EV Digest 6907

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) The batteries that failed after 500 miles were "deep cycle"
        by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: full size truck conversion
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
        by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: The batteries that failed after 500 miles were 'deep cycle'
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) FormulaI
        by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
        by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Made the jump
        by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: What batteries to try next?
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) IMPORTANT:  Re: TS cell exchange...
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Off-road GEM!
        by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Battery Warranties - How to get them to give me replacements
        by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Made the jump
        by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: What batteries to try next?
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
See further comments below ....

Steve Powers wrote:
> I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
> to be an issue.  So, I didn't even bring them back. 
I
> simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
> be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
> batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
> months.
> 
> Now, the tricky part.  They have this "battery
> tester."  This is where the fun will begin.  Of
> course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter.  If
> the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
> say - "Looks good to me."  "Put them on a charger." 
> "They are fine."

A tricky situation indeed!

A warranty is intended as insurance against defects in
materials or 
workmanship. It is not intended to cover abuse or
misuse of the 
product. 
So, the first big question is whether these batteries
failed due to 
defects, or abuse?

If these are your typical marine or starting
batteries, and not 
specifically "deep cycle", then it's not surprising
that they failed 
after 500 miles. This would be a misapplication
problem. Then the 
question is whether the *store* recommended them for
your application, 
or whether *you* chose them for EV use without the
store's advise or 
consent.

If these really are deep cycle batteries, 

-> Yes absolutely, they truely are deep cycle and
labeled as such ...  Well, at least they are labeled
and sold as deep cycle.  I in fact believe that they
were mislabeled by the manufacturer and they are in
fact starting batteries.  They make both models and
they look identical on the outside.



I'd get the manufacturer's 
data sheet and see what it lists for cycle life at
various depths of 
discharge. They will have this data for deep cycle
batteries, but not 
for marine/starting batteries. 

-> I tried to get it.  No luck.  But, they are deep
cycle.



A 12v flooded deep cycle battery will be 
rated for at least 200 cycles at 80% depth of
discharge. Even with a 
20-mile range on your EV, that would be over 4000
miles.

-> Yes.  This is exactly what I expected.  I only used
50% DOD.  Never overcharged them.  Never ran them
under 50% DOD.  Always charger them promptly.  Still
only 50 cycles.



The tester for a deep-cycle battery is different than
for a starting 
battery. If the store sells deep-cycles, they should
have a tester for 
them. It will put a load on the battery (like 25 amps)
and measure how 
many minutes it takes to fall to some cutoff point
(like 10.5v for a 
12v 
battery). This is the "reserve minutes" rating for the
battery. If your 
batteries don't come close to meeting the reserve
capacity, they are 
shot.

-> I know that they should be tested for reserve
capacity, but the tester I saw looks like it only
tests CCA, not reserve capacity.  I need to go back
and discuss with them more.


Lastly, did they die from abuse? 

-> I don't think so.  Really, I knew their
characteristics from the day I put them in.  I treated
them wery well, expecting 12-18 month of use.  I only
got 2 months.


Did you drive until the EV would 
barely 
move,

-> Absolutely not.  I never took it over 8 miles.

 and reverse some cells? 

-> Never.  I checked the resting voltage immediately
after stopping and it ranged from 12.4 - 12.6,
depending on traffic and speed for my 8 miles.


Did you overcharge for hours on end until 
the batteries were low on water?

-> No, checked the water.  Water level is and always
has been fine.  Never added any.  Never needed any.


 Did you "floor it" and draw huge 
currents that pulled the batteries far below 12 volts?

-> With my wimpy controller and the traffic around
here, very unlikely.  I can't say exactly what the
loaded voltage was, but I don't think it was below 12
V on any given cell. 

My guess is that you got marine/starting batteries
instead of 
deep-cycle 
batteries.

-> That's what I think too, but they are lebeled as
deep cycle, and I paid the higher price to get deep
cycle.

 If the store was involved in this decision, I would
suggest 
talking to the store manager to find a compromise.

-> They knew what I was going to use them for.  

-> Still don't know what to do about all this.

 Tell him, "We 
screwed 
up. It looks like we picked the wrong battery for the
job. Let's find a 
battery that will work; and I'll buy them from you if
you contribute 
half the cost of the old batteries."

