EV Digest 6660
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(UK DHLs Dept. Store 9tonne EV, 100mi Na/NiCl pack)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Regenerative Clamper
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Buying new batteries, maybe more
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) battery-electric flight
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The Costs of Racing EVs
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: battery-electric flight
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: The Costs of Racing EVs
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Oklahoma - Alternative Fuels Act
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery-electric flight
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EVLN(Actor Larry Hagman Drives An Electric Vehicle)
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) OK- Alternative Fuels Act - Beware, it could spread!
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(UK DHLs Dept. Store 9tonne EV, 100mi Na/NiCl pack)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/company-news/dhl/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=33700
UK : DHL Dept Stores & Fashion commissions high performance
electric vehicle
DHL Exel Supply Chain has commissioned the worlds largest high
performance electric vehicle and its first zero carbon emission
truck built almost entirely of recyclable materials. The purchase
of this new vehicle further supports the companys environmental
policy and highlights DHLs commitment to long-term
sustainability.
DHLs Department Stores and Fashion division has commissioned the
vehicle which was first initiated by the DHL Engineering
services. Both will officially unveil the zero carbon emission
Newton vehicle, designed and built by Smith Electric Vehicles, in
April 2007. It will be fitted with a unique aerodynamic body by
Cartwright Ltd. With a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) of 9 tonnes,
the Smith Newton will be the worlds largest higher function
electric vehicle.
The Newton truck incorporates the latest battery and drive train
technology for a high performance vehicle. It has five,
suitcase-sized Sodium Nickel Chloride batteries, which are far
lighter than lead acid batteries and have three times the energy
density.
This greater power capacity provides the Newton with fast
acceleration, a top speed of 50mph and the ability to cover over
100 miles on a single battery charge. Recharge of these new
technology batteries only takes between six to eight hours.
In the past, electric vans and trucks powered by old technology
lead acid batteries could only manage top speeds of around 20mph
and about 40 miles between charges. This new vehicle will be
ideally suited for the consolidation centre operations currently
used by DHL Exel Supply Chain that help to reduce road congestion
on multiple short distance routes.
Paul Richardson, Managing Director Department Stores & Fashion UK
and Europe said:
"DHL has taken the lead in promoting environmental sustainability
through supply chain innovation within the retail sector with the
development of our award winning retail consolidation centres at
Heathrow and Bristol City Centre. The consolidation centre
concept aims to reduce traffic and carbon emissions in congested
areas and provide retailers with a cost effective, time efficient
service."
"The investment of our first ever electric vehicle will help to
innovate the use of alternative fuels within DHL and makes a bold
step in shaping the future of the industry leading consolidation
centre model. Such vehicles can significantly further reduce the
carbon footprint, have a positive impact on our bottom line and
support our retailers demands for faster replenishment, at the
right price, in the right place."
Dave Bassett Head of Engineering at DHL initiated the vehicle
purchase as part of DHLs Environmental and Corporate
Responsibility policy which aims to reduce vehicle emissions
within the retail supply chain sector in the UK.
The vehicle is a Newton truck designed and built by Smith
Electric Vehicles and is the first in its class that can compete
with diesel equivalents in terms of performance but with zero
pollutant emissions. With the road freight industry one of the
sectors most under pressure to reduce its carbon emissions; this
is an important milestone for DHL.
[Source] DHL April 11, 2007
Copyright © 2007 All rights reserved by Sanblue Enterprises Pvt.
Ltd.
===
http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/images/newspdf/dhl_commissions_world_largest_high_performance_electric_veshicle_33700_70556.pdf
http://www.logisticsmanager.com/Articles/6627/DHL+buys+green.html
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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--- Begin Message ---
I wanted to insert my comments here since made this very thing work.
Rich Rudman wrote:
Because they would double the BOM cost of a Reg.. and The Regs are already
getting pretty spendy.
I can't comment on the BOM other than one should consider energy wasted
on charge and money spent to buy cooling hardware (sinks, fans) not
needed for converter type regs. And fans noise and mechanical failures.
BOM for DC-DCs certainly is higher but not double.
Plus.. those that have done Regen Regs.. really didn't get it right, The
effect was a lossy Dissapative reg that ran the batteries down while trying
to save some watts.
Good idea, not implimented right.
