EV Digest 6906

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Battery Warranties - How to get them to give me replacements
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Off-road GEM!
        by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Obama, Cantwell, Hatch BILL to Aid PHEV's
        by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Off-road GEM!
        by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) DO NOT RESPOND: No reply yet from Union 76
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: Int battery co. site
        by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Battery Warranties - How to get them to give me replacements
        by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Series/parallel battery question
        by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) New EVDL survey (take two)
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy plain text
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: TS cell exchange...
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
        by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) 12 volt in-line fuse
        by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: TS cell exchange...
        by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: 12 volt in-line fuse
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Donor and Design Suggestions
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Charging VRLAs?
        by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Made the jump
        by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Made the jump
        by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: 12 volt in-line fuse
        by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Made the jump
        by Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: full size truck conversion
        by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
to be an issue.  So, I didn't even bring them back.  I
simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
months.

Now, the tricky part.  They have this "battery
tester."  This is where the fun will begin.  Of
course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter.  If
the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
say - "Looks good to me." "Put them on a charger." "They are fine."

A tricky situation indeed!

A warranty is intended as insurance against defects in materials or workmanship. It is not intended to cover abuse or misuse of the product. So, the first big question is whether these batteries failed due to defects, or abuse?

If these are your typical marine or starting batteries, and not specifically "deep cycle", then it's not surprising that they failed after 500 miles. This would be a misapplication problem. Then the question is whether the *store* recommended them for your application, or whether *you* chose them for EV use without the store's advise or consent.

If these really are deep cycle batteries, I'd get the manufacturer's data sheet and see what it lists for cycle life at various depths of discharge. They will have this data for deep cycle batteries, but not for marine/starting batteries. A 12v flooded deep cycle battery will be rated for at least 200 cycles at 80% depth of discharge. Even with a 20-mile range on your EV, that would be over 4000 miles.

The tester for a deep-cycle battery is different than for a starting battery. If the store sells deep-cycles, they should have a tester for them. It will put a load on the battery (like 25 amps) and measure how many minutes it takes to fall to some cutoff point (like 10.5v for a 12v battery). This is the "reserve minutes" rating for the battery. If your batteries don't come close to meeting the reserve capacity, they are shot.

Lastly, did they die from abuse? Did you drive until the EV would barely move, and reverse some cells? Did you overcharge for hours on end until the batteries were low on water? Did you "floor it" and draw huge currents that pulled the batteries far below 12 volts?

My guess is that you got marine/starting batteries instead of deep-cycle batteries. If the store was involved in this decision, I would suggest talking to the store manager to find a compromise. Tell him, "We screwed up. It looks like we picked the wrong battery for the job. Let's find a battery that will work; and I'll buy them from you if you contribute half the cost of the old batteries."

I know that Sam's Club has true deep-cycle batteries; they are part of Walmart, so they can presumably get whatever Sam's Club can get.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I spotted this article online and thought some of you might get a kick
out of it. I'd love to see a video of it in action.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/16/all-electric-gem-vehicle-gets-off-road-makeover/

I would think those modifications would drain your range, but then
again you could add more batteries with that suspension.

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- This looks like a good bill. Check it out and write your senators and congresmen to support the bill.
(Better than $10,000 tax breaks for HUMMERS !)

Check it out at:
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=277029

OR the entire TEXT at:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827

--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a closer look, it's obviously been converted to CNG or
something.  What a shame for an electric to be converted to gas. :(

But there is a place doing GEM modifications.
http://www.toyjunkies.com/gem_cars.shtml

On 6/16/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I spotted this article online and thought some of you might get a kick
out of it. I'd love to see a video of it in action.
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/16/all-electric-gem-vehicle-gets-off-road-makeover/

I would think those modifications would drain your range, but then
again you could add more batteries with that suspension.

--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel



--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, please do not respond to this off topic post.  If you have comments, 
please send them directly to the original poster.

