EV Digest 6633
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Motor Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: axial winding in motor is a better design ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: KillaCycle Update
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Miles Automotive $30 000 sedan
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) unsubscribe, plus apologies
by "jeanedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Anybody have schematic for an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to work
well?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Anybody have schematic for an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to work
well?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) US Electricar group Deleted
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) transmission in S10
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Pack Balance?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pack Balance?
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: transmission in S10
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Pack Balance?- VRLA vs floodies
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: OverVoltage
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) controller
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor recommendations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) " Spam arrest " ! is it a genuine response to an email I sent to evlist ?
by "jeanedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: controller - OSMC link
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) WILL HAVE BASIC CLAMPERS FOR SALE WAS Re: Anybody have schematic for
an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to work well?
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Need Controller suggestion for Motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: OverVoltage
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Not a good choice then, unless you are planning on hooking 3 or 4 of them
together.
> An on road EV conversion of an ~2500-3000# finished curb weight car.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy LeMeur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 1:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Motor Question
>
>
> David Hankins wrote:
>>I'm looking for opinions and info about the Briggs & Stratton Etek DC
>>Electric Motor.
>
> Many hundreds of us on the EVDL have used the Etek in very wide variety of
> applications.
>
> It would really help if you would indicate _your_ intended application.
>
> We could give more accurate advice if we have more info to base it on.
> ~~~~~~
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
> http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lots of motors use radial flux designs. The Etek, PMG, etc.
It has some efficiency advantages. It's a little easier to build tighter
airgaps. With radial flux, centrifugal force causes the rotor to expand
and you need to account for this in your airgap.
It also easier to mount magnets on both sides of the rotor coils.
But, iIt also has dissavantages. In order to increase torque, you
generally need to increase diameter, which makes centrifugal force more of
a problem.
With radial flux motors, you can increase torque by simply making them
longer.
Of course with axle-flux motors, you can stack rotors/magnets on the same
shaft, but it does make construction a bit more difficult.
> in this document :
> http://www.tifac.org.in/news/electric_vehicles/presentations/Shubangi%20Chip
> lonkar.pdf
> page 15 shows the design that bajaj auto intends to
> use in its electric 3 wheeler
>
> the motor is stated to be 'different' in that the windings are axial
> and have been stated to be better performing
>
> are there other such or similar or axial wound DC or AC motors
> available in the market ? costs are enormously unviable ?
>
> or are these just fancy products ? (the biggest scooter maker
> would not put their bucks in this product if it was not commercially
> viable)
>
> ..peekay
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:21 PM 4/04/07 -0700, Andrew Kane wrote:
So Mssrs. Massey and Husted are proposing the injection of inert gasses
across the commutator to *prevent* an arc? Hmmm....
lol OK, I'm ignorant and that would probably work. But when I read it my
first thought was "inert-gas welder! oh crap!"
G'day Andrew, and All
Not really like related to inert gas welder - MIG uses it just for
shielding (except maybe partly when spray-arcing). TIG uses both for
shielding and for arc plasma current flow.
This is mostly from theory, and as we know, in theory there is no
difference between theory and practice, where in practice the difference
is......
However:
Under a brush we have essentially DC TIG happening - across a very small
gap. Once clear of the brush the motion of the commutator drags air
molecules with it, following someones law of surfaces in motion in a gas,
plus there must be air molecules dragged right through under the brush hard
against the comm faces, and certainly in the free space in the comm slots.
Ideally the brushes sit on a spot where there is no voltage difference
between adjacent comm bars. As the current and load demands on the motor
vary, the null point (point of no voltage difference) varies, the trick is
getting a sweet spot that under high loads is about right, under light
loads is OK.
If things are not ideal, as the comm bar comes out from under the brush
there is enough voltage difference between the bars to sustain the arc
(that is normally just from the brush to the face of the comm bars) between
the bars. If the arc is able to be sustained it will ignite the next comm
slot, then the next, etc., until the arc reaches the next brush, so it is
then going brush-to-brush in superheated air that is also probably
entraining copper atoms and generally getting everything very hot (NOW we
are just like TIG welding!).