Simple math Rich: efficiency of very average DC-DC converter is, say,
70%. If it takes 10W from the batt, it returns 7W to the pack and waste
3W. Efficiency of dissipative reg is by definition 0%, it only wastes.
So even poor 50% efficient DC-DC is infinitely more efficient than
resistor. So one must *really* screw the design to get close to a
plain resistor efficiency.
Plus Regen regs by definition would need a high voltage buss to each Reg. So
you have to condsider that you now have full pack voltages on EVERY reg, and
the short circuit paths are right inside your device.
Not nesessairly. In my case each module boosts voltage to
intermediate 24V...48V bus running to each module, Then,
there is only one larger DC-DC converter which boosts this 48V
to the pack voltage, so no need to run high voltage to each battery.
This is in generic uncommitted BMS design - battery modules have comms
and logic drivers and you can plug in power modules: either dissipative
resistors or boost DC-DCs - customer's choice.
Nice idea.... spendy to make and impliment.
Sure. You get what you paid for. I must say that at this point this type
of hardware is very customer specific and money is in different places
in their priorities lists. For most people on this list, of course
money is high if not top priority.
There are Mk3 Sheer version Regs that do boost up the battery to the pack
voltages.. I am not sure where they are in development.
I long ago decided that the regen regs were not where a cost effective
design would start from.
This is one of those things where 20% more cost doubles performance,
but most don't want to spend extra 20% for purchase, so you're right.
'Course they learn their lessons by wasting much more later, but you
know how it goes. "Cheaper" demand is before "better" one.
Regen reg sure can be cost effective. It will just always be more
expensive than a resistor+fan.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee:
I was talking about regen capable systems. I didn't complain about Curtis
or any other controller. I was simply stating the fact, that there is
pretty much nothing decent available to offer an, IMHO, important and
useful feature like regen. Accept of course expensive AC systems and
Italian controllers with a pretty limited voltage range.
No problem to get an high amp racing controller though. But most vehicles
draw less than 400 A. They, as well as I, don't need Zillas (though they
are good and reasonably priced controllers) - regen would be a much more
useful feature.
mm.
> From: Michaela Merz
>> I tend to agree with you John. I personally think it is simply
>> _poor_ that after all those years, we still don't have access to
>> reasonably priced DC technology that offers regen.
>
> What does "reasonably priced" mean? A 300 watt PC clone power supply costs
> $30 -- that's 10 cents a watt. A Curtis 1221C 48kw controller (120v 400a)
> costs $1400 -- that's 3 cents a watt, or 1/3rd the price.
>
> It could be cheaper if built with Mexican labor rates and Chinese quality
> parts -- but would you still want it? And before this can happen, the
> market has to grow enough so there are enough customers to buy thousands
> of them -- not dozens.
>
>
>
> --
> "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
> doing it." -- Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> On 11 Apr 2007 at 17:05, Dale Ulan wrote:
>
>> Or why don't we have reasonably priced AC technology?
>
> Ah, but reasonable to whom?
>
> Suppose you're the designer who had just put many thousands of person-
> hours and a pile of dead, twisted silicon into designing that AC drive.
> You
> know you'll be lucky to sell more than a few hundred during its design
> lifetime. You're a small company and can't afford to sell it at a loss.
> What
> do you do?
Well, AFAIK the technology behind AC drives is pretty well understood. The
advances in embedded system technology would allow to do all the necessary
calculations in realtime, no 'inventing' necessary here. But even if the
development would be 50K or even 100K, a controller in the Zilla price
range would surely pay for the development and a profit. If would even be
possible to develop a system kind of as a combined effort within the list.
If I would have thought that it is impossible to duplicate a Unix
operating that had been created by very smart people in hundreds of
thousands of hours, I would have stopped working with and for Linux in
'94. And, please, don't start with 'it's only time, no material' - my time
is valuable, and if you burn too much silicone while trying to (re-)built
a controller you are probably doing something wrong in the first place.
mm/ - burning the midnight oil while trying to fix a device driver for Linux.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys should consider how much emissions a genset produces during
"normal" use, not if you run your EV *only* on the genset every day.