I know that Sam's Club has true deep-cycle batteries;
they are part of 
Walmart, so they can presumably get whatever Sam's
Club can get.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net




      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We are talking maximum power, as in the maximum power the SYSTEM is
capable of delivering.  Granted this is usually only for a few minutes,
but if you need to draw max power for more than a few minutes, you need a
more powerfull system.

In my case the system was mostly limited by the batteries.  The only time
the 120V pack of 8V batteries could deliver more than 30kw (without
sagging to low) was when they were fully charged.
Theoretically my controller (120V x 350A) could pass almost 40kw to the
motor, but that would require a stiff, freshly charged pack of AGMs.

Perhaps it's a tad unfair to compare the max E-motor system power to the
Peak ICE power, since it's rare that the ICE will ever hit the precise
point where it can produce Peak power.
Maybe I should have compared a 30kw system and say a 35hp ICE.  However,
the point is still valid, you can't buy a new car with a 35hp ICE either. 
The last I can recall was the mid '50s VW Bug (36hp actually, but still
generally considered a vastly under-powered vehicle)

> are we talking about peak power or continuous
>
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> By the time you take motor and controller looses
>> into account, 30kw is
>> roughly equal to 30hp.
>> So 30kw is good for any vehicle that would normally
>> have a 30 hp motor,
>> these days that would be...um...nothing really.
>>
>> But seriously, as long as you don't mind being a
>> little slow off the line,
>> 30kw is ok for something small, Geo Metro or similar
>> size.  Or something
>> slow, souped up NEV perhaps.
>>
>> Most folks consider the 400 amp Curtis to be under
>> powered.  The 400 Amp
>> curtis will produce almost 45kw.
>>
>> > PETER
>> > so what weight can you use a 30 kw (dc ?) motor on
>> as I am looking at
>> > getting a 3000 kg flat deck truck
>> > Owen
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2007 4:24 PM
>> > Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
>> >
>> >
>> >> Ok, try reading the subject AND the body befor
>> replying.
>> >>
>> >> We aren't talking about 'most' EVs, we are
>> talking about a 'Large Truck'
>> >> (subject line) that is towing a trailer
>> (mentioned several times in the
>> >> body)
>> >>
>> >> 30 kw is barely adequate in a small, lightweight,
>> EV.  Actually most
>> >> people would find 30kw less than acceptable.
>> >>
>> >>> I think with a battery pack and a reasonable EV,
>> 190kw is excessive.
>> >>> Maybe
>> >>> up hill and accel, yes, but that's what the huge
>> battery buffer is for.
>> >>>
>> >>> 30kw would probably do a great job for most
>> EV's.
>> >>
>> >> I have a small, lightweight EV with a 30kw drive
>> system.  It's a 1988
>> >> toyota pickup thar weighs 3200 lbs. With only
>> 30kw available it takes 80
>> >> seconds to get to 60 mph (and no, I did NOT
>> forget the decimal point)
>> >>
>> >> A large truck that weighs 3x as much would
>> probsbly NEVER reach 60 mph
>> >> on
>> >> 30 kw, and it couldn't tow a trailer up a
>> driveway.
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> -Phil
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:05 PM
>> >>> Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Assuming you don't have huge ammounts of money
>> sitting
>> >>>> around...commonly
>> >>>> available motors and generators are going to be
>> 80%-90% efficient.
>> >>>> Towing a trailer requires lots of power, towing
>> up hill requies HUGE
>> >>>> ammounts of power.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For simplicities sake, let's assume we only
>> need 200 hp (at the
>> >>>> wheels)
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> tow uphill.  Let's also assume we are using the
>> more affordable 80%
>> >>>> eff
>> >>>> motors/generators (this way we can keep the
>> project under $100,000).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So 200 hp at the wheels requires about 190KW
>> input power to the
>> >>>> motor/controller.  To generate 190kw requires
>> about 320 hp mechanical
>> >>>> input to the generator.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> So instead of needing a 200 hp motor we need a
>> 320 hp motor, plus huge
>> >>>> generator and a huge electric motor.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Normal hybrids would use a smaller
>> motor/generator and get the extra
>> >>>> power
>> >>>> from batteries.  This would work if you never
>> had to climb a hill that
>> >>>> took longer than about 5 minutes to get to the
>> top, and didn't need to
>> >>>> climb another hill for at least and hour or
>> two.  That's a pretty rare
>> >>>> circumstance if you are towing any distance.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The Army had a hybrid Hummer developer back in
>> the 90s.  It made a lot
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> improvements over the normal hummer, better
>> mileage, power, etc.
>> >>>> It also used $150,000 worth of high efficiency
>> motors/generators, and
>> >>>> it
>> >>>> weighed so much that it only had enough cargo
>> capacity left for a
>> >>>> couple
>> >>>> soldiers and their personal gear.  It had
>> virtually no towing
>> >>>> capacity.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Stuart, Peter and the group,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Given the weight problem of batteries as the
>> sole source of power for
>> >>>>> a
>> >>>>> pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric
>> generator + batteries as a
>> >>>>> power source?  (Basically a diesel hybrid)  I
>> know that Toyota/Hino
>> >>>>> have
>> >>>>> been operating light trucks in Japan with this
>> power train starting
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>> 2001.  All I get is a stone wall when I ask
>> Toyota/Hino about them.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> My real question is:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the
>> lines of a 1/2 or 3/4
>> >>>>> ton
>> >>>>> pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a
>> travel trailer?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> J.J. Hayden
>> >>>>> Long time lurker
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> J.J. Hayden
>> >>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has
>> > 4 lines of legalistic
>> >>>> junk at the end; then you are specifically
>> authorizing me to do
>> >>>> whatever
>> >>>> I
>> >>>> wish with the message.  By posting the message
>> you agree that your
>> >>>> long
>> >>>> legalistic signature is void.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has >
>> 4 lines of legalistic
>> >> junk at the end; then you are specifically
>> authorizing me to do whatever
>> >> I
>> >> wish with the message.  By posting the message
>> you agree that your long
>> >> legalistic signature is void.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
>> lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically
>> authorizing me to do whatever I
>> wish with the message.  By posting the message you
>> agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
> FareChase.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a related note:

Does anyone have any more info on SBS (Storage Battery Systems) in WI?

They have a line of flooded NiCad rated for motive use, even valve regulated ones. The low current pocket plate (KPM series) is rated for 2C at 60 seconds - 1C for 20 minutes, and the medium current (KPH) is 3-1/2C for 60 seconds - 2C for 10 minutes - and just under 1C for one hour.

http://storsystems.thomasnet.com/category/ll-category-batteries-nickel-cadmium-batteries-wet


I found a 2003 price sheet from a distributor here:

http://americantechsupply.com/sbs2003.pdf



Paul wrote:
On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, jerryd wrote:

                And you could sell your battery balancer as
it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
them to work!!

I would consider NiCad batteries for my '66 Datsun but I'm not aware of any current sources for used ones. Any leads would be appreciated.

Paul "neon" G.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here it is 400 amp 30 volt..Its  Going into a Geo metro.. I bought a kit
from ebay.. Probably even one of you guys sold it to me 


Thoughts on this Motor?
 
-------Original Message------- 
 
From: Lee Hart 
Date: 6/16/2007 12:43:59 PM 
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu 
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator 
 
Phelps wrote: 
>> So this is my project now a aircraft starter generator on a Geo 
>> metro convertible The motor is 400 amp at 300 volts permanent 
>> magnet. 
 
> I hooked it up to a single 12 volt battery today to see what it would 
> do. It ran slow but it ran. Dam did those wires get hot. Any way is 
> 4 gage what is commonly used between the batteries? 
 
4 gauge is WAY too small for these motors. They are low-voltage, high 
Current machines. You'll have to run at least #0. 
 
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what you have. Your first post 
Calling it a "400 amp 300 volt permanent magnet" motor must have been 
Wrong. Later posts imply that it is a Jack & Heinz 400 amp 30 volt 
Aircraft generator -- is that correct? 
 
If it is a 30 volt starter-generator, it will have 3 big stud terminals 
And two small stud terminals. The terminals on mine were labelled like this:

 
. D small stud: -shunt field (internally connected to E) 
O C large stud: +series field 
O B large stud: -series field and +armature 
O E large stud: -armature and -shunt field (ground) 
. A small stud: +shunt field 
 
To run it as a motor: 
 
1. Connect the negative terminal of a 12v battery to "E". 
2. Connect the positive terminal of a 12v battery to "A". 
(this powers the shunt field) 
3. Last, connect the positive terminal of your 12v battery to "C" 
(this powers the armature with the series field in series) 
 
It should run slowly in the correct direction (arrow marked on the 
Case), and draw on the order of 20-30 amps. 
 
Disconnecting the wire to "A" removes the shunt field, which makes it 
Draw a lot more current and run a lot faster. 
 
