 2/5 HP pushes me to 20kph. That
>> > electric riskshaw looks like it'd take me all day long... TGT...
>> that's
>> > "to get there"... the important part of any commute :)
>> >
>> > tks again
>> > Lock
>> > human-electric hybrid
>> > Toronto
>> >
>> > --- peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > walking motion is more efficient than wheels .. says this
>> > > professor .. his electric rickshaw uses a 5 lb motor and
>> > > pulls 2 people easily
>> > >
>> > > does he have a website/email ?
>> > >
>> > > ..peekay
>> > >
>> > > (strange coincidence .. his rickshaw looks almost exactly
>> > > like the rickshaws here in calcutta, india where i am presently
>> > > located !)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > To: <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 1:25 AM
>> > > Subject: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > I know this has been mentioned on this list before and I have
>> > > mentioned
>> > > Bob
>> > > > from time to time with quotes of his. This is a great video from
>> > > You Tube
>> > > > that I think is a must see.
>> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45ZquJIolvY
>> > > >
>> > > > Roderick Wilde
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > Do You Yahoo!?
>> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.24/742 - Release Date:
>>4/1/2007
>>8:49 PM
>> >
>> >
>>
>
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>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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