If I use genset for 500 miles trip once a year and do my normal EV
driving making 10,000 mile that year, total amount of generator
emissions I will put in the atmosphere *during this year* equals
whatever it will put out during 500 miles trip, but I made 10,000
miles in EV only mode. Total amount of emissions per usage (per mile)
may well be less than any ICE over the same amount of miles, that's
what counts.
Point is dirtiest genset if ran 1 min/year pollutes less than
any SULEV running whole year. Provided that 1 min/year fulfills
your needs, genset is better then.
For given trip genset is always worse than ICE in a first place,
there is no doubt about it, but gensets are not for continuous
use as ICEs are. I think this is where people make mistake.
Victor
Mike Chancey wrote:
Some more data points on fuel consumption on a Honda GX610 engine.
313 g/kWh (230 g/HPh, 0.51 lb/HPh) (from
http://www.tele-lite.com/viewProducts.asp?prodID=58 )
Gasoline @ full load…1.4 gallons per hour. (from
http://www.gohonda.com/Multi-fuel/lv105eiz.html )
1.4 gallons per hour full load works out to 42.85 MPG
I think the reality of the electrical conversion losses would knock this
out anyway.
The comparsion with pre-2001 emission standards:
270% more NMHC + NOx (3.7 times as much)
3800% more CO (39 times as much)
pretty much shuts it down for me, though one might hope the Honda engine
might be a bit cleaner than spec.
For all that weight, you might as well use a car engine and drive a
really big generator. Of course, there are always pushers, though they
are pretty much so far out on the fringe they will never be a common
solution,
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- Begin Message ---
> I am now going over 6 years with these batteries and the voltage is still in
> balance for 26 batteries of 0.01 and four a 0.02. According to the Trojan
> Maintenance Guild, it is recommended to balance these type of batteries when
> then get 5% out of balance or .05 x 6 = 0.3 volts if you stay above 50% DOD.
>
> Roland
Roland, it may be more appropriate to say how many miles a pack gets (after all,
*you* take 10 years to go as far as the average American does in less than 2).
In a typical conversion, a correctly watered-and-charged flooded pack usually
averages 20,000 miles, definitely less if done incorrectly. It is more
appropriate for *me* to have SLAs and let the Ranger's BMS watch over their
health than to develop your type of obsession! At least I don't drain them to
the point of getting caution lights (and there are plenty: solid yellow,
blinking yellow, blinking yellow plus solid red, and the dreaded blinking
yellow plus blinking red!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the effort Roger! Outstanding data.
Victor
Roger Stockton wrote:
I had written:
The tranny is full of fresh 75W90 gear oil, per the manual,
however, I've been advised that the manual is wrong and a GM
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just thought you guys might be interested.
http://www.electricppg.com/Developments/index.htm
there are people flying paragliders and hanggliders on battery power,
and there is even a competition coming up.
thats pretty impressive, IMO
next logical step: thin-film solar cells on top of the wings
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The best way to get a decent video project completed
is to have it storyboarded and a script completed
prior to shooting anything.
If you don't do that then you usually end up with
piles of tape, and no completed project.
Just my two cents, since I have a Master's degree in
TV Production.
Don't get hopes up too high.
Mike G.
Fairbanks, AK
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > We would love to have a team of professional
> videographers and
> > photographers swarming over the track for every
> run down the strip.
> > The reality is that we operate on a shoestring
> budget. We do the best
> > we can with the resources available to us.
> >
> >
>
> Ditto! Pretty much most of the WZ video stuff is
> done by helpful
> volunteers, or God forbid, myself with a video cam
> (mine are the videos
> where everything goes blurry and or you can see my
> feet instead of the
> car). The only great video we have, is when someone
> like SBS Dateline
> shows up, or we get lucky as we did at Woodburn in
> '05 when we had three
> EV friends with video cams, one getting the
> arcy-sparky burnout, another
> capturing the launch, and another at the far end
> showing the car
> approaching then passing at 104 mph...it's probably
> our best WZ drag
> racing video.
>
> I am looking forward to seeing what our young high
> school guys mix up as
> the final video from their class video project that
> was based around
> last month's Sunday afternoon drag races...4 cameras
> on that day,
> interviews, a mic on the track announcer, and music
> mixed in, too. Hope
> they got the fireball on tape! This was certainly a
> symbiotic
> relationship...the high school guys were hoping to
> find a cool 'subject'
> for their class video assignment, and I was hoping
> for video coverage a
> cut about the amateur stuff that is the norm. They
> got to video a unique
> electric drag car (that they can now boast to their
> peers is the 'one'
> from Car and Driver), and I got what looks like near
> professional grade
> camera work from four pumped-up guys with higher end
> video cams spending
> weeks on editing....sweet!
