EV Digest 6647
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: a wierd hybrid design .. or it is not wierd
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Who's the guy in Vegas
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie?
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Charger/Battery Recommedations (Was:Killing my Batteries Thread)
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Electronic Training for Newbies
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Composite repairs, Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch
universities
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) home made hybrid, Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
My question is, how costly and easy is it going to be to repair your car if
it gets into a crash, lets say?
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
Another innovation is a monocoque all composite
body/chassis that only me, Ferrari are doing in production
and Ferrari only on their most expensive road model. All
their and others F-1, many other of the fastest race cars
are composite monocoque. Why is safety along with a great
strength/weight ratio, stiffness.
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just one point .. i am not implying that it is bogus ..
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Why isn't it a hybrid? You imply that this is bogus.
> Hybrid means it uses both gas and electric power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent 5 or 6 emails and didn't get responses for priceing and
availability.All the information I did find pointed to 1C max discharge
and pretty significant voltage sag at that 1C. So for a 40-60 Ah pack
this denotes high voltage and AC and almost an ultralight. I was
tending more towards an AGM or at worst case, floody replacement.
To quote thundersky on their LFP cells:
"9.7 The most obvious disadvantage of the Lithium ion Power battery is
that it is not adaptable to long-term and large constant current (≥1CA)
discharge. Therefore, to use this product, the load power must be
designed to precisely match the capacity of the battery pack. Otherwise
the battery capacity will decrease rapidly, and its service life will be
shortened."
1C is large? LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> From: "Mark Grasser" <
> Building / converting EVs?
>
> I bought some parts from him a year or so ago. I am going to be in Vegas for
> 3 days this coming week. Thought maybe I'd stop by.
>
Jon the web master of www.grassrootsev.com is now in Los Vegas ,,, He starting
on a vw van conversion and I'm sure he could use some help ,,, I love it when
sombody comes buy and say " I just want it help , what can i do" . Give him a
call , his number is on the web sit ...
Steve Clunn
>
> Mark Grasser
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What I forgot to mention , and is the reason I am entertaining this
concept, is the reduction in cost.
lifepo4 is suppose to be low cost when compared to other lithium
chemistries, right now the proprietary nature of it is allowing the few
manufactures to amortize off equipment quickly. I expect the price to
drop dramatically, and soon.(I am also predicting gasoline at $5/gallon
this or next summer...so this info and $3.50 will get a decent cup of
coffee). I can get 3200mah lifepo4 cells for 1/5 the price of the high
power 2300mah cells. The 3200 has more active material in it!.
Offsetting active material with more collector should balance out in the
future (Nano partical soulutions are expensive at the moment)
so the comparison mentioned useing list prices for cells would be
full power full energy hybrid
volts 13.2 13.2 13.2
max cont >1000A 72A 888A
#SIMI-CONTINUOUS
max peak >2000A * 360A 1680A
ah 82.8Ah 115.2Ah 104Ah
cellcost $2592 $648 $1296
* interconects permitting
# But not 100% DUTY, Continuous for only 25AH worth then stop and let
transfer occur.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The service manager at the company that sold us the parts for the
ForkenSwift also provided us with a number of free, used, 6v floodies
which we used to put together our test pack.
On some - but not all - of these used batteries, the top of the case
around one of the terminals has an upwards bulge (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch).
What would have caused this? Is it a sure sign that the battery is
toast? Or will only a load test tell for sure?
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had no trouble getting a pricelist directly from Thundersky.
http://everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm Pricing and some
discharge info from their dealer here too.
Talk to Jukka(he's on this list) http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1007 he has
a lot of experience with these. I thought they are working pretty good for
him, but I guess they may not be an AGM replacement, although he's been
doing burnouts in a video of his
You said "I can get 3200mah lifepo4 cells for 1/5 the price of the high
power 2300mah cells."
For how much and where?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
I sent 5 or 6 emails and didn't get responses for priceing and
availability.All the information I did find pointed to 1C max discharge
and pretty significant voltage sag at that 1C. So for a 40-60 Ah pack
this denotes high voltage and AC and almost an ultralight. I was
tending more towards an AGM or at worst case, floody replacement.
To quote thundersky on their LFP cells:
"9.7 The most obvious disadvantage of the Lithium ion Power battery is
that it is not adaptable to long-term and large constant current (≥1CA)
discharge. Therefore, to use this product, the load power must be
designed to precisely match the capacity of the battery pack. Otherwise
the battery capacity will decrease rapidly, and its service life will be
shortened."
