EV Digest 6664
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) wrapping up the regen discussion
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Potboxes
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Datsun 411 progress
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Potboxes
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: wrapping up the regen discussion
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: wrapping up the regen discussion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Potboxes
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: "largish" brushless motors available
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Potboxes
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Motor to Axle Options
by pjc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) That feeling again
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Silly Tweety!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Motor to Axle Options
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) "largish" brushless motors and DC generators available
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Regenerative Clamper
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
So tell me where I got it wrong:
1) its easier to do regen with AC; but AC motors are very expensive off-the
shelf, like 3x DC.
2) DC shunt type motors can do regen, also reverse, but require a special
controller for both.
3) Curtis does make such a controller, but its only made or only available in low-voltage ( i.e. golf car market) sizes,
typically 48 V max.
4) Mechanical regen is possible, but of course requires a separate generator and automatically controlled clutch-like
mechanism. This complexity and weight probably rules it out for most builders.
5) D&D makes regen-capable sepex motors up to 72 V they tell me, but thats too low a voltage for a peppy 1500 lb EV.
Possibly interesting to MC builders, or ultra-lightweight builders.
That about right?
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon,
For what it would cost to buy an old erector set, you could buy a dozen new
pot boxes. :-)
Every time I go into an antique shop nowadays I look at the toys and think
"those aren't antiques, I had brand new ones of those when I was a kid,
just, oh, fifty years or so ago". :-) Oh well, time flies.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 8:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Potboxes
Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy growing
up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
damon
>From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: Potboxes
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:32 +1000
>
>At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
>>You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
>>if you really want:
>>Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
>>the pot axle.<snip>
>
>G'day Cor, and All
>
>I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What counted a
>pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs to be
>for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement of ICE
>throttle cables.
>
>The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
>significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm. One-off
>the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
>volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the pulley
>cost would become very significant.
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>Behalf Of James Massey
>>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: Potboxes
>>
>>G'day All
>>
>>I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
>>Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting kits
>>of
>>parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
>>series
>>of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not something
>>I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around for
>>other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
>>
>>I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but from
>>the
>>photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define left
>>or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
>>
>>Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
>>sleeve
>>of the operating cable.
>>
>>So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
>>* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
>>change
>>it if needed).
>>* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
>>going
>>off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
>>* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if desired)
>>* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm length
>>that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one that is
>>a
>>row of holes.
>>
>>For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard, 270-degree,
>>25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
>>
>>For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire
>>can
>>be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
>>rotate a 5k pot fully.
>>
>>Comments/opinions/flak?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>[Technik] James
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The conversion of my '66 Datsun 411 wagon is slowly progressing...
I have drawn up battery box designs for the front and back. I have a
design that allows for either 10 group 31 AGMs or 13 group 34/78 AGMs.
I want to do some refinement before I start on them and would
appreciate your help. I'd like more group 31 battery options. I've come
up with Optima G31 YTs, Hawker Odyssey, and Deka Intimidators. Battery
names or even better links would help me out. My goal is to make sure
the final design allows for virtually any available group 31 battery.
On the same line are there any other group 34 (roughly) size AGMs that
may be suitable for EVs other than Optima YTs and Exide Orbitals?
I won an e-bay auction last night that should make things easier. For
$19 I bought a factory service manual for the Datsun 411. This should
prove helpful.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if anyone has ever tried using the gas tank float and fuel gauge
sender unit for a potbox...
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Potboxes
why have a cable running to the controller ? why not run wires to the pot
box and mount the resistor in the pot box at the accelrator pedal ? and
you con make the mounting box with a right or left maount for the control
arm and the resistor siomply is mounted on the end of the control arm and
there is no need for figuring out cables !!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: Potboxes
Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy
growing
up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
damon
>From: James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Potboxes
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:32 +1000
>
>At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
>>You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
>>if you really want:
>>Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
>>the pot axle.<snip>
>
>G'day Cor, and All
>
>I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What counted
a
>pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs to be
>for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement of
ICE
>throttle cables.
>
>The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
>significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm.
One-off
>the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
>volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the
pulley
>cost would become very significant.
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>Behalf Of James Massey
>>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Potboxes
>>
>>G'day All
>>
>>I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
>>Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting
kits
>>of
>>parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
>>series
>>of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not
something
>>I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around
for
>>other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
>>
>>I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but
from
>>the
>>photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define
left
>>or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
>>
>>Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
>>sleeve
>>of the operating cable.
>>
>>So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
>>* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
>>change
>>it if needed).
