EV Digest 6915

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact your 
senator...
        by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  6) Re: Max motor temperatures and temp sender install
        by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Google Gets It - It's the Plug, Stupid
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  8) RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact your 
senator...
        by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Solectria Force Contactor?
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Throw it out with the trans!!, Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.
        by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Max motor temperatures and temp sender install
        by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) To clutch or not to clutch, that is the question...
        by "Thomas Brannan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Max motor temperatures and temp sender install
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) EV are for girls blog
        by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) newbie questions on resources
        by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: EV are for girls blog
        by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact your 
senator...
        by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
        by Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: EV are for girls blog
        by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It does indeed cushion. The two outer discs are attached to the motor
shaft coupler through the four bolts. The middle disc which is darker
in colour is part of the splined hub. The springs transfer the forces
from the outer discs to the middle disc and hub.



On 6/19/07, Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I haven't got a disc handy to look at.  Does that thing cushion anymore?
Look at the tight fit of the splined hub in that plate, not much room for
rotation.  I think the part that holds the facing material is what gives,
and that's been cut off.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.


> My Fiat has a rubber donut on the transmission output shaft. You can
> also retain the clutch springs when making the coupler. Here.s an
> example: http://www.electric-lemon.com/files/images/Coupler.jpg
>
> On 6/19/07, Marty Hewes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Has anyone running without clutch and flywheel or with direct drive
>> (motor
>> to driveshaft variety) on the street experienced such failures?
>> Obviously
>> an electric motor of reasonable size without flywheel or clutch has a
>> whole
>> lot less rotational mass than an ICE with a 30 pound flywheel, might be a
>> little less of the "between a rock and a hard place" going on.
>>
>> Anybody know of a rubber donut or something that could go in the
>> driveshaft?
>>
>> Marty
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 5:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.
>>
>>
>> > The bad thing about removing the clutch from the system is that you
>> > also
>> > remove the springs in the center of the clutch. You are also removing
>> > the
>> > torque-peak-limiting feature of the clutch. They put those springs in
>> > there for a good reason.
>> >
>> > When you go over a pot hole or railroad tracks, HUGE torque spikes
>> > travel
>> > backwards through the drive train. The clutch center springs and the
>> > clutch itself greatly reduce and limit these torque peaks.
>> >
>> > If you eliminate the clutch (and its springs) you will shorten the life
>> > of
>> > the transmission and differential gears significantly. The torque peaks
>> > will fatigue the gear teeth and they will chip and fail. The bearings
>> > won't like it much either.
>> >
>> > Bill Dube'
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>




--
www.electric-lemon.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, then according to the text on page 11 about conversions, the
lesser of 
a)$2000 + ($400/kwh over 2.5kwh)
OR
b) 50% of the battery pack cost 
If your going to get a lead acid pack then b will be less.  The old
credit here in Colorado was better.

Which means for me: rethink batteries! Prices I found are approximate
(and old).
At 96v:
16 Trojan T145 @$180ea = 2880/2 = $1440 credit 23.424kwh
18 US-185HC @ 150ea = 2700/2 = $1350 credit 46.44kwh
18 Optima D31T @ $206ea = 3708 = $1854 credit 16.2kwh

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Now if they will just pass the thing!  Right now they can't agree on
anything. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Beth Silverman
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:24
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact
your senator...

Here is info on the bill about plug-in hybrids and where it is in the
legislative process:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d110:1609:./list/bss/d110SN.lst:
:|TOM:/bss/110search.html|

Here is the actual text of the bill:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827

To find your senator and contact him/her:
http://www.senate.gov/
see "Find Your Senators" in the upper righthand corner Most of them make
it easy to send them an email.  

You can just say "S1617" and they will know what you're talking about.


Beth

********************************************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information 
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the intended 
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You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- For me at least, the question is not whether a flywheel and clutch would make shifting quicker or easier, it's whether it's worth the range hit caused by spinning up all that rotational mass. Did you measure the impact on range when you installed the clutch? Did you add a flywheel? What was the weight of the clutch and flywheel?