1C is large? LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been unable to lacate any BB600 either. Anyone know of a current
available source?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hankins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: Charger/Battery Recommedations (Was:Killing my Batteries
Thread)
Nicads! Try the BB-600s! ;-)
Any ideas for some possible sources for the bb600s?
I can't find them anywhere, My local Batteries plus says "not interested",
Google search is zero and Marathon won't return my emails.
[snip]
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
David Hankins
EV wanabe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you are much better off to use the motor to power the wheels,
and eliminate the complexity, losses, and weight of the generator.
For my taurus wagon hybrid project, after considering different motors,
bought a metro 1.0 liter 3-cyl to power the front wheels. I considered
using a 13B rotary for its size and weight but the geo motor is actually
smaller and weighs less (130lbs?) and already has a FWD 5-speed trans.
A diesel would get a little better mpg, but these geo motors are
relatively easy to find, that is a big advantage. No unobtanium here.
Jack
John Russell wrote:
My daily range is about 60 miles with LOTS of hills and stops. This
number will go up dramatically in the near future. I also need to car
to hold 4 people comfortably with a range of around 300-400 miles. No
ordinary electric car will fit that bill.
The car I'm considering the conversion on is an '85 Merkur XR4Ti(Ford
Sierra in EU) It is a little heavy for such conversion, but it will fit
4 comfortably. It has an independent rear suspension that should make
mounting the electric motor in the back fairly easy. I could easily fit
a small diesel, like a Perkins 3 cylinder(130LBS dry) where the
original 4 cylinder gas engine(435LBS dry)was and fit generator in the
transmission tunnel.
The rest of the system is pretty much up in the air, thats why I'm
here, to learn more about it.
I have no illusions of a diesel-over-electric being as efficient as a
pure electric car. But I do believe it can be possible to make a car
that is much more efficient than what is currently on the market while
also being practical for 4 people to take on a long trip. But I could
be wrong :)
I also love to tinker.
John Boy
On Apr 8, 2007, at 2:52 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
It's workable, but is it practical?
Some questions:
What is your expected daily range?
Are you planning on constantly running the generator?
Will it also have batteries and just use the generator to extend
the range?
If you are constantly running the engine, have you considered
connecting
it directly to the wheels and thus bypass the losses associated with
converting the mechanical power to electricity and then back to
mechanical power?
I've been toying with the idea of running one based on a small
constant speed diesel running on B100.
I am in the process of researching small 1 or 2 cylinder compact
diesels that can be modified to run like Bruce Crower's experimental
engine. The idea would to then put that engine under the hood of a
car running a generator to power an electric motor.
Bruce's motor: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE
Am I looney for thinking this is a workable option?
John Boy
On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:56 AM, John Fisher wrote:
Good for you David! And thanks for the research.
Here's where your assumptions don't apply ( to my project):
I am assuming a pluggable hybrid.
I am not burning gasoline in an unmodified genset.
I am not thinking of running the genset at full load 100% of the time.
I am aimed at a car lighter and slower than a OEM gas vehicle. It
might even have better aero one day.
You didn't account for the reduced power-plant emissions of reduced
electrical use ( granted, perhaps negligible in non-coal or nuclear
states)
Gensets might be lighter than lead batteries, and no more difficult
to package. Certain the genset is not heavier anyway...
Further, you yourself suggested using a clean auto engine to make a
home-built genset, and re-tuning it to run at a constant low speed.
I might opt for a smaller MC engine with catalytic converter, since
we don't have micro-cars in our Super-sized country.
So I need to do some calcs based on the following assumptions:
1) genset starts running after batts drop to some adjustable level,
say 40% of usable charge to start with.
2) genset runs at a high enough KW to limp home, but not maintain
30 mph. 5kw is what I was thinking...
Its a complicated prediction, so with my daily loop of 25 miles and
no re-charging en route, I'll start by guesstimating the genset
runs 50% of the time, subject to real-world experience. If we could
scrounge up a free circuit at work, I might even be able to do
without the genset altogether most days. But I think we are maxed.
So at genset 50% of the time the car returns home needing a full
recharge.
All guesses to be sure. caveat emptor!