I'd guess that under "normal" racing power levels that the current flow
under the brush starts to carry from the sides of the comm bars in the
slots, filling the slot with very hot and ionised air molecules. Jim may be
able to tell us if there is any signs of that when he gets a look into the
siamese 8" from WZ - I'd expect that it would round off the slot edges if
it has been doing that.
By advancing to the point just before the null point, the bars that have
just come out from under the brush have no voltage gradient, and so no
reason to sustain an arc. However if there are enough highly-excited and
very hot air molecules in the slot, then they may re-ignite the arc as the
voltage between the bars starts to rise. If they can be gas quenched,
either by the gas being cold or by blowing the molecules out of the slot
(or at least enough of them to dilutr it enough to suppress the arc
ignition) then the power levels under the brush can be raised significanty
before the arc can sustain through the supression system and carry around
the comm. An inert gas only helps to reduce any oxidization that may be
happening, so dry air may be all that is needed. These events are so rare,
and expensive, that it would probably take a long time before meaningful
data on air vs CO2 vs N2 could even begin to be debated.
The practicalities of installing such a system and the level of performance
gain that may be available from using it would also need to be determined.
Jim may be able to turn an adaptor ring to use the CE plate from a larger
motor on a smaller motor (since he has "spare"
motors laid around), i.e. an 8" motor CE housing adapted onto a 6.7" motor
with the 6.7" brush gear in it should give an extra over 1/2" of space
around the brushes, possibly more depth behind the brush ring to mount an
adjustable brush gear system. The extra area would give "bags" of space for
the brush interconnection bars (lets' not talk about space for those
bars...) and leave room for the gas nozzles and tubing.
Hey Jim, have you looked at using a bigger diameter CE housing to get more
room?
Over to GMBitW to respond with the "in practice".
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think most of you read ABG anyway but here goes:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/category/miles-automotive/
In short, Miles Automotive is promising to bring a $30K electric sedan on
market in the 2008. Its a Chinese made Qingyuan Electric production,
converted from a Hafei Auto body ( if those names tell you anything )
Lithium batts, shooting for a 150 mile range and 80mph top speed.
They are showing the prototype at AFVI Show, its unclear whether its a working
electric version. Setting up dealership network and hoping to have around
hundred dealers in 2008
what do you say ? vaporware or real thing ? mind you, i would believe that
chinese can produce a lithium-powered car at this price point, judging by how
cheap the masses of lithium-powered ebikes are there.
as to the the build quality...
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some time ago you kindly sent me advice how to unsubscribe. Before I got round
to using your instructions, I had a P.C. crash. Post re-installation, I cannot
find the Unsubscribe instructions. I apologise. Please could you send those
instructions again. Many thanks. Ed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mine will do that. When I left out the 1meg resistor it made the
clamper blink faster the more it tried to regulate. That made it easier
to see in a group of 50 of them that I had mounted. Otherwise the led
just stays on longer each time it blinks to do the regulating.
This schematic and parts values were based on a single sided board with
surface mount parts.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Clamper.pdf
Mike
--- robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anybody have schematic for an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to
> work well?
>
> Someone said that they built a voltage regulator that handled 5A or
> more, for only $8 in parts, can be built from a proto board. Does
> anybody have the plans for this?
>
> The only caveat was that a heat sink would have to put on top of one
> of the parts, I'm informed.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mine will do that. It's the only one around called a clamper.
When I left out the 1meg resistor it made the clamper blink faster the
more it tried to regulate. That made it easier to see in a group of 50
of them that I had mounted. Otherwise the led just stays on longer each
time it blinks to do the regulating.
This schematic and parts values were based on a single sided board with
surface mount parts.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Clamper.pdf
Mike
--- robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anybody have schematic for an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to
> work well?
>
> Someone said that they built a voltage regulator that handled 5A or
> more, for only $8 in parts, can be built from a proto board. Does
> anybody have the plans for this?
>
> The only caveat was that a heat sink would have to put on top of one
> of the parts, I'm informed.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Another side question...what performance did you get with that
controller?
Performance? It's hard to say for sure, since the used batteries making
up the test pack are toast.
But you could look at it this way: the car is roughly 2x the weight of
the golf cart the controller came from. That gives you a frame of
reference (although the car *does* have gearing options the golf cart
didn't have).
