EV Digest 6661
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zener reg question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Regen wiring idea/question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) motor / go-cart pics
by "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Free Electravan
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Sales/Use tax collection in California for EV conversion
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sales/Use tax collection in California for EV conversion
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Regenerative Clamper
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Free Electravan
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Sprint/Metro Drivetrain losses
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> You guys should consider how much emissions a genset produces during
> "normal" use, not if you run your EV *only* on the genset every day.
> If I use genset for 500 miles trip once a year and do my normal EV
> driving making 10,000 mile that year, total amount of generator
> emissions I will put in the atmosphere *during this year* equals
> whatever it will put out during 500 miles trip, but I made 10,000
> miles in EV only mode. Total amount of emissions per usage (per mile)
> may well be less than any ICE over the same amount of miles, that's
> what counts.
We are considering that. Since the typical small engine (the type used in
lawn mowers and generators) produces 100 times as much pollution in 1 hour
as an SUV does, using your generator for 500 miles produces as much
pollution as driving an SUV for 50,000 miles.
The typical generator is really that bad, and the typical SUV is really
that good. Modern emmissions controlls are pretty amazing compared to
what they were just 30 years ago.
>
> Point is dirtiest genset if ran 1 min/year pollutes less than
> any SULEV running whole year. Provided that 1 min/year fulfills
> your needs, genset is better then.
Except that I don't think it does. Well, it probably produces less CO2,
but in every other way it probably produces MORE pollution.
As impressive as modern ICEs are, SULEVs are simply incredible.
>
> For given trip genset is always worse than ICE in a first place,
> there is no doubt about it, but gensets are not for continuous
> use as ICEs are. I think this is where people make mistake.
>
> Victor
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just found an interesting artical on EVworld.
According to it, the cleanest burning motorcycle produces 100 times as
much pollution as a Toyota Prius.
I'm thinking that an APU based on a motorcycle engine is going to have a
really hard time beating even an SUV when it comes to emissions.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Echo Victor!
On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:14:17 -0700, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the effort Roger! Outstanding data.
>
> Victor
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>> I had written:
>>
>>> The tranny is full of fresh 75W90 gear oil, per the manual,
>>> however, I've been advised that the manual is wrong and a GM
> ...
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/12/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You might try putting it in neutral and seeing how much power the motor
takes to spin just itself and the input to the tranny.
The gears in the gearbox are all still in engagement and turning
whether it's in neutral or not. This is why it has a similar, and
noticeable, amount of drag.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Randy Burleson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A typical genny, even one of the new OHV 4-stroke inverter gennies,
> are not especially efficient or clean.
Which doesn't mean that we can't do better -- *IF* efficiency or
cleanliness happens to be the goal. Some folks may just be looking to
make that extra few miles of their commute. There's lots of rationale
not to do it, but precious little *recent* experimentation.
> I've read about technology that scans the road looking for emissions
> cheats, I don't know if it's actually in use though.
FWIW, this is *real* and California is using it, but it is also pretty
isolated. I see it about twice a year around Sacramento.
Randii
I believe that efficiency can be made a lot better with a permanent magnet
alternator like is used on homemade windmills. Anyone who can convert an EV
has the skills to make one of these. Also things can be done such as running
at a higher temperature, using thinner synthetic oil, etc. Add a heated cat
and it shouldn't be TOO bad. After all, it's not for daily use right?
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Lee:
I was talking about regen capable systems. I didn't complain about Curtis
or any other controller. I was simply stating the fact, that there is
pretty much nothing decent available to offer an, IMHO, important and
useful feature like regen. Accept of course expensive AC systems and
Italian controllers with a pretty limited voltage range.
Well, I have a Curtis 1221R (R means it has regen) in for repair at the
moment. There is almost no difference between it and a standard Curtis
-- the usual small control board is replaced with two slightly larger
boards. The extra parts might add 5% to the manufacturing cost of the
controller. Externally, you need a couple more big contactors; they
represent most of the cost of adding regen.