Don't touch the wires to the studs themselves; they will spark and 
Damage the threads so it is hard to get a nut on. Instead, bolt a wire 
Or piece of metal to the studs, and make your final connections to it. 
 
Internally, mine was wires like this (view with a fixed-width font): 
 
________________________________. D 
| _ _ 
| ______________| | |________O C 
| _|_ | series 
| / \ | 
| \___/armature |______________O B 
| |_ 
| _| 
| _| interpoles 
| |___________________________O E 
| | 
| |* _ _ _ 
|____|_____________| | | |_______. A 
Shunt 
 
The wire shown with the asterisk (*) is an internal wire with a ring 
Terminal on each end. One end is connected to a brush screw, and the 
Other end to a ring terminal to terminal D. Disconnect this wire to 
Completely separate the shunt field from the armature and series fields. 
This allows electrical reversing of the motor by reversing the shunt 
Field power. 
 
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring 
Forget the perfect offering 
There is a crack in everything 
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen 
-- 
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net 
 
 
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--------------Boundary-00=_KEBR9Y21VA4000000000"
X-Mailer: IncrediMail (5652991)
From: "Phelps--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:19:33 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: The batteries that failed after 500 miles were 'deep cycle'
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>  Did you "floor it" and draw huge
> currents that pulled the batteries far below 12 volts?
>
> -> With my wimpy controller and the traffic around
> here, very unlikely.  I can't say exactly what the
> loaded voltage was, but I don't think it was below 12
> V on any given cell.
>

WHAT!!??!!?  You don't have a system voltmeter?  Why on earth not?  They
are dirt cheap and the absolutle minimum instumentation you should have. 
Without it you don't have a clue as to whether or not you are abusing the
batteries.

Seriously, you can't guess at that.  As far as you know, you were dragging
the batteries down to 6V every time you left a stop. Given what you've
descibed, this is what I'd guess has happened.

-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:59:07 -0400
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: FormulaI
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline


I went today to the final race of 2006 season (a bit late due to a crash
las december) of FormulaI. Its a race between a dozen college-student
built EVs. They have strict rules on howmucho to spend so most
of them end up making everything themselves, including controllers.

Here are some pictures: http://www.nn.cl/Autos/EV/Formulai/

(I was there cheering for the red car, that came dead last due to mischarged
batteries) :( 


-- 
Eduardo K.            | 
http://www.carfun.cl  | Freedom's just another word
http://ev.nn.cl       | for nothing left to lose.
                      |     
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:31:48 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hmm interesting, but expensive.  To meet the power requirements for a
vehicle with mediocure performance, you'd need at least a 20kwh pack and
it would cost about $25,000.  I'm not exactly sure how much it would weigh
though, I'm guessing quite a bit.

> On a related note:
>
> Does anyone have any more info on SBS (Storage Battery Systems) in WI?
>
> They have a line of flooded NiCad rated for motive use, even valve
> regulated ones. The low current pocket plate (KPM series) is rated for
> 2C at 60 seconds - 1C for 20 minutes, and the medium current (KPH) is
> 3-1/2C for 60 seconds - 2C for 10 minutes - and just under 1C for one
> hour.
>
> http://storsystems.thomasnet.com/category/ll-category-batteries-nickel-cadmium-batteries-wet
>
>
> I found a 2003 price sheet from a distributor here:
>
> http://americantechsupply.com/sbs2003.pdf
>
>
>
> Paul wrote:
>> On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, jerryd wrote:
>>
>>>                 And you could sell your battery balancer as
>>> it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
>>> new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
>>> there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
>>> them to work!!
>>
>> I would consider NiCad batteries for my '66 Datsun but I'm not aware
>> of any current sources for used ones. Any leads would be appreciated.
>>
>> Paul "neon" G.
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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legalistic signature is void.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:19:09 -0400
From: Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Phil,

Heat sink... yes. It was bolted vertically to the 1/8" thick flat 
aluminum firewall with the outputs facing down. The firewall isn't a 
perfect heat sink but it got the job done. It would get quite warm 
around the Sevcon but not hot. I never bothered to measure the temperature.

How long did it live?  Since 1994. I'm the 3rd owner, though I haven't 
used it very much.

Exposed to weather? Not really. The inside of the Sevcon showed no 
evidence of weathering. I don't think it ever got wet.