>
> Somewhere out there in cyber space, 'Pixel' has
> great video of my
> show-down with a green Ford Torino GT with massive
> fat wrinkle wall
> slicks. It was captured on professional video and
> includes outrageous
> side-by-side burnouts, lots of V8 noise and snort,
> excited race fans
> cheering, and a great grudge match run down the
> track...WZ the winner,
> of course! I've never seen this video, but I hope it
> surfaces some day.
>
> >
> > For example, each member of the pit crew (with
> access to the track)
> > at this AHDRA event cost me $90 out of my own
> pocket. We all pay our
> > own travel and food expenses. The KillaCycle team
> members pay for
> > everything but the batteries out of their own
> pockets.
> >
>
> Pretty much the same at the Plasma Boy racing camp,
> too. Yes, we are
> fortunate to get battery pack sponsorship, and yes,
> we get other
> substantial price breaks for other parts for the
> car, but like Bill
> says, there are costs that come out of our pockets
> as well...far more
> than most realize! Tim pays for his race entry fees,
> track membership
> fees, and often refuses to be reimbursed (by me) for
> fuel costs as we
> use his Dodge diesel pickup occasionally as a tow
> rig. I of course, pay
> for all the car's modification costs, show costs,
> and other things that
> include promo. The recent Portland Roadster show was
> a very important
> EVent I decided we needed to be part of...nearly
> $1000 out of my pocket,
> though that did include a substantial setup fee to
> get T-shirts made.
> Our trip last year across the USA to Illinois and
> back, even with most
> of our fuel costs covered by the group that invited
> us, still cost Tim
> and I some serious dollars. Even weekend trips to
> car shows in Seattle,
> after meals and fuel costs, run hundreds of dollars.
> The most recent
> mods to the car, even with sponsorship help in the
> form of deep
> discounts and some freebies, are still costing me
> over $1000.
>
> >We are ordinary folks with ordinary paychecks
> working full-time jobs while
> > doing all this in our "spare" time with our
> "spare" money. We are
> > doing the best that we can.
> >
> >
>
> Again, Ditto! I'm just a blue collar (actually, the
> uniforms are green)
> forklift mechanic who just wrote the final check to
> PSU for his
> daughter's collage tuition (she's about to graduate
> with honors). It's
> hard to squeeze out the extra dollars to pay to go
> racing, to fix broken
> stuff, and to buy something the car needs to go 1/10
> second quicker.
> When I hear comments like "Only rich guys can race
> and set
> records"...well, I just have to laugh.
>
> From Dennis:
>
> >I think a lot of folks here think we are
> >sponsored to race our fast EVs, but in reality we
> do pay out of our own pockets 99% of
> >the time.
> >
> >
>
> Dennis, I know exactly what you mean!
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I have a 98 metro and I was going to ad the synlube
gear oil, but Miro suggested I use the ATF:
http://www.synlube.com/prod02.htm
I'll let you know how it works
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I had written:
>
> > The tranny is full of fresh 75W90 gear oil, per
> the manual,
> > however, I've been advised that the manual is
> wrong and a GM
> > semi-synthetic lube is what should be in there.
> I'm
> > skeptical that the lube alone could be responsible
> for this
> > sort of loss, but since an oil change is easier
> than
> > rebuilding the tranny, I'll try that first ;^>
>
> As it turns out, it seems (from checking a partial
> bottle remaining in
> the garage) that the tranny is actually full of
> 80W90, not 75W90 as I
> originally wrote.
>
> I put the car on stands again (under the frame with
> the suspension at
> full droop since the suspension angle didn't seem to
> affect energy
> consumption in my earlier tests and I feel better
> with the stands under
> the frame when I'm going to be getting under the
> car).
>
> All following energy consumption observations are
> based on battery pack
> voltage and current as reported by my E-Meter.
