EV Digest 6663
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Potboxes
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: signal wire gage
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Potboxes
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: signal wire gage
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
by "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Potboxes
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: signal wire gage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EMIS (was Converting my F-150)
by Pete Storm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Free Electravan
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Free Electravan
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: "largish" brushless motors available
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "largish" brushless motors available
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Potboxes
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Kokam LiPoly Batts
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> What would be the disadvantage of direct connecting the APU to the shaft
> of the
> motor, perhaps via some sort of electric clutch?
That, IMNSHO is exactly how you SHOULD do it. A series/parallel hybrid
with the ICE driving the wheels directly as needed and usually only at
highway speeds.
> If the main purpose of the 'range extender' is to allow the vehicle to go
> long
> distances then it would be much more efficient to only couple it when the
> vehicle is 'at speed' and going steady state anyway.
>
> This way you could do away with the extra cost, weight and inefficiencies
> of
> the generator and if the motor was AC, BLDC or SepEx it could actually
> recharge
> the batteries as well and/or behave as a mobile power unit.
>
> Another advantage would be that, if designed right, it could be removable
> and,
> if desired, more batteries put in its place when not in use.
>
>
> --- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> On 12 Apr 2007 at 0:36, childreypa wrote:
>>
>> > But BTW, if series hybrid is
>> > so bad, how does the Volt plan on pulling it off?
>>
>> Call me cynical, but I don't think GM actually >does< plan to build the
>> Volt.
>>
>> Sure, they swear they're serious, but I've heard that song from them
>> many
>> times over the last 40 years or so. We're on the third or fourth verse,
>> I
>> think.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> The fish are biting.
> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
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>
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--- Begin Message ---
At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
if you really want:
Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
the pot axle.<snip>
G'day Cor, and All
I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What counted a
pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs to be
for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement of ICE
throttle cables.
The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm. One-off
the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the pulley
cost would become very significant.
Regards
[Technik] James
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Potboxes
G'day All
I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting kits of
parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis series
of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not something
I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around for
other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but from the
photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define left
or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the sleeve
of the operating cable.
So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to change
it if needed).
* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably going
off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if desired)
* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm length
that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one that is a
row of holes.
For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard, 270-degree,
25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire can
be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
rotate a 5k pot fully.
Comments/opinions/flak?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks guys, looks like a trip to the return desk at home depot is in
order.
John
On Apr 13, 2007, at 1:02 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Garret Maki wrote:
Yes on the gauge. No the telephone wire if it isn't twisted
for the amp meter. The amp shunt is most likely 50mV full
scale, so you will want to use a twisted pair to reject
magnetic interference.
Also avoid telephone cable if it is solid rather than stranded as it
will fatigue and break sooner than stranded wire due to the
vibration in
a vehicle.
I'd use twisted pair for all signal connections, not just the ammeter
sense lines. Guage-wise you are really limited by the mechanical
strength of the wires; 18ga is a decent choice.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could cast the pulleys from Al into metal molds,
Not sure if you're setup for that...
but I am planning on casting some 5" ones for my block
and tackle.
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
> >You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable
> itself
> >if you really want:
> >Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
> >the pot axle.<snip>
>
> G'day Cor, and All
>
> I actually considered a pulley, I should have
> mentioned it. What counted a
> pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley
> diameter needs to be
> for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the
> available movement of ICE
> throttle cables.
>
> The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm
> considering is the
> significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using
> a lever arm. One-off
> the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one.
> But in the 20 to 50
> volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of
> parts viable the pulley
> cost would become very significant.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >Behalf Of James Massey
> >Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Potboxes
> >
> >G'day All
> >
> >I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys
> alternatives to the
> >Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion
> comes to getting kits of
> >parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes
> similar to the Curtis series
> >of boxes, but with care in the design improve on
> them. It is not something
> >I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an
> item to trade around for
> >other things that I need, saving me money in other
> areas.
> >
> >I've never had a close look at any version of the
> Curtis boxes, but from the
> >photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is
> necessary to define left
> >or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit
> switch or not.
> >
> >Another thing I notice is that there is no cable
> anchor point for the sleeve
> >of the operating cable.
> >
> >So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design
> is:
> >* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and
> dis-assemble it to change
> >it if needed).
> >* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable
> sleeve to (probably going
> >off both sides to use a straight pull spring for
> the return spring).