The EVDL is not an appropriate forum for complaining about oil companies' 
policies.  If you have a concern about that matter, building or acquiring an 
EV will let you reduce your use of their products.  That's the kind of 
positive action that this list was created for.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking at the specs, I see self discharge rate listed at "<3% monthly".
Isn't that an extremely high self discharge rate for Lithium?
-MT

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john fisher
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Int battery co. site

try this:
http://www.internationalbatteryinc.com/sheetspdf/
dreadfully bad website.

jukka wrote:
> The company is:
> 
> International Battery Inc.
> 81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
> phone 210-444-3232
> 
> www.internationalbatteryinc.com
> 
> -Jukka
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I purchased the Maxx29's at Walmart and tried them in
my conversion, not knowing any better.  I took them
back, fully charged after a few months, and told them
they couldn't hold up to my requirements.  They
connected that battery tester they have to them. It
printed out some sort of load test, and they gave me
my money back.  Of course, I had asked them if they
could special order some golf cart batteries for me,
since these just didn't do the job, they couldn't, so
I told them I'd go over to SamsClub and purchase the
golf cart batts there.  With all that, they didn't
hesitate to give me my money back on the batteries. Be
sure and clean them and wipe them down with armorall
just to make them look as good as the day you 
purchased them, it'll help in the long run.  


--- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So, I have my batteries.  All 10 of them.  The first
> one, I lost thr receipt, so I am going to have to
> eat
> the money on that one.  I have the receipts for the
> other 9 batteries.  They are 2 months old, about 50
> -
> 60 cycles, about 500 EV miles.  Now, they have lost
> 1/2 of their original capacity and as such are
> useless
> in my EV.
> 
> I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
> to be an issue.  So, I didn't even bring them back. 
> I
> simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
> be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
> batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
> months.
> 
> Now, the tricky part.  They have this "battery
> tester."  This is where the fun will begin.  Of
> course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter.  If
> the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
> say - "Looks good to me."  "Put them on a charger." 
> "They are fine."
> 
> I don't want to haul those things from store to
> store
> trying to get someone to take them back.  So, what
> do
> I do.  What exactly are they testing?  Maybe it does
> have some light load on that DVM.  How bad do they
> have to be.  
> 
> The thing is, if I drive it around for another 2
> weeks, they are sure to reverse a few cells, warp
> some
> plates, boil off lots of acid, sulfate even more ...
> 
> But, I'll end up getting stranded somewhere.
> 
> So, how do I get from where I am now - 1/2 of the
> capacity is gone to "these things are so dead they
> are
> only good as a paper weight." to "Here's a new set
> of
> batteries.  Thank you very much."
> 
> I have a 700 Watt inverter that can pull 50 A or so.
> 
> I could cycle them another 20 - 50 times in the
> hopes
> that they will go completely dead.  But, in the
> meantime, I am EV less.  I need someway to convince
> them to take them back as is, or get them to a point
> where they are completely useless without getting
> stranded on the side of the road.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
> the added security of spyware protection.
>
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
> 
> 


M. Barkley
   
  www.texomaev.com
   
  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thank you that answers my question.

"Lead-acid batteries in parallel tend to self-balance"
is what i needed to hear

yes the ASCII was not meant to give wire placements
just the location of the powercheqs, sorry for the
confusion

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> dale henderson wrote:
> > resending with an attempt to fix the ASCII
> graphics
> 
> Dale, I'm still having trouble figuring out what you
> are asking. The 
> ASCII graphics are fine; but they don't make sense.
> 
> Powercheq modules have *three* wires, but your
> illustrations imply only 
> two. Powercheqs only work for 12v battery pairs.
> 
> "Buddy pairs" means two identical batteries in
> parallel. For example, 
> two 12v 50amphour batteries in parallel to make one
> 12v 100amphour 
> battery. The Powercheqs don't know or care what the
> amphour capacity of 
> the battery is, or whether each 12v battery is one
> or many in parallel.
> 
> >> if anyone has any experience with or advise on
> how
> >> to keep a series/parallel battery pack balanced
> please
> >> respond to the following questions.
> 
> Lead-acid batteries in parallel tend to
> self-balance. You don't need to 
> do anything except run wires between them. It works
> best when they are 
> the same make and model, and at the same
> temperature. Just treat them 
> the same as one battery whose amphour capacity is
> the sum of that of the 
> each battery.
> 
> Batteries in series are much harder to balance. For
> floodeds, most 
> people don't bother -- the cost is greater than the
> benefit. For sealed 
> batteries, you pretty much have to bite the bullet
> and use some kind of 
> balancing or they will die young.
> 
> The cheapest option are the zener-lamp regulators
> described many times 
> on this list. More expensive options include the
> Powercheqs you 
> mentioned, the Rudman regulators, my Battery
> Balancer, individual 
> chargers per battery, and various other approaches.
> -- 
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> 
> 


Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, 
photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SJSU plans to soon convert the EVDL to a Mailman mailing list processor.  