>>* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
>>going
>>off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
>>* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if
desired)
>>* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm
length
>>that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one that
is
>>a
>>row of holes.
>>
>>For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard,
270-degree,
>>25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
>>
>>For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire
>>can
>>be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
>>rotate a 5k pot fully.
>>
>>Comments/opinions/flak?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>[Technik] James
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3<http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
> So tell me where I got it wrong:
>
> 1) its easier to do regen with AC; but AC motors are very
> expensive off-the shelf, like 3x DC.
True for motors intended for EV/automotive applications, but not
necessarily in general (i.e. ordinary industrial AC motors aren't so
expensive).
> 2) DC shunt type motors can do regen, also reverse, but
> require a special controller for both.
This general statement applies to all DC motors. Series, sep-ex, PMDC,
etc. can all do regen and reverse when mated to the approriate
controller.
> 3) Curtis does make such a controller, but its only made or
> only available in low-voltage ( i.e. golf car market) sizes,
> typically 48 V max.
Curtis makes sep-ex controllers up to 72V and 400A.
> 4) Mechanical regen is possible, but of course requires a
> separate generator and automatically controlled clutch-like
> mechanism. This complexity and weight probably rules it out
> for most builders.
Regen using a dedicated generator is possible and does not require an
automatically controlled clutch type mechanism. For instance, one of
these:
<http://www.fabcopower.com/generat/bgen.htm>
Feeding a PFCxx charger would provide a simple regen setup. Let the
alternator spin with the drive motor and just power the field when you
want regen.
> 5) D&D makes regen-capable sepex motors up to 72 V they tell
> me, but thats too low a voltage for a peppy 1500 lb EV.
> Possibly interesting to MC builders, or ultra-lightweight builders.
Depending what speeds you need to achieve, and whether you are planning
on a fixed ratio or multi-speed tranny a 72V 400A controller and 72V
sepex motor can certainly result in a peppy 1500lb EV. (Not White Zombie
peppy, but peppy nonetheless... ;^)
For more pep, look at using a Zapi SEM-3 (72-96V, 500A) sep-ex
controller, or a pair of motors and a dual SEM-3 controller (this is a
single 72-96V controller intended to supply up to 500A to each of 2
motors).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In MA we have millions of folks buying this alternative,
> so I would say that's not "fringe".
Those millions may not be 'fringe' in Maine, with <1.5M people, but they
are still minority. Taken across 300M USA population, it merges toward
the fringe... even more-so if you figure nearly 7B worldwide. I applaud
your local action, and the micro-effect it may drive, but consider the
greater context, as well.
...umm... all of which can power your EV. There.. we're on topic :)
> Nice save! :D
> ...To power a vehicle directly from electricity through battery
> storage yields a much, much greater efficiency than hydrogen,
> or any other portable liquid fuel.
Agreed, FWIW.
> Including gasoline...
Can anyone point to unbiased real-world numbers of what it takes to
drill, process, and deliver gasoline? I'm of the opinion that those big,
bad oil companies are building all of that into the cost at the pump --
I can't imagine a philanthropic discount!
> BEVs are zero emission (on road), and they are more
> efficient consumers of energy than ICEs, let alone
> all of the efficiencies built into the grid.
Hell, I *hope* you are right -- it is why I am here in the first place!
But I wonder how much of the numbers delivered in the press aren't
slanted one way or the other. Numbers slanted in favor of the oil
companies are worth almost as little to me as numbers slanted in favor
of well-intentioned proponents of EVs. I won't argue the efficiency of
EVs at the pump (or plug), but power production and delivery has
unavoidable costs on the other side of that pump/plug, whether you are
talking gas, diesel, hydrogen, electric, or wind-up clock-springs... and
energy storage has its own set of issues, on this side of the pump/plug
-- I wish EV batteries were as simple and economical as a petroleum
tank!
> Even if we were to produce ALL of the electricity
> for our cars from oil, including generator inefficiencies,
> the total emissions would drop.
Citation, please?
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
john fisher wrote:
So tell me where I got it wrong:
1) its easier to do regen with AC; but AC motors are very expensive
off-the shelf, like 3x DC.
AC motors are no more expensive than DC motors of similar size and
efficiency. It's the *controller* for an AC system that costs so much more.
2) DC shunt type motors can do regen, also reverse, but require a
special controller for both.
I'd say "different" rather than special. The controller for a shunt
motor is actually simpler than for a series motor. You can switch power
straight to the armature with contactors, and do all your speed control
with the field, for instance.