>
> I spun the wheels in 2nd for a few minutes to warm
> things up first, then
> measured energy use in each gear at 40kph (except
> 1st, which was
> measured at 30kph):
>
> 5th 23.4A @ 123.5V (116.3Wh/mi or 72.2Wh/km)
> 4th 22.9A @ 123.0V (113.4Wh/mi or 70.4Wh/km)
> 3rd 25.5A @ 123.0V (126.2Wh/mi or 78.4Wh/km)
> 2nd 30.8A @ 121.5V (150.6Wh/mi or 93.6Wh/km)
> 1st 37.5A @ 121.5V (244.5Wh/mi or 151.9Wh/km)
>
> After draining the old fluid, I poured in a half
> litre or so of Varsol
> and spun the wheels for a minute or two to flush
> things out:
>
> 2nd 22.5A @ 123.0V (111.4Wh/mi or 69.2Wh/km)
>
> This was then drained, and the tranny filled with
> 2.5 litres of the
> recommended AC Delco Synchromesh fluid (p/n
> 89021808, IIRC):
>
> 5th 16.1A @ 123.0V (42kph, 75.9Wh/mi or
> 47.2Wh/km) (34.7% lower)
> 4th 17.0A @ 122.5V (42kph, 79.8Wh/mi or
> 49.6Wh/km) (29.6% lower)
> 3rd 19.7A @ 120.0V (42.5-43kph, 89.6Wh/mi or
> 55.6Wh/km) (29.0% lower)
> 2nd 22.4A @ 120.0V (39.5-40kph, 108.2Wh/mi or
> 67.2Wh/km) (28.9% lower)
> 1st 37.7A @ 118.0V (39kph, 183.7Wh/mi or
> 114.1Wh/km) (24.9% lower)
>
> So, going to the synthetic fluid definitely seems
> like a step in the
> right direction, however, not nearly as large a step
> as is required :(
>
> On the plus side, the 3rd-2nd downshift "crunch" is
> gone, which had been
> one of the touted benefits of using this tranny
> fluid.
>
> So, some progress, but the hunt for better
> efficiency continues...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The day they have electric intergalactic space travel is around the corner. :)
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:00:27 AM
Subject: battery-electric flight
just thought you guys might be interested.
http://www.electricppg.com/Developments/index.htm
there are people flying paragliders and hanggliders on battery power,
and there is even a competition coming up.
thats pretty impressive, IMO
next logical step: thin-film solar cells on top of the wings
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Grab your camera gear and go with me to the Wayland Invitational in Portland in
July. I'll help you film. Killacycle/White
Zombie Bust ICE, could make a neat little Docudrama :-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The Costs of Racing EVs
>
>
> The best way to get a decent video project completed
> is to have it storyboarded and a script completed
> prior to shooting anything.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any info as to how many certified EV technicians there are?
The legislative intent starts off fine, if you don't read further
than the first paragraph, it looks to you that OK really cares
to promote EVs and educate its people to become EV techs.
There is a little problem with the end of the first paragraph
..intent...ensures...health.
Now EVs are clean; the pollution from gas cars deteriorates health.
So the intent of the law is in direct conflict with the practice.
BTW - is there a curriculum from the State University to train as
EV tech? Otherwise it seems this law is void: no curriculum,
no certification - no way to qualify as there are no requirements
and nobody to qualify prospect techs.
So, the "work of an EV tech" may not have any practical meaning
in today's reality....
Alternative is to declare your EV a farm vehicle for the duration
of the EV work <g>.
"Honestly, judge, the vehicle was presented to me as farm vehicle,
so I did not know that I could not work on it. If I would have
know that it would be registered for Highway use, I would not have
installed its electric drive system with 11" motor and Z2k.
I thought it was going to be an offroad truck like all SUVs that
you see all around you every day.
Those are also not supposed to be designed for Highway use, nor
intended for passenger transport, as they are treated as farm
vehicles, including tax writeoffs."
Law is supposed to be clear, fair and just, but sometimes it
makes me sick. Probably the influence of the people that
helped create those laws.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Barkley
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT: Oklahoma - Alternative Fuels Act
Here's some snips from the Alternative Fuels Act regarding EV's. When I
found this out, I was really upset with Oklahoma. If there's an attorney in
the group, can some OKIES, get some advice? I could private you the entire
statute. I think it's the only state that has done this. This is stated
in Statues: 74-130.12 through 74-130.24:
§74-130.12. Legislative intent.
