EV Digest 6646
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Converter Needed in san Francisco
by Chris Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: History Lesson?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT: SVO, was: EV APU (Biodiesel) emissions & FE
by John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Getting Highschools started in EV conversions
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Sherry Boschert you go girl. A whole lotta time on Science Friday.
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EVLN(Gizmo goes BugE)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-Meter Percent Charge Formula?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: History Lesson?
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by rod dilkes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Intro
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Intro
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) a wierd hybrid design .. or it is not wierd
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Motor Question < David Hankins
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Intro
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: a wierd hybrid design .. or it is not wierd
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Armstrong at the Santa Rosa California Junior
College has an alternative fuel vehicle conversion
class that includes EVs, and he is working on staffing
a dedicated EV conversion class. It's not the same as
paying someone, but you'd get alot of help. Contact
me if you are interested.
Chris Jones
www.nbeaa.org
> I just received this request this morning. Anyone
know of someone in
this
> are that could do this?
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
>
>
> Name (Company Name): Michael Ford
>
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Hi I live in the San Francisco area and was
wondering if you knew
any
> mechanics that could do an electric conversion for
me.
>
> Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If a person wanted to attempt to get a few communities involved, IE: Rival
Highschools in a competition, are there any grants or financial support they
could turn to? I'm seeing several Highschools like the one below that get the
community involved.
http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread the EV word around a
person's local community? Has anyone on the list, ever gotten involved with a
Highschool program on building EV's, and having competions with the rival
Highschools in the area? I think the local media would eat this sort of thing
up, and get it out on the air & in print.
Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to comment, maybe just
private email me.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try <http://www.belktronix.com/>.
On Apr 7, 2007, at 12:10 PM, David Hankins wrote:
Hello Martin
That link is dead. It says server can't be found.
Thanks
David Hankins
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Winlow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: History Lesson?
From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to
design
and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in
the
wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive? Why
haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and knowledgeable people
in this
group put something like this together?
Thanks
David Hankins
David,
Have a look at www.belktronics.com for a cheap EV conversion
controller (and
associated gubbins).
Regards, Martin Winlow
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My high school (Ballard High, Seattle, WA) had an EV program.
Basically the metal shop class from the involved school built a
chassis from scratch. The cars were one person 24V setup to run a one
hour endurance race. The most laps in hour hour won the race.
We did ok in our district. We went down to Portland International
Raceway for the season ender. Due to a mistake in the final
preparation we lost most of our battery power in the last 15 minutes
of the race. We still finished under own own power, and took 16th out
of a field of 60.
Over half the cars ended the race by pulling off the track after
their batteries went dead.
It was a fun learning experience.
John Boy
On Apr 7, 2007, at 9:37 PM, Michael Barkley wrote:
If a person wanted to attempt to get a few communities involved,
IE: Rival Highschools in a competition, are there any grants or
financial support they could turn to? I'm seeing several
Highschools like the one below that get the community involved.
http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread the EV word
around a person's local community? Has anyone on the list, ever
gotten involved with a Highschool program on building EV's, and
having competions with the rival Highschools in the area? I think
the local media would eat this sort of thing up, and get it out on
the air & in print.
Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to comment,
maybe just private email me.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somewhere in the report it talk specifically about NOx. It seems that
NOx levels varied by the engine used and the duty cycle of the
engine. Some had lower levels with Bio and some had higher.
Also, as the cetane level goes up the NOx levels went down.
If you could figure out why some engines had lower NOx and could
design for it then you could easily show an improvement in all
categories.
Also the report states that you get about a 2% increase in fuel
consumption, yet some people report getting better fuel milage with
Bio than Petro diesel. Why? I dunno.
John Boy
On Apr 7, 2007, at 7:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As green as electricity, no.
Here is a study of Biodiesel emissions published by the EPA in 2002:
http://www.epa.gov/OMS/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf
Here is a pro-Bio primer on Biodiesel: http://www.biodiesel.org.au/
biodieselfacts.htm
I can't seem to find anything that makes an argument against Bio use
in cars and trucks outside of extremely cold weather.
Thanks for that link - any similar studies using unaltered
vegetable oil
(WVO/SVO) like I feed my old 300SD? Would love to see a plug-in
hybrid that
would take *any* oil-type fuel...but how to address that increase
in NOx?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this could be any more ON topic. I've been thinking of ideas to
get our AlaskaEVA and the Alaska IEEE members involved in a cooperation to put
on such an EVent. The one exception is that it not be limited to highschool
folks. Maybe have a highschool class. But in all honesty I think many of the
highschool teams could beat just about anyone out there not in highschool.