3) Curtis does make such a controller, but its only made or only
available in low-voltage ( i.e. golf car market) sizes,
typically 48 V max.
The Curtis 1221R is a 120v controller.
4) Mechanical regen is possible, but of course requires a separate
generator and automatically controlled clutch-like mechanism.
This complexity and weight probably rules it out for most builders.
I'm not sure what you mean by "mechanical" regen. Do you mean having a
second "motor" (really a generator or alternator) for doing regen,
separate from the traction motor? If so, there is no need for a clutch;
it can be direct coupled to the traction motor with no real loss of
efficiency. But they are often coupled with gears, chains, or belts just
for mechancial convenience; so the package isn't so long, or to have a
step-up ratio between them.
5) D&D makes regen-capable sepex motors up to 72 V they tell me,
but that's too low a voltage for a peppy 1500 lb EV.
I wouldn't say that... My 2400 lbs ComutaVan was a 72v system, and went
50-60 mph.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To me, the way to do an open source AC drive is to start with an
ordinary industrial 10hp 240vac motor. They are common, affordable, and
easy to work on.
....
This is what I had in mind just for a one-off for myself, before
finding the BLDC's that I have now. I think for an EV application, a
sensor-based control would be required. It also should make it a lot
easier for a motor controller to essentially 'tune' itself.
Except for a one-off for myself, I was not going to do auto-learning
since I am not afraid to type in a slip curve that kind of thing.
I do ICE software and calibration for a living - EV calibration
looks trivial compared to most ICE calibration these days.
For this type of application, would it be acceptable to use motor
nameplate data to be entered into the program, or would it be
better for it to just learn everything? I am also somewhat leery
of motor learn algorithms that just 'ping' the motor when you are
trying to get the most torque out of it at the far ends of the
slip curve.
Do you think it would be easy to split apart the windings on an
existing motor? I've always seen a big mess of copper but never
a really neat spot that says 'split me here'.
I would think that the whole controller cost should be around $800
or $1000 if you can get scrap metal to build the box and heatsink.
I know you can get three 300A, 600V IGBT half-bridge modules for
around $250. That's what I rebuilt my Solectria controller with,
although I have only bench-tested it so far.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:29 PM 13/04/07 -0500, Fred wrote:
why have a cable running to the controller ? why not run wires to the pot
box and mount the resistor in the pot box at the accelrator pedal ? and
you con make the mounting box with a right or left maount for the control
arm and the resistor siomply is mounted on the end of the control arm and
there is no need for figuring out cables !!!!
G'day Fred, All
For my Daihatsu I've made a potbox already, mounted above the accelerator
and connected by a link, The lever arm moves 135 degrees of arc, which is
about the limit to move using a rigid link. It was a fair hassle to set the
pivot lengths correctly to get full travel, and I'd say it would be easier
for most people to set up their accelerator by using their existing cable.
In order to keep the travel down to 135 degrees of arc, and still move the
pot through its' 270 degrees, I made the potbox with a gear ratio, from the
gear box from a peristhaltic (never can remember how that's spelled, a
squeeze-the-tube) pump, along with the final gear pair that happened to be
2:1 ratio. It is also necessary to have a spring on the pot itself, to keep
the pot gear teeth pre-loaded against the lever arm gear teeth. So it is
not so straight-forward to build a potbox that uses a gear ratio to fully
turn a standard pot using a reduced lever arc.
To use a pulley would mean calculating back from the pedal lever travel
(for example 3"). The potentiometer travels 3/4 of a turn, so the
circumference of the pulley needs to be such that 3/4 of its' circumference
equals the pedal lever travel (example, the circumference would need to be
4"). A 4" circumference pulley has a diameter of about 1-1/4", probably far
too tight for a car throttle cable, but maybe OK for a motorcycle cable.
The Curtis potbox seems to give nowhere to restrain the cable outer, and
the use of a set of holes to select the position out along the arm rather
than a sliding clamp seems to make it potentially a hassle to install. What
issues have people had using the Curtis box?
With a pre-set limited movement pot arm (along the lines of the Curtis
PB-5, -6, -9, -10) that allows the stroke length to be moved in and out,
the pot travel is pre-set, the accelerator travel is pre-existing and the
two can be ratio matched by picking the position along the arm length that
arcs the pot over the cable movement length of the accelerator.
Regards
[Technik] James
>>Behalf Of James Massey
>>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Potboxes
>>
>>G'day All
>>
>>I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
>>Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting kits
>>of
>>parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
>>series
>>of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not
something
>>I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around for
>>other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
>>
>>I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but from
>>the
>>photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define
left
>>or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
>>
>>Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
>>sleeve
>>of the operating cable.