It is the intent of the Oklahoma Legislature that the State Board of
Career and Technology Education develop curriculum for the training of
technicians for the installation and conversion of engines to be fueled by
alternative fuels as the technologies are developed. It is further the
intent of the Oklahoma Legislature that Oklahoma State University/Okmulgee
develop curriculum for the training of technicians for the installation,
service, modification, repair or renovation of fill stations. It is further
the intent of the Oklahoma Legislature to enact legislation which promotes
the development of technology in a manner that ensures the health and safety
of the citizens of this state.
Examinations for certification as electric vehicle technicians shall be
uniform and practical in nature for electric vehicle technician
certification and shall be sufficiently strict to test the qualifications
and fitness of the applicants for certificates.
Beginning November 1, 1998, it shall be unlawful for any person to perform
the work or offer, by advertisement or otherwise, to perform the work of an
electric vehicle technician until such person has qualified and is certified
as an electric vehicle technician. Electric vehicles that have a
manufacturer's warranty shall be serviced by an authorized new car dealer.
Any vehicle manufacturer's training center located in the state, which
offers alternative fuel and electric vehicle courses meeting new car
manufacturing requirements, shall be exempted from this act. Provided,
nothing in the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act shall be
construed to prohibit a noncertified person from converting the engine of a
farm tractor, as defined in Section 1-118 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma
Statutes, to an engine fueled by alternative fuels, as long as such farm
tractor is not operated on the roads and highways of this state.
The Department of Central Services shall issue a certificate as an
electric vehicle technician to any person who:
1. Has been certified by the Committee as either having successfully
passed the appropriate examination or having a valid license or certificate
issued by another governmental entity with licensing or certification
requirements similar to those provided in the Alternative Fuels Technician
Certification Act;
2. Has paid the certification fee and otherwise complied with the
provisions of the Alternative Fuels Technician Certification Act; and
3. Has provided proof of liability insurance with limits of not less than
Fifty Thousand Dollars ($50,000.00) general liability.
§74-130.23. Violations - Criminal penalties.
Any person convicted of violating any provision of the Alternative Fuels
Technician Certification Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. The
continued violation of any provision of the Alternative Fuels Technician
Certification Act during each day shall be deemed to be a separate offense.
Upon conviction thereof the person shall be punished by imprisonment in the
county jail not to exceed one (1) year, or by a fine of not more than One
Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment for each
offense. The Alternative Fuels Technician Hearing Board may request the
appropriate district attorney to prosecute such violation and seek an
injunction against such practice.
Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I wonder if its just a business certification to make sure you don't build
something that will kill someone. How does one become a "certified" EV
converter anyway? That must mean those states have someone who is qualified
to "certify" people. hmm, I wonder
;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 10:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Regen wiring idea/question
>
>
> Just for my info:
> How is the law forbidding an EV conversion?
>
> Just trying to see if the state law is not in violation with higher
> laws, making it null and void... Would not be the first time.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130 Second Life:
> www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/12/07, Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The day they have electric intergalactic space travel is around the corner. :)
Well, ESA ( thats european space agency ) sent a SMART-1 probe, using
solar-electric ion propulsion to orbit the moon last year ... so maybe
:)
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dodge, (actually Chrysler), bought, a few years ago, Global Electric Motors,
(GEM), that was producing the glorified golf carts that were registered as
NEVs and regulated to about 25mph even though they were legal on roads up to
35mph - I had a 2002 and was pleased to sell after struggling with it for
about a year - it was really only good on roads up to 25mph as it would not
come close to the 35mph speed limit for which it was licensed and horns
would blast at me putt-putting at 20-25mph on a 35mph road - I consider such
vehicles a detriment to shifting people's attitudes about EVs, as they seem
so limited in their capacity - it actually, though, would be a great vehicle
for one who lives on a private estate as is likely Hagman's situation -
also, though, the GEM did not handle hills well at all - nonetheless, after
Chrysler bought out GEM and started putting its badge on that next
generation, I had heard from the GEM tech that the majority of GEM people
were laid off and Chrysler did little if anything to support the idea of
these vehicles - at least that was his feeling - certainly, though, kudos to
Hagman : )
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
Andy Mars, Ph.D.
"Helping make a difference in the lives of kids - helping kids make a
difference in life."