This would truly be an entire community involvement program. There are a
couple other organizations that I could pull in to help sponsor an award and
provide volunteers to run the EVent. But in answer to Michael Barkley's
question, yes I think this is an excellent way to get the word out. Its the
ultimate grass roots effort. No doubt there will be others that will chime in
who already participate in EVents like this.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Saturday, April 7, 2007 9:12 pm
Subject: Re: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
To: [email protected]
> My high school (Ballard High, Seattle, WA) had an EV program.
>
> Basically the metal shop class from the involved school built a
> chassis from scratch. The cars were one person 24V setup to run a
> one
> hour endurance race. The most laps in hour hour won the race.
>
> We did ok in our district. We went down to Portland International
> Raceway for the season ender. Due to a mistake in the final
> preparation we lost most of our battery power in the last 15
> minutes
> of the race. We still finished under own own power, and took 16th
> out
> of a field of 60.
>
> Over half the cars ended the race by pulling off the track after
> their batteries went dead.
>
> It was a fun learning experience.
>
> John Boy
>
> On Apr 7, 2007, at 9:37 PM, Michael Barkley wrote:
>
> > If a person wanted to attempt to get a few communities involved,
>
> > IE: Rival Highschools in a competition, are there any grants or
> > financial support they could turn to? I'm seeing several
> > Highschools like the one below that get the community involved.
> >
> > http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
> >
> > Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread the EV
> word
> > around a person's local community? Has anyone on the list, ever
>
> > gotten involved with a Highschool program on building EV's, and
> > having competions with the rival Highschools in the area? I
> think
> > the local media would eat this sort of thing up, and get it out
> on
> > the air & in print.
> >
> > Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to comment,
> > maybe just private email me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Barkley
> >
> > "You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
> >
> > www.texomaev.com
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What an excellent piece!!
I will be forwarding this to a lot of people.
I like the dynamite question...14 sticks of dynamite in a gallon of gas :-O
And of course Sherry didn't let GM slide on the timing of their planned rollout
of the Volt.
I'm wondering if anyone else was sick to listen to the first part with GM
discussing their Volt.
Too bad the GM folks weren't taking questions :-O
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Nick Austin <>
Date: Saturday, April 7, 2007 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: Sherry Boschert you go girl. A whole lotta time on Science Friday.
To: [email protected]
> On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 02:20:34PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > The second hour of Science Friday was devoted to plugin
> vehicles, the Auto X-prize & the Chevy Volt.
> <..snip..>
>
> > This should be available on the web as they have an
> archeive/podcast......
> http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2007/Apr/hour2_040607.html
>
> Archived Audio:
>
> GM's Chevy Volt
> http://media.libsyn.com/media/sciencefriday/scifri-2007040623.mp3
>
> green cars
> http://media.libsyn.com/media/sciencefriday/scifri-2007040624.mp3
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They got his website wrong on the end of the article.
Its http://blueskydsn.com/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of bruce parmenter
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 12:09 PM
> To: evlist
> Subject: EVLN(Gizmo goes BugE)
>
>
> EVLN(Gizmo goes BugE)
<snip a bit>
>
> Murphy can be contacted through his Website,
> www.blueskydysn.com.
>
> Copyright 2005-2007 The Creswell Chronicle
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe they use a straight Peukert's equation. I know two of the
battery configuration data inputs are the battery's Peukert's number and
Peukert's capacity.
> Does anyone happen to know what formual the E-Meter/Link 10
> calculates the percentage charge? It isn't part of the data stream
> output from the serial port, but I have to assume that it is based on
> the data that is output.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't legally
use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
propane converter (which you are not).
Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's unlikely
that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design, test,
and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling a
trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
conversion losses.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, Sorry...
It should be www.belktronix.com
Regards, MW
>Hello Martin
>That link is dead. It says server can't be found.
>Thanks
>David Hankins
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's workable, but is it practical?
Some questions:
What is your expected daily range?
Are you planning on constantly running the generator?
Will it also have batteries and just use the generator to extend the range?
If you are constantly running the engine, have you considered connecting
it directly to the wheels and thus bypass the losses associated with
converting the mechanical power to electricity and then back to
mechanical power?