>>
>>So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
>>* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
>>change
>>it if needed).
>>* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
>>going
>>off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
>>* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if desired)
>>* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm length
>>that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one
that is
>>a
>>row of holes.
>>
>>For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard, 270-degree,
>>25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
>>
>>For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire
>>can
>>be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
>>rotate a 5k pot fully.
>>
>>Comments/opinions/flak?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>[Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
If one were to start out with the control card from a quality AC drive which
offers closed loop flux vector control instead of simple volts per hertz
control, it will probably have an auto tune feature where you enter motor
nameplate data and the drive sequences for a couple of minutes to determine
certain parameter needed for control. If you start with a DSP or the like,
you're on your own to program math. Good control cards with can be obtained
from a small drive, like 0.5 kW along with the manual for a reasonable cost.
Many drive companies use the same control card for small drives thru 500 kW.
So once you learn the small drive, remove the control card and use it with
large power devices. Of course a bunch of other stuff is going to change, gate
drivers, sensors and the like. But these industrial drives capable of true
torque control have already done all the work for us in regards to the control
algorithms. No sense reinventing the wheel to save a couple
hundred bucks.
As far as your big copper mess, one end of the induction motor normally has
all the coil connections, usually referred to as the nodes. If you know what
you're doing, or get some text on stator rewind, you can reconnect for
different voltage. It might not be easy, but doable. Of course, once this is
done, you will have to correct the nameplate data for the drive commissioning.
Jeff
Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
To me, the way to do an open source AC drive is to start with an
ordinary industrial 10hp 240vac motor. They are common, affordable, and
easy to work on.
....
This is what I had in mind just for a one-off for myself, before
finding the BLDC's that I have now. I think for an EV application, a
sensor-based control would be required. It also should make it a lot
easier for a motor controller to essentially 'tune' itself.
Except for a one-off for myself, I was not going to do auto-learning
since I am not afraid to type in a slip curve that kind of thing.
I do ICE software and calibration for a living - EV calibration
looks trivial compared to most ICE calibration these days.
For this type of application, would it be acceptable to use motor
nameplate data to be entered into the program, or would it be
better for it to just learn everything? I am also somewhat leery
of motor learn algorithms that just 'ping' the motor when you are
trying to get the most torque out of it at the far ends of the
slip curve.
Do you think it would be easy to split apart the windings on an
existing motor? I've always seen a big mess of copper but never
a really neat spot that says 'split me here'.
I would think that the whole controller cost should be around $800
or $1000 if you can get scrap metal to build the box and heatsink.
I know you can get three 300A, 600V IGBT half-bridge modules for
around $250. That's what I rebuilt my Solectria controller with,
although I have only bench-tested it so far.
-Dale
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My fiero is using a throttle body from a EFI Ford Escort, cost $15 at
the junkyard, you can buy them all day long, built to last longer than
the life of the car. Also uses a cable rotation, although I set it up
with a pull cable. It has 1-3K resistance through its rotation, so not
a direct curtis replacement, the ford 3.0L throttle body is 0-5K, I use
that in my jetski.
jack
Dave Wilker wrote:
I wonder if anyone has ever tried using the gas tank float and fuel
gauge sender unit for a potbox...
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message ----- From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Potboxes
why have a cable running to the controller ? why not run wires to the
pot box and mount the resistor in the pot box at the accelrator pedal
? and you con make the mounting box with a right or left maount for
the control arm and the resistor siomply is mounted on the end of the
control arm and there is no need for figuring out cables !!!!
----- Original Message ----- From: damon
henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: Potboxes
Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy
growing
up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
damon
>From: James Massey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Potboxes
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:32 +1000
>
>At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
>>You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
>>if you really want:
>>Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
>>the pot axle.<snip>
>
>G'day Cor, and All
>
>I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What
counted a
>pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs
to be
>for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement
of ICE
>throttle cables.
>
>The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
>significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm.
One-off
>the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
>volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the
pulley
>cost would become very significant.
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>Behalf Of James Massey
>>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Potboxes
>>
>>G'day All
>>
>>I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to
the
>>Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting
kits
>>of
>>parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
>>series
>>of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not
something
>>I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade
around for
>>other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
>>
>>I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but
from
>>the
>>photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to
define left
>>or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
>>
>>Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
>>sleeve
>>of the operating cable.