Marty

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.


Geez folks..welcome to Back yard engineering!!

I spent a few grand years ago to ditch clutcheless EV driving..

Your Guys are playing with low power EVs and can deal with funky hard to
operate vehicles.

Keep the clutch!!!! Then anyone can drive it.

This is so like 1992 for me.
Yea it works... If you like to drive Franenstien level EV.

Come folks... I shift in milliseconds..just like everybody Else with a real
car and tranny.

Keep the clutchless EV to those that can't afford to do it right in the
first place.

Been there done that.. won't go back.
Got a 4 puck copper plate in Goldie
And a 8  puck sintered plate in the Fiero.


Madman




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
maybe a range of 100-400V and around 3-500A

I've seen the simple text book circuits but there is of course more to it. I need to supply the low voltage components from the unknown 100-400v supply
efficiently
I've looked for switching voltage regulators components for that but haven't found any
and don't know how to make it discretely

Dan

Rich Rudman wrote:
then.. memory refresh cycle to BUCK mode.

How low... How much current...?
Want 400 amps of 4 volts or 50 amps of 50 or 20 amps of 120??

I am not sure this effort is worth my time.

You know buck but you can't look up FET and IGBT Buck circuits???
Humm..

Have fun

Madman



----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?


and I know about buck and boost. aim higher.
things of actual use to me would be thermal experience with specific
devices. can they actually do as the specs say. what kind of
heatsink/environment gives what kind of Tc for a given current in a
given transistor.
I'm also looking to know what kind of circuitry can efficiently supply a
low voltage from an unknown 100-400v dc source and that source alone

Rich Rudman wrote:
Got yer power supply topology chart handy???
Look up Buck mode... That's the controller...
Look up Boost mode and Buckboost and Buck, On the fly of the grid's sine
wave for my power stage.

Digi Krime is a  book of many opertunities... you make them as you see
fit.
Ot buys direct as so do I from manufactures Reps for the power Sand, The
small stuff is Miser and Digikrime....

I am not sure if this is fun or torture...

Madman






--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, Richard,

Class H insulation is 180 degree C.  Meaning at 180C,
insulation will last 10,000 hours(or half life of
10,000).  It depends where the thermal sensor is
located in the motor.  Cannot be in the armature, that
is hard to do because it rotates.  So, I'm guessing,
it is in the field coil.  Now it depends on the motor
design, but the ones I worked with years ago, would,
on the one hour temp rise test, have the armature
reach rated temp first.  So there would be a
differential between the arm and field coil temps. 
The temp sensor would be selected to that field coil
temp which related to arm temp limit.  So the
assumption would be that when your temp sensor trips,
the hottest part of the motor is at limit.

Having a 120C temp would indicate that you should back
off or end the trip soon, probably not stop at the
side of the road and wait for the motor to cool down. 
You might also add forced air cooling if you find the
temp light coming on often.

As for motor temperature in general, at the end of
thermal rating tests I used to run, it was not
uncommon to have the outside of the motor frame at
100C.  As for the brushes, we used to install
thermocouples in the brush by carefully drilling a
hole in the top of the brush, insulating the TC with
epoxy and then insterting the TC into the epoxy filled
hole.  On short time based thermal runs, like 5 or 10
minutes or shorter, the brush would be the limiting
temperature for the motor.  This was allowed to reach
200 degree C as the internal brush temperature where
no insulation is present.  The outside of the brush
would be lower where the pigtails and springs are.

So, for a field coil temp limit, 120 to 140C sounds
good to me.  On the brush, I'd say 180C, hopefully
that would be just peaks on the brush, like at the top
of a hill, and the average would be 40 or 50 lower.

My experience was back in the good old days, so I
don't really know how they design those new motors. 
Hope that helps.