> I've been toying with the idea of running one based on a small
> constant speed diesel running on B100.
>
> I am in the process of researching small 1 or 2 cylinder compact
> diesels that can be modified to run like Bruce Crower's experimental
> engine. The idea would to then put that engine under the hood of a
> car running a generator to power an electric motor.
>
> Bruce's motor: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
> 20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE
>
> Am I looney for thinking this is a workable option?
>
> John Boy
>
>
> On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:56 AM, John Fisher wrote:
>
>> Good for you David! And thanks for the research.
>>
>> Here's where your assumptions don't apply ( to my project):
>>
>> I am assuming a pluggable hybrid.
>> I am not burning gasoline in an unmodified genset.
>> I am not thinking of running the genset at full load 100% of the time.
>> I am aimed at a car lighter and slower than a OEM gas vehicle. It
>> might even have better aero one day.
>> You didn't account for the reduced power-plant emissions of reduced
>> electrical use ( granted, perhaps negligible in non-coal or nuclear
>> states)
>> Gensets might be lighter than lead batteries, and no more difficult
>> to package. Certain the genset is not heavier anyway...
>>
>> Further, you yourself suggested using a clean auto engine to make a
>> home-built genset, and re-tuning it to run at a constant low speed.
>> I might opt for a smaller MC engine with catalytic converter, since
>> we don't have micro-cars in our Super-sized country.
>>
>> So I need to do some calcs based on the following assumptions:
>>
>> 1) genset starts running after batts drop to some adjustable level,
>> say 40% of usable charge to start with.
>> 2) genset runs at a high enough KW to limp home, but not maintain
>> 30 mph. 5kw is what I was thinking...
>>
>> Its a complicated prediction, so with my daily loop of 25 miles and
>> no re-charging en route, I'll start by guesstimating the genset
>> runs 50% of the time, subject to real-world experience. If we could
>> scrounge up a free circuit at work, I might even be able to do
>> without the genset altogether most days. But I think we are maxed.
>> So at genset 50% of the time the car returns home needing a full
>> recharge.
>>
>> All guesses to be sure. caveat emptor!
>>
>> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
>> research shows that it gives no advantage in greenhouse gases, but
>> some large but as yet unknown-to-me improvement in smog. I could
>> always get a small engine catalytic converter for it, assuming the
>> chemistry is OK with propane. Alas, H2 storage is probably a
>> showstopper for now. Supply and storage are just too darn
>> expensive, even for the little motor. Interestingly, a propane
>> genset will probably convert to H2 or a number of other fuel gases
>> with ease, but thats OT too.
>>
>> Others might want to look at bio-fuels in diesel gensets. That just
>> doesn't fit my profile right now for a bunch of OT reasons.
>>
>> more later
>>
>> John Fisher
>>
>>
>>
>> David Roden wrote:
>>> I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a
>>> recent question or comment about genset APUs. So I thought that I
>>> would amend that response and provide some possibly useful
>>> information. Rather than repeating what's available in the
>>> archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some
>>> data to the discussion.
>>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I live in Rockport, MA, and I've been voraciously researching the EV
> world for awhile now. I've tentatively decided to go with a 914 EV,
> hopefully with an AC drivetrain since range is my primary concern. My
> first EV conversion is going to be my daily commuter and it needs to
> be able to go 100+ miles in mixed conditions.
On a daily basis? That is a really tough number. Can you recharge at some
point during the day?
You might be able to convert a 914 to get that kind of range with cheap
batteries, but most likely it will wear out the batteries quickly. My
guess is less than 6 months, maybe as little as two or three months before
the capacity drops to the point where you can't make your range anymore.
If you can charge 1/2 way, then you might be able to extend the pack life
span to 6 months to 1 year. I'm, of course, talking about how loing until
the pack can't make your range demands, not before it's totally useless.
Anyone who wants to argue these numbers, please remember I'm assuming over
25,000 miles per year under pretty hard conditions.
> I realize that is
> difficult to engineer unless you are using crazy expensive battery
> packs, but I'm open to flooded NiCads (found a couple of sources for
> surplus Marathon BB600s that might work). I'm a physics grad, and
> technically proficient. I'm currently an IT Manager for a R&D arm of a
> major telco.
BB600s have pretty much the same energy storage of an equivelent weight in
lead-acid battteries. Might last a bit longer though, maybe even a year.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can charge LiIon batteries with any CC/CV lead acid charger as long as it
does not exceed the recommended voltage/current for the combined string.