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
research shows that it gives no advantage in greenhouse gases, but
some large but as yet unknown-to-me improvement in smog. I could
always get a small engine catalytic converter for it, assuming the
chemistry is OK with propane. Alas, H2 storage is probably a
showstopper for now. Supply and storage are just too darn
expensive, even for the little motor. Interestingly, a propane
genset will probably convert to H2 or a number of other fuel gases
with ease, but thats OT too.
Others might want to look at bio-fuels in diesel gensets. That just
doesn't fit my profile right now for a bunch of OT reasons.
more later
John Fisher
David Roden wrote:
I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive response to a
recent question or comment about genset APUs. So I thought that I
would amend that response and provide some possibly useful
information. Rather than repeating what's available in the
archives already, however, I thought it might be worth adding some
data to the discussion.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Michael Barkley
> If a person wanted to attempt to get a few communities involved,
> IE: Rival Highschools in a competition, are there any grants or
> financial support they could turn to?
I think it could be done at very low cost like our BEST group (see
www.bestoutreach.com).
BEST has had a dozen or so classes of students build EVs every year for 10
years now. Our students build their cars for less than $100 each (the maximum
allowed by the rules)! We run our whole program for less than $2000 per year.
Classes can use anything they like, but must submit receipts for whatever they
buy. BEST reimburses each team for their expenditures. On race day, we loan
each team the batteries. Each battery has a circuit breaker on it, so the
voltage and current limits for everyone is the same. This keeps it fair, and
eliminates the cost of batteries for teams.
Vehicles are typically made almost entirely from scrounged or recycled
materials; scrap lumber or pipe, lawn furniture, old bicycles, etc. They are
incredibly imaginative and resourceful!
To discourage cheating, each team elects a student judge from their class. They
judge the cars on race day; not the adult sponsors or some "officials". The
kids have a finely tuned sense of what is fair, and will come down much harder
on "daddy-built" cars than the adults ever would!
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if you can handle the volume/weight, 5x as many cells in parallel
rated at 1C (3.2A) discharge is 16 amps compared to one 2.3AH cell. So
like cost per amp of current capacity may actually be lower, as well as
having impressive amp-hr capacity.
Danny
Dmitri wrote:
I had no trouble getting a pricelist directly from Thundersky.
http://everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm Pricing and some
discharge info from their dealer here too.
Talk to Jukka(he's on this list) http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1007
he has a lot of experience with these. I thought they are working
pretty good for him, but I guess they may not be an AGM replacement,
although he's been doing burnouts in a video of his
You said "I can get 3200mah lifepo4 cells for 1/5 the price of the high
power 2300mah cells."
For how much and where?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
I sent 5 or 6 emails and didn't get responses for priceing and
availability.All the information I did find pointed to 1C max discharge
and pretty significant voltage sag at that 1C. So for a 40-60 Ah pack
this denotes high voltage and AC and almost an ultralight. I was
tending more towards an AGM or at worst case, floody replacement.
To quote thundersky on their LFP cells:
"9.7 The most obvious disadvantage of the Lithium ion Power battery is
that it is not adaptable to long-term and large constant current (≥1CA)
discharge. Therefore, to use this product, the load power must be
designed to precisely match the capacity of the battery pack. Otherwise
the battery capacity will decrease rapidly, and its service life will be
shortened."
1C is large? LOL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the past some have asked about electronic training
resources. I found this when researching about
fiberglassing.
I doubt this will make you an expert for getting any
job. But it may help you understand the basics when
working on your EV if you have no experience with
electronics what so ever. 4 DVD's at $9.99 each
rental. Not a bad bit of information and it is split
out the way I was taught electronic in the Navy.
smartflix.com/store/video/4630/Basic-Electronic-Theory
They also have Frame building of Motorcycles,
Fiberglassing methods, tig welding, metal working.
This site is a Technical NETFLICK type rental service
of titles you won't find in the local video video
store.
I have no financial or other incentive with this
company. Use at your own risk. The link is provided as
informational only for those who may be interested. I
have just rented 2 DVD's and will apprise the evlist
of any issues I may or may not have since I pointed it
out.
Bruce W.
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
This is definitely ON Topic - The Solar and Electric 500 that was held in
Phoenix Arizona in the 1990s was just the event you are promoting. It started
in 91 and federal funding was increased in 92 and on. Without being political,
the "climate" at the time was conducive to this effort and it was focused
primarily on high schools and universities. I was one of the few independents
that participated but unfortunately we were not supported in the way that the
schools were. My argument was that when a student graduated he/she needed
support as an independent racer to continue the effort and that the school
involvement was a stepping stone into EV racing.