It appears that Curtis found that the market for a regen controller was
so small that it wasn't worth producing it. Maybe they sell 100 on-road
EV controllers a year, and regen controllers was only 10% of that. It's
not worth marketing a product that sells in that low a volume. So the
last I heard, they only make them for special orders where the customer
is willing to pay for an entire production run.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Lee Hart
"I'd measure the voltage across each battery when you see the lamps at
different brightnesses. You should find that the dimmer one is at a
lower voltage, evidence that it is taking more charging current to
reach the same state of charge as the other two."
Frank John wrote:
Lee, this is what I've done and the most positive battery is always
.1 volt lower than the middle battery which is always .1 volt lower
than the most negative battery.
There is no intrinsic reason why batteries at one end of a series string
are any different than any others. Any differences you see are from
things like tapping the pack, temperature or other unintended difference
between batteries, or excessive leakage currents from dirty batteries, etc.
The other point you may have missed is that there are *always*
differences between batteries. You can't totally eliminate them by
equalizing or any other process. The regulator's lamps will *always* end
up at different brightnesses, proportional to how large thense intrinsic
difference between your batteries are.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Barkley wrote:
Let me say first off, I know what you are gonna say, "Why in the
world are you using a G29 Aircraft Generator for a motor?" It was
$180.00 and my first EV conversion; please overlook it.
The same reason I used one for my first EV -- price! :-)
Here's my question. Since this generator/motor will produce voltage
when I'm coasting downhill (clutchless EV), could I use a 400amp
diode and a contactor to route that voltage back to the battery pack?
I'd engage the regen contactor with the brake pedal switch...
Yes, that works. In my contactor controller without the diode, I found
that my accelerator pedal worked like a cruise control. Holding the
pedal in a constant position meant constant speed, up hill or down hill,
drawing high currents or producing large regen currents as needed as the
motor tried to maintain speed. It works, but it's a strange feeling,
totally different from a normal car's accelerator pedal.
I later added two big diodes and contactors; one for motoring and one
for regen. Pressing the accelerator powered the "motor" contactor,
letting current flow from batteries to motor, but prevented regen.
Pressing the brake pedal powered the "regen" contactor to allow regen,
but no motoring.
Note that with these generators, you have to control the field current
to control regen voltage and current.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some pictures of the motor and the go-cart frame that I am building
that it is going on:
<http://nnytech.net/~martin/pics/gocart/>
Unfortunately I don't have any pics of the new motor front-plate or shaft
adapter yet.
--
Martin Klingensmith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw the Electravan. It is rough but no rougher than my Electravan was
when I got it. EVen in out dry environment the bottom of both fenders had
rust at the bottoms. However the back battery box is intact with no rust
from acid drip. Mine had several holes. It is mostly there. Needs new
windshield. No motor or transmission. The body is straight. Taking this
for free will save mega time in EV construction. It EVen has the
highvoltage cables to the rear box intact. This is a durable vehicle. I'd
run not walk into this project. It's all setup for electric conversion.
It's located in Berkeley. Call number below for details Don't contact me
unless you have questions of the physical condition. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- Amber Rich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:26:06 -0700
> From: "Amber Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: ElectraVan Body
>
> Hi,
>
> We have an old ElectraVan body (motor has been taken
> apart over the
> years). It is in pretty rough shape. We would love
> to have it
> working for our organization, but we don't have the
> time or resources
> to do so, thus we are looking to get rid of the
> body. It may be that
> it just has to be sent to the scrap yard, but I
> wanted to check and
> see if someone out there might be able to make use
> of it since it
> seems to be a great moment in EV history, and
> hopefully just a
> beginning.
>
> We appreciate any advice that you may have.
>
> Amber Rich
> Executive Director
> Tinkers Workshop
> 510 644 2577
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I'm wondering, does one need to collect sales tax on conversion services in CA?