I'm not sure why it quit. It was pretty old. The failure mode was a dead 
"on" light accompanied by much more notable 12V external fuse flash. 
Turns out there was a short across the 12V outputs. Since the auxiliary 
battery was connected as a load, the 12V Sevcon fuse was being blown 
from auxiliary battery's inrush current. The circuit board inside the 
Sevcon also has a 30A "slo-blo" fuse which was not blown but the traces 
around it had let go and were no longer conducting. I soldered in some 
patch wire and determined one of the main 12V diodes (1N5828) to be the 
cause of the dead short. I ordered a replacement (NTE6084) from Mouser 
and installed it earlier today... but no luck. The main output 
capacitors were fine. Seems like the damage is deeper... something else 
on the logic board or more likely the IRF340's are blown, too.

Still looking for a replacement.

-Dave


Phil Marino wrote:
> Dave
> 
> I can't help with your search for a replacement, but can you tell us the 
> circumstances of its death?
> 
> Did you have a heat sink on it?  Was it exposed to the weather? How long 
> did it live?
> 
> I do have a 128/12 that I will use in my 
> hopefully-soon-to-be-on-the-road ev (104V), and I would like to avoid 
> any mistakes installing and using it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
>> From: Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Sevcon 128/12V DC/CD Wanted
>> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:32:12 -0400
>>
>> My old Sevcon died and I'm looking for a drop-in replacement for my 
>> 108V vehicle. Most of the newer DC/DCs are designed to operate at 
>> higher input voltages and would be marginal performers in this 
>> particular car.
>>
>> Many of you have upgraded to higher voltage systems. If you're one of 
>> those people who happens to have a Sevcon 128/12 laying around and 
>> you'd consider selling it please contact me offlist with your price.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -Dave
>>
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from 
> Microsoft Office Live 
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
> 
> 
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:45:46 -0400
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Made the jump
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     Hey, congratulations! I'm jealous as can be. Admittedly the NmG
is not my favorite car, but it does look like a little barrel of fun,
and I'm still stuck driving a stinky gasser. Here's wishing you a wide
'EV grin' for each dollar you spend, and another for each watt you put
in the pack.

On 6/15/07, Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I decided that I did not have the time to dedicate to
> building/converting my own EV so I just ordered a NmG from Myers
> Motors.   I can't wait to get it and terrorize the people in
> Beavercreek, OH... :-)
>
> --
> Dennis Foulke
>
> "Every reform was once a private opinion."  - Ralph Waldo Emmerson
>
>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:35:30 -0800
From: Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: What batteries to try next?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
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The price sheet is for VRLA (lead acid) 2 volt cells, not the Ni-Cd's.

A 220AH VRLA cell weighs about 36 lbs.  To get 120V worth it would be 60 x 35 
lbs = 2160 lbs for a 24KWH pack.  Way too much for a
little car. Not to mention the price.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 7:32 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
>
>
> Hmm interesting, but expensive.  To meet the power requirements for a
> vehicle with mediocure performance, you'd need at least a 20kwh pack and
> it would cost about $25,000.  I'm not exactly sure how much it would weigh
> though, I'm guessing quite a bit.
>
> > On a related note:
> >
> > Does anyone have any more info on SBS (Storage Battery Systems) in WI?
> >
> > They have a line of flooded NiCad rated for motive use, even valve
> > regulated ones. The low current pocket plate (KPM series) is rated for
> > 2C at 60 seconds - 1C for 20 minutes, and the medium current (KPH) is
> > 3-1/2C for 60 seconds - 2C for 10 minutes - and just under 1C for one
> > hour.
> >
> > http://storsystems.thomasnet.com/category/ll-category-batteries-nickel-cadmium-batteries-wet
> >
> >
> > I found a 2003 price sheet from a distributor here:
> >
> > http://americantechsupply.com/sbs2003.pdf
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul wrote:
> >> On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, jerryd wrote:
> >>
> >>>                 And you could sell your battery balancer as
> >>> it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
> >>> new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
> >>> there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
> >>> them to work!!
> >>
> >> I would consider NiCad batteries for my '66 Datsun but I'm not aware
> >> of any current sources for used ones. Any leads would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Paul "neon" G.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:56:26 -0700
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: IMPORTANT:  Re: TS cell exchange...
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Lee and all,

I do not mind to go through it. Though it is no my fault that
we were deceived by TS and I warned everyone about unknown risks,
(and at the end personally lost most the money since bought 96 90Ah 
cells worth ~$9600), I somehow feel responsible. My money don't bother 
me so much - it's the others who was tempted to try TS's cells,
just like myself. It is scary to hold $30k of someone else's money
and be responsible for it.