This was a large annual event that drew teams from all over the world, the
local media did not cover the event for more than 1 minute a night on the news
- to our frustration. We had more media attention from Europe and Japan at the
time. At least 5 major power companies from the west participated and
essentially funded the project via government subsidies. All funding (from the
power companies) ceased one week after federal legislation was passed
de-regulating the power companies (1999?) - paving the way for electric power
brokers (enrons).
My hope is that a new racing series is started that supports both schools and
independents and has non government funding - thereby keeping the politics in
washington, and is profitable for the promoters. With the new batteries that
will be affordable in a few years, we can expect some fast and exciting 20+
mile races that would definitely attract people to the track.
mario
http://dm3electrics.com/
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
To: [email protected]
If a person wanted to attempt to get a few communities involved, IE: Rival
Highschools in a competition, are there any grants or financial support they
could turn to? I'm seeing several Highschools like the one below that get the
community involved.
http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread the EV word around a
person's local community? Has anyone on the list, ever gotten involved with a
Highschool program on building EV's, and having competions with the rival
Highschools in the area? I think the local media would eat this sort of thing
up, and get it out on the air & in print.
Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to comment, maybe just private
email me.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Hybrid Battery Concept.
Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2007 10:26:09 -0700
>What I forgot to mention , and is the reason I am
>entertaining this concept, is the reduction in cost.
>
>lifepo4 is suppose to be low cost when compared to other
>lithium chemistries, right now the proprietary nature of it
>is allowing the few manufactures to amortize off equipment
>quickly. I expect the price to drop dramatically, and
>soon.
Not sure about soon but all the new Li-ion chemical
plants that were being built should be coming online soon. I
expect by the time I need a new pack their price will have
dropped a lot.
(I am also predicting gasoline at $5/gallon this or
>next summer..
Only if some event happens as there seems plenty of
capacity now with a 5 million bbl's/day surplus.
Checking the parts out, I'd go a different route.
Instead of Li-ion high power cells, use Hawker 13-16amphr or
whichever one Waylands running for power and the li-ions for
range. This will give you much longer range at a small
increase in weight at a much lower price.
Jerry Dycus
.so this info and $3.50 will get a decent cup
>of coffee). I can get 3200mah lifepo4 cells for 1/5 the
>price of the high power 2300mah cells. The 3200 has more
>active material in it!. Offsetting active material with
>more collector should balance out in the future (Nano
>partical soulutions are expensive at the moment)
>
>so the comparison mentioned useing list prices for cells
>would be
>
> full power full energy
> hybrid volts 13.2
>13.2 13.2 max cont >1000A
> 72A 888A #SIMI-CONTINUOUS
>max peak >2000A * 360A
> 1680A ah 82.8Ah
>115.2Ah 104Ah cellcost $2592
> $648 $1296
>
>
>* interconects permitting
># But not 100% DUTY, Continuous for only 25AH worth then
>stop and let transfer occur.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dmitri and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by
Dutch universities
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:38:46 -0400
>My question is, how costly and easy is it going to be to
>repair your car if it gets into a crash, lets say?
A lot easier than metal!!
Small, medium damage can be fixed by epoxy/fiberglass
and larger damage can get a new section made from the molds
and splice it on or even a whole new body, transfering the
parts from the old one.
We do this in boat repair all the time. And fairly
easy to do it yourself like everything in my EV, designed
for ease of repair by regular people. I mean if designing
from scratch, why not!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:36 PM
>Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by
>Dutch universities
>
>
>> Another innovation is a monocoque all composite
>> body/chassis that only me, Ferrari are doing in
>> production and Ferrari only on their most expensive road
>> model. All their and others F-1, many other of the
>> fastest race cars are composite monocoque. Why is safety
>> along with a great strength/weight ratio, stiffness.
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ummm, guys, can we take a step back for a moment?
Don't get me wrong, I support EVs in the schools, but
could you please differentiate between whether you're
talking about Voc-Ed, or Science Ed?
The point is that each have separate goals. EVs in
science consist of physical science concepts:
chemistry of Pb-acid vs. lithium, series/parallel
circuits; amps/volts; AC/DC, etc.
