EV Digest 6929

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Boost type controller  - curtis vs. zilla?
        by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Another thought, quarter mile
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Google presses for 100 MPG vehicle
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Wrecks
        by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Motor cooling and temps
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor Question
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Another thought, quarter mile
        by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor Question
        by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Electric transmission computer
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Flexible Stainless Steel interconnects
        by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Flexible Stainless Steel interconnects
        by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: DCDC converter
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Understanding Motors II
        by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Another thought, quarter mile
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor Question
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Understanding Motors II
        by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Understanding Motors II
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Another thought, quarter mile
        by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) charging w/ one battery missing
        by Tony Furr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: Electric transmission computer
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Rolling Resistance - how to measure
        by Colin Hutchison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Siamese 8 Lives Again...Seattle here we come!
        by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Hi Markus,

When reading the archives and other info on the web I find
it several times mentioned that the Zilla controller can
lower my battery amps. (e.g. here http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg07672.html)

I am running a curtis 1221 right now. I wonder if another controller
can do significantly better in reducing battery amps than the Curtis
if I have no problem with the power limitations of the Curtis.
I.e. does the Zilla work differently than the Curtis. It is my understanding that the Curtis is a similar type of controller and
also reduces battery amps. Hence buying a Zilla would not give me
an advantage unless I would step to a higher voltage pack.

Am I right?

Yes.
The Zilla offers separate control of battery versus motor amps, but you're already effectively doing that yourself by watching the ammeter. (right? you don't have the Curtis current limit set for 160A?) They're both known as buck (not boost) controllers, if you'd like to do more searching on them.

Cory Cross

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--- Begin Message --- I'm not sure I accept that since that could be largely offset by having a little more capacity than needed to complete the stretch. indeed the same could be said of batteries and is equally invalid.

so noone has ever tried with a heavy pack?

TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
It's been hashed out several times here on the list.  It has been done
but it's not a faster system than battery powered draggers.  The issue
lies with the discharge curve of a capacitor bank which leaves you
wanting for power at the end of the track.

Great launch, wimpy finish.  Have a look in the archives for more info.

See guys?  I pay attention.  } ; ]

Trot, the attentive, fox...


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--- Begin Message ---
I think there are some options now. Denso makes an electric hermetically
sealed scroll compressor in which the bldc motor rides in the oil
circulated by the refridgerent. Without a rotating shaft seal and being
a scroll compressor it is a lot more efficient than what ICE users are
use to.  This is used in the prius  but off of the boosted  pack voltage
and requires special compressor oil.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- You have to watch out about wrecked vehicles. Once it gets on the title, at least in MO as a salvage car, you will always have the "reconstructed" stigma attached.

Much better to get a good body with bad engine. I don't have to do any body repair on mine because it was in pristine condition. In MO they just re-titled the car as EL and I don't need emissions inspections or any of that nonsense.

In my humble opinion anyway.

Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Wrecks


Thought I should respond to some of the comments about wrecked cars.
I agree, my first choice for an EV is a vehicle with a bad engine or trans. Been there, done that.

I have over the years probably done over 8 vehicles that have been totaled out by insurance companies and have gotten them for a song. I never buy something that is hurt terribly, usually avoid those that have blood or biohazard signs on them ;^p (really happens) and usually wind up dealing with bolt on repairs and my doing an amateur paint job. I avoid frame damage and have only taken on one vehicle with frame damage and it came out fine (had a shop do the frame work-was not too bad.)

That being said, I am finding that doing this bit with a Prius is a little different since the components--all non-electronic, are pricey. BUT they are still easier to find and generally cheaper than a lot of EV parts. And EV shopping has conditioned me for shopping hard and being creative, not stupid when it comes to safety, but creative.

It is easy to take a car that has been in a simple fender bender to a dealer body shop, having to replace bumper, attendant hardware, and repaint and pay over $5,000. And that is without any frame damage. If someone does not want to take that on as a DIY project, so be it, but it is a way to get into a newer glider for not a lot of money, IF you have some rudimentary body working skills and understand what is wrong with the vehicle.

Insurance is high for a reason and the companies do not want to pop for thousands of dollars and then have the client not be happy. That happens a lot. It is simpler to total it out and sell the car for parts and/or rebuilding. Vehicles can be and are rebuilt every day. They are safe if done right, just the way an EV is safe if done right.