Mailman has some options which we can configure.  I'd like your opinions on 
some of them, so I'm conducting an anonymous online survey.  There are only 
6 questions, and it shouldn't take more than about that many minutes to 
respond.

I announced this survey about a week ago.  So far I've had almost 100 
responses.  But if you missed the original announcement or for some other 
reason you haven't yet voted, please open this link with your browser 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Ro8WTM5CB0Gmrz40wq0qLg_3d_3d

and let me know what you think.

Thanks!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jun 2007 at 5:54, John Wayland wrote:

> The automotive press got a
> good laugh when Solectria's outrageously priced $40,000 Metro was introduced.

I'd like to correct a misconception here. I don't know where John got this 
figure, but it's not quite correct.

For most of its production, the basic Solectria Force was generally in the 
$30-35k range.  The first generation (1992) cost $29,950.  By 1994, the base 
price had actually gone down - to $26,050 - probably because of increased 
production.

One model, the higher performance Force GT, was very expensive (almost $60k 
in 1994) because it had nicad batteries and dual motors and controllers.  
Very few of these were sold, probably because of the high price. 

I think I recall the standard lead acid Force peaking at about $36k right 
before Solectria began buying gliders from GM in the late 1990s.  
Eliminating the cost of the ICE running gear, and the labor to remove it, 
dropped the Force's price back to about $30k.  

AFAIK, the most commonly sold Force models never reached $40k. 

That said, I won't try to argue that offering a car that looks like a Geo 
Metro, but costs in the $30k range, makes for an easy sell.  But calling the 
Force a $40,000 car is just not accurate.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jukka wrote:
The company is:

International Battery Inc.
81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
phone 210-444-3232

www.internationalbatteryinc.com

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
... and I happen to know the owner personally, Joe Szetella (sp?) whom
I met at EVS-23 in Japan last October. 'Course since then we discussed cells distribution and BMS situation. He's based in New York.

My thought on this is that Victor was the person who ordered the cells from Thunder Sky, so he is the one that Thunder Sky should compensate. I think the ethical thing for Thunder Sky to do would either be to refund some or all of the money, or replace the defective cells with suitable replacements, or provide some mechanism for credit. This would demonstrate that they realize they made a mistake, and are willing to correct it.

Victor then has the list of his customers that received the bad cells. He would be the logical person to contact each buyer to see what form of compensation was appropriate. Some may have been satisfied with the cells they received. Others may want to return them for replacement. Others may no longer have the defective cells, and would prefer a refund or credit.

Jukka, I've heard testimonials from a number of people that say ThunderSky cells can perform very well. I have no doubt that if they can deal with the quality and warranty issues, they would have a product that could sell very well in the US. But, *nobody* sells batteries without a warranty! Only crooks would sell them, and only fools would buy them! They have to deal with these issues, one way or another.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- My old Sevcon died and I'm looking for a drop-in replacement for my 108V vehicle. Most of the newer DC/DCs are designed to operate at higher input voltages and would be marginal performers in this particular car.

Many of you have upgraded to higher voltage systems. If you're one of those people who happens to have a Sevcon 128/12 laying around and you'd consider selling it please contact me offlist with your price.

Thanks,
-Dave

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave

I can't help with your search for a replacement, but can you tell us the circumstances of its death?

Did you have a heat sink on it? Was it exposed to the weather? How long did it live?

I do have a 128/12 that I will use in my hopefully-soon-to-be-on-the-road ev (104V), and I would like to avoid any mistakes installing and using it.

Thanks

Phil


From: Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:32:12 -0400

My old Sevcon died and I'm looking for a drop-in replacement for my 108V vehicle. Most of the newer DC/DCs are designed to operate at higher input voltages and would be marginal performers in this particular car.

Many of you have upgraded to higher voltage systems. If you're one of those people who happens to have a Sevcon 128/12 laying around and you'd consider selling it please contact me offlist with your price.