EVs in Voc-Ed would be: trying to teach the students a
viable trade (eg. welding, wiring techniques,
materials/fabrication technologies, etc.
When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
education component is about to go by the wayside, and
a teacher is about to get a note in the file, if not
fired, for failing to carry out state and
district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
job. Otherwise, it's an afterschool club (which ain't
all bad either)!
(;-p
Appreciatively,
--- DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Michael,
> This is definitely ON Topic - The Solar and
> Electric 500 that was held in Phoenix Arizona in the
> 1990s was just the event you are promoting. It
> started in 91 and federal funding was increased in
> 92 and on. Without being political, the "climate"
> at the time was conducive to this effort and it was
> focused primarily on high schools and universities.
> I was one of the few independents that participated
> but unfortunately we were not supported in the way
> that the schools were. My argument was that when a
> student graduated he/she needed support as an
> independent racer to continue the effort and that
> the school involvement was a stepping stone into EV
> racing.
> This was a large annual event that drew teams from
> all over the world, the local media did not cover
> the event for more than 1 minute a night on the news
> - to our frustration. We had more media attention
> from Europe and Japan at the time. At least 5 major
> power companies from the west participated and
> essentially funded the project via government
> subsidies. All funding (from the power companies)
> ceased one week after federal legislation was passed
> de-regulating the power companies (1999?) - paving
> the way for electric power brokers (enrons).
> My hope is that a new racing series is started
> that supports both schools and independents and has
> non government funding - thereby keeping the
> politics in washington, and is profitable for the
> promoters. With the new batteries that will be
> affordable in a few years, we can expect some fast
> and exciting 20+ mile races that would definitely
> attract people to the track.
> mario
> http://dm3electrics.com/
>
> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV
> conversions?
> To: [email protected]
>
> If a person wanted to attempt to get a few
> communities involved, IE: Rival Highschools in a
> competition, are there any grants or financial
> support they could turn to? I'm seeing several
> Highschools like the one below that get the
> community involved.
>
> http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
>
> Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread
> the EV word around a person's local community? Has
> anyone on the list, ever gotten involved with a
> Highschool program on building EV's, and having
> competions with the rival Highschools in the area? I
> think the local media would eat this sort of thing
> up, and get it out on the air & in print.
>
> Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to
> comment, maybe just private email me.
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> "You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Only a load test will tell for sure; bulging on the
ends is to be expected-- but the symptoms you've
described... bulging near the posts-- "it ain't good".
(:-<
peace,
--- "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> The service manager at the company that sold us the
> parts for the
> ForkenSwift also provided us with a number of free,
> used, 6v floodies
> which we used to put together our test pack.
>
> On some - but not all - of these used batteries, the
> top of the case
> around one of the terminals has an upwards bulge
> (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch).
>
> What would have caused this? Is it a sure sign that
> the battery is
> toast? Or will only a load test tell for sure?
>
> Darin
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
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Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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I'm thinking a little bit of competition, along with what is talked about in
this video with Ed Begley, Jr. >
http://www.evchallenge.org/about/ev_short2.wmv
Maybe, it will have to start off as an after school club, I know what you
mean by teaching guidelines, and state test requirements, etc......
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ummm, guys, can we take a step back for a moment?
Don't get me wrong, I support EVs in the schools, but
could you please differentiate between whether you're
talking about Voc-Ed, or Science Ed?
The point is that each have separate goals. EVs in
science consist of physical science concepts:
chemistry of Pb-acid vs. lithium, series/parallel
circuits; amps/volts; AC/DC, etc.
EVs in Voc-Ed would be: trying to teach the students a
viable trade (eg. welding, wiring techniques,
materials/fabrication technologies, etc.
When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
education component is about to go by the wayside, and
a teacher is about to get a note in the file, if not
fired, for failing to carry out state and
district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
job. Otherwise, it's an afterschool club (which ain't
all bad either)!
(;-p
Appreciatively,
--- DM3 wrote:
>
> Michael,
> This is definitely ON Topic - The Solar and
> Electric 500 that was held in Phoenix Arizona in the
> 1990s was just the event you are promoting. It
> started in 91 and federal funding was increased in
> 92 and on. Without being political, the "climate"
> at the time was conducive to this effort and it was
> focused primarily on high schools and universities.