Jeff



--- Mark Eidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The L91-4003 I have has 2 red thermal sensor wires
> coming out of the case.
> The drawing says:  "Thermal Sensor Rating 120C
> Normally Opened".  Does
> anyone know more about and how to use this thermal
> sensor?  If it closes at
> 120C or 248F I guess that would be an over
> temperature warning.  me
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/19/07, Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have an L91-4003 ADC motor. The spec sheet says
> "class H" insulation
> > rated
> > up to 180C/356F degrees. I'm only using a Curtis
> 1221B so I never pull
> > more
> > than 400-ish amps, and I probably cruise at
> 150/200 amps. (I'm waiting on
> > my
> > new ammeter to come in the mail to know for sure.)
> >
> > Questions:
> >
> > 1. What is the max temperature I should not exceed
> with this motor? I'd
> > like
> > a number if possible vs. the "touch test". (I can
> still touch the motor
> > for
> > several seconds after driving before having to let
> go) None of the data on
> > the motor at evparts.com lists a temperature.
> >
> > 2. I'm looking at ordering a temp gauge from
> evparts.com. You're supposed
> > to
> > drill a hole in the motor brush to install the
> sender in. Has anyone done
> > this? Sounds like delicate work. Any tips?
> >
> > 3. I thought earlier threads have said that this
> motor tops out at 5000
> > RPM
> > but this product link:
> >
>
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2114/mt2114thermaltests.PDFsays
> > 6500 RPM.
> >
> > It's getting pretty hot here in Maryland this
> summer and as I drive, I
> > want
> > to make sure I'm not stressing anything.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Rich A.
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join
> the i'm Initiative now.
> > It's free.
>
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
> >
> >
> 




      
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From your link below, - 
scoot down to 

Zero-Carbon Drive to Sacto Anti-Carbon Rally and Back 

There, you'll see links to the ebox... 
which is cool... 

The ebox is fairly cheap, for a millionaire.... 

http://www.acpropulsion.com/ebox/pricing.htm

For the rest of us, I guess we'll convert 1986 mazdas in desperate need of 
paint jobs....

Thanks for the link!
Best Regards - 

Ed Cooley





Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/19/2007 09:50
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu


To
RAV4-EV list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc

Subject
Google Gets It - It's the Plug, Stupid






Google Gets It - It's the Plug, Stupid

http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh No! Line 13 and on of pages 12&13 defining the battery pack
eliminates all home conversions unless you are certified by the battery
manufacturer and the battery and battery manufacturer is approved by the
NHTSA.

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
> Office 303-607-2993 
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Well, then according to the text on page 11 about conversions, the
lesser of 
a)$2000 + ($400/kwh over 2.5kwh)
OR
b) 50% of the battery pack cost 
If your going to get a lead acid pack then b will be less.  The old
credit here in Colorado was better.

Which means for me: rethink batteries! Prices I found are approximate
(and old).
At 96v:
16 Trojan T145 @$180ea = 2880/2 = $1440 credit 23.424kwh
18 US-185HC @ 150ea = 2700/2 = $1350 credit 46.44kwh
18 Optima D31T @ $206ea = 3708 = $1854 credit 16.2kwh

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Now if they will just pass the thing!  Right now they can't agree on
anything. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Beth Silverman
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:24
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact
your senator...

Here is info on the bill about plug-in hybrids and where it is in the
legislative process:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d110:1609:./list/bss/d110SN.lst:
:|TOM:/bss/110search.html|

Here is the actual text of the bill:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827

To find your senator and contact him/her:
http://www.senate.gov/
see "Find Your Senators" in the upper righthand corner Most of them make
it easy to send them an email.  

You can just say "S1617" and they will know what you're talking about.


Beth

************************************************************************
********************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential
information intended 
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you
are not the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
destroy all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of
this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
************************************************************************
********************

********************************************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information 
intended 
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not 
the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy 
all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this 
message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
********************************************************************************************

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I have never worked with Solectria stuff, but did have
>a cap heat problem once with a ACIM drive.  Turned out
>to be caused by a connection problem in the battery
>circuit.  Intermittent open on the source side can
>cause large ripple in the caps.  Just a thought
>regarding your problem.