Since it's basically remanufacturing a car.
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Almost all hydrogen produced today is made from fossil fuels, IIRC primarily
from Natural Gas.
If you are planning on using H2 to power hybrid EV, and you are concerned
about the pollution, you might also look into how much (if any) pollution
is generated converting NG to H2.
same argument applies to BEVs doesn't it? Look there is no one right way to get away from the petro-pollution cycle. Its
virtually impossible to do it 100% today on a middle-class budget, though there are some fringes where people live on
sustainable power, theres just not very many compared to the number who would like to. There's going to be lots of
different clean technologies, and BEVs are just one. IMO there's going to be a lot of unhappy conservation too, if
trends continue. ( bye bye jacuzzi and air conditioning for instance)
BTW EVs listed as worst possible vehicle for sulfur dioxide emissions, but
best for most others, including greenhouse gases.
Only when coal powered. Currently the majority of on-road EVs reside in
states where Hydropower dominates.
hydro and also geothermal both have negative environmental consequences, as does wind power. Theres no free lunch. Some
lunches are better or cheaper than others.
EVs have the advantage of the potential for running on pure renewable
and/or non-polluting energy sources. I.e. they can run on sunshine, wind,
and/or rain.
same argument applies to hydrogen, carbon-neutral bio-fuels, ammonia, and whatever else comes down the pike. It all
depends on the process. Some people have an emotional attachment or repulsion to some technologies, see fear of nukes
and love for lead-acid batteries for two examples.
Hmm, not that riding a bicycle is a bad idea. Far from it, it's probably
the least polluting and healthy method of transport possible.
yup. or walking.
The ultra-light idea has a lot of merit. I'd stay away from the quadra
cycle however, since it's difficult to do that legally.
I think all this talk of "legality" is just spreading FUD.
For people who do not know their local regulations, the advice to check them is
wise.
Many different configurations can be licensed, and regulations are notoriously irrational for home builders. However
Federal regulations ( as opposed to State) are mostly inapplicable, or easily bypassed, for home builders. Dealers and
repair shops do have to follow the rules. There is no Federal enforcement mechanism for individuals AFAIK. But, I don't
think anyone here wants to disconnect their emission controls anyway.
Lets stick to advising people to check their local regs.
That said, very few here are venturing beyond OEM conversions, so none of this is relevant. I'll keep my talk about
platforms down to a minimum.
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ON a full conversion yes, on the sale price of the car. If you do a
conversion on the owners existing car then you need to collect tax on
the parts sold to them, labor is usually non-taxable. There are other
fees that apply to autos so you need to check with the CA BOE.
Mark
On Apr 12, 2007, at 9:10 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi all,
I'm wondering, does one need to collect sales tax on conversion
services in CA? Since it's basically remanufacturing a car.
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Regenerative Clamper
>
> Regen reg sure can be cost effective. It will just always be more
> expensive than a resistor+fan.
>
> Victor
> \
Exactly my point Victor
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
> I have a 98 metro and I was going to ad the synlube
> gear oil, but Miro suggested I use the ATF:
>
> http://www.synlube.com/prod02.htm
>
> I'll let you know how it works
Thanks, I look forward to hearing how you make out with that. Is your
Metro electric? If so, and if its not too much trouble, could you note
some before and after energy usage figures while you have the car on
stands to change the lube? It would be great to be able to compare our
figures to see if what I've observed with my car is typical or abysmal
;^>
My concern would be that ATF may be too "slippery" for proper operation
of the synchros in a manual tranny. The GM semi-synthetic lube is
highly recommended by the Sprint/Metro users group over pretty much
anything else available, and one of the main reasons is that it
significantly improves the shifting (which I can now also confirm
firsthand). The GM fluid is said to be a semi-synthetic 5W30 with
additives specifically to improve its suitability for use in transaxles.