However you must use a BMS to ensure that no single cell exceeds its rated
voltage. It must have some kind of active balancing because LiIon cells will
go out of balance after a few charges.
I use my Zivan NG3 to charge 45 x TS LFP90AHA cells in series (144V nominal).
It works like a charm with my BMS. The Zivan is good because it closes an
output contact when the charging current drops below 1.2A and this can be
used to switch off the charger.
Remember that as the end-of-charge gets close the voltage rises rapidly so it
is wise to choose some lower value than say the full 4.2V per cell (eg. 3.6V
for Phosphate chemistry) and effectively slightly undercharge the pack.
Regards, Rod Dilkes
www.ev-power.com.au
On Friday 06 April 2007 23:13, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> yes you stop charging once the current is very low.
> The first point made is the important one, i.e. do what the battery
> maker says, not what some dude says on a mailing list in a 20-second reply.
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > That contradicts what I've read about charging Li-ion.
> > Li-ion charging current drops as it reaches full charge, but it does
> > not stop. The charger must immediately detect the full charge state by
> > looking for the drop in current (or, as a backup method, a timeout) and
> > stop the current. Li-ion is not tolerant of overcharge. It will
> > quickly degrade or damage the cell and can even start a fire.
> >
> > It would be very unwise to tinker with charging li-ion with anything
> > other than strict adherence to the mfg specification. The cells are
> > easily damaged and expensive, and fire is a very real possibility.
> >
> > Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i fully support every word said here
mostly development takes place in non-business
places by people who are usually treated unreasonably
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Indeed, I think *all* the innovations in the EV field (and most
> >> other fields) come from small experimenters and hobbyists; not
> >> from big companies. These small innovators invent, build, and
> >> test these ideas themselves. Big companies just step in *after*
> >> the pioneers have proven that the innovation works.
>
> From: John Fisher
> > This is really not supported by the evidence IMO. No scientific
> > problems will be solved by home tinkerers (like me) and the real
> > engineering problems center around manufacturing and cost, not
> > design.
>
> I think you would find it enlightening to study history a bit. Make
yourself a list of the greatest scientists, engineers, and inventors. Look
up where they were when they made their most remarkable breakthroughs. In
almost every case, you'll find they were working almost alone, or in some
small company. Also, you will find that what they came up with was well
outside the "conventional wisdom" of all large companies.
>
> > You could argue that re-packaging old ideas is innovation
>
> I would argue the opposite; that re-packaging old ideas is *not*
innovation. Large companies call it "innovation" but it is really just
perfecting someone else's ideas -- making them cheaper or in larger
quantities than the originator (and often, with little or no credit to the
real inventor).
>
> History is full of examples of inventors that had to fight long and hard
battles with big companies that stole their ideas. The inventors of the
vacuum tube, of FM radio, of the transistor, of the integrated circuit, and
of the microcomputer all come to mind.
>
> > You have to be realistic - sure you can build a crude EV, with
> > enough money you can build a pretty good one, by using off-the-
> > shelf parts. What you will never be able to do is design one that
> > can be profitably sold in the tens of thousands to DOT standards.
> > That's a *hard* engineering problem.
>
> I guess we have different opinions on the definition of "engineering". I
see engineering as the process of taking a scientific possibility and
turning it into reality; something that that actually works. For example,
the scientists figure out that it is possible to put a man on the moon. The
engineers design the vehicles to actually do it.
>
> >From that point, the actual building of the vehicles is a job for
technicians and machinists and other tradesmen. Figuring out what they cost
and how to pay for it is not engineering; it is economics and management.
>
> With respect to EVs, all the record-holders in range, acceleration, top
speed etc. were built by small companies; not big ones. Look up Paul
MacReady, Alan Cocconi, James Worden, Dennis Berube, and others. Tiny
shoestring start-up Commuter Vehicles built and sold more EVs than GM, Ford,
and Chrysler combined.
>
> > Software is fundamentally different. It is oddly amenable to
> > small group design and open source development
>
> As a hardware design engineer, I see quite the opposite. Hardware lends
itself very well to brilliant designs coming from small groups. Where do you
think companies like Apple, Compaq, Hewlett Packard, etc. came from?