> I was one of the few independents that participated
> but unfortunately we were not supported in the way
> that the schools were. My argument was that when a
> student graduated he/she needed support as an
> independent racer to continue the effort and that
> the school involvement was a stepping stone into EV
> racing.
> This was a large annual event that drew teams from
> all over the world, the local media did not cover
> the event for more than 1 minute a night on the news
> - to our frustration. We had more media attention
> from Europe and Japan at the time. At least 5 major
> power companies from the west participated and
> essentially funded the project via government
> subsidies. All funding (from the power companies)
> ceased one week after federal legislation was passed
> de-regulating the power companies (1999?) - paving
> the way for electric power brokers (enrons).
> My hope is that a new racing series is started
> that supports both schools and independents and has
> non government funding - thereby keeping the
> politics in washington, and is profitable for the
> promoters. With the new batteries that will be
> affordable in a few years, we can expect some fast
> and exciting 20+ mile races that would definitely
> attract people to the track.
> mario
> http://dm3electrics.com/
>
> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 21:37:26 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Barkley
> Subject: OT ?, Getting Highschools started in EV
> conversions?
> To: [email protected]
>
> If a person wanted to attempt to get a few
> communities involved, IE: Rival Highschools in a
> competition, are there any grants or financial
> support they could turn to? I'm seeing several
> Highschools like the one below that get the
> community involved.
>
> http://kickngas.org/home/index.aspx
>
> Is this a good method to go with, in order to spread
> the EV word around a person's local community? Has
> anyone on the list, ever gotten involved with a
> Highschool program on building EV's, and having
> competions with the rival Highschools in the area? I
> think the local media would eat this sort of thing
> up, and get it out on the air & in print.
>
> Hope this is not to far OT, if so and you'd like to
> comment, maybe just private email me.
>
> Michael Barkley
>
> "You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
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Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
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Hi John and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 09:13:56 -0700
>My daily range is about 60 miles with LOTS of hills and
>stops. This number will go up dramatically in the near
>future. I also need to car to hold 4 people comfortably
>with a range of around 300-400 miles. No ordinary
>electric car will fit that bill.
Actually there is one being built right now, the Sunrise
already did 377 miles and Boston to NYC on 1 charge many yrs
ago on NiMH on I-95. With li batts, though very costly, can
go your distance. On lead batts it will go well over 100
miles and with a small gen in the rear, would do your needs
until li batts come down in price so you can go full EV.
>
>The car I'm considering the conversion on is an '85 Merkur
>XR4Ti(Ford Sierra in EU) It is a little heavy for such
>conversion, but it will fit 4 comfortably. It has an
>independent rear suspension that should make mounting the
>electric motor in the back fairly easy. I could easily
>fit a small diesel, like a Perkins 3 cylinder(130LBS dry)
>where the original 4 cylinder gas engine(435LBS dry)was and
>fit generator in the transmission tunnel.
I'd go with the Diesel forward, clutched to an EV
motor direct connected the other end to a manual
transmission to the diff.
This allows you EV drive for most work around town
with a 30 mile or so battery range and use the diesel for
longer distance work.
Using say a 8" ADC will give you nice pick up but
no regen. An AC motor, preferably a low voltage one, can
give you some more eff and regen. What you really ned is a
large Sep-Ex motor but I don't know of any large controllers
for it. Without regen you may need a generator too for regen
or charging from the diesel, say belted to the EV motor .
I've never heard of that Perkins diesel. Can you
give a URL on it?
Petter use to have a great little lightweight 2
cyl, water cooled 12 hp diesel I'd love to get my hands on
one of but can't find now, though your find sounds very
interesting.
>
>The rest of the system is pretty much up in the air, thats
>why I'm here, to learn more about it.
>
>I have no illusions of a diesel-over-electric being as
>efficient as a pure electric car. But I do believe it can
>be possible to make a car that is much more efficient
>than what is currently on the market while also being
>practical for 4 people to take on a long trip. But I
>could be wrong :)
But here in my version you are taking the sources of
drag that make ICE's so ineff and eliminating most of them.
How is by not even using the diesel in most trips and then
only when up to speed where the motor is heavily loaded,
thus very eff, hitting probably 35% eff vs about 10% eff as
a ICE without the EV drive.
Where cars are ineff is just while idling, they take
more power from engine internal friction, water pump, cams,
ect just to turn over than I take to go 55mph!! And even at
speed they are rarely loaded more than 10-20% of available
power. EV's are eff because they only use the power needed,
not wasting it ildling, internal friction, ect.