The GM/AC Delco lube is *significantly* cheaper than the SynLube ATF
you're considering, and is readily available off-the-shelf from any GM
dealer as well as some auto parts stores (which I understand may be
cheaper than a dealer). The 3 litres I bought at a local GM dealer cost
me about the same as one litre of the SynLube ATF lists for... 'course,
when it only takes 3 litres to do the job it isn't really that important
what the per-litre cost is.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm... that's interesting.
The Electravan motor/trans combo on the evtradinpost.com just happens to be in
Berkeley also.
Wish I was in Berkeley. Nah, not really. I like it here.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:01:50 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I saw the Electravan. It is rough but no rougher than my Electravan was
> when I got it. EVen in out dry environment the bottom of both fenders had
> rust at the bottoms. However the back battery box is intact with no rust
> from acid drip. Mine had several holes. It is mostly there. Needs new
> windshield. No motor or transmission. The body is straight. Taking this
> for free will save mega time in EV construction. It EVen has the
> highvoltage cables to the rear box intact. This is a durable vehicle.
> I'd
> run not walk into this project. It's all setup for electric conversion.
> It's located in Berkeley. Call number below for details Don't contact
> me
> unless you have questions of the physical condition. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
>
>
>
> --- Amber Rich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:26:06 -0700
>> From: "Amber Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: ElectraVan Body
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We have an old ElectraVan body (motor has been taken
>> apart over the
>> years). It is in pretty rough shape. We would love
>> to have it
>> working for our organization, but we don't have the
>> time or resources
>> to do so, thus we are looking to get rid of the
>> body. It may be that
>> it just has to be sent to the scrap yard, but I
>> wanted to check and
>> see if someone out there might be able to make use
>> of it since it
>> seems to be a great moment in EV history, and
>> hopefully just a
>> beginning.
>>
>> We appreciate any advice that you may have.
>>
>> Amber Rich
>> Executive Director
>> Tinkers Workshop
>> 510 644 2577
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had an '87 Chevy Cavalier Wagon. The lube for the 4 speed manual transmission
was spec'd by GM to be Dexron II ATF. I got rid of it before becoming "EV
enlightened". I would convert it in a heartbeat if I still had it. In fact, if
any of you desert dwellers know of a good 84-85 cavalier or sunbird wagon
glider, drop me a line. ....like I need another f-ng project ;-)
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:52:02 -0700, "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mike golub wrote:
>
>> I have a 98 metro and I was going to ad the synlube
>> gear oil, but Miro suggested I use the ATF:
>>
>> http://www.synlube.com/prod02.htm
>>
>> I'll let you know how it works
>
> Thanks, I look forward to hearing how you make out with that. Is your
> Metro electric? If so, and if its not too much trouble, could you note
> some before and after energy usage figures while you have the car on
> stands to change the lube? It would be great to be able to compare our
> figures to see if what I've observed with my car is typical or abysmal
> ;^>
>
> My concern would be that ATF may be too "slippery" for proper operation
> of the synchros in a manual tranny. The GM semi-synthetic lube is
> highly recommended by the Sprint/Metro users group over pretty much
> anything else available, and one of the main reasons is that it
> significantly improves the shifting (which I can now also confirm
> firsthand). The GM fluid is said to be a semi-synthetic 5W30 with
> additives specifically to improve its suitability for use in transaxles.
>
> The GM/AC Delco lube is *significantly* cheaper than the SynLube ATF
> you're considering, and is readily available off-the-shelf from any GM
> dealer as well as some auto parts stores (which I understand may be
> cheaper than a dealer). The 3 litres I bought at a local GM dealer cost
> me about the same as one litre of the SynLube ATF lists for... 'course,
> when it only takes 3 litres to do the job it isn't really that important
> what the per-litre cost is.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An environmental writer and advocate, (sort of the Vancouver Islands own
David Suzuki) wrote me saying that, something like, if this technology can
be proofed by battery experts, also as being cost-effective, then it would be
big news indeed. I wrote asking him, but which battery experts? For one
thing, weve already shipped thousands of non-rechargeable lithiums all over
the world batteries that Scientific American and Battery University (the
experts) deem to be impossible to revive. How, then, can battery experts
admit that lithium battery revival is even possible, when battery companies
state on their labels, will explode, when recharged. So, which experts? Were
the only sellers of revived batteries on an online auction site that have a
positive feedback that can be seen by everyone. Weve even shipped revived
wheelchair batteries (exactly like the ones in our pickup EV) from northern BC
to Brooklyn, NY. Read our feedbacks. Consumers are experts, too,
aren't they?