Since the maiden voyage, I added 2 more junk batts to the string (for a
total of 48v). That gave me enough juice to out-race a 12 year-old on a
bicycle from a dead stop. And he was *trying* too - standing up on the
pedals! (Is this how Plasma Boy got started? Am I on a slippery slope
here?) To be completely honest, it was more of a "draw" up to about 30
km/h (20 mph), then he started getting winded (in both senses of the
word). Also, I'll admit it's possible he may not have known how to use
his gears. :D
Top speed I've seen: 47 km/h (about 29 mph) after approximately 400m,
*flat out*. The hamsters were shoveling electrons into the fire as fast
as they could (at least that's how I picture the inside workings of a
controller). And there might have been a very slight downhill slope
involved as well.
To sum up: at 48v, the 225a Curtis is barely adequate on mostly flat
side-streets for a driver with patience and not much following traffic.
If you find yourself facing an up hill grade of more than a couple of
percent, put on the blinker, hug the curb, and watch the rear view
mirror for the kid on the bike.
Some kind of controller bypass - something like the GE EV-1 1A bypass -
might be worth investigating, so you have smooth when you want it, and
power when you need it. I wouldn't dismiss a 100% contactor controller
set-up either.
cheers-
Darin
http://forkenswift.com
PS - my brother and I have decided to split on the cost of a welder, so
the battery racks will be finished soon. No more balancing floodies in
my lap!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About a month ago, the main yahoo group for US Electricar EV's was
deleted without cause, or notice to the participants, who had
contributed blood sweat, tears, and dollars to keeping these EV's on
the road. There were many thousands posts that were directly related to
troubleshooting and repairing these EV's. This group as I recall was
5-7 years old.
A second USElectricar group was started a year ago as the primary group
was so hard to join, due to an automated scripting function that the
owner had designed. So it sat stagnant. The owner has refused to ask
Yahoo to un-delete the group. Yahoo will also not intervene without the
owners consent. In about 3 weeks the groups archives will be purged
from Yahoo servers forever.
The original USElectricar EV group that was deleted is owned by Bruce
Parmenter. He posts here regularly. I think the EV community has come
together many times to keep vehicles from being crushed. Maybe they can
come together to keep these vehicles from rotting away as well, by
keeping the technological information flowing that prevents EV rust.
Anything that anyone can be done to convince Bruce to bring the old
group back, or even transfer ownership, will be doing these EV's a real
service.
Thanks,
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are using compensator oil, no problem.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
> Hey what about an oil-filled commutator area? That would be pretty
> awesome, zero arcing and provides plenty of cooling. Of course the whole
> thing couldn't be oil filled because the rotor would have a huge fluid
> drag, so it'd need a separator with an oil seal.
>
> Would a brush even make a reliable, low resistance connection with a
> layer of oil in there?
>
> Danny
>
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
> > How about flooding the comm area with inert gas under pressure during
> > the run.
> >
> > Like a modified paintball gun with replaceable cartridges.
> >
> > Would also provide motor cooling
> > ~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > Roy LeMeur
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference
> > today. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_APR07
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date: 4/4/2007
1:09 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Hmm,
Driving today, I realized, going over 25 mph in 2nd gear wasn't all that
bad for vibration or noise. However, I remember why I switch to 3rd at
that point and to 4th at 45 mph. (Because I run out of torque
(terminology?)
So, I can't accelerate any more past 25-30 mph if I don't shift up to 3rd
gear. (with my raptor 600, T-125's and ADC 9")
sound normal?
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
Without regulation you cannot equalize a pack for very long by just
overcharging it.
Here is a report on battery equalization that a university did.
http://energy.ece.uiuc.edu/Balog/images/intelec02.pdf
In general the NREL is a great source of real battery test data.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/publications.html
Mike
--- Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My pack consists of 20 6v flooded lead acid batteries. When I do a
> check to see if the batteries are staying balanced I find that 19
> look
> real close like +/- .01v. But there is always this same stray which
> is
> around .05-.10v higher than the norm. I was expecting to see one or
> two
> lag behind and would charge them up but I didn't expect to see one
> higher than all the rest. Does this mean anything?
>
> I've tried taking a 6v VW headlight and bleeding off the excess but
> it
> still reads high the next cycle I test. Note: I usually test in the
> morning after they've charged up overnight.