Thanks,
-Dave


_________________________________________________________________
Don’t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  I need to place an inline fuse on my 12 volt side.  Between the battery and 
the rest of the system.  I have no idea what size.  Any ideas?  I have an Iota 
DC-DC converter capable of 45 amps and a small 23 amp hour, sealed lead acid 
accessory battery.  Thanx.

R. Matt Milliron

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
            Hi Lee and All,
                 For the price I'd think 2 strings of
surplus BB600 Ni-cads would do you real well, especially in
the colder months in Minn!! The 1c rate would be around 75
amphrs so maybe beat the Concords, Powersonics in real
range. The BB600's would weigh I think 3.3 lbs x 200 cells
so 660 lbs. If under $8/cell with connectors, cheaper than
AGM's by a fair amount, not including they should last 20+
yrs.
                And it could be the last time you will ever
have to change it's batteries.
                 Bad points are a lot of watering but that
can be only every several months with a good charge regime.
A small price to pay for lower cost batteries.
                And you could sell your battery balancer as
it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
them to work!!

                                  Jerry Dycus



>
>David Brandt wrote:
>> Hi, Lee.  I can recommend power-sonic's for your
>> application.  They are like the concorde's you used.  Not
>> high rate, but longish life, rectangular, available in a
>> lot of sizes, and they have built in handles.
>> 
>> I got good tech support from them, and I have tested them
>> on a 500A draw (with a carbon pile tester - the zilla is
>> set at 375A max limit right now), and the voltage stays
>> relatively stiff (nothing like optimas, of course, but
>> enough for how you have said you drive your EV.
>> 
>> I have three spares - if you want I can ship you one to
>> test to see if you would like it, Let me know offlist and
>> I'll give you my phone number.  I would like to get some
>> relief on the shipping cost, though.
>> 
>> I got the 100 Ahr ones for $135 each.  Had to pay about
>> $100 for home delivery, but that is definitely worth it.
>
>I've used lots of small Power-Sonic batteries, and they
>have worked  well. Not the longest life or lowest internal
>resistance, but a good  bargain for the price. I've never
>tried any of their bigger ones.
>
>$140 each is a great price! Where did you buy, and what
>model did you  get? My present batteries are 12"L x 6.6"W x
>9"H -- the Power-Sonic  PS121000 looks like a good match.

>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
5:32 PM

In my case I bought only my first order of cells in 2003 through Victor and the Victor purchase represented only a little more than 1/6 of the Watt-hour capacity I bought that year of poor quality cells. So I would prefer to get the whole lot dealt with at one time directly through Jukka, if this will be possible. It would be more efficient for the pickup and recycling aspects also.

Doug


----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: TS cell exchange...


jukka wrote:
The company is:

International Battery Inc.
81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
phone 210-444-3232

www.internationalbatteryinc.com

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
... and I happen to know the owner personally, Joe Szetella (sp?) whom
I met at EVS-23 in Japan last October. 'Course since then we discussed cells distribution and BMS situation. He's based in New York.

My thought on this is that Victor was the person who ordered the cells from Thunder Sky, so he is the one that Thunder Sky should compensate. I think the ethical thing for Thunder Sky to do would either be to refund some or all of the money, or replace the defective cells with suitable replacements, or provide some mechanism for credit. This would demonstrate that they realize they made a mistake, and are willing to correct it.

Victor then has the list of his customers that received the bad cells. He would be the logical person to contact each buyer to see what form of compensation was appropriate. Some may have been satisfied with the cells they received. Others may want to return them for replacement. Others may no longer have the defective cells, and would prefer a refund or credit.

Jukka, I've heard testimonials from a number of people that say ThunderSky cells can perform very well. I have no doubt that if they can deal with the quality and warranty issues, they would have a product that could sell very well in the US. But, *nobody* sells batteries without a warranty! Only crooks would sell them, and only fools would buy them! They have to deal with these issues, one way or another.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, jerryd wrote:

                And you could sell your battery balancer as
it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
them to work!!

I would consider NiCad batteries for my '66 Datsun but I'm not aware of any current sources for used ones. Any leads would be appreciated.

Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Matt,

The IOTA DC-DC should be be fuse with a 30 amp fuse.  The main 12 volt 
battery fuse can be a bolt in 200 amp fuse which should go to a fuse block. 
The branch fuse to each device will range from 30 to 4 amps as needed.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 4:24 PM
Subject: 12 volt in-line fuse


>
>   I need to place an inline fuse on my 12 volt side.  Between the battery 
> and the rest of the system.  I have no idea what size.  Any ideas?  I have 
> an Iota DC-DC converter capable of 45 amps and a small 23 amp hour, sealed 
> lead acid accessory battery.  Thanx.
>
> R. Matt Milliron
>
> 

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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,

I have been kicking around the idea of building another EV. My Civic conversion is okay as a daily commuter, but in hindsight I have come to realize that simple flooded lead-acid batteries are far more cost effective and forgiving than AGMs and gel-cells. Also, my situation has changed a bit and a four seater would be a better match to my needs than a two seater. I have been trying to put together a profile of my actual needs and get some idea of what kind of vehicle would make a suitable donor. Here are my specs for the resulting EV:

4 passenger (driver plus 3), ideally giving each their own door, though I guess an extended cab pickup with jump seats might work since the distances would be fairly short.

30-40 mile useable range at city street speeds without excessively risking battery life.

Top speed of at least 70 mph for occasional free way travel.

Acceleration at least equal to a fully loaded mini van.

Able to be air conditioned and heated as needed for comfort.

New enough to have airbags and side impact beams.

So, any donor suggestions? I don't have the budget for exotic lightweight batteries, so I am thinking this is going to take something pretty capable to carry 800 odd pounds of passengers plus 800 to 1200 pounds of batteries without completely burying the GVW. Am I asking for too much?

Thanks,



Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position. (Horace)
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I have just been given a free pack of 8 12 volt/ 40 ah batteries. The
markings of their side say: 'TUDOR AGM Valve Regulated Lead Acid 40ah'.

Any tips charging them?

As I have 96 volts and I only need 48 for my testing purposes, should I
buddy pair them or make two strings?

thanks.


-- 
Eduardo K.            | 
http://www.carfun.cl  | Freedom's just another word
http://ev.nn.cl       | for nothing left to lose.
                      |     

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--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2007-06-16 at 12:08 -0400, Bob Rice wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dennis Foulke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 9:45 PM
> Subject: Made the jump
> 
> 
> >I decided that I did not have the time to dedicate to building/converting 
> >my own EV so I just ordered a NmG from Myers Motors.   I can't wait to get 
> >it and terrorize the people in Beavercreek, OH... :-)
> >   Well, Dennis, keep us posted on progress. Can ya DRIVE it home from the 
> > Plant in Tallmadge OH to Beaver Creek?Or stop for lunch somewhere along 
> > the way and plug-er-in?You certainly will get attention and a bit of free 
> > power, too.Be ready to do Show an' Tell EVerywhere!
> 
>     Have Fun!
> 
>     Bob



Dennis,

I'm 45 miles SW of Tallmadge, you can do some charging here.  I know of
an EV'er in Lancaster who might let you plug in.

Rich

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--- Begin Message --- Could you give us some more info on Ni-cads in general, comparison with lead, Nimh and Li. and where to get them?

Thanks,
Tehben

On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:24 PM, jerryd wrote:


            Hi Lee and All,
                 For the price I'd think 2 strings of
surplus BB600 Ni-cads would do you real well, especially in
the colder months in Minn!! The 1c rate would be around 75
amphrs so maybe beat the Concords, Powersonics in real
range. The BB600's would weigh I think 3.3 lbs x 200 cells
so 660 lbs. If under $8/cell with connectors, cheaper than
AGM's by a fair amount, not including they should last 20+
yrs.
                And it could be the last time you will ever
have to change it's batteries.
                 Bad points are a lot of watering but that
can be only every several months with a good charge regime.
A small price to pay for lower cost batteries.
                And you could sell your battery balancer as
it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
them to work!!

                                  Jerry Dycus




David Brandt wrote:
Hi, Lee.  I can recommend power-sonic's for your
application.  They are like the concorde's you used.  Not
high rate, but longish life, rectangular, available in a
lot of sizes, and they have built in handles.

I got good tech support from them, and I have tested them
on a 500A draw (with a carbon pile tester - the zilla is
set at 375A max limit right now), and the voltage stays
relatively stiff (nothing like optimas, of course, but
enough for how you have said you drive your EV.

I have three spares - if you want I can ship you one to
test to see if you would like it, Let me know offlist and
I'll give you my phone number.  I would like to get some
relief on the shipping cost, though.