How about the cost-study suggested by the environmental advocate? Well, no one
said, lets do a three-year cost study when we gave away thousands of dollars
worth of revived wheelchair batteries in Vancouver, from MP Libby Davies
office, and three other locations. No one said, lets do a cost study when we
donated thousands of revived batteries for Vancouver libraries, bike lane
openings, and the Christmas Wish Breakfast fund-raiser, and many other events.
And, why do we need to do a three-year cost-study, when the cost of a dead
battery is zero, or nearly zero? What would we learn from a three-year
cost-study, anyway: That, perhaps, the three-year cost of a zero-cost battery,
well, um, is zero.
Revived batteries arent new to us: Weve been doing them for over three years,
on our electric scooters and ebikes. Weve merely transferred the knowledge to
four-wheelers, with its longer battery-string and accompanying complexity. Just
goggle revived batteries and check it out yourself. Do you think we need a
three-year cost-study? While the planet burns and Kiribati sinks deeper into
the sea?
As a people, should we attend more rallies and protests against global warming
and hear environmentalist talk about the need for action? In my opinion,
complaining does little, unless we have a real-hardware option. The car and oil
oligopolies companies arent going to give us a real-hardware option, if Ralph
Nader is right. So, lets stop complaining, and make our own, real-hardware
option, EVs that run at a tiny fraction the cost of gasoline. My dad would
probably say, 'if the car companies won't give you real hardware, just make
your own real low-cost EV.'
Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes that is my understanding too,
that as the battery ages the plates
corrode and expand, this is a normal part of the aging process and does
not mean the battery is bad. Deep discharges and excessive overcharging
speed up this process and in some cases also cause shorts to develop.
Nothing directly to do with failed valves. If the valves ever open you
are charging the battery too hard and the venting causes irreplaceable
loss of water - again leading to another different failure mode.
The example of a EV bike dealer complaining the valves don't open and
implying the bulging batteries have been killed due to this needs to do
some homework and probably needs to find a better battery charger to
sell their clients. Cheap chargers over charge the batteries, cause
corrosion, bulging, shorts and if the valves open dry out the
electrolyte and kill the battery before it's time. Uneducated riders
over discharge their batteries causing sulfation, loss of plate area and
kill the battery before it's time. Put the two together and you have a
very dissatisfied customer!
All lead acid batteries eventually fail due to one or both of plate
corrosion, sulfation and loss of water. These lead to loss of active
material or active surface area and ether the battery looses so much
capacity it is useless for it's intended purpose or develops an internal
short and can no longer hold a charge. Careful charging and with non
sealed batteries watering will give you the maximum life but there comes
a time when you have too look the batteries in the eye and say 'you have
been a good and true friend but it's time to move on to the next phase
in the great cycle of life' :-) and look for the nearest recycling depot.
There has been much discussion of various magic formula to slow down or
reverse some of these processes but no one in all the years I have
watched this group has ever shown any demonstrative proof that anything
but TLC can extend the life of a lead acid battery and nothing has ever
been demonstrated that can revive a dead battery to a point that it
could be returned to useful service in and EV. There has been lots of
talk but never any rigorous data.
I would encourage Robert to discuss his 'no cost batteries for EV' in a
detailed posting but I truly believe that he is just picking the OK
batteries from a pile of suspect ones, charging them individually and
then doing the re-use part of the three R's and hence slightly reducing
the number of batteries that need to be purchased over time. The
trouble is the cost of keeping an mismatched odd ball pack of batteries
in line is costly in either electronics or manual labor or both.