>
> Rich
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich,
Without regulation you cannot equalize a pack for very long by just
overcharging it.
Here is a report on battery equalization that a university did.
http://energy.ece.uiuc.edu/Balog/images/intelec02.pdf
In general the NREL is a great source of real battery test data.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/publications.html
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I realized, going over 25 mph in 2nd gear wasn't all that
> bad for vibration or noise.
More gear noise/whine than normal, but by the time you hit 25mph
it's about the same as the wind/tire noise. (at least in mine)
> I can't accelerate any more past 25-30 mph if I don't shift
> up to 3rd gear. (with my raptor 600, T-125's and ADC 9")
How many volts? With my 144V pack I can easily hit 50mph in 2nd,
and I get concerned about over-revving the motor at that point,
so I usually shift to 3rd at 45mph.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike-
The report that you provided a link for applies to sealed ( VRLA) batteries
:
"This paper
reviews battery behavior and performance related to the
equalization problem, in the context of vavle-regulated lead-acid
batteries. "
I think it is pretty well understood that sealed batteries cannot be
effectively balanced by equalization. That is why many VRLA battery users
use passive or active regulators.
Rich is using flooded batteries. These will generally respond well to
equalization - one of the advantages of using floodeds.
Phil
From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pack Balance?
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Rich,
Without regulation you cannot equalize a pack for very long by just
overcharging it.
Here is a report on battery equalization that a university did.
http://energy.ece.uiuc.edu/Balog/images/intelec02.pdf
In general the NREL is a great source of real battery test data.
http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/publications.html
Mike
--- Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My pack consists of 20 6v flooded lead acid batteries. When I do a
> check to see if the batteries are staying balanced I find that 19
> look
> real close like +/- .01v. But there is always this same stray which
> is
> around .05-.10v higher than the norm. I was expecting to see one or
> two
> lag behind and would charge them up but I didn't expect to see one
> higher than all the rest. Does this mean anything?
>
> I've tried taking a 6v VW headlight and bleeding off the excess but
> it
> still reads high the next cycle I test. Note: I usually test in the
> morning after they've charged up overnight.
>
> Rich
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But, can I take a motor that is rated 36/48v and run
> it on a 120 system
Hey David
Yes, there are many car out there doing just that.
EVerything from 7" Prestolites to big honking GE's
like Forkenswift 8^)
Advancing the brush timing is a needed mod to prevent
brush arcing. Other than that the are lots of
examples at the EV photo album.
Happy hunting
hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
you got a link?
--- David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the info Steve.
>
> I'll checkout that list.
>
> The OSMC has a plan and a parts list for a do it
> yourself controller that
> uses Mosfets and is rated for 160 cont and 400 peak.
> I'm guessing that would
> not last to long hooked to an 8 or 9" motor.
>
> David Hankins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Peterson
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:36 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: History Lesson?
>
>
> On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 12:56 -0700, David Hankins
> wrote:
>
> > >From what I've read so far it looks relatively
> straight forward to design
> > and build a controller (a little knowledge can be
> a dangerous thing in the
> > wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes
> them so expensive?
>
> I'm far from the most qualified to answer this, but
> in a word: amps.
>
> Assuming you're talking about controlling a motor
> for a car, you're
> talking about switching at least a couple hundred
> amps thousands of
> times/second. Many systems are switching 500 or more
> amps.
>
> When you just want to switch a few amps, some
> fifty-cent mosfets will do
> the job. To switch the kind of current drawn by
> motors in cars, you need
> a device called an IGBT (a type of transistor).
> These cost more than a
> hundred bucks apiece and you probably would need
> several. On top of
> this, when you switch a motor on and off you
> generate voltage spikes
> which have to be "absorbed" and large diodes are
> used for this--these
> are not fifty cent items, either.
>
> All this current creates a lot of heat which means
> heatsinks which means
> some fancy way of attaching the IGBTs (and maybe the
> diodes) to some
> serious heat sink material. One of the Zilla
> controllers is water
> cooled, just to give you some idea of what we're
> talking about here.
>
> Then there's the parts to drive the IGBTs--these are
> not like "logic
> level" mosfets that can be driven with a micro--you
> need quite a bit of
> current to switch them, so now you're talking about
> driver circuitry
> (and components) for the IGBTs.