> >* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a
> WOT switch if desired)
> >* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely
> adjustable arm length
> >that is a pair of arms with the cable in between,
> rather than one that is a
> >row of holes.
> >
> >For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a
> standard, 270-degree,
> >25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the
> operating range.
> >
> >For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a
> wire-wound pot that the wire can
> >be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point,
> or a x5 gear set to
> >rotate a 5k pot fully.
> >
> >Comments/opinions/flak?
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >[Technik] James
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/12/07, john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>
> Almost all hydrogen produced today is made from fossil fuels, IIRC primarily
> from Natural Gas.
> If you are planning on using H2 to power hybrid EV, and you are concerned
> about the pollution, you might also look into how much (if any) pollution
> is generated converting NG to H2.
same argument applies to BEVs doesn't it? Look there is no one right way to get
away from the petro-pollution cycle. Its
virtually impossible to do it 100% today on a middle-class budget, though there
are some fringes where people live on
sustainable power, theres just not very many compared to the number who would like
to. <snip>
Actually.. that's not true :) A number of states (Mine included, MA)
have programs to allow for you to buy green power from a variety of
providers. The cost is usually very modestly higher (for example, we
are buying our power from windmill, solar and biomass plant producers
for about 8% more than petro) and the advantage is that long term, the
more people buy into the green power, the less it costs everyone who
does because solar and wind are without fuel costs, just capital
costs. CPV is starting to look VERY promising economically and is
poised to become extremely important. Etc etc. In MA we have millions
of folks buying this alternative, so I would say that's not "fringe".
>
>> BTW EVs listed as worst possible vehicle for sulfur dioxide emissions, but
>> best for most others, including greenhouse gases.
>
> Only when coal powered. Currently the majority of on-road EVs reside in
> states where Hydropower dominates.
hydro and also geothermal both have negative environmental consequences, as
does wind power. Theres no free lunch. Some
lunches are better or cheaper than others.
Wind power's 'environmental' consequences are so minimal as to be non
existent, and now with the advent of Helical vertical mills that are
more efficient than prop driven ones, that concern is reduced even
farther (vertical mills are essentially silent and, in general, do not
kill birds) This reduces the environmental impact of wind to the
constituent parts, like the copper and the PC boards. I agree that
hydro is pretty ridiculous, except perhaps for micro hydro in running
streams and natural falls. Dunno about geothermal.. I think low impact
geothermal put in place by oil drilling style pipes is probably the
best way to go about it.
Regardless of all of this, Solar is the only real game in town long
term, end of story. The other sources are drops in the bucket in
comparison to the amount of energy we can get from grabbing solar.
Which is why so much devo is going into CPV and triple junction
amorphous silicon.
...umm... all of which can power your EV. There.. we're on topic :)
> EVs have the advantage of the potential for running on pure renewable
> and/or non-polluting energy sources. I.e. they can run on sunshine, wind,
> and/or rain.
same argument applies to hydrogen, carbon-neutral bio-fuels, ammonia, and
whatever else comes down the pike. It all
depends on the process. Some people have an emotional attachment or repulsion
to some technologies, see fear of nukes
and love for lead-acid batteries for two examples.
Honestly, any way to cleanly and carbon/pollutant neutral generate
energy is fine with me. The prob I have with nuclear is that the old
design plants are ridiculous. They should use the Navy's reactor
technology which is immensely cleaner. Of course, it is also more
expensive. Also uranium is essentially non renewable so it is a medium
term, not long term solution.
As far as fuels other than electricity to power vehicles goes, it's a
matter of efficiency. To power a vehicle directly from electricity
through battery storage yields a much, much greater efficiency than
hydrogen, or any other portable liquid fuel. Including gasoline.. they
use absolute buckets of electricity to produce gasoline so you're
getting a double whammy there. In fact CA said that refineries were
the largest single consumer of electricity in the state.
BEVs are zero emission (on road), and they are more efficient
consumers of energy than ICEs, let alone all of the efficiencies built
into the grid. Even if we were to produce ALL of the electricity for
our cars from oil, including generator inefficiencies, the total
emissions would drop. So electricity is cheap to produce, can be
produced by benign resources, easy to distribute, and is the most
efficient way to power a vehicle. Which is why, I imagine, many of us
are here :)
All someone has to do now is invent a HyperCapacitor.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, telephone wire is usually solid, and you should be using stranded wire
for this application.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: signal wire gage
Yes on the gauge. No the telephone wire if it isn't twisted for the amp
meter. The amp shunt is most likely 50mV full scale, so you will want
to use a twisted pair to reject magnetic interference.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: signal wire gage
Is 18 gage a suitable size for signal wires.