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we should try boreing out a fan and pressing in a roller clutch.
(As long as the direction is specified)
This will lock in and spin at motor speed when accelerating and continue
to cool for a bit after you have come to a stop. :-)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip,

First, the easy part. The batteries are likely 4 6-volt golf cart batteries in series for 24 volts, or at least originally made that way.

Second, without seeing the motor and tracing the wires, my thought is that it could be a shunt/sepex motor and reverses the voltage on the field to reverse the motor. If it was series wound, I believe you'd have to have 4 wires to accomplish this.

I have no use for it, but I'll help someone move it if done in the next few days. If you do haul it to the dump, pull everything you can first. Might make a hell of a scooter motor.

Dave


From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor Question
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:35:58 -0400

A few years ago I inherited a lime green pretty cool looking 24-volt 3 wheel Utility Cart with a diamond plate flat bed, but it doesn't run. It's the size of a 3-wheel golf cart, maybe a tad smaller and it was probably made in the far east. The back wheels are actually automotive style 4-bolt wheels. It has hydraulic brakes and looks pretty well made. The person who owned it before used it on his island (he actually owns an island) but it broke so he brought it home and left it sitting out in the rain before I got it so the handlebars and steering column are rusted pretty bad.

It's been in my backyard under a tarp for a few years with some other junk but my neighborhood nazi neighbor complained and the HOA sent a threatening letter and I have 30 days to remove it. I won't say what's going through my mind about my neighbor and the HOA right now. The same neighbor already gave me a hard time about my sailboat (only 15 feet long for crying out loud) so I had to move that to my parents house. What a jerk.

Anyway, I tried to get it moving today so I could at least get it rolling under it's own power to get it into the garage where there is absolutely no room for it with the other EV projects that are in progress . . . but with no luck.

The motor is directly mounted to the front wheel. This is a brush motor and there are three 1/0 cables going to it, white, red, and black. That's what has me confused - the three same size 1/0 wires going to a brushed motor. The motor does actually work. When I hook up a 12 volt battery to the red and black leads on the motor it does run but only in reverse. Even when I switch polarity it still runs in reverse. I tried wiring up the battery to the white wire but just got a spark at the battery terminal and the wheel didn't spin. Weird. I'm obviously missing something here. I really need to troubleshoot from the controller and relays on back first I suppose.

The motor has an extended shaft and there is a cap with a planetary gear that attaches to it but that was all taken apart when I got it. I still have all the pieces. The cap says 24 volts and there is a small insulated wire going to it. I think it is some type of electrical clutch or brake. Maybe an electric prawn of some sort.

The cart does have two rather large relays which don't look anything like an Albright Contactor. One could be a forward relay and the other could be reverse. I noticed the white wire from one relay is going to the motor. And the black and red wires also look like they are coming from the relays to the motor. I haven't really had much time to reverse engineer it. I'm not even sure if the controller works. It looks similar to a Curtis but its all silver colored. The pot box looks like it could be a Curtis though.

The batteries in the cart are flat completely dead. There are 4 batteries that slide out on a tray so it must be a parallel arrangement for the 24 volt system

If anyone has any ideas on how this thing might be set up I'd appreciate it. Having the motor directly mounted to the front wheel is a unique feature but it seems complex with the three wires and this prawn/clutch or brake thing on the end. If I can at least get that figured out it would be a help. I'd hate to haul it away to the dump but may end up doing that if I can't get it running.

What I did today was get rid of all the junk and moved the cart closer to the back of the house and covered it neatly with a tarp and planted grass seed where all the junk was. If they see it neatened up a little that may hold them off.

But if anyone in the DC, MD area is interested in it you can have it for free if you can haul it away. I don't have any pictures of it yet. Still need to get my digital camera software loaded on the computer first.


Chip









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From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Another thought, quarter mile
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:11:14 +0200

I'm not sure I accept that since that could be largely offset by having a little more capacity than needed to complete the stretch. indeed the same could be said of batteries and is equally invalid.

You could say the same about batteries, but it wouldn't be correct. Batteries stay at close to the same voltage until almost discharged. Capacitors lose significant voltage right from the start.

Phil

so noone has ever tried with a heavy pack?

TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
It's been hashed out several times here on the list.  It has been done
but it's not a faster system than battery powered draggers.  The issue
lies with the discharge curve of a capacitor bank which leaves you
wanting for power at the end of the track.

Great launch, wimpy finish.  Have a look in the archives for more info.

See guys?  I pay attention.  } ; ]

Trot, the attentive, fox...



_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for responding Jim!! You're the man!

This does make sense. I'm still trying to absorb the concept in my non-electrical brain though, but I think I understand.