>>
>>So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
>>* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
>>change
>>it if needed).
>>* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
>>going
>>off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
>>* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if
desired)
>>* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm
length
>>that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one
that is
>>a
>>row of holes.
>>
>>For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard,
270-degree,
>>25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
>>
>>For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the
wire
>>can
>>be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear
set to
>>rotate a 5k pot fully.
>>
>>Comments/opinions/flak?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>[Technik] James
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3<http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
currently
> just 3KW,
That's what I'm putting on my kids go-cart using my
BLDC control. This control is currently used on
evaporator blowers on transportation vehicles like
Greyhound. I always build a few 'extras' when doing
prototypes. The latest is a 6" stack 64 frame motor
(that is 4" diameter stator). I got some 'free'
samples for the higher voltage MOSFET's and bus caps.
I'll start out with 60 Amp current limit with a 48V
bus (about 3kW). If everything looks good I'll crank
up the current limit to 100Amps to get 5kW.
I'll report back to the list how things work out (or
blow up!).
Rod
--- Kaido Kert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Use a purchased 3-phase AC motor controller as the
> "brains". If it's one
> > of the demo ones sold by the semiconductor
> companies, you can "hack" it
> > to change the algorithms to your heart's content.
> >
> > It should include motor voltage and current
> sensing, and a high priority
> > should be placed on having the software figure out
> the motor
> > characteristics for itself. Don't depend on the
> user to know or measure
> > the motor's characteristics, and have to program
> them into the
> > controller himself!
> >
> > This plan won't lead to an ACP or Zilla-beating AC
> drive, but it will be
> > something that can actually be affordable, get
> built, and will work!
>
> And thats exactly what i am aiming at, in the end,
> but i am starting
> smaller, with a working setup modified to my hearts
> content. currently
> just 3KW, but im hoping Powerex and IRF seven-packs
> in 10hp range
> should be relatively painless drop-ins later on.
>
> -kert
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Dear EV'ers,
I have just under 1-week before attending my first EV club meeting, but I
simply can't wait to ask some of my questions. In particular, I have noticed
abundant information related to motors, batteries, and controllers, but I am
now seeking information related to methods of transfering power from the motor
to the vehicle.
For example, I plan to convert my 1988 Saab 900 Turbo this summer, but it is an
automatic. I understand that an automatic could be used, but that efficiencies
are lost as compared to a direct drive or a manual transmission car.
Are there many vendors that manufacture semi-off-the-shelf gearboxes for the EV
folks so that I can dispose of my automatic x-mission?
Best regards,
Pete
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can remember when I got the first EV part for my conversion. I
couldn't do much but look at it, but it was exciting.
Today I got home to find a part for the next phase of this adventure
waiting on my porch, the weld controller for the battery spot welder.
Can't wait until I get the rest....
I was looking at a comparison of using 26650's or using 18650's in my
module. To my surprise, using 18650's might work out better!
look at it this way: 26650's will require 2 welds per end to handle the
current they may put out. a higher quantity of 18650's would only need 1
weld per end because they are capable of less amps anyway. so in the 144
26650 module we have 4*144 for the cells + 4*144 to the bus-bars = 1152
welds. (wow)
if I have 276 18650 then I have 276*2 + 276*2 or 1104 welds. about the
same. Maybe even less if the single weld per allows 276*2 + 276*1 or
828welds.
there is also more surface area for cell cooling.
Anyway. Just a thought, 18650's are more of a commodity right now than
26650's, but that is changeing rapidly!
I am designing around submodules. I hope to get a CNC after this works,
to automate the welding. The operator(thats me for now) loads a caddy
with cells,bussbars, and the laser cut nickel. puts it in the machine
and hits go, flipped over, and hit go again. While it welds, the other
caddy is loaded up.
which reminds me, now it is really time to clean out that garage!
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--- Begin Message ---
Ha Ha! I just love it!
Today, driving home in Tweety, Heidi’s yellow NmG, I pull up next to a Range
Rover stopped at a light. There are three guys in the car who finally notice
the silly looking yellow car. I hear them burst out laughing through the
rolled up windows. They were pointing and laughing – very amused. I just
smiled.
The light turns green and I press it down. Not all of it, just an easy 250
amps. Though 250 amps is far from full go, it still jumps little Tweety way
out front.
Checking the rear view mirror, I see the wild laughing faces suddenly turn to
wide eyed, drop jawed stares…. Now I’m laughing!
Sorry, just can’t help myself.