Educational Consulting, Counseling, & Tutoring
www.Perpend.org
New Private School Opening in About Two Years
www.MarsAcademy.org
Enriching Individualized Summer School
www.MarsSPACE.org
Summer & Winter Camps
www.CampExploration.org
Weekend Community Service Projects
www.KidsMakeADifference.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:39 PM
Subject: EVLN(Actor Larry Hagman Drives An Electric Vehicle)
EVLN(Actor Larry Hagman Drives An Electric Vehicle)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ecorazzi.com/?p=2169
Larry Hagman Has A Solar Farm, Drives An Electric Vehicle
Filed under: green and famous, campaigns, transport
- michael @ 12:19 pm
Anyone who has ever watched I Dream Of Jeannie or Dallas will
instantly recognize Larry Hagman. His career has spanned several
television shows and movies, but he's probably best recognized as
the bumbling astronaut or the ruthless oil baron, J.R. Ewing.
Anyways, Hagman is also quite the green celebrity. According to
his website, "Larry has three gorgeous solar arrays on his
property in Ojai, drives a Toyota Prius Hybrid car and an
electric Dodge Gem, and uses alternative energy sources when ever
possible."
I never heard of the Dodge Gem, but apparently it gets about 35
miles per charge and plugs in to any standard outlet. We have no
idea if Hagman's property is off grid (we'll leave it to the
experts to figure that one out) but it's safe to say the guy was
very ahead of his time with green energy. It also lends credence
to his values being genuine and not something representative of
the times.
One of the major projects being supported by Hagman presently is
Refunds for Good. As mentioned previously, the campaign directs
people on how to claim telephone tax refunds and then give that
money to various environmental causes. Hagman is especially vocal
about supporting the Solar Electric Light Fund (SELF); which
brings renewable solar energy to developing countries. He's been
working with the group for over 10 years now and sees Refunds for
Good as a great way to help out.
Hit their site for more information on how you can claim your
phone tax refund and contribute to some worthy green causes.
Additional celebrity support includes Ed Begley. Jr., The Daily
Show's Nate Corddry, and Martin Sheen.
WordPress, Ecorazzi Copyright 2006
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.2.0/756 - Release Date: 4/10/2007
10:44 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably for the same reason most folks who need extra range choose a
series APU, it's simple.
I.e. it is simple to add an APU to an EV and Voila' range extending series
hybrid.
Parallel hybrids offer higher efficiency, but can be much more
complicated. Especially in a production vehicle where it all has to be
seamless to monkey behind the wheel.
Plus, I'll bet most of the really good ways of doing parallel hybrids are
currently patented.
Since series hybrids date back about 100 years (Porsche built one sometime
around WW1) any patents on them have long since run out.
> I would love to continue this train of thought off-list with anyone who
> wants to but Im afraid I may be infringing on list rules with ICE talk
> :) This is a key component of my conversion so I would rather the theory
> be disproved now rather then later. Thanks a lot. But BTW, if series
> hybrid is so bad, how does the Volt plan on pulling it off? Thank,
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:54 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
>
> On 10 Apr 2007 at 11:58, childreypa wrote:
>
>> However, what if you were to run a generator using a
>> driver designed with efficiency and greenness in mind. Say a 1.0L Geo
>> metro engine. Running at constant rpm, powering an efficient
> generator,
>> I hypothesize that it would be possible to get just as good gpm as the
>> metro and still have the all electric capability provided the ICE was
>> mounted in the vehicle.
>
> I think you'll have trouble achieving that goal, particularly if you
> also want
> comparable exhaust cleanliness.
>
> Running an automotive ICE at a constant speed, and tuning it for that
> speed,
> made a big difference 30 or 40 years ago when ICEs were fitted with
> fixed- jet
> carburetors, and the sum of their adjustment for varying speeds and
> loads
> was vacuum and centrifugal ignition advance. In those days, series
> hybrids
> could actually produce improved mpg by leveling the load on the engine,
> so it
> could be optimized for that load.
>
> Today ICEs have computers that listen to rather sophisticated sensors,
> monitoring operating conditions. The computers control electronic fuel
> injection, ignition timing, and even valve timing. They are very good
> at
> maximizing efficiency at varying speeds and loads.