I was guessing something like that. I rated the replacement
caps as being able to take about four times the ripple
current as the originals. Could it be dead batteries?
Is this something you can check with an AC voltmeter?
That's how I check out my power supplies in other
equipment.

I don't have the car, I'm just repairing the inverter for
someone else. I have two of the larger BRLS-16's and I
thought a pair of those would be about right in a Geo,
not a single BRLS-11.

Didn't the later ones use a single-speed gearbox and their
AC system? Was their AC system any more reliable than the
brushless DC units? I've only met three BLDC setups and
every one of them was blown up when I met them. I'm still
looking for a good glider and battery pack to match my
pair of BLDC's. Once in a while one comes up but I've found
a lot of them have too much rust and will either fail
inspection or not be able to safely haul enough battery
around. The salt (for road de-ice) eats the cars up as well
as the winter ice.

-Dale

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
             Hi John, Rich and All,
                  You both know perfectly well the best
thing is to throw away both the clutch and transmission and
go direct drive to a diff, belt or chain reduction,
preferably with 2 motors series/parallel!
                   Almost all EV's ever produced have not
had a transmission with it's weight, drag, just a single
reduction gear. I think they are onto something! No?

                             Jerry Dycus
                  
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Clutch, Keepin' it.
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 07:59:04 -0700

>Geez folks..welcome to Back yard engineering!!
>
>I spent a few grand years ago to ditch clutcheless EV
>driving..
>
>Your Guys are playing with low power EVs and can deal with
>funky hard to operate vehicles.
>
>Keep the clutch!!!! Then anyone can drive it.
>
>This is so like 1992 for me.
>Yea it works... If you like to drive Franenstien level EV.
>
>Come folks... I shift in milliseconds..just like everybody
>Else with a real car and tranny.
>
>Keep the clutchless EV to those that can't afford to do it
>right in the first place.
>
>Been there done that.. won't go back.
>Got a 4 puck copper plate in Goldie
>And a 8  puck sintered plate in the Fiero.
>
>
>Madman
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did install a thermocouple in a brush on my Ranger pickup conversion and
used a Fluke Model 51 digital temperature meter.  The setup worked well.
Watching the brush temperature taught me a lot about how to drive an EV
without overheating the motor.  If the ADC 9-inch motor were run at high
RPM and less than 300 amps (that's motor current not battery current) the
brush temperature would stay below 350 F which is a conservative limit.
Watching the temperature also tells you when to stop drawing higher
currents.

Brush temperature is a pretty good indication of armature winding and
commutator temperature because the high thermal conductivity of the
copper commutator and windings keeps the brushes, commutator and
armature windings at approximately the same temperature.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:04 AM
Subject: Max motor temperatures and temp sender install


I have an L91-4003 ADC motor. The spec sheet says "class H" insulation rated up to 180C/356F degrees. I'm only using a Curtis 1221B so I never pull more than 400-ish amps, and I probably cruise at 150/200 amps. (I'm waiting on my new ammeter to come in the mail to know for sure.)

Questions:

1. What is the max temperature I should not exceed with this motor? I'd like a number if possible vs. the "touch test". (I can still touch the motor for several seconds after driving before having to let go) None of the data on the motor at evparts.com lists a temperature.

2. I'm looking at ordering a temp gauge from evparts.com. You're supposed to drill a hole in the motor brush to install the sender in. Has anyone done this? Sounds like delicate work. Any tips?

3. I thought earlier threads have said that this motor tops out at 5000 RPM but this product link: http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2114/mt2114thermaltests.PDF says 6500 RPM.

It's getting pretty hot here in Maryland this summer and as I drive, I want to make sure I'm not stressing anything.

Thanks,

Rich A.