At one point Otmar even emailed me off line that by organizing this buy 
and convincing poor fellows to plunge I provided disservice to EVers.
Frankly, this kind of reaction was quite an insult and discouragement 
from trying
new things with absolutely best intentions, so next time it won't be me.
But OK, this is not about me, it's about people who listened to
me and trusted TS just like I did.
And I did because prior to group buy I bought and have
tested two TS-LP100 100Ah cells and they performed quite well -
they delivered >90% of rated capacity at about 0.5C in my tests
which was more than enough for high voltage application like
mine where I draw 18A at 35 MPH and 45A on a freeway. I thought this
is typical representation of that the build. And in fact it was -
for 100Ah cells, and perhaps new 90Ah ones as well. We just got old
ones instead.

Well, this is past history but I feel obligated to do what I can to
help to restore my fellow EVer's faith into TS, and group buy idea
like this in general. It's OK if I'm compensated last if ever.

But I have no power or means to do it at all, I'm just one of their
customers as any of you. Jukka who works with TS now, has more power
and can pressure management to take care of us for their own benefit
(more buys in future will outweigh their loss of ~$20k they will have
to pay us, but I'm not sure TS understands that (or wants to 
understand). But ultimately initiative should come from TS owner
Winston Chung whom I had opportunity to meet in person while
visiting TS together with Jukka.

The person who made all this mess no longer works for TS, but current
management still does not appear to recognize any wrong doing.
They may recognize mentally but not to the point of doing something
about it, and this is where Jukka who is the only person in direct
contact with them can influence them.

As far as I know only 90Ah cells were defective, and people who bought
those are entitled for compensation. I dare to think compensation by 
supplying us good batteries we paid for will be acceptable rather than 
paying us money and it is easier for TS to swallow, but they have to 
offer options. Couple of people who bought 50Ah cells (very few, about 
50 cells) and 100Ah (about 150 cells) cells are quite happy since those
were freshly produced unlike 90Ah military rejects which were suppose to 
be recycled instead of being sold to us. However, if any of those people
is honestly unhappy, TS must take care of them as well. Can anyone with
50Ah or 100Ah cells report how they performed (at least back in 2003)?

It will only make sense to create lists and dig up old documentation
about it if TS intend to do something and just wait for info.
If they don't care now as they were back then, it's a waste of time.

I have correspondence (off line) with Jukka about this, but let him
comment that our options and chances are.

Victor


Lee Hart wrote:
> jukka wrote:
>>> The company is:
>>>
>>> International Battery Inc.
>>> 81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
>>> phone 210-444-3232
>>>
>>> www.internationalbatteryinc.com
> 
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> ... and I happen to know the owner personally, Joe Szetella (sp?) whom
>> I met at EVS-23 in Japan last October. 'Course since then we discussed 
>> cells distribution and BMS situation. He's based in New York.
> 
> My thought on this is that Victor was the person who ordered the cells 
> from Thunder Sky, so he is the one that Thunder Sky should compensate. I 
> think the ethical thing for Thunder Sky to do would either be to refund 
> some or all of the money, or replace the defective cells with suitable 
> replacements, or provide some mechanism for credit. This would 
> demonstrate that they realize they made a mistake, and are willing to 
> correct it.
> 
> Victor then has the list of his customers that received the bad cells. 
> He would be the logical person to contact each buyer to see what form of 
> compensation was appropriate. Some may have been satisfied with the 
> cells they received. Others may want to return them for replacement. 
> Others may no longer have the defective cells, and would prefer a refund 
> or credit.
> 
> Jukka, I've heard testimonials from a number of people that say 
> ThunderSky cells can perform very well. I have no doubt that if they can 
> deal with the quality and warranty issues, they would have a product 
> that could sell very well in the US. But, *nobody* sells batteries 
> without a warranty! Only crooks would sell them, and only fools would 
> buy them! They have to deal with these issues, one way or another.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:59:09 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
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jerryd wrote:
> Hi Lee and All, For the price I'd think 2 strings of surplus BB600
> Ni-cads would do you real well, especially in the colder months in
> Minn! And you could sell your battery balancer as it would no longer
> be needed, using the money to pay for the new batteries or the
> Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out there and only about 1-2,000
> being used, it's time we put them to work!!