In particular I was thinking about using 2 conductor 18 gage
telephone wire from home depot for the connections between Ammeter
gages (1 to a motor loop shunt and 1 battery loop shunt) as well as
the wiring for my traction pack (144v) voltmeter?
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
Please note:
1. 99% of today's lead acid batteries are recycled: the lead is remelted and
the plastic is converted into chips and reused.
2. The batteries fail mainly because of the positive active material (PAM)
shedding. The charge / discharge cycling changes its morphology
(crystalline) structure such that it turns into finer and finer particles
and the bonding between the crystals is destroyed so that it floats away
from the plates. It cannot be replaced. The PAM is porous lead dioxide
created from electrochemically converting (charging) the pasted plates. The
paste is a formulation of lead oxide, lead metal particles and a few other
additives to improve the plate integrity. The pasted plates are also cured
to improve their life by improving their morphology. Another mode of failure
is the corrosion of grid metal (lead alloy) because lead dioxide is a very
highly oxidizing agent. Because of this the metal eventually gets converted
to the corrosion products and the plate literally falls apart. The oxidation
is substantial retarded by a phenomenon called passivation. Passivation is a
protective layer that forms and consists of lead sulfate, lead dioxide and
lead oxide that retards further corrosion attack but does not and cannot
stop it.
3. The contention that the battery industry purposely make batteries that do
not last long is a myth. The old technology of battery making has improved
by leaps and bounds to give better life and performance. Most battery
companies with any integrity are continuously striving to make batteries
last longer and have improved capacity. It just makes more business sense.
4. The failure modes are many, but all lead acid batteries, like us humans
will eventually die. The heredity and care determine the age.
I would be glad to address any specific questions you might have.
Nawaz Qureshi
-----Original Message-----
From: GWMobile [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:08 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie? - Not really
There was and probably still is a small battery charger on the market that
could recharge any battery (even non rechargebales aas etc) and it used a
little processor and it pulsed the charge.
Seems the same could be done with larger batteries.
Is that how your reviver works?
Also lead acid battery shorts are easily fixed. Simply pull the plates, wash
them, drain the bottom of the cell of scale and re ph the solution.
The original electric cars of the 1920's did this all the time.
Only recently did we have the disposable sealed lead acid.
It is a marketing gimmick that requires new purchases.
It is not a technology imposed limit on the batteries.
Lead acid batteires can be reused almost endlessly with those procedures.
Old batteries had hanging lead plates so they could be pulled out by hand
and washed easily or stored for long periods.
Snipped....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy growing
up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
damon
From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Potboxes
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:32 +1000
At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
if you really want:
Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
the pot axle.<snip>
G'day Cor, and All
I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What counted a
pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs to be
for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement of ICE
throttle cables.
The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm. One-off
the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the pulley
cost would become very significant.
Regards
[Technik] James
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Potboxes
G'day All
I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting kits
of
parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
series
of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not something
I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around for
other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but from
the
photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define left
or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
sleeve
of the operating cable.
So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
change
it if needed).
* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
going
off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if desired)
* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm length
that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one that is
a
row of holes.
For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard, 270-degree,
25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire
can
be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
rotate a 5k pot fully.
Comments/opinions/flak?
Regards
[Technik] James
_________________________________________________________________
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http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kaido Kert wrote:
On 4/12/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
> Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors for
> example, but UQM isnt selling.
<snip>
Actually they are selling, but their prices are insane for one set of
motor and controller, what they call a 'sample', costs $21k+
Maybe someone could make a friend at Phoenix and get some for the list
at their cost. :-)
I seriously think that it would be easier to convince either Hacker,
Lehner, MaxCim or any of the large RC builders to do a custom batch
for EV list.
The problem is, there are no off the shelf inverters ( apart from
industrial ones ) to run them, and more importantly, it would be
impossible to reach a concensus on the exact details of the motors (
KWs, poles, windings for trapezoidal BEMF or sinusoidal .. bearings
and so on )
To me, the way to do an open source AC drive is to start with an
ordinary industrial 10hp 240vac motor. They are common, affordable, and
easy to work on.