_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now. It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMHO, this is a great compromise to the clutch issue.
It includes the springs of the clutch plate, but minimizes
the weight of the rotational mass.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4429/cl3.htm

Regards,
Tom Brannan

--
"It is better to meet a mother bear robbed of her cubs
than to meet some fool busy with a stupid project"
Proverbs 17:12  (TEV)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, that how my thermo sensors that are install on the fields on my GE 
motor by the GE company just above the commentator end of the motor.  They 
work different then the other motors I have.  They are normally open up to 
139C and then close at 140C.  Then as the temperatures cools to 120C they 
open up again.

When use as a warning device, it lights up a Red LED on the dash when it 
reaches 140C.  When the temperature goes below 120C, it then lights up a 
green LED by use of a plug in glass Square D relay.

My sensor circuit has never interface with the motor controller circuit.

I at one time, I ask GE why they are a normally open type.  They said, it a 
normally close sensor normally will have its life shorten by having a 
control current going through it all the time, rather than a open type, that 
the contacts may be only use once or twice in its life time.

Also close sensor contacts may stick close after many years of usage and you 
may not get a indication or shut down of the motor controller.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Max motor temperatures and temp sender install


>
> Hi Mark, Richard,
>
> Class H insulation is 180 degree C.  Meaning at 180C,
> insulation will last 10,000 hours(or half life of
> 10,000).  It depends where the thermal sensor is
> located in the motor.  Cannot be in the armature, that
> is hard to do because it rotates.  So, I'm guessing,
> it is in the field coil.  Now it depends on the motor
> design, but the ones I worked with years ago, would,
> on the one hour temp rise test, have the armature
> reach rated temp first.  So there would be a
> differential between the arm and field coil temps.
> The temp sensor would be selected to that field coil
> temp which related to arm temp limit.  So the
> assumption would be that when your temp sensor trips,
> the hottest part of the motor is at limit.
>
> Having a 120C temp would indicate that you should back
> off or end the trip soon, probably not stop at the
> side of the road and wait for the motor to cool down.
> You might also add forced air cooling if you find the
> temp light coming on often.
>
> As for motor temperature in general, at the end of
> thermal rating tests I used to run, it was not
> uncommon to have the outside of the motor frame at
> 100C.  As for the brushes, we used to install
> thermocouples in the brush by carefully drilling a
> hole in the top of the brush, insulating the TC with
> epoxy and then insterting the TC into the epoxy filled
> hole.  On short time based thermal runs, like 5 or 10
> minutes or shorter, the brush would be the limiting
> temperature for the motor.  This was allowed to reach
> 200 degree C as the internal brush temperature where
> no insulation is present.  The outside of the brush
> would be lower where the pigtails and springs are.
>
> So, for a field coil temp limit, 120 to 140C sounds
> good to me.  On the brush, I'd say 180C, hopefully
> that would be just peaks on the brush, like at the top
> of a hill, and the average would be 40 or 50 lower.
>
> My experience was back in the good old days, so I
> don't really know how they design those new motors.
> Hope that helps.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- Mark Eidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The L91-4003 I have has 2 red thermal sensor wires
> > coming out of the case.
> > The drawing says:  "Thermal Sensor Rating 120C
> > Normally Opened".  Does
> > anyone know more about and how to use this thermal
> > sensor?  If it closes at
> > 120C or 248F I guess that would be an over
> > temperature warning.  me
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/19/07, Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have an L91-4003 ADC motor. The spec sheet says
> > "class H" insulation
> > > rated
> > > up to 180C/356F degrees. I'm only using a Curtis
> > 1221B so I never pull
> > > more
> > > than 400-ish amps, and I probably cruise at
> > 150/200 amps. (I'm waiting on
> > > my
> > > new ammeter to come in the mail to know for sure.)
> > >
> > > Questions:
> > >
> > > 1. What is the max temperature I should not exceed
> > with this motor? I'd
> > > like
> > > a number if possible vs. the "touch test". (I can
> > still touch the motor
> > > for
> > > several seconds after driving before having to let
> > go) None of the data on
> > > the motor at evparts.com lists a temperature.
> > >
> > > 2. I'm looking at ordering a temp gauge from
> > evparts.com. You're supposed
> > > to
> > > drill a hole in the motor brush to install the
> > sender in. Has anyone done
> > > this? Sounds like delicate work. Any tips?
> > >
> > > 3. I thought earlier threads have said that this
> > motor tops out at 5000
> > > RPM
> > > but this product link:
> > >
> >
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2114/mt2114thermaltests.PDFsays
> > > 6500 RPM.
> > >
> > > It's getting pretty hot here in Maryland this
> > summer and as I drive, I
> > > want
> > > to make sure I'm not stressing anything.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Rich A.
> > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join
> > the i'm Initiative now.
> > > It's free.
> >
> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________________________
> You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
> in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
          Hi All,
              I came across this blog and it is pretty good.
Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and EV's
don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!