Done right with low drag tires, ect, you can probably
get 80 mpg on those times you need more range and cost
equivilent of 150 mpg in electric cost depending on you
source costs.
Jerry Dycus
>
>I also love to tinker.
>
>John Boy
>
>
>On Apr 8, 2007, at 2:52 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> It's workable, but is it practical?
>> Some questions:
>> What is your expected daily range?
>> Are you planning on constantly running the generator?
>> Will it also have batteries and just use the generator
>> to extend the range?
>> If you are constantly running the engine, have you
>> considered connecting
>> it directly to the wheels and thus bypass the losses
>> associated with converting the mechanical power to
>> electricity and then back to mechanical power?
>>
>>> I've been toying with the idea of running one based on a
>>> small constant speed diesel running on B100.
>>>
>>> I am in the process of researching small 1 or 2 cylinder
>>> compact diesels that can be modified to run like Bruce
>>> Crower's experimental engine. The idea would to then put
>>> that engine under the hood of a car running a generator
>>>to power an electric motor.
>>> Bruce's motor:
>>> http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/
>>>20060227/FREE/302270007/1023/THISWEEKSISSUE
>>> Am I looney for thinking this is a workable option?
>>>
>>> John Boy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 7, 2007, at 10:56 AM, John Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good for you David! And thanks for the research.
>>>>
>>>> Here's where your assumptions don't apply ( to my
>>>>project):
>>>> I am assuming a pluggable hybrid.
>>>> I am not burning gasoline in an unmodified genset.
>>>> I am not thinking of running the genset at full load
>>>> 100% of the time.
>>>> I am aimed at a car lighter and slower than a OEM gas
>>>> vehicle. It might even have better aero one day.
>>>> You didn't account for the reduced power-plant
>>>> emissions of reduced electrical use ( granted, perhaps
>>>> negligible in non-coal or nuclear states)
>>>> Gensets might be lighter than lead batteries, and no
>>>> more difficult to package. Certain the genset is not
>>>>heavier anyway...
>>>> Further, you yourself suggested using a clean auto
>>>> engine to make a home-built genset, and re-tuning it to
>>>> run at a constant low speed. I might opt for a smaller
>>>> MC engine with catalytic converter, since we don't have
>>>>micro-cars in our Super-sized country.
>>>> So I need to do some calcs based on the following
>>>>assumptions:
>>>> 1) genset starts running after batts drop to some
>>>> adjustable level, say 40% of usable charge to start
>>>> with. 2) genset runs at a high enough KW to limp home,
>>>> but not maintain 30 mph. 5kw is what I was thinking...
>>>>
>>>> Its a complicated prediction, so with my daily loop of
>>>> 25 miles and no re-charging en route, I'll start by
>>>> guesstimating the genset runs 50% of the time, subject
>>>> to real-world experience. If we could scrounge up a
>>>> free circuit at work, I might even be able to do
>without the genset altogether most days. But I think we are
>>>> maxed. So at genset 50% of the time the car returns
>>>> home needing a full recharge.
>>>>
>>>> All guesses to be sure. caveat emptor!
>>>>
>>>> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of
>>>> gasoline. My research shows that it gives no advantage
>>>> in greenhouse gases, but some large but as yet
>>>> unknown-to-me improvement in smog. I could always get a
>>>> small engine catalytic converter for it, assuming the
>chemistry is OK with propane. Alas, H2 storage is probably
>>>> a showstopper for now. Supply and storage are just too
>>>> darn expensive, even for the little motor.
>>>> Interestingly, a propane genset will probably convert
>>>> to H2 or a number of other fuel gases with ease, but
>>>>thats OT too.
>>>> Others might want to look at bio-fuels in diesel
>>>> gensets. That just doesn't fit my profile right now for
>>>>a bunch of OT reasons.
>>>> more later
>>>>
>>>> John Fisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Roden wrote:
>>>>> I've been taken to task for a somewhat dismissive
>>>>> response to a recent question or comment about genset
>>>>> APUs. So I thought that I would amend that response
>>>>> and provide some possibly useful information. Rather
>>>>> than repeating what's available in the archives
>>>>> already, however, I thought it might be worth adding
>>>>>some data to the discussion.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines
>> of legalistic junk at the end; then you are specifically
>> authorizing me to do whatever I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree
>> that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>
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