Make it a 4-pole, base speed 1750 rpm, so when you run it at 2x the
frequency, it only goes up to 3500 rpm, where balancing and bearing
issues won't cause problems.
Reconnect the 4 windings per phase all in parallel, to convert it into a
60vac motor. This needs to double to 120vac at 120hz, and the peak of
120vac is 170vdc, so you only need a 144-192vdc pack to make it work.
Build the inverter with IGBT modules; this avoids all the error-prone
parallelling of dozens of little MOSFETs.
Use a purchased 3-phase AC motor controller as the "brains". If it's one
of the demo ones sold by the semiconductor companies, you can "hack" it
to change the algorithms to your heart's content.
It should include motor voltage and current sensing, and a high priority
should be placed on having the software figure out the motor
characteristics for itself. Don't depend on the user to know or measure
the motor's characteristics, and have to program them into the
controller himself!
This plan won't lead to an ACP or Zilla-beating AC drive, but it will be
something that can actually be affordable, get built, and will work!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
Is 18 gage a suitable size for signal wires.
In particular I was thinking about using 2 conductor 18 gage telephone
wire from home depot for the connections between Ammeter gages (1 to a
motor loop shunt and 1 battery loop shunt) as well as the wiring for my
traction pack (144v) voltmeter?
Yes, #18 is fine. Even #30 would work for meters. BTW, I'd be surprised
if that phone cable was #18 -- #20 to #24 are a lot more common.
The main concern with instrumentation wiring is not the wire size, but
rather the insulation and shielding. In a car, you want good quality
insulation because it has to survive over a large temperature range, has
to handle shock and vibration, and should not have plasticizers that
bugs and rodents will eat. Cheap wire usually fails to meet one or more
of these criteria.
Shielding is useful in an EV because you can have high electrical noise
levels. If you are forced to have the instrumentation wires close to the
propulsion wiring, at least use twisted pairs. Coaxial cable is better
(center conductor is one wire, and the outer conductor is its return
wire). Or use shielded wire, where there are two conductors with and
outer shield that is grounded only at one end.
Also be aware of the insulation breakdown voltage. An instrumentation
wire that connects to the propulsion pack need high voltage insulation!
Phone wire or computer networking cable won't have this!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, long-time lurker (10 years on and off?)...
I have tons of questions about this EMIS thing. Steve
Clunn, you're listed as a dealer. Anything details you
can give us? Haven't seen much about it except the PR
(which of course makes it sound like it's plug and
play.) Maybe I haven't looked in the right places.
Anyone hear cost ballparks? Obviously it'll need the
standard stuff and the interface to pull data from the
car's computer should be fairly easy as it looks to be
pulling generic info.
P.S. Steve, tell me how my Porsche is coming along
when you work on this weekend :)
>you can make it hybrid if it is an automatic:
>http://www.go-ev.com/p20070301_EMIS_Release.html
--- Dirk Ouellette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello. I'm new to the list and have a general
> question.
> . What can I do about converting my 2003 F-150 to a
> less eco abusive
> vehicle? I bought it mainly to haul my catarafts to
> and from the local
> whitewater rivers here, around Portland, Oregon. I
> have the oppurtunity
> to convert the truck to all electric using a local
> distributor of
> http://www.metricmind.com/index1.htm, but this
> allows me only short
> trips and I must go 120- 150 miles in some round
> trips to rivers nearby.
> Suggestions please?
> Thanks, Dirk
> --
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
lol So that's what happened to it. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: Free Electravan
>
> Hmmm... that's interesting.
>
> The Electravan motor/trans combo on the evtradinpost.com just happens to
be in Berkeley also.
>
> Wish I was in Berkeley. Nah, not really. I like it here.
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
>
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:01:50 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I saw the Electravan. It is rough but no rougher than my Electravan was
> > when I got it. EVen in out dry environment the bottom of both fenders
had
> > rust at the bottoms. However the back battery box is intact with no
rust
> > from acid drip. Mine had several holes. It is mostly there. Needs new
> > windshield. No motor or transmission. The body is straight. Taking
this
> > for free will save mega time in EV construction. It EVen has the
> > highvoltage cables to the rear box intact. This is a durable vehicle.
> > I'd
> > run not walk into this project. It's all setup for electric conversion.