Lawrence Harris
robert mat wrote:
> Also, on VRLAs (sealed) on ebikes, my guess is that the valves aren't
> releasing. Very cheap build, and mfg cheated by not putting in valves, imho,
> like on the Raylight ebikes. Raylight vendor told me 100% of his batteries
> bulged at the end of battery life.
>
>
>
> David Roden wrote: I think this results from positive grid corrosion -
> typically a symptom of
> chronic overcharging.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
> by climate change. May be one solution:
> Newspapers and TV news coverage of
> our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
> solving global warming and pollution at once..
> http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
>
The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. May be one solution:
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
solving global warming and pollution at once..
http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors for
example, but UQM isnt selling.
<snip>
Actually they are selling, but their prices are insane for one set of
motor and controller, what they call a 'sample', costs $21k+
Maybe someone could make a friend at Phoenix and get some for the list
at their cost. :-)
--T
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--- Begin Message ---
Marcin,
Thanks for your help on this...
--Steve
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 22:01 +0200, Marcin Ciosek wrote:
> I'm working right now on Peukert's equation for 216216 series (it's NCM based
> high power, high capacity). When I'll have this numbers I'll be happy to
> share.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marcin
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On 4/12/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors for
> example, but UQM isnt selling.
<snip>
Actually they are selling, but their prices are insane for one set of
motor and controller, what they call a 'sample', costs $21k+
Maybe someone could make a friend at Phoenix and get some for the list
at their cost. :-)
I seriously think that it would be easier to convince either Hacker,
Lehner, MaxCim or any of the large RC builders to do a custom batch
for EV list.
The problem is, there are no off the shelf inverters ( apart from
industrial ones ) to run them, and more importantly, it would be
impossible to reach a concensus on the exact details of the motors (
KWs, poles, windings for trapezoidal BEMF or sinusoidal .. bearings
and so on )
-kert
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--- Begin Message ---
robert mat wrote:
> An environmental writer and advocate, (sort of the Vancouver
> Island's own 'David Suzuki') wrote me saying that, something
> like, 'if this technology can be proofed by battery experts,
> also as being cost-effective, then it would be big news
> indeed.'
And he's right.
What is missing is any objective, quantifiable measurements of what
improvement results due to your secret "revival" process. I have
offered (though perhaps that offer was not [yet] communicated to you?)
to perform industry standard discharge tests on any lead acid batteries
you would like to provide, before and after revival. You don't need to
disclose anything about your secret process, merely allow the batteries'
performance to be quantified before and after revival so that you will
then have independent third party confirmation of the benefits of your
process. If you have confidence in your process then you have no reason
to not accept this offer as it will merely confirm what you already know
and can then be used to further promote your process and product should
you wish.
> How about the cost-study suggested by the environmental
> advocate? Well, no one said, 'let's do a three-year cost
> study' when we gave away thousands of dollars worth of
> revived wheelchair batteries in Vancouver, from MP Libby
> Davies' office, and three other locations.
At that time were you publicly asserting that the battery portion of EV
operating costs for vehicles not using your revived batteries is 2x-10x
the cost of operating a gasoline vehicle? Sure would be useful to have
some cost study data to back up claims such as this, especially when you
assert that the cost of using your revived batteries is so much lower,
but don't appear to have data actually supporting either position.
Part of the operating costs of an EV is the cost of the energy required
to recharge its batteries, and older, less-healthy batteries tend to
charge less efficiently and so have a greater energy cost associated
with them. The cost of revived batteries may be low for you, but the
single online auction I found has you selling a pair of revived U1s for
$75. It is difficult to see how one could save enough buying revived
U1s for their EV (instead of new ones) to achieve the sort of
operational cost improvements you claim. Are you proposing to make your
revival technology/techniques available to the general public so we can
each revive our own batteries and achive the same cost advantages as
you?