I got the 100 Ahr ones for $135 each.  Had to pay about
$100 for home delivery, but that is definitely worth it.

I've used lots of small Power-Sonic batteries, and they
have worked  well. Not the longest life or lowest internal
resistance, but a good  bargain for the price. I've never
tried any of their bigger ones.

$140 each is a great price! Where did you buy, and what
model did you  get? My present batteries are 12"L x 6.6"W x
9"H -- the Power-Sonic  PS121000 looks like a good match.

Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net




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--- Begin Message ---
That looks like fun :D
What color did you choose :)

Tehben

On Jun 15, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Dennis Foulke wrote:

I decided that I did not have the time to dedicate to building/ converting my own EV so I just ordered a NmG from Myers Motors. I can't wait to get it and terrorize the people in Beavercreek, OH... :-)

--
Dennis Foulke

"Every reform was once a private opinion."  - Ralph Waldo Emmerson


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--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Matt Milliron wrote:

I need to place an inline fuse on my 12 volt side. Between the battery and the rest of the system. I have no idea what size. Any ideas? I have an Iota DC-DC converter capable of 45 amps and a small 23 amp hour, sealed lead acid accessory battery. Thanx.

My first idea is to use the wire size you want to as an indication. With a 10 gauge wire around 30 amps would be about what the wiring should take (really it should be more like 20 amps, but 30 amps would be more typical of automotive wiring.)

You should look at the fusing situation in more general terms, including the existing vehicle 12v system (what is fused, what is not fused, and where.) What would it take to run the 12 volts system if the Iota blew out and you had to drive home on a dark rainy night? I doubt 30 amps would handle it but this situation would require the battery to provide all the power. You may need to upgrade some wire as well.

This may work out better if you fuse the Iota instead of the battery. In that case I'd suggest a 50 amp fuse that blows fairly quickly. When a vehicle is converted to EV its quite possible to keep much of the 12 volt system intact (and that could be your case.) What becomes different is the staying power of a DC>DC converter compared to an alternator. If you get a good solid short in a ICE vehicle the whole car will shut down, stopping the alternator from putting out power (no 12v power will kill the ICE.) Hopefully, the rest of the 12v system was designed to handle the fault current until some fuse or fusible link in the stock wiring could disconnect the battery and clear the problem. (in practice, many vehicle 12v systems are not that well built and rely on driver action, wiring failure, or even the battery going dead in case of a shorted starter or ammeter)

I've had the pleasure of completely rewiring a couple of cars. The first one was heavily protected leaving only the big wire from the battery to the starter (and so the insides of the starter) to chance. I've wiring my EV Buggy twice, once as an ICE and once as an EV. In both cases I skimped on fusing but went heavy on the wiring itself (the only 16 and 18 gauge wires are grounded or ground seeking.) In the case of the buggy I protect the entire 12v system with 2, 16 amp fuses. I didn't put a 12v battery in it so the 2 fuses are on the output of an older Todd PC20-LV DC>DC converter. (its a low power 12v system) If I where to add a backup 12v battery I would protect it with a 20 amp fuse and connect it with 10 gauge wire (and it would probably be a little 10 to 15 amp hour AGM.)

More details about what you are protecting would allow for much better answers.

HTH,
Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I found this post with lots of good information about NiCad from our esteemed David:

http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.html

Tehben Dean wrote:
Could you give us some more info on Ni-cads in general, comparison with lead, Nimh and Li. and where to get them?

Thanks,
Tehben

On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:24 PM, jerryd wrote:




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The NnM I'm getting will be teal in color. That color looked really sharp on the pictures of another car they made. Now to get a dedicated 20 Amp circuit pulled into the garage before the car gets here.

Dennis Foulke

"Every reform was once a private opinion."  - Ralph Waldo Emmerson



Tehben Dean wrote:
That looks like fun :D
What color did you choose :)

Tehben


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
are we talking about peak power or continuous 