>
> And, of course, you have to connect this all
> together--you're not going
> to do it with solder and one-ounce copper-clad PCBs
> :-) Those
> connections have to withstand the current, the heat,
> be low resistance,
> be reliable, and mechanically strong because you're
> attaching some
> mighty big cables to those IGBTs. Take a look at the
> inside of a
> household breaker panel to get some idea of what's
> required and remember
> that those are typically designed for 200 amps (open
> one up in the
> hardware store).
>
> Then you have to package the whole thing up for the
> "hostile"
> environment it's going to run in: wet, cold, dust,
> heat.
>
> And the list goes on....not simple, not cheap, but
> doable. Again, I'm
> talking about controllers for cars--things that draw
> less current are
> easier. If you're really interested, you could
> subscribe to the evtech
> mailing list at www.evtech.org. There's a guy on
> that list that's going
> through the process of designing/building one now.
>
> --Steve
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>relatively simple to implement. Making the brush rigging rotatable
>instead of fixed would likely be the more time-consuming part, but it
>would be straight-forward to do.
>
>The brushes need air to work properly. They do not work correctly in
>any gas but air. I have run small brush motors in nitrogen, argon,
>helium, and in vacuum. The brushes (and commutator) quickly fail if
>they are not in air.
Silicon brushes start to make sense at some point... :-)
There is a pretty low gas pressure on the moon, and if you make the
commutator big enough, any arcing or discharge should be reasonably
well controlled - but the motor designer would have to design
around the fact that there is no air there. On the moon, however,
there is no need for a vacuum seal or anything like that to maintain
a vacuum inside the motor - there isn't much of an atmosphere to
start with.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul childreypa wrote:
You mentioned building a contactor controller. I have looked as hard as
I can for information on building one. I found a little information, but
I really need a detailed schematic and walkthrough. A how to page would
be perfect but all I can find are some bits and pieces on the theory.
Everyone says they have built one or are going to, but I can't find much
good info. I would love some info on how you plan to build yours if
that's possible.
A contactor controller is just electrical wiring; not electronics. You
generally don't find detailed schematics, any more than you will find a
detailed schematic for your house wiring.
It's more likely that you will find wiring diagrams, which concentrate
on the physical location of parts and their terminals, wire colors,
sizes, etc. But since they are specific to one particular vehicle, they
may not help you understand how it works or to build one unless you use
the very same contactors, terminal blocks, motors, batteries, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
" Spam arrest " ! is it a genuine response to an email I sent to evlist ?
("Mark Dutko", sender)
I send this in case the "Spam Arrest" response is actually bogus
Many thanks in advance for your advice
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/
--- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you got a link?
> --- David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the info Steve.
> >
> > I'll checkout that list.
> >
> > The OSMC has a plan and a parts list for a do it
> > yourself controller that
> > uses Mosfets and is rated for 160 cont and 400
> peak.
> > I'm guessing that would
> > not last to long hooked to an 8 or 9" motor.
> >
> > David Hankins
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Peterson
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:36 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: History Lesson?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2007-04-04 at 12:56 -0700, David Hankins
> > wrote:
> >
> > > >From what I've read so far it looks relatively
> > straight forward to design
> > > and build a controller (a little knowledge can
> be
> > a dangerous thing in the
> > > wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes
> > them so expensive?
> >
> > I'm far from the most qualified to answer this,
> but
> > in a word: amps.
> >
> > Assuming you're talking about controlling a motor
> > for a car, you're
> > talking about switching at least a couple hundred
> > amps thousands of
> > times/second. Many systems are switching 500 or
> more
> > amps.
> >
> > When you just want to switch a few amps, some
> > fifty-cent mosfets will do
> > the job. To switch the kind of current drawn by
> > motors in cars, you need
> > a device called an IGBT (a type of transistor).
> > These cost more than a
> > hundred bucks apiece and you probably would need
> > several. On top of
> > this, when you switch a motor on and off you
> > generate voltage spikes
> > which have to be "absorbed" and large diodes are
> > used for this--these
> > are not fifty cent items, either.
> >
> > All this current creates a lot of heat which means
> > heatsinks which means
> > some fancy way of attaching the IGBTs (and maybe
> the
> > diodes) to some
> > serious heat sink material. One of the Zilla
> > controllers is water
> > cooled, just to give you some idea of what we're
> > talking about here.