Now that's an interesting plan. I *could* sell the Balancer, though I 
don't know if it would pay for a set of BB600 cells.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:56:08 -0700
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

At 03:59 PM 6/16/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
>Now that's an interesting plan. I *could* sell the Balancer, though 
>I don't know if it would pay for a set of BB600 cells.

The biggest problem would be finding any BB600 cells for sale.
There just aren't any.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Off-road GEM!
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Yep it's a gas conversion. The place that does those
conversions is in town called Toy Junkies. They do
lift some of them and leave them electric but others
get the gas conversion. I've raised a little bit of
heck with the DMV over them too because they often
will not report that they have converted them to gas
and retain the alternative fuel license plates on
them. This gets the cars cheaper registration.

Rick


> > Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 12:02:09 -0500
> From: "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Off-road GEM!
> 
> After a closer look, it's obviously been converted
> to CNG or
> something.  What a shame for an electric to be
> converted to gas. :(
> 
> But there is a place doing GEM modifications.
> http://www.toyjunkies.com/gem_cars.shtml
> 
> On 6/16/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I spotted this article online and thought some of
> you might get a kick
> > out of it. I'd love to see a video of it in
> action.
> >
>
http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/16/all-electric-gem-vehicle-gets-off-road-makeover/
> >
> > I would think those modifications would drain your
> range, but then
> > again you could add more batteries with that
> suspension.
> >
> > --
> > Brandon Kruger
> > http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
> > http://cafepress.com/altfuel
> >


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:40:44 -0700
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No comparison or availability info there, but good stuff nonetheless. I'm 
curious about relative storage density for various battery types. Anyone 
ever seen a chart?

Lon Hull
Superstructure Industries LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>I found this post with lots of good information about NiCad from our 
>esteemed David:
>
> http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.html
>
> Tehben Dean wrote:
>> Could you give us some more info on Ni-cads in general, comparison with 
>> lead, Nimh and Li. and where to get them?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tehben
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2007, at 2:24 PM, jerryd wrote:
>>
>>
>>
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:46:23 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Warranties - How to get them to give me replacements
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I had a completely different experience at Wal-Mart with the Maxx29.

I had it in my camper van.  Within a year, it would be fully charged by 
either my plug-in charger or after I'd been driving and then once I 
stopped/unplugged it would drop below 10.5V within minutes of low amp 
draws.  The specific gravity of one cell was way way off.  Dead cell, 
probably shorted.

That tester isn't just a voltmeter, it's supposed to be reading Cold 
Cranking Amps, but I don't see how, it's a small hand meter with no 
heatsink or vents and couldn't load hundreds of amps.  This batt was 
totally shot, couldn't supply squat, and the meter still read hundred of 
CCA, well above their tolerance.  The manager said no way would he 
exchange it, period.  I argued to no end that the batt was useless and 
he said he had the procedure the mfg and corporation provided and that's 
what they go by, didn't care what I said about it having no capacity, 
and he was doing his job.

I went home and TOTALLY DRAINED the electrolyte out of the batt.  Came 
back to a different store (like you can swing a dead cat without hitting 
a Wal-Mart).  They put it on their crappy meter.  It STILL READ "GOOD".  
I'm not kidding.  I then just said my prob was it was leaking and they 
said "ok never mind then just get a new batt".  Job done.

Danny

Michael Barkley wrote:

>I purchased the Maxx29's at Walmart and tried them in
>my conversion, not knowing any better.  I took them
>back, fully charged after a few months, and told them
>they couldn't hold up to my requirements.  They
>connected that battery tester they have to them. It
>printed out some sort of load test, and they gave me
>my money back.  Of course, I had asked them if they
>could special order some golf cart batteries for me,
>since these just didn't do the job, they couldn't, so
>I told them I'd go over to SamsClub and purchase the
>golf cart batts there.  With all that, they didn't
>hesitate to give me my money back on the batteries. Be
>sure and clean them and wipe them down with armorall
>just to make them look as good as the day you 
>purchased them, it'll help in the long run.  
>
>
>--- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>So, I have my batteries.  All 10 of them.  The first
>>one, I lost thr receipt, so I am going to have to
>>eat
>>the money on that one.  I have the receipts for the
>>other 9 batteries.  They are 2 months old, about 50
>>-
>>60 cycles, about 500 EV miles.  Now, they have lost
>>1/2 of their original capacity and as such are
>>useless
>>in my EV.
>>
>>I know getting them replaced under warranty is going
>>to be an issue.  So, I didn't even bring them back. 
>>I
>>simply went to the place of purchase (yes that would
>>be the local WalMart store) and told them about the
>>batteries and the fact that they went bad in only 2
>>months.
>>
>>Now, the tricky part.  They have this "battery
>>tester."  This is where the fun will begin.  Of
>>course, that thing is probably just a voltmeter.  If
>>the batts read anything near 12 V, they are going to
>>say - "Looks good to me."  "Put them on a charger." 
>>"They are fine."
>>
>>I don't want to haul those things from store to
>>store
>>trying to get someone to take them back.  So, what
>>do
>>I do.  What exactly are they testing?  Maybe it does
>>have some light load on that DVM.  How bad do they
>>have to be.  
>>
>>The thing is, if I drive it around for another 2
>>weeks, they are sure to reverse a few cells, warp
>>some
>>plates, boil off lots of acid, sulfate even more ...
>>
>>But, I'll end up getting stranded somewhere.
>>
>>So, how do I get from where I am now - 1/2 of the
>>capacity is gone to "these things are so dead they
>>are
>>only good as a paper weight." to "Here's a new set
>>of
>>batteries.  Thank you very much."
>>
>>I have a 700 Watt inverter that can pull 50 A or so.
>>
>>I could cycle them another 20 - 50 times in the
>>hopes
>>that they will go completely dead.  But, in the
>>meantime, I am EV less.  I need someway to convince
>>them to take them back as is, or get them to a point
>>where they are completely useless without getting
>>stranded on the side of the road.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>       
>>
>>    
>>
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>  
>
>>Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with
>>the added security of spyware protection.
>>
>>    
>>
>http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
>  
>
>>    
>>
>
>
>M. Barkley
>   
>  www.texomaev.com
>   
>  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135
>
>  
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Made the jump
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:50:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Did you enquire about the battery upgrade they say is coming soon on their 
weebsite? I'm curious when they'll be available, what type they'll be, and 
at what cost. Might be worth an extra few grand to could get 100-mile range.

> On 6/15/07, Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I decided that I did not have the time to dedicate to
>> building/converting my own EV so I just ordered a NmG from Myers
>> Motors.   I can't wait to get it and terrorize the people in
>> Beavercreek, OH... :-)
>>
>> --
>> Dennis Foulke
>>
>> "Every reform was once a private opinion."  - Ralph Waldo Emmerson
>>
>>
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 01:39:44 -0700 (MST)
Subject: RE: What batteries to try next?
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

The price sheet shows several different types of batteries, including NiCads.
My comments were about the NiCads.

> The price sheet is for VRLA (lead acid) 2 volt cells, not the Ni-Cd's.
>
> A 220AH VRLA cell weighs about 36 lbs.  To get 120V worth it would be 60 x
> 35 lbs = 2160 lbs for a 24KWH pack.  Way too much for a
> little car. Not to mention the price.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
>> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2007 7:32 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
>>
>>
>> Hmm interesting, but expensive.  To meet the power requirements for a
>> vehicle with mediocure performance, you'd need at least a 20kwh pack and
>> it would cost about $25,000.  I'm not exactly sure how much it would
>> weigh
>> though, I'm guessing quite a bit.
>>
>> > On a related note:
>> >
>> > Does anyone have any more info on SBS (Storage Battery Systems) in WI?
>> >
>> > They have a line of flooded NiCad rated for motive use, even valve
>> > regulated ones. The low current pocket plate (KPM series) is rated for
>> > 2C at 60 seconds - 1C for 20 minutes, and the medium current (KPH) is
>> > 3-1/2C for 60 seconds - 2C for 10 minutes - and just under 1C for one
>> > hour.
>> >
>> > http://storsystems.thomasnet.com/category/ll-category-batteries-nickel-cadmium-batteries-wet
>> >
>> >
>> > I found a 2003 price sheet from a distributor here:
>> >
>> > http://americantechsupply.com/sbs2003.pdf
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Paul wrote:
>> >> On Jun 16, 2007, at 3:24 PM, jerryd wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>                 And you could sell your battery balancer as
>> >>> it would no longer be needed, using the money to pay for the
>> >>> new batteries or the Sunrise. With 11,000 ni-cad cells out
>> >>> there and only about 1-2,000 being used, it's time we put
>> >>> them to work!!
>> >>
>> >> I would consider NiCad batteries for my '66 Datsun but I'm not aware
>> >> of any current sources for used ones. Any leads would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Paul "neon" G.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---

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