> > It's located in Berkeley. Call number below for details Don't contact
> > me
> > unless you have questions of the physical condition. Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Amber Rich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:26:06 -0700
> >> From: "Amber Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Subject: ElectraVan Body
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> We have an old ElectraVan body (motor has been taken
> >> apart over the
> >> years). It is in pretty rough shape. We would love
> >> to have it
> >> working for our organization, but we don't have the
> >> time or resources
> >> to do so, thus we are looking to get rid of the
> >> body. It may be that
> >> it just has to be sent to the scrap yard, but I
> >> wanted to check and
> >> see if someone out there might be able to make use
> >> of it since it
> >> seems to be a great moment in EV history, and
> >> hopefully just a
> >> beginning.
> >>
> >> We appreciate any advice that you may have.
> >>
> >> Amber Rich
> >> Executive Director
> >> Tinkers Workshop
> >> 510 644 2577
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
750
Very adaptable. I think it's a winner but my garage is full up. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: RE: Free Electravan
> Lawrence,
>
> Is this the Electravan 600 (Subaru mini-bus) or 750 (Ford Courier pickup
> conversion)?
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
> Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:58 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Free Electravan
>
>
> Hmmm... that's interesting.
>
> The Electravan motor/trans combo on the evtradinpost.com just happens to
be
> in Berkeley also.
>
> Wish I was in Berkeley. Nah, not really. I like it here.
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
>
>
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:01:50 -0700, "Lawrence Rhodes"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I saw the Electravan. It is rough but no rougher than my Electravan
> > was when I got it. EVen in out dry environment the bottom of both
> > fenders had rust at the bottoms. However the back battery box is
> > intact with no rust from acid drip. Mine had several holes. It is
> > mostly there. Needs new windshield. No motor or transmission. The
> > body is straight. Taking this for free will save mega time in EV
> > construction. It EVen has the highvoltage cables to the rear box
intact.
> This is a durable vehicle.
> > I'd
> > run not walk into this project. It's all setup for electric conversion.
> > It's located in Berkeley. Call number below for details Don't contact
> > me
> > unless you have questions of the physical condition. Lawrence
> > Rhodes.......
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Amber Rich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 15:26:06 -0700
> >> From: "Amber Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Subject: ElectraVan Body
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> We have an old ElectraVan body (motor has been taken apart over the
> >> years). It is in pretty rough shape. We would love to have it
> >> working for our organization, but we don't have the time or resources
> >> to do so, thus we are looking to get rid of the body. It may be that
> >> it just has to be sent to the scrap yard, but I wanted to check and
> >> see if someone out there might be able to make use of it since it
> >> seems to be a great moment in EV history, and hopefully just a
> >> beginning.
> >>
> >> We appreciate any advice that you may have.
> >>
> >> Amber Rich
> >> Executive Director
> >> Tinkers Workshop
> >> 510 644 2577
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would deffinetly be interested to hear more about this. Tons of
industrial equipment is run off AC right? I guess the hard thing to do
is get a controller rated at the high Amperage?
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: "largish" brushless motors available
Kaido Kert wrote:
> On 4/12/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> > Seriously, people have shown interest in UQM PM brushless motors
for
>> > example, but UQM isnt selling.
>> <snip>
>>
>> Actually they are selling, but their prices are insane for one set of
>> motor and controller, what they call a 'sample', costs $21k+
>>
>> Maybe someone could make a friend at Phoenix and get some for the
list
>> at their cost. :-)
>
> I seriously think that it would be easier to convince either Hacker,
> Lehner, MaxCim or any of the large RC builders to do a custom batch
> for EV list.
> The problem is, there are no off the shelf inverters ( apart from
> industrial ones ) to run them, and more importantly, it would be
> impossible to reach a concensus on the exact details of the motors (
> KWs, poles, windings for trapezoidal BEMF or sinusoidal .. bearings
> and so on )
To me, the way to do an open source AC drive is to start with an
ordinary industrial 10hp 240vac motor. They are common, affordable, and
easy to work on.
Make it a 4-pole, base speed 1750 rpm, so when you run it at 2x the
frequency, it only goes up to 3500 rpm, where balancing and bearing
issues won't cause problems.
Reconnect the 4 windings per phase all in parallel, to convert it into a
60vac motor. This needs to double to 120vac at 120hz, and the peak of
120vac is 170vdc, so you only need a 144-192vdc pack to make it work.