So the cable from one relay must go to one field connection in the motor and the cable from the other relay must be going to the other field connection and the third cable is hooked up to the brush end (armature) and that must be the common.

When one relay is activated just the one field is energized for a particular direction.

I guess I have to get out of my brain that the red is positive and the black is negative. Instead I have to investigate which wire goes to what part of the motor. A guess is that the red must be the common. Because I saw alot or red wire roaming around in the brush end of the motor. But I'll double check that with the meter.

If I'm understanding this correctly it does make sense. But I've never heard of such a motor design like this before. It certainly reduces the need for a reversing contactor and the reason why there are two identical relays next to the controller. Essentially you just need two relays, one for each field. It does sound like a neat concept.

This really helps Jim.

Thanks!

Chip



On Jun 21, 2007, at 10:04 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: June 21, 2007 8:20:28 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor Question


Hey Chip

Lansing makes a three cabled motor where they use two
field leads and one armature lead.  The motor is wound
where the coils have both polarities and use a common
connection at the non-armature brush lead junction.
Anyway you always leave a batt connection on the
armature cable and just switch between the two field
cables for direction (neat idea, crappy motor though,
lol)  Anyway this is the only thng that came to mind.
 didn't read that you had tred all combo's just
swappng out 1 pair.  If you connected the two field
leads together you'd get the spark you got.

I'd suggest putting an ohmmeter to it and see where
you get continuity, that'll tell us something anyway
as to what and how it might need to be hooked up.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

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--- Begin Message ---
I once thought of using an ECM from a late model GM as a driver for an h
bridge to run an AC motor. But only the newest ones are fast enough to
do this.

10000 rpm of a 4 stroke motor with 6 cylinders is 1 pulse per output
every 4 revolutions
10000 rpm on a h-bridge is (depending on pole count) 4 per revolution
plus PWM on complementary

About 16 times more computing power needed. Pulse ramp time is fast
enough, but not sure if it could keep up if the drivers can handle the
duty cycle.

Using it for a DC controller may be possible but injector pulses are
time varying not duty cycle varying. Someone would have to hack the code.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I'm facing a new problem with the inspection to register my car. I was 
faxed the
"Requirements for Electric and Hybrid Powered Vehicles" by a Connecticut DMV 
inspector. These are
the guidelines they will use to inspect my car. They were developed in 1994. In 
there they say bus
bars should not be used.

First, do you think they might change their minds if I show them the 
manufacturers documentation
showing how the BB600s were designed to be used with bubars? They would pack 19 
together in a box,
all connected with solid bus bars.(I have 144 BB600s in my car right now.) 

If I can't change their minds, I'm trying to figure out how to make some 
flexible interconnects.
I've seen 1/8th stainless steel wire rope. Might I be able to combine several 
strands of this
together to make a short (2 inch) flexible interconnect? Crimp a stainless 
connector on each end?

Does anyone have a source for stainless braid? What size would I need to equal 
the electrical
carrying capacity of my currect 1/8th by 1/2 inch copper bus bars? Probably 
want to be able to
briefly handle at least 300 amps once in a while. Thats what I have my Zilla 
limit set to.

Just a thought. Any other suggestions are welcome. 

Dave Cover

PS I may have 144 nickel plated copper bus bars for sale soon.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- A LOT. Stainless steel has a really high resistance relative to copper. Lousy electrical conductor.

Danny

Dave Cover wrote:

Does anyone have a source for stainless braid? What size would I need to equal 
the electrical
carrying capacity of my currect 1/8th by 1/2 inch copper bus bars? Probably 
want to be able to
briefly handle at least 300 amps once in a while. Thats what I have my Zilla 
limit set to.

Just a thought. Any other suggestions are welcome.
Dave Cover

PS I may have 144 nickel plated copper bus bars for sale soon.


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
why not simple buck it? why through a transformer?

Dan

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, it runs on DC. On page 2 directly under "Key Design Points" tells how to use the circuit on DC only.

Note: all isolated switchmode DC-DC converters run on DC and they all use a transformer. Non isolated can use an inductor for the same purpose. Switchmode means the DC is switched on and off (at 66KHz for the DI-124) creating AC for the transformer. Without the AC and without the transformer or inductor it would be an analog regulator which is horribly inefficient. Generally, the higher the frequency the higher the efficiency. That is why the 60Hz line frequency is converted to DC so it can then be "switched" to a higher frequency.

Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 8:09 pm
Subject: Re: DCDC converter


Thanks guys the di124 says AC though and although it says that it converts it to DC first, it then says it feeds it to a transformer which seems odd for DC. do you think it can be used for DC as well? Dan [EMAIL PROTECTED] skrev:
Here are some links to a few products and some elementary application notes that may be helpful: http://www.powerint.com/ http://www.powerint.com/psearch/ http://www.powerint.com/PDFFiles/di124.pdf http://www.national.com/apnotes/BuckSwitchingControllers.html http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-558.pdf http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1149.pdf http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1197.pdf http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1246.pdf http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1146.pdf http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-1197.pdf http://www.national.com/ms/PA/PACKAGE_THERMAL_CHARACTERIZATION.pdf http://www.premiermag.com/pdf/pny.pdf Ken -----Original Message----- From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu Sent: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 4:53 pm Subject: Re: DCDC converter, was Doers vs talkers Yes they might actually work. not sure why I couldn't find those at >
digikey. do you happen to know an online source for them too? > > the minimum input voltage is a bit high but the graph seems to > indicate it might work lower. 140v minimum is a bit high in a one size > fits all controller but maybe if it can work well down to 120. > > The power is not great so will I need a transistor to drive the big > transistors? not sure about gate charge and saturation etc yet > > Dan > > Thomas Ward wrote: >> are these any good to you? >> http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/m57184n_715b.pdf >> http://www.pwrx.com/pwrx/docs/m57182n_315.pdf >> >> Dan Frederiksen wrote: >>> maybe a range of 100-400V and around 3-500A >>> >>> I've seen the simple text book circuits but there is of course more > >> to it. I need to supply the low voltage components from the unknown
100-400v supply >>> efficiently >>> I've looked for switching
voltage regulators components for that but >>> haven't found any >>> and don't know how to make it discretely >>> >>> Dan > >
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If a motor specs reads it can do 30seconds at 300amps and 100amps continous.

Does that mean the most it can ever draw from a battery is 300amps if you connect it straight up to a battery?

God bless




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I actually did the calculations once and remember discovering that you'd need an enormous quantity of capacitors to make it down a quarter mile stretch. I'll try to repeat it quickly.. apologies for any errors :)

Let's say it's a pretty quick drag car with a 100mph exit speed (45m/ s), and weighs 1 (metric) ton.

The kinetic energy alone (ignoring aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance) is E= 1/2mv^2 = 0.5 * 1000 * 45 * 45 = ~1MJ.

A typical supercap might cost $1 and be 3.3F at 2.3V. The energy stored in a capacitor can be calculated as E = CV^2 / 2, so for this example E = 3.3 * 2.3 * 2.3 / 2 = 8.7 J.

Therefore you'd need well over 100,000 of them just to make it down the drag strip! Probably a lot more once you factor in rolling resistance and drag.

$1 for 8.7 joules = ~$400/Wh for supercapacitors, vs lithium typically about $1/Wh or lead acid maybe $0.20/Wh!

A123 lithium cells actually have similar power density to supercaps (~4000W/kg), but 10x the energy density and cost about 300x less! So, you're much better off using batteries.

-Ian

(Caveat: Supercaps are still useful for regen applications though because they can be charged much faster than batteries.)

On 22/06/2007, at 9:11 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:

I'm not sure I accept that since that could be largely offset by having a little more capacity than needed to complete the stretch. indeed the same could be said of batteries and is equally invalid.

so noone has ever tried with a heavy pack?

TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
It's been hashed out several times here on the list. It has been done but it's not a faster system than battery powered draggers. The issue
lies with the discharge curve of a capacitor bank which leaves you
wanting for power at the end of the track.

Great launch, wimpy finish. Have a look in the archives for more info.

See guys?  I pay attention.  } ; ]

Trot, the attentive, fox...




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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chip

Now I'm not saying that your motor's like that, just
an idea.  Lansing does it by using two wires (as one)
which gets like 11 turns from memory.  They then
seperate the wires into 4 connections per coil (now
it's two seperate and opposite wound coils interlaced.
Anyway the way they wound it is you only use half the
coil mass at a time as every other wind is a reverse
polarty wire.  Hope that explaines it.

I doubt you have this exact setup but with just three
wires it's got to be something like this which does
make for easy motor reversing.