Ken
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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--- Begin Message ---
Automatic still being retained: http://saabrina.blogspot.com/
There is also the unexplored option of direct driving the automatic
transmission sans no torque converter using either a pump drive such
as this:
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/CircleTrack/circle_track_pump_drives.asp
Or an empty converter which is essentially the same as above but
simpler though more mass:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_748510_-1_10723
Maybe something more along the lines of the two piece coupler as seen here:
http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/130.html
Or you could direct drive the EV with no trans?
Your quickest easiest solution would be to keep the auto trans and
converter and try it out. If you think there is too much
loss(converter slippage), send the converter to TCI and have them open
it up and convert it to an empty shell and try that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
Make it a 4-pole, base speed 1750 rpm, so when you run it at 2x the
frequency, it only goes up to 3500 rpm, where balancing and bearing
issues won't cause problems.
What type of mods would need to be done to that same motor to make it
be able to handle 6,000+rpm? How much voltage/amps/watts can this
same motor ultimately take? Imagine for a minute this same motor with
an AC version of the Z2K. Excluding rpm from a mode of failure, what
does serious amperage do to the motor and how is it corrected for?
What mods must be done to handle Z2K power levels? What is the weak
link in a typical AC motor?
This plan won't lead to an ACP or Zilla-beating AC drive, but it will be
something that can actually be affordable, get built, and will work!
Are you saying the design is not scalable? Why can't things like this
be scaled up to ~10,000 amps and ~650+ volts? Excluding money; what
are the limiting factors?
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--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
If everything looks good I'll crank
up the current limit to 100Amps to get 5kW.
What does it take to keep on scaling up(not including money)? What
could it ultimately scale up too?
Just for fun, design something that can handle multi thousand amps and
very decent voltage(upper 300+ volts range). If the design is
available, someone at some point in time will build it.
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--- Begin Message ---
Can you two define "reasonable" please.
Victor
Dale Ulan wrote:
after all those years, we still don't have access to reasonably priced DC
technology that offers regen. ...
Or why don't we have reasonably priced AC technology?
-Dale
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--- Begin Message ---
9:30 P.M. April 13
For anyone interested in a brushless DC motor around 10KW, I can order and
supply the eCycle CMG series BLDC units, which have now come down in price
to as low as $1300. for the air-cooled version. This is for the new
solid-slot, low voltage, lightweight, high efficiency model, including the
electronic commutator that can be ordered as 24V nominal 400A or 36V nominal
300A maximum rating. Because the 3-phase electronic commutator is built-in,
you just supply DC to it, no separate AC motor controller is required,
making it much easier to use. For example, a low cost "standard" Alltrax
AXE4844 controller is suitable for speed control and current limiting. With
another higher cost controller, (Buck/Boost Regulator) they can provide
regen.
These units are also well suited to making efficient, low voltage (14V and
24V) self starting generators, due to their synchronous rectification in the
electronic commutator (lower losses than a 3-phase diode bridge), when
coupled to an appropriate gasoline or diesel engine.
I also have stock of a couple of higher voltage MG units (MGA1-36, MGA2-36,
and MGA-48) suitable for making range extender generators for 96V and
120-144V EVs when used with a 3-phase bridge. I have built several
generators like this, for 72V, 84V and 96V applications, mostly using the
Robin Subaru EX-21 7 HP gasoline engine.
If you are interested in BLDC motors or generator units, please contact me
off-list.
Thanks.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: "largish" brushless motors available
On 4/12/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors for
> example, but UQM isnt selling.
<snip>
Actually they are selling, but their prices are insane for one set of
motor and controller, what they call a 'sample', costs $21k+
Maybe someone could make a friend at Phoenix and get some for the list
at their cost. :-)
I seriously think that it would be easier to convince either Hacker,
Lehner, MaxCim or any of the large RC builders to do a custom batch
for EV list.
The problem is, there are no off the shelf inverters ( apart from
industrial ones ) to run them, and more importantly, it would be
impossible to reach a concensus on the exact details of the motors (
KWs, poles, windings for trapezoidal BEMF or sinusoidal .. bearings
and so on )
-kert
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--- Begin Message ---
I understand that Rich. My point was - while important, the
price should not be the only consideration to start with.
You made it sound like unless it's cheap, no one
would care to buy no matter how good it is.
I'm not so sure on that, but what do I know about
business?...
Victor
Rich Rudman wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Regenerative Clamper
Regen reg sure can be cost effective. It will just always be more
expensive than a resistor+fan.
Victor
\
Exactly my point Victor
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
--- End Message ---