Build the inverter with IGBT modules; this avoids all the error-prone
parallelling of dozens of little MOSFETs.
Use a purchased 3-phase AC motor controller as the "brains". If it's one
of the demo ones sold by the semiconductor companies, you can "hack" it
to change the algorithms to your heart's content.
It should include motor voltage and current sensing, and a high priority
should be placed on having the software figure out the motor
characteristics for itself. Don't depend on the user to know or measure
the motor's characteristics, and have to program them into the
controller himself!
This plan won't lead to an ACP or Zilla-beating AC drive, but it will be
something that can actually be affordable, get built, and will work!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
EV calculators seem to need Peukert numbers for all batteries, even
though, strictly speaking, they apply to lead-acid batteries.
I'm looking at the Kokam SLPB 460330 series
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
and not finding much in the way of information that would allow me to
calculate Peukert numbers.
I think I can point you to all the information you need to calculate a
Puerkert's or Pseudo Perkert's yourself. I did an Excel spread sheet to
compare various Kokam cells but have not had a chance to clean it up and
post it to the ProEV website (www.ProEV.com).
Start at http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf . Go to the Large
Capacity Discharge Characteristics Charts. Kokam now offers three types of
cells: High Energy, High Power and Ultra High Power. Which cell is best for
your project depends on what rate you plan to discharge the cell.
Take a look at the graph for the Large Capacity Discharge Characteristics
chart for the High Energy cells on page 14, ( left hand side, middle chart).
At discharge rate up to 3C will give you 97% of rate capacity. For example,
the 100 amp-hr cell will give you 97 amp-hrs as long as your battery current
is less than 300 amps.
Now look at the 5C curve. It is down at 78%. In our case, we run the
Electric Imp flat out at 6C which is 600 amps for the whole race. On the
same page, in the right hand column is the Discharge Chart for High Powered
cells. At 8C, we should see 84-85% of rated capacity so that is a better
cell for our use.
The Ultra High Power cells ( page 15 , left hand , middle) would be even
better at 96-97% rated capacity at 10C but the largest Ultra High Capacity
cell Kokam offers so far is 12 amp-hrs.
Keep in mind this is not a free ride. The 100 amp-hr High Power cell weighs
2,700 grams, the 100 amp-hr High Energy cell weighs 2,320 or 380 grams less.
If your design will normally run below 1C and only need a peak of 3C, then
High Energy will give you the lightest pack.
The next step for getting a reasonable Pseudo Perkert's Capacity and
Exponent is to plug in the data. The closer you can decide on what your amp
draw is going to be, the more accurate the Pseudo Perkert's. Go to
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/Battery.html and scroll down to the first
method of calculating.
Example: A car using 100 amp-hr Kokam High Energy cells. Planning to run
currents between 33 and 100 amps. 33 amps is 1/3C. Large Capacity Discharge
Characteristics chart for the High Energy cells says 104% which means 104
amp-hrs over 3 hours, so a current of 104/3 = 34.67 amps for 180 minutes.
For 1C, the graph says 99% or 99/1= 99 amp for 60 minutes.
Plug is these values and it gives an instant Pseudo Perkert's Capacity of
122.89387624835726 and Pseudo Exponent of 1.0470502065536091.
Hope this helps,
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use a purchased 3-phase AC motor controller as the "brains". If it's one
of the demo ones sold by the semiconductor companies, you can "hack" it
to change the algorithms to your heart's content.
It should include motor voltage and current sensing, and a high priority
should be placed on having the software figure out the motor
characteristics for itself. Don't depend on the user to know or measure
the motor's characteristics, and have to program them into the
controller himself!
This plan won't lead to an ACP or Zilla-beating AC drive, but it will be
something that can actually be affordable, get built, and will work!