> And, why do we need to do a three-year cost-study,
> when the cost of a dead battery is zero, or nearly zero?
The cost (to you) of a "dead" battery is presently [near] zero because
people are still discarding batteries with some useful life in them.
You also benefit from the assinine policy in BC that has consumers pay
an "environmental levy" when purchasing new batteries, but does not
return this levy to the consumer upon returning the spent batteries to
an appropriate recycling facility; as a result there is no incentive for
the consumer to properly recycle used batteries other than their own
conscience...
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Apr 2007 at 0:36, childreypa wrote:
> But BTW, if series hybrid is
> so bad, how does the Volt plan on pulling it off?
Call me cynical, but I don't think GM actually >does< plan to build the Volt.
Sure, they swear they're serious, but I've heard that song from them many
times over the last 40 years or so. We're on the third or fourth verse, I
think.
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--- Begin Message ---
My understanding is that 40kw+ generators are pretty big and heavy.
What would be the disadvantage of direct connecting the APU to the shaft of the
motor, perhaps via some sort of electric clutch?
If the main purpose of the 'range extender' is to allow the vehicle to go long
distances then it would be much more efficient to only couple it when the
vehicle is 'at speed' and going steady state anyway.
This way you could do away with the extra cost, weight and inefficiencies of
the generator and if the motor was AC, BLDC or SepEx it could actually recharge
the batteries as well and/or behave as a mobile power unit.
Another advantage would be that, if designed right, it could be removable and,
if desired, more batteries put in its place when not in use.
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2007 at 0:36, childreypa wrote:
>
> > But BTW, if series hybrid is
> > so bad, how does the Volt plan on pulling it off?
>
> Call me cynical, but I don't think GM actually >does< plan to build the Volt.
>
> Sure, they swear they're serious, but I've heard that song from them many
> times over the last 40 years or so. We're on the third or fourth verse, I
> think.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was and probably still is a small battery charger on the market
that could recharge any battery (even non rechargebales aas etc) and it
used a little processor and it pulsed the charge.
Seems the same could be done with larger batteries.
Is that how your reviver works?
Also lead acid battery shorts are easily fixed. Simply pull the plates,
wash them, drain the bottom of the cell of scale and re ph the
solution.
The original electric cars of the 1920's did this all the time.
Only recently did we have the disposable sealed lead acid.
It is a marketing gimmick that requires new purchases.
It is not a technology imposed limit on the batteries.
Lead acid batteires can be reused almost endlessly with those
procedures.
Old batteries had hanging lead plates so they could be pulled out by
hand and washed easily or stored for long periods.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:10 pm, robert mat wrote:
An environmental writer and advocate, (sort of the Vancouver Island’s
own ‘David Suzuki’) wrote me saying that, something like, ‘if
this technology can be proofed by battery experts, also as being
cost-effective, then it would be big news indeed.’ I wrote asking
him, ‘but which battery experts?’ For one thing, we’ve already
shipped thousands of non-rechargeable lithiums all over the world –
batteries that Scientific American and Battery University (“the
experts”) deem to be impossible to revive. How, then, can “battery
experts” admit that lithium battery revival is even possible, when
battery companies state on their labels, “will explode, when
recharged”. So, which experts? We’re the only sellers of revived
batteries on an online auction site that have a positive feedback that
can be seen by everyone. We’ve even shipped revived wheelchair
batteries (exactly like the ones in our pickup EV) from northern BC to
Brooklyn, NY. Read our feedbacks. Consumers are experts, too,
aren't they?
How about the cost-study suggested by the environmental advocate? Well,
no one said, ‘let’s do a three-year cost study’ when we gave away
thousands of dollars worth of revived wheelchair batteries in
Vancouver, from MP Libby Davies’ office, and three other locations.