> >
> > Then there's the parts to drive the IGBTs--these
> are
> > not like "logic
> > level" mosfets that can be driven with a
> micro--you
> > need quite a bit of
> > current to switch them, so now you're talking
> about
> > driver circuitry
> > (and components) for the IGBTs.
> >
> > And, of course, you have to connect this all
> > together--you're not going
> > to do it with solder and one-ounce copper-clad
> PCBs
> > :-) Those
> > connections have to withstand the current, the
> heat,
> > be low resistance,
> > be reliable, and mechanically strong because
> you're
> > attaching some
> > mighty big cables to those IGBTs. Take a look at
> the
> > inside of a
> > household breaker panel to get some idea of what's
> > required and remember
> > that those are typically designed for 200 amps
> (open
> > one up in the
> > hardware store).
> >
> > Then you have to package the whole thing up for
> the
> > "hostile"
> > environment it's going to run in: wet, cold, dust,
> > heat.
> >
> > And the list goes on....not simple, not cheap, but
> > doable. Again, I'm
> > talking about controllers for cars--things that
> draw
> > less current are
> > easier. If you're really interested, you could
> > subscribe to the evtech
> > mailing list at www.evtech.org. There's a guy on
> > that list that's going
> > through the process of designing/building one now.
>
> >
> > --Steve
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all your replies. We've just built basic, non-digital,
screwdriver-adjustable basic battery voltage regulators. Works, but:
- Parts cost came out to $100 for 6
- A fan will be likely be needed, as the ceramic resistor, on these basic
clampers, with a 20W 5K certamic resistor load, the ceramic resistor gets to
over 195F on the surface, when 1A is going into the circuit. (The ceramic
resistor receives less than 8V.) We'll try it with a 12V 25W lightbulb next.
- If anybody else needs them, I can have extra voltage regulators made made up.
Contact me off list. (I didn't hear back from Ed Ang on his VReg devices,
despite many attempts to email him, even through his customers, at least one of
which said they forwarded my email to Ang. I assume he's too busy to build
them.)
- The ceramic resistor (load) will be standing on a heat sink, after reading
the caution on Ed Ang's installation PDF (on his VReg clampers) to not push the
resistors down. I'm also inclined to make the components "quake proof" after
reading about the problems with vibration on the E-Max's controller and/or
chargers.
- IMHO, the Zivan battery charger doesn't detect battery State Of Charge
correctly, and was cooking one or more batteries in our gel/AGM battery string
even during the bulk charge phase.
- We're putting in 2 clampers/limiters per battery. One 2A unit didn't pull
down the voltage to the limit during the Zivan NG3's bulk charge phase.
Cheers,
Rob Matthies
Cheers,
Bob
Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mine will do that. It's the only one
around called a clamper.
When I left out the 1meg resistor it made the clamper blink faster the
more it tried to regulate. That made it easier to see in a group of 50
of them that I had mounted. Otherwise the led just stays on longer each
time it blinks to do the regulating.
This schematic and parts values were based on a single sided board with
surface mount parts.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Clamper.pdf
Mike
--- robert mat wrote:
> Anybody have schematic for an $8 voltage clamper/limiter, said to
> work well?
>
> Someone said that they built a voltage regulator that handled 5A or
> more, for only $8 in parts, can be built from a proto board. Does
> anybody have the plans for this?
>
> The only caveat was that a heat sink would have to put on top of one
> of the parts, I'm informed.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
>
>
The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. This may be one solution.
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles:
http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Barkley wrote:
I'm attempting to determine what electronic controller would be good to
use with the aircraft starter/generator that I have mounted in my 94'
> Mitsubishi Eclipse. The following link will show you how it is wired
in order to use it as a motor. It's 10hp continuous @ 36vdc, up to
30hp continuous @ 96vdc. I'm attempting to use it at 72vdc, as the
car runs 25mph with just 24vdc directly applied to the motor, in 3rd
gear. I'm shooting for around 60mph.
If it truly is a starter/generator, then it will have three sets of
windings: the armature (A1 and A2), the series field (S1 and S2), and
the shunt field (F1 and F2).