>
> --
> "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it." -- Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.0.0/751 - Release Date: 4/7/2007
10:57 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim
Welcome to the list. I think you are on the right track, but you do have a
challenging set of
objectives. The BB600s are the right way to go in the northeast. The two main
reasons I chose them
are the weather and the longevity. I wanted to make sure I could use my car all
year round, even
in the winter, and the NiCads provide for that. With lead-acids, there's too
big a penalty to pay
in the winter. By reputation, NiCads won't suffer the same loss of range when
the temperature
drops. But my car isn't on the road yet, so I can't speak from experience.
As to longevity, they are reputed to last many years, if treated right. (I've
heard numbers as
long as 30 years.) And they should do better on depth of discharge. I'm hoping
to go much farther
than the typical 50% DOD on a regular basis.
But there is a price to pay for the gains. They are flooded and require regular
maintenance. Don't
box them into unreachable locations or you will be in watering hell in no time.
You should provide
for forced ventialtion during charging and allow drainage out of the box. I
have mine set up so
that, if I need to, I can take a hose to them and rinse them off. I haven't
seen an affordable
watering system yet. It would be great if we could find some reasonably priced
watering caps.
Another issue is the connections. Some fo us on the list went in on a group
purchases of busbars.
The most common busbar I've seen are nickel plated copper bar stock. I'm using
.125x.5 inch
material. The key is that the nickel won't corrode in the KOH environment.
Copper and aluminum
will not last without protection.
>
> http://sg-photo.com
>
This is where I first saw BB600s, but they are not a reliable source. Or cheap.
We got ours in a
group buy from a goverment surplus auction, but they don't happen that often. I
wonder if there
aren't airline maintenance facilities that have these. They probably ship them
off to be recycled
pretty quickly.
>
> I'd be happy to come down next
> saturday, Bob. Love to commish with other EV heads! If someone from
> this-a-way can hook me up, I'll be all set. I just need the details
> and to meet up with the pool.
>
I'm not sure if I can, but I hope to make the next meeting. Maybe we'll see you
there!
By the way, my car is an '87 944. I had no luck finding a 914 that wasn't
rusted. The 944, while
heavier, is completely galvanized and very solid. You can find them all over
and parts are easy to
get. I currently have 144 BB600's in the car, along with a Z1k, ADC 9", and one
of Richs PFC-30s.
After I get the car on the road I'll be focused on getting the rest of the
cells in the car. If
all goes well, I'll put as many as 300 in the car. Fingers are crossed.
Good luck with your project, ignore the naysayers and find your own solution.
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
At 07:15 AM 4/8/2007, Dave Cover wrote:
Another issue is the connections. Some fo us on the list went in on
a group purchases of busbars.
The most common busbar I've seen are nickel plated copper bar stock.
I'm using .125x.5 inch
material. The key is that the nickel won't corrode in the KOH
environment. Copper and aluminum
will not last without protection.
And I still have a large number of BB600 busbars available....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.tech-m4.com/images/pdf/TM4andCMtisseoct62006englishfinal.pdf
this design uses hub motors in the rear wheels only .. the front wheels are
driven by the diesel engine
the range for electric only operation is just 3km ! absurdly low
i guess the french company has settled for using the electic hub motors
only to give a short boost at times .. with the diesel engine re-charging
the batteries when depleted
looks like the batteries for running the hub motors are rather small in
Amp-hour terms .. or size
dunno if this qualifies as a hybrid since the two drive systems appear
to be rather independant and separate .. though existing in ONE car !
that could be one way of having the benefit of keeping a car as it is while
just adding another 'driving system' using batteries and motors to the other
pair of wheels .. and call it a hybrid
..peekay
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David, I found this website: http://www.strathsteam.com/page10.html , this
guy used an ETEK in his original conversion, then added a second Etek to
overcome heat issues, and then I believe went to the PMG-132 alltogether. I
was impressed with how he mounted 2 eteks in the car.
I know the topic seemed to have died out on it's own, but thought David still
might like to see the ETEK in a car.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
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My daily range is about 60 miles with LOTS of hills and stops. This
number will go up dramatically in the near future. I also need to car
to hold 4 people comfortably with a range of around 300-400 miles. No
ordinary electric car will fit that bill.