>
> In modern ICEs, there's little if anything to be gained by fixed-speed
> operation. Any gain is likely to at least be offset by the losses in
> energy
> conversion to electricity. This makes it difficult for series hybrids
> to beat the
> original ICE, let alone a parallel hybrid.
>
> Someone pointed out that AC Propulsion's Honda Civic conversion could
> make 35 mpg on the highway with its genset trailer. That's pretty good
> -
> you'd expect no less from a smart engineer like Alan Cocconi. However,
> a
> Honda Civic VX ICE - same vintage as his conversion - can easily hit 50
> mpg
> on the highway (it's EPA rated at 56 mpg).
>
> Furthermore, Cocconi's range extender trailer used a motorcycle engine.
>
> One matter I've never seen discussed (I may have just missed it) is the
> emissions profile of that APU in grams per mile. I'd be surprised (and
> pleasantly so) if it were as clean as the Honda Civic ICE it replaced.
>
> Emissions control hardware (or the lack thereof) aside, keep in mind the
>
> problem of controlling emissions in an engine that's frequently shut
> down and
> restarted. Every restart means higher exhaust emissions until the
> control
> system again warms up and stabilizes. The quasi-hybrids from Toyota and
> Honda would get even better mpg if they didn't have to program the
> computers to watch out for this issue. Getting the catalytic converter
> up to
> temperature and keeping it there is a priority for these cars -
> especially the
> Toyota, which aims for PZEV classification. (I think they keep their
> oxygen
> sensors warm electrically, but I'm not 100% sure.)
>
> Bottom line : if you want to maximize your transportation efficiency, at
> least
> in the dimension of fuel usage and per-mile energy efficiency, you
> should
> have two vehicles in your household - an EV for short trips, and an ICE
> for
> longer ones. (Actually, a bicycle or even an e-bike in the mix would
> improve
> the efficiency even more.) The next best strategy (perhaps more
> practical for
> some, especially singles) is a parallel hybrid. A series hybrid will be
> much
> further down the list.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Any info as to how many
certified EV technicians there are?
*** Not sure how many techs there are, I've never seen one or a shop that
will convert a car for you. I've looked at some of the meeting minutes of the
Alternative Fuels Committee, pretty lame, doesn't seem to be very active in
anything at this time.
The legislative intent starts off fine, if you don't read further
than the first paragraph, it looks to you that OK really cares
to promote EVs and educate its people to become EV techs.
There is a little problem with the end of the first paragraph
..intent...ensures...health.
Now EVs are clean; the pollution from gas cars deteriorates health.
So the intent of the law is in direct conflict with the practice.
BTW - is there a curriculum from the State University to train as
EV tech? Otherwise it seems this law is void: no curriculum,
no certification - no way to qualify as there are no requirements
and nobody to qualify prospect techs.
*** Yes, the Legislature, interestingly has worked out a program with a place
in Del City, Okla. that offers a course. So I've got to spend money that I
could have put into my conversion for a College course, Time off work,
Food&Lodging, as I don't live anywhere near there, and a Fee to the State for
the License, and oh don't forget the $50,0000 insurance bond. I just want to
build an EV, and if someone else wants to build one, help them out if they want
it, for FREE.
So, the "work of an EV tech" may not have any practical meaning
in today's reality....
Alternative is to declare your EV a farm vehicle for the duration
of the EV work .
"Honestly, judge, the vehicle was presented to me as farm vehicle,
so I did not know that I could not work on it. If I would have
know that it would be registered for Highway use, I would not have
installed its electric drive system with 11" motor and Z2k.
I thought it was going to be an offroad truck like all SUVs that
you see all around you every day.
Those are also not supposed to be designed for Highway use, nor
intended for passenger transport, as they are treated as farm
vehicles, including tax writeoffs."
*** I love the above statement..... period!
Law is supposed to be clear, fair and just, but sometimes it
makes me sick. Probably the influence of the people that helped create those
laws.
*** Folks, I want you all to be aware, of what could happen in your STATE, if
you don't monitor things closely, as this sort of thing will probably spread
like a computer virus before you know it. If I had posted the entire text of
this Act, you'd be ready to punch holes in the wall. If you have some time and
want to read it go to:
http://www.dcs.state.ok.us/OKDCS.NSF/htmlmedia/alternative_fuels.html
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