   
http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.html

                             Jerry Dycus

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all,

I've read Brant's book and am wondering what is out there that is more current to help me decide what components to use. I've seen all the S10 conversions, including Mike Phillip's S10 which is actually local to me, but have determined that I need a combination with a bit more range AND power to get up the hills here in Colorado Springs. I could live with perhaps 60-80 mile range as long as I can get up the hills at a speed around 55 mph. I suspect the big issue would be battery choice. I have no desire to do long distances nor speed races, but just need something a little beyond the basic conversion.

So, what are folks doing to address these basic issues today versus 10 years ago? Any pointers, links, references would be appreciated.

thanks,
john

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Well sure Jerry, there is the giiiiirly way of doing things, and then there is the MANNNNNLY way :-)


From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV are for girls blog
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:12 -0500


          Hi All,
              I came across this blog and it is pretty good.
Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and EV's
don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!




http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.html

                             Jerry Dycus


_________________________________________________________________
Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I emailed my senators the following:
Dear Senator,
Senate Bill S1617 is a great step forward for our independence from
foreign oil and for the environment.  However, I wish to point out that
well over half of the current electric vehicles would not benefit from
the credit. Line 13 and on of pages 12&13 defining the battery pack
would eliminate all conversions (from ice vehicles) unless the installer
of the battery pack is certified by the battery manufacturer and the
battery and battery manufacturer is approved by the NHTSA.  To my
knowledge there are no manufacturers approved nor batteries currently
tested and approved by the NHTSA.

These approved batteries and certified installers must be made available
to the general public so they have incentive to convert their gasoline
burning cars to electric.  I do not see any part of the bill that
defines how a battery manufacturer and installer gets qualified.  I am
afraid the NHTSA will make it impossible for anyone other than the big
auto companies to get qualified.
 
        In summary,  most of the current electric vehicles on the roads
today were converted from gasoline burning vehicles.  These vehicles,
excluding golf carts and Neighborhood electric vehicles (low speed
vehicles), were converted by owners or shops hired by owners.  They use
batteries from one manufacturer, a motor from a different manufacturer,
a controller from another manufacture and a charger from yet another
manufacturer.   There have been several small companies created to make
these motors, controllers and chargers.  Making it too difficult to get
certified for a small business will stifle innovation and competition.

        I feel the bill still needs to be modified to include these
electric car conversions. Please make sure qualification procedures and
rules are fair to small businesses.

Thank You,
Stephen Paschke


Perhaps you can use this to create an email to your senators.  I am sure
some of you could word it better.

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
> Office 303-607-2993 
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:37 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Oh No! Line 13 and on of pages 12&13 defining the battery pack
eliminates all home conversions unless you are certified by the battery
manufacturer and the battery and battery manufacturer is approved by the
NHTSA.