The car I'm considering the conversion on is an '85 Merkur XR4Ti(Ford
Sierra in EU) It is a little heavy for such conversion, but it will
fit 4 comfortably. It has an independent rear suspension that should
make mounting the electric motor in the back fairly easy. I could
easily fit a small diesel, like a Perkins 3 cylinder(130LBS dry)
where the original 4 cylinder gas engine(435LBS dry)was and fit
generator in the transmission tunnel.
The rest of the system is pretty much up in the air, thats why I'm
here, to learn more about it.
I have no illusions of a diesel-over-electric being as efficient as a
pure electric car. But I do believe it can be possible to make a car
that is much more efficient than what is currently on the market
while also being practical for 4 people to take on a long trip. But I
could be wrong :)
I also love to tinker.
John Boy
On Apr 8, 2007, at 2:52 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
It's workable, but is it practical?
Some questions:
What is your expected daily range?
Are you planning on constantly running the generator?
Will it also have batteries and just use the generator to extend
the range?
If you are constantly running the engine, have you considered
connecting
it directly to the wheels and thus bypass the losses associated with
converting the mechanical power to electricity and then back to
mechanical power?
I've been toying with the idea of running one based on a small
constant speed diesel running on B100.
I am in the process of researching small 1 or 2 cylinder compact
diesels that can be modified to run like Bruce Crower's experimental
engine. The idea would to then put that engine under the hood of a
car running a generator to power an electric motor.
Bruce's motor: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE
Am I looney for thinking this is a workable option?
John Boy
On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:56 AM, John Fisher wrote:
Good for you David! And thanks for the research.
Here's where your assumptions don't apply ( to my project):
I am assuming a pluggable hybrid.
I am not burning gasoline in an unmodified genset.
I am not thinking of running the genset at full load 100% of the
time.
I am aimed at a car lighter and slower than a OEM gas vehicle. It
might even have better aero one day.
You didn't account for the reduced power-plant emissions of reduced
electrical use ( granted, perhaps negligible in non-coal or nuclear
states)
Gensets might be lighter than lead batteries, and no more difficult
to package. Certain the genset is not heavier anyway...
Further, you yourself suggested using a clean auto engine to make a
home-built genset, and re-tuning it to run at a constant low speed.
I might opt for a smaller MC engine with catalytic converter, since
we don't have micro-cars in our Super-sized country.
So I need to do some calcs based on the following assumptions:
1) genset starts running after batts drop to some adjustable level,
say 40% of usable charge to start with.
2) genset runs at a high enough KW to limp home, but not maintain
30 mph. 5kw is what I was thinking...
Its a complicated prediction, so with my daily loop of 25 miles and
no re-charging en route, I'll start by guesstimating the genset
runs 50% of the time, subject to real-world experience. If we could
scrounge up a free circuit at work, I might even be able to do
without the genset altogether most days. But I think we are maxed.
So at genset 50% of the time the car returns home needing a full
recharge.
All guesses to be sure. caveat emptor!
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
research shows that it gives no advantage in greenhouse gases, but
some large but as yet unknown-to-me improvement in smog. I could
always get a small engine catalytic converter for it, assuming the
chemistry is OK with propane. Alas, H2 storage is probably a
showstopper for now. Supply and storage are just too darn
expensive, even for the little motor. Interestingly, a propane
genset will probably convert to H2 or a number of other fuel gases
with ease, but thats OT too.
Others might want to look at bio-fuels in diesel gensets. That just
doesn't fit my profile right now for a bunch of OT reasons.
more later
John Fisher
David Roden wrote:
I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a
recent question or comment about genset APUs. So I thought that I
would amend that response and provide some possibly useful
information. Rather than repeating what's available in the
archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some
data to the discussion.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
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> > I live in Rockport, MA, and I've been voraciously researching the EV
> > world for awhile now. I've tentatively decided to go with a 914 EV,
> > hopefully with an AC drivetrain since range is my primary concern.
I don't that ac or dc is going to make that much difference , the ac will mean
hi voltage , so no golf cart batteries ,
My
> > first EV conversion is going to be my daily commuter and it needs to
> > be able to go 100+ miles in mixed conditions.
> On a daily basis? That is a really tough number. Can you recharge at some
> point during the day?