No one said, ‘let’s do a cost study’ when we donated thousands of
revived batteries for Vancouver libraries, bike lane openings, and the
Christmas Wish Breakfast fund-raiser, and many other events. And, why
do we need to do a three-year cost-study, when the cost of a dead
battery is zero, or nearly zero? What would we learn from a three-year
cost-study, anyway: That, perhaps, “the three-year cost of a
zero-cost battery, well, um, is zero.”
Revived batteries aren’t new to us: We’ve been doing them for over
three years, on our electric scooters and ebikes. We’ve merely
transferred the knowledge to four-wheelers, with its longer
battery-string and accompanying complexity. Just goggle “revived
batteries” and check it out yourself. Do you think we need a
three-year cost-study? While the planet burns and Kiribati sinks deeper
into the sea?
As a people, should we attend more rallies and protests against global
warming and hear environmentalist talk about the ‘need for action’?
In my opinion, complaining does little, unless we have a real-hardware
option. The car and oil oligopolies companies aren’t going to give us
a real-hardware option, if Ralph Nader is right. So, let’s stop
complaining, and make our own, real-hardware option, EV’s that run at
a tiny fraction the cost of gasoline. My dad would probably say, 'if
the car companies won't give you real hardware, just make your own real
low-cost EV.'
Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes that is my
understanding too, that as the battery ages the plates
corrode and expand, this is a normal part of the aging process and does
not mean the battery is bad. Deep discharges and excessive
overcharging
speed up this process and in some cases also cause shorts to develop.
Nothing directly to do with failed valves. If the valves ever open you
are charging the battery too hard and the venting causes irreplaceable
loss of water - again leading to another different failure mode.
The example of a EV bike dealer complaining the valves don't open and
implying the bulging batteries have been killed due to this needs to do
some homework and probably needs to find a better battery charger to
sell their clients. Cheap chargers over charge the batteries, cause
corrosion, bulging, shorts and if the valves open dry out the
electrolyte and kill the battery before it's time. Uneducated riders
over discharge their batteries causing sulfation, loss of plate area
and
kill the battery before it's time. Put the two together and you have a
very dissatisfied customer!
All lead acid batteries eventually fail due to one or both of plate
corrosion, sulfation and loss of water. These lead to loss of active
material or active surface area and ether the battery looses so much
capacity it is useless for it's intended purpose or develops an
internal
short and can no longer hold a charge. Careful charging and with non
sealed batteries watering will give you the maximum life but there
comes
a time when you have too look the batteries in the eye and say 'you
have
been a good and true friend but it's time to move on to the next phase
in the great cycle of life' :-) and look for the nearest recycling
depot.
There has been much discussion of various magic formula to slow down or
reverse some of these processes but no one in all the years I have
watched this group has ever shown any demonstrative proof that anything
but TLC can extend the life of a lead acid battery and nothing has ever
been demonstrated that can revive a dead battery to a point that it
could be returned to useful service in and EV. There has been lots of
talk but never any rigorous data.
I would encourage Robert to discuss his 'no cost batteries for EV' in a
detailed posting but I truly believe that he is just picking the OK
batteries from a pile of suspect ones, charging them individually and
then doing the re-use part of the three R's and hence slightly reducing
the number of batteries that need to be purchased over time. The
trouble is the cost of keeping an mismatched odd ball pack of batteries
in line is costly in either electronics or manual labor or both.
Lawrence Harris
robert mat wrote:
Also, on VRLAs (sealed) on ebikes, my guess is that the valves aren't
releasing. Very cheap build, and mfg cheated by not putting in valves,
imho, like on the Raylight ebikes. Raylight vendor told me 100% of his
batteries bulged at the end of battery life.
David Roden wrote: I think this results from positive grid corrosion
- typically a symptom of
chronic overcharging.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. May be one solution:
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
solving global warming and pollution at once..
http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
Games.
The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. May be one solution:
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
solving global warming and pollution at once..
http://tv-news-revived-batteries.blogspot.com/
---------------------------------
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