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
> Office 303-607-2993 
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Well, then according to the text on page 11 about conversions, the
lesser of 
a)$2000 + ($400/kwh over 2.5kwh)
OR
b) 50% of the battery pack cost 
If your going to get a lead acid pack then b will be less.  The old
credit here in Colorado was better.

Which means for me: rethink batteries! Prices I found are approximate
(and old).
At 96v:
16 Trojan T145 @$180ea = 2880/2 = $1440 credit 23.424kwh
18 US-185HC @ 150ea = 2700/2 = $1350 credit 46.44kwh
18 Optima D31T @ $206ea = 3708 = $1854 credit 16.2kwh

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:32 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to
contact your senator...

Now if they will just pass the thing!  Right now they can't agree on
anything. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Beth Silverman
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:24
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Plug-in Hybrids/Senate Bill S1617 and if you want to contact
your senator...

Here is info on the bill about plug-in hybrids and where it is in the
legislative process:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d110:1609:./list/bss/d110SN.lst:
:|TOM:/bss/110search.html|

Here is the actual text of the bill:
http://hatch.senate.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=DataPipes.ViewPDF&Id=1827

To find your senator and contact him/her:
http://www.senate.gov/
see "Find Your Senators" in the upper righthand corner Most of them make
it easy to send them an email.  

You can just say "S1617" and they will know what you're talking about.


Beth

************************************************************************
********************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential
information intended 
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you
are not the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
destroy all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of
this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
************************************************************************
********************

************************************************************************
********************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential
information intended 
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you
are not the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
destroy all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of
this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
************************************************************************
********************

********************************************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information 
intended 
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not 
the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy 
all copies.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
are these any good to you?
http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/m57184n_715b.pdf
http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/m57182n_315.pdf

Dan Frederiksen wrote:
maybe a range of 100-400V and around 3-500A

I've seen the simple text book circuits but there is of course more to it. I need to supply the low voltage components from the unknown 100-400v supply
efficiently
I've looked for switching voltage regulators components for that but haven't found any
and don't know how to make it discretely

Dan

Rich Rudman wrote:
then.. memory refresh cycle to BUCK mode.

How low... How much current...?
Want 400 amps of 4 volts or 50 amps of 50 or 20 amps of 120??

I am not sure this effort is worth my time.

You know buck but you can't look up FET and IGBT Buck circuits???
Humm..

Have fun

Madman



----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:12 AM
Subject: Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?


and I know about buck and boost. aim higher.
things of actual use to me would be thermal experience with specific
devices. can they actually do as the specs say. what kind of
heatsink/environment gives what kind of Tc for a given current in a
given transistor.
I'm also looking to know what kind of circuitry can efficiently supply a
low voltage from an unknown 100-400v dc source and that source alone

Rich Rudman wrote:
Got yer power supply topology chart handy???
Look up Buck mode... That's the controller...
Look up Boost mode and Buckboost and Buck, On the fly of the grid's sine
wave for my power stage.

Digi Krime is a  book of many opertunities... you make them as you see
fit.
Ot buys direct as so do I from manufactures Reps for the power Sand, The
small stuff is Miser and Digikrime....

I am not sure if this is fun or torture...

Madman








--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the MANNNNLY way IS to ditch the tranny and just build in enough 
torque to power it through straight to the rear end.  Its also MANNNNLY to need 
traction bars to prevent leaf spring wrap-up under hi-torque application.  


----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:06 am
Subject: RE: EV are for girls blog
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu

> Well sure Jerry, there is the giiiiirly way of doing things, and 
> then there 
> is the MANNNNNLY way :-)
> 
> 
> >From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: EV are for girls blog
> >Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:01:12 -0500
> >
> >
> >           Hi All,
> >               I came across this blog and it is pretty good.
> >Even she knew to chose a light, aero EV glider and EV's
> >don't need a clutch/transmission, John and Madman!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/build-your-own.html
> >
> >                              Jerry Dycus
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative 
> now. 
> It’s free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
> 
> 

--- End Message ---

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