And thats exactly what i am aiming at, in the end, but i am starting
smaller, with a working setup modified to my hearts content. currently
just 3KW, but im hoping Powerex and IRF seven-packs in 10hp range
should be relatively painless drop-ins later on.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
why have a cable running to the controller ? why not run wires to the pot box
and mount the resistor in the pot box at the accelrator pedal ? and you con
make the mounting box with a right or left maount for the control arm and the
resistor siomply is mounted on the end of the control arm and there is no need
for figuring out cables !!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: Potboxes
Laser cut? Just buy an old erector set. That was my favorite toy growing
up, and I bet you could get a dozen pot boxes out of one :-)
damon
>From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Potboxes
>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:32 +1000
>
>At 10:30 PM 12/04/07 -0700, Cor van de Water wrote:
>>You can make a 270 deg rotation with the cable itself
>>if you really want:
>>Just take a small diameter pulley and mount that on
>>the pot axle.<snip>
>
>G'day Cor, and All
>
>I actually considered a pulley, I should have mentioned it. What counted a
>pulley out for me is thoughts of how big the pulley diameter needs to be
>for the bend radius of the cable, relative to the available movement of ICE
>throttle cables.
>
>The other thing is that in the low volumes that I'm considering is the
>significantly higher cost to use a pulley over using a lever arm. One-off
>the cost wouldn't worry me, I'd just turn up one. But in the 20 to 50
>volume that I think would make the lazer cutting of parts viable the pulley
>cost would become very significant.
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
>>Behalf Of James Massey
>>Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 8:35 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Subject: Potboxes
>>
>>G'day All
>>
>>I've been discussing off-list with a couple of guys alternatives to the
>>Curtis potboxes. The bottom line of the discussion comes to getting kits
>>of
>>parts laser cut to be able to assemble potboxes similar to the Curtis
>>series
>>of boxes, but with care in the design improve on them. It is not something
>>I'd expect to make any money out of, more as an item to trade around for
>>other things that I need, saving me money in other areas.
>>
>>I've never had a close look at any version of the Curtis boxes, but from
>>the
>>photos and sales guff on-line it seems that it is necessary to define left
>>or right handed actuation, and wether to have limit switch or not.
>>
>>Another thing I notice is that there is no cable anchor point for the
>>sleeve
>>of the operating cable.
>>
>>So what I see as improvements to the Curtis design is:
>>* Ability to assemble it left or right handed (and dis-assemble it to
>>change
>>it if needed).
>>* A "horn" of some description to mount the cable sleeve to (probably
>>going
>>off both sides to use a straight pull spring for the return spring).
>>* Holes to add a throttle-off limit switch (and a WOT switch if desired)
>>* Actuator arm consisting of a slotted, infinitely adjustable arm length
>>that is a pair of arms with the cable in between, rather than one that is
>>a
>>row of holes.
>>
>>For two-wire systems the pot seems obvious - use a standard, 270-degree,
>>25K-ohm pot and just move it the first 1/5 of the operating range.
>>
>>For 3-wire it gets more complex - either a wire-wound pot that the wire
>>can
>>be got at in order to "tap" the 1/5 rotation point, or a x5 gear set to
>>rotate a 5k pot fully.
>>
>>Comments/opinions/flak?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>[Technik] James
>
_________________________________________________________________
Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3<http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 15:31 -0400, ProEV wrote:
><snip>
>
> I think I can point you to all the information you need to calculate a
> Puerkert's or Pseudo Perkert's yourself. I did an Excel spread sheet to
> compare various Kokam cells but have not had a chance to clean it up and
> post it to the ProEV website (www.ProEV.com).
>
> Start at http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf . Go to the Large
> Capacity Discharge Characteristics Charts. Kokam now offers three types of
> cells: High Energy, High Power and Ultra High Power. Which cell is best for
> your project depends on what rate you plan to discharge the cell.
Cliff,
Yeah, I saw those charts, but I wasn't sure what part of the curve it
was reasonable to take the data points from....
><snip>
> Example: A car using 100 amp-hr Kokam High Energy cells. Planning to run
> currents between 33 and 100 amps. 33 amps is 1/3C. Large Capacity Discharge
> Characteristics chart for the High Energy cells says 104% which means 104
> amp-hrs over 3 hours, so a current of 104/3 = 34.67 amps for 180 minutes.
> For 1C, the graph says 99% or 99/1= 99 amp for 60 minutes.
OK, so reading between the lines a bit, it looks like you're taking the
data point at or even below 3.0 volts. That gives a much better Pseudo
Peukert than what I was doing which was taking it at the nominal voltage
of 3.7 volts.
>
> Plug is these values and it gives an instant Pseudo Perkert's Capacity of
> 122.89387624835726 and Pseudo Exponent of 1.0470502065536091.
>
> Hope this helps,
It certainly does. Thanks!
--Steve
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