While many might say ,, stick with gas I think that if sombody really wants to
drive a EV then this can be done . My batteries in my lawn mower ( excide
orbitals , same as used in many cars) where charged 10 times a day all summer
long , 95% of the time they where charged at over 200 amp in less that 10
minites .. so you have a 100 mile trip ( 50 miles each way ?) , you set up a
dump station
1/2 way , now a EV with just a 25 mile range can make the 100 mile trip . Yes
you will have to stop for a 10 minunite charg but you'll not only be driving a
EV which has still kept me entertained while driving for the last 12 years your
get to dump charge which for some reason that I don't quite understand is a
thrilling experance ,
> You might be able to convert a 914 to get that kind of range with cheap
> batteries, but most likely it will wear out the batteries quickly.
The othe posibilty is lots of golf cart batteries , people have gotten 24 in
the 914 this could give the 50 miles , you would need to charge at work .
Another idea is a trailer with batteries , could run on trailer bats 1/2 way
drop off trailer at charging station then drive the rest of the way ..
> guess is less than 6 months, maybe as little as two or three months before
> the capacity drops to the point where you can't make your range anymore.\
What put an end to my pack was my BMS, a simple 10 postion switch and dc to dc
converter ,, I left it on and was off for a few days ,, ran all but one of the
batteies down ( cooked the one ) they where a year old, yes they where well
cycled ( I have over 50 yards that I do and at 20 to 30 cuts a year for each ,
that is a lot of charging ) ,.
>
> If you can charge 1/2 way, then you might be able to extend the pack life
> span to 6 months to 1 year. I'm, of course, talking about how loing until
> the pack can't make your range demands, not before it's totally useless.
>
agree ,, at the end my pack would need a warm up charge , l'd cut 1/2 a yard
and then dump but by the end of the day they where working good again.
> Anyone who wants to argue these numbers, please remember I'm assuming over
> 25,000 miles per year under pretty hard conditions.
>
at 25mph that $3000 dollard , cost of a pack
> > I realize that is
> > difficult to engineer unless you are using crazy expensive battery
> > packs, but I'm open to flooded NiCads (found a couple of sources for
> > surplus Marathon BB600s that might work). I'm a physics grad, and
> > technically proficient. I'm currently an IT Manager for a R&D arm of a
> > major telco.
>
The other think is if you do this you will be showing how EV's can do what we
think they can't ,, you will be doing a lot more that just driving to work .
Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
This is the Nimble Motorsports Hybrid (NiMHybrid) approach.
This approach allows relatively easy upgrade of existing cars into
plug-in hybrids. I didn't look at your link, so can't comment on the
specifics there.
Why isn't it a hybrid? You imply that this is bogus.
Hybrid means it uses both gas and electric power.
What is bogus is to eliminate the alternator in a gas car and call it a
hybrid. Combing the starter and alternator into one unit is a good idea,
but not a hybrid either.
jack
peekay wrote:
http://www.tech-m4.com/images/pdf/TM4andCMtisseoct62006englishfinal.pdf
this design uses hub motors in the rear wheels only .. the front wheels are
driven by the diesel engine
the range for electric only operation is just 3km ! absurdly low
i guess the french company has settled for using the electic hub motors
only to give a short boost at times .. with the diesel engine re-charging
the batteries when depleted
looks like the batteries for running the hub motors are rather small in
Amp-hour terms .. or size
dunno if this qualifies as a hybrid since the two drive systems appear
to be rather independant and separate .. though existing in ONE car !
that could be one way of having the benefit of keeping a car as it is while
just adding another 'driving system' using batteries and motors to the other
pair of wheels .. and call it a hybrid
..peekay
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--- Begin Message ---
I notice you keep mentioning a big module of small 18650 LiFePo4 cells. Why
not use the new big Thundersky LFP(LiFePo4) cells that are made for EVs?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:03 PM
Subject: Hybrid Battery Concept.
When making LiFePo4 (actually, all battery cells) cells, compromises are
made between the amount of volume used for collector grids and
interconnects and volume used for active material. So there are, for
example 1500mah 18650's and 1100mah 18650's or 2.3ah 26650's and 3.2ah
26650's.
I was thinking of a different tack on the Lifepo4 module. So far I was
thinking of 144 of the high power 26650's for, example, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Using A123's for example this would be a theoretical 2500 AMPs if the
interconnects could take it.
What if, inside the same packageing we put 1/3 hi-power and 2/3
hi-energy cells and the BMS uses a small dc to dc to shuttle charge
between the hi-power and the hi-energy sides. This could make a module
at 13.2V that is only capable of 888A peaks but contains 104 ah.
This would be a little harder on the hi-power cells and a more expensive
BMS.
Would it be worth it?
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