The aircraft starter/generators I've seen had three large terminals and
two small ones. The armature and series field were internally connected,
and brought out to one big stud; so they were A1, A2+S1, and S2. The
shunt field was brought out to the two small terminals, but one was
internally connected to A1.
To run it as a series motor, you connect power to A1 and S2. This would
work with any normal series motor controller (Auburn, Curtis, DCP, GE,
Zapi, Zilla, etc.). To get regen or run it as a shunt motor, you connect
power to A1 and A2+S1, leave S2 unconnected, and apply field power
through a rheostat to control motor speed or regen current.
Motor wiring diagram: http://www.surpluscenter.com/Wire/W6-936.jpg
This diagram makes it look like a straight generator (no series field).
Note that even the generators have a weak series field, but it is
permanently wired in series with the armature, and only there to
stabilize the generated voltage and reduce brush arcing (they are
compensating windings, not a true series field).
I have some documentation that suggests it is a shunt motor, other
that says series, it's looks like a sepex but the other terminal that
looks like a field terminal is never used. I do know that if a
50ohm/150watt rheostat is used instead of the short jumper shown in
the diagram, it controls the amount of torque the motor puts out.
I've not as of yet found an internal wiring schematic, to truly know
how it's wired. I'm hoping someone out in the group is familiar,
and could suggest a controller
See above for how it's wired inside. It's not hard to take it apart and
look to see what windings it has, and how they are connected to the
terminals.
If you want to use it as a shunt or sepex, you can use a Sevcon
controller. They make them up to 72v, and it will control the series
field to get reversing and regenerative braking. Be sure to disconnect
the internal connection between the shunt field and A1!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Many motors are dual voltage rated. Most common is the induction motor for
115/230 volts AC or 230/460. These require different wiring connections and
usually have a diagram inside the conduit box showing this.
The 36/48 volt motors you mention are a bit different. These are DC motors
typically designed for forklift trucks where the truck is sold without the
battery and the customer can select either a 36 or 48 volt battery. All the
electrical equipment in the truck is capable of operating at either 36 or 48
volts. At 48 volts, motor speeds are higher, about 1/3, so the travel and lift
speeds are quicker. Depends on the sit up at the customer like the chaging
systems he has and also the intended duty for the vehicles, like speeds the
location can tolerate.
You also see similar dual voltage rating on some DC motor controllers, like
24/36 or 36/48.
Jeff
David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I see motors that are rated for dual voltages (...36/48v).
Why the dual volts?
Were would you use them and how would you implement the different voltages?
<snip>
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/5/07, Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>relatively simple to implement. Making the brush rigging rotatable
>instead of fixed would likely be the more time-consuming part, but it
>would be straight-forward to do.
>
>The brushes need air to work properly. They do not work correctly in
>any gas but air. I have run small brush motors in nitrogen, argon,
>helium, and in vacuum. The brushes (and commutator) quickly fail if
>they are not in air.
Silicon brushes start to make sense at some point... :-)
There is a pretty low gas pressure on the moon, and if you make the
commutator big enough, any arcing or discharge should be reasonably
well controlled - but the motor designer would have to design
around the fact that there is no air there. On the moon, however,
there is no need for a vacuum seal or anything like that to maintain
a vacuum inside the motor - there isn't much of an atmosphere to
start with.
The Lunar Rover had 36V series wound DC motors, with a PWM controller.
See page 5 of the handbook:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/LRV_OpsNAS8-25145Pt1.pdf
It says that the traction drive is hermetically sealed and pressurised
to 7.5PSI for "improved brush lubrication".
So apparently they did not attempt to make the brushed motor work in a
vacuum. I don't know what the Russian rover was like. Maybe they
used a brushless motor, like the old joke about NASA spending millions
to develop a high-tech pen that worked in zero-G, whilst the Soviets
used a pencil...
Interesting EV!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what about an oil-filled commutator area?...
How about flooding the comm area with inert gas...
> how about compressed air?...
> what about vacuum?...
Lots of alternatives are possible, folks. But the standard copper
commutator / carbon brush setup has had 100+ years of being optimized to
work the best in plain old air.
If you change to other materials (vacuum, other gases, oil, etc.) then
you will have to re-open the quest for optimum materials again.
Something other than copper and carbon are likely to come out on top.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