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric 
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks for responding Jim!! You're the man!
> 
> This does make sense. I'm still trying to absorb the
> concept in my  
> non-electrical brain though, but I think I
> understand.
> 
> So the cable from one relay must go to one field
> connection in the  
> motor and the cable from the other relay must be
> going to the other  
> field connection and the third cable is hooked up to
> the brush end  
> (armature) and that must be the common.
> 
> When one relay is activated just the one field is
> energized for a  
> particular direction.
> 
> I guess I have to get out of my brain that the red
> is positive and  
> the black is negative. Instead I have to investigate
> which wire goes  
> to what part of the motor. A guess is that the red
> must be the  
> common. Because I saw alot or red wire roaming
> around in the brush  
> end of the motor. But I'll double check that with
> the meter.
> 
> If I'm understanding this correctly it does make
> sense. But I've  
> never heard of such a motor design like this before.
> It certainly  
> reduces the need for a reversing contactor and the
> reason why there  
> are two identical relays next to the controller.
> Essentially you just  
> need two relays, one for each field. It does sound
> like a neat concept.
> 
> This really helps Jim.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Chip
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 21, 2007, at 10:04 PM, Electric Vehicle
> Discussion List wrote:
> 
> > From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: June 21, 2007 8:20:28 PM EDT
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: 24-volt Electric Utility Cart Motor
> Question
> >
> >
> > Hey Chip
> >
> > Lansing makes a three cabled motor where they use
> two
> > field leads and one armature lead.  The motor is
> wound
> > where the coils have both polarities and use a
> common
> > connection at the non-armature brush lead
> junction.
> > Anyway you always leave a batt connection on the
> > armature cable and just switch between the two
> field
> > cables for direction (neat idea, crappy motor
> though,
> > lol)  Anyway this is the only thng that came to
> mind.
> >  didn't read that you had tred all combo's just
> > swappng out 1 pair.  If you connected the two
> field
> > leads together you'd get the spark you got.
> >
> > I'd suggest putting an ohmmeter to it and see
> where
> > you get continuity, that'll tell us something
> anyway
> > as to what and how it might need to be hooked up.
> > Hope this helps
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> 
> 



       
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I wouldn't think so. I read that to mean that it will start to overheat after 30 seconds at 300 amps (or that is what it is rated for). It may draw more amps if allowed by the controller. It will overheat much more quickly at higher amp draws.

Hope this helps...

On Jun 21, 2007, at 11:32 PM, Rob Hogenmiller wrote:

If a motor specs reads it can do 30seconds at 300amps and 100amps continous.

Does that mean the most it can ever draw from a battery is 300amps if you connect it straight up to a battery?

God bless





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----- Original Message ----- From: "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100


You can usually get a discount from a body shop if you do all the prep
work as it's a large part of the job, you can also try and negotiate
cost for paint if they want to place an sticker on your car, you may
also have to have your car at their shop for an open house, just an
idea, or go for the rat rod look and paint the whole car flat black
with rattle cans.

  Hi EVerybody;

Rattle cans? Don't knock them. Years ago I bought a Rabbit Diseasel, for a go-fur car. It was a piece of shit , but RAN well. I had a "protect" job at the RR, On call, IF another engineer dosn't show up for his job, or a rescue job. So had plenty of time to sit around. TV is and WAS a waste of time I started doing a little body work on the Rabbit. Thunk out the dings, bondo, sand things smooth. Time for a color change, it was the infamous" Barf" green that alota Rabbits came through with, back then, a mint green? So I took a panel or door at a time, wet sanded , primed and masked it up and rattle canned away!I got a bunch of them at Auto Zone or Advanced Auto, for 2 bux each, on sale, I bought over a dozen cans of Metalic Forest Green.In several daze I had worked my way around the car and it looked pretty decent. As somebody said, it's the prep, the painting goes easy. Did 2 or 3 coats with a light wet sanding inbetween, I said I had the TIME to be patient, and work at it. Got alot of compliments on my 400 dollar car. I coulda gone crazy and buffed it out, but I was happy with the finish as it dried. Car was a fresh, one color thing now.

So I came in about 25 bux, maybe more? Depends WHERE ya get yur Rattle cans?AND how much TIME ya wanna spend fixin' and sanding?

   Youre miliage may vary<g>!?

  Bob

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100



Brian,

Tony McCormick painted his Lectric Leopard using a roller and
High Gloss Rustoleum for a total cost of about $21.  Check out
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/84, and look at the bottom of
the entry for his description of the work.

Ralph
 Hi EVerybody:

I used Rust Olium to paint my trusty ,Rusty Ford 78 van, again, it is the PREP that gives you the nice finish. I used Leather Brown, almost ,matches UPS Truk brown