--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> By the time you take motor and controller looses
> into account, 30kw is
> roughly equal to 30hp.
> So 30kw is good for any vehicle that would normally
> have a 30 hp motor,
> these days that would be...um...nothing really.
> 
> But seriously, as long as you don't mind being a
> little slow off the line,
> 30kw is ok for something small, Geo Metro or similar
> size.  Or something
> slow, souped up NEV perhaps.
> 
> Most folks consider the 400 amp Curtis to be under
> powered.  The 400 Amp
> curtis will produce almost 45kw.
> 
> > PETER
> > so what weight can you use a 30 kw (dc ?) motor on
> as I am looking at
> > getting a 3000 kg flat deck truck
> > Owen
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
> >
> >
> >> Ok, try reading the subject AND the body befor
> replying.
> >>
> >> We aren't talking about 'most' EVs, we are
> talking about a 'Large Truck'
> >> (subject line) that is towing a trailer
> (mentioned several times in the
> >> body)
> >>
> >> 30 kw is barely adequate in a small, lightweight,
> EV.  Actually most
> >> people would find 30kw less than acceptable.
> >>
> >>> I think with a battery pack and a reasonable EV,
> 190kw is excessive.
> >>> Maybe
> >>> up hill and accel, yes, but that's what the huge
> battery buffer is for.
> >>>
> >>> 30kw would probably do a great job for most
> EV's.
> >>
> >> I have a small, lightweight EV with a 30kw drive
> system.  It's a 1988
> >> toyota pickup thar weighs 3200 lbs. With only
> 30kw available it takes 80
> >> seconds to get to 60 mph (and no, I did NOT
> forget the decimal point)
> >>
> >> A large truck that weighs 3x as much would
> probsbly NEVER reach 60 mph
> >> on
> >> 30 kw, and it couldn't tow a trailer up a
> driveway.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> -Phil
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:05 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Assuming you don't have huge ammounts of money
> sitting
> >>>> around...commonly
> >>>> available motors and generators are going to be
> 80%-90% efficient.
> >>>> Towing a trailer requires lots of power, towing
> up hill requies HUGE
> >>>> ammounts of power.
> >>>>
> >>>> For simplicities sake, let's assume we only
> need 200 hp (at the
> >>>> wheels)
> >>>> to
> >>>> tow uphill.  Let's also assume we are using the
> more affordable 80%
> >>>> eff
> >>>> motors/generators (this way we can keep the
> project under $100,000).
> >>>>
> >>>> So 200 hp at the wheels requires about 190KW
> input power to the
> >>>> motor/controller.  To generate 190kw requires
> about 320 hp mechanical
> >>>> input to the generator.
> >>>>
> >>>> So instead of needing a 200 hp motor we need a
> 320 hp motor, plus huge
> >>>> generator and a huge electric motor.
> >>>>
> >>>> Normal hybrids would use a smaller
> motor/generator and get the extra
> >>>> power
> >>>> from batteries.  This would work if you never
> had to climb a hill that
> >>>> took longer than about 5 minutes to get to the
> top, and didn't need to
> >>>> climb another hill for at least and hour or
> two.  That's a pretty rare
> >>>> circumstance if you are towing any distance.
> >>>>
> >>>> The Army had a hybrid Hummer developer back in
> the 90s.  It made a lot
> >>>> of
> >>>> improvements over the normal hummer, better
> mileage, power, etc.
> >>>> It also used $150,000 worth of high efficiency
> motors/generators, and
> >>>> it
> >>>> weighed so much that it only had enough cargo
> capacity left for a
> >>>> couple
> >>>> soldiers and their personal gear.  It had
> virtually no towing
> >>>> capacity.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Stuart, Peter and the group,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Given the weight problem of batteries as the
> sole source of power for
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric
> generator + batteries as a
> >>>>> power source?  (Basically a diesel hybrid)  I
> know that Toyota/Hino
> >>>>> have
> >>>>> been operating light trucks in Japan with this
> power train starting
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> 2001.  All I get is a stone wall when I ask
> Toyota/Hino about them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My real question is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the
> lines of a 1/2 or 3/4
> >>>>> ton
> >>>>> pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a
> travel trailer?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> J.J. Hayden
> >>>>> Long time lurker
> >>>>>
> >>>>> J.J. Hayden
> >>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has
> > 4 lines of legalistic
> >>>> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do
> >>>> whatever
> >>>> I
> >>>> wish with the message.  By posting the message
> you agree that your
> >>>> long
> >>>> legalistic signature is void.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has >
> 4 lines of legalistic
> >> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever
> >> I
> >> wish with the message.  By posting the message
> you agree that your long
> >> legalistic signature is void.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message.  By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
> 
> 
=== message truncated ===


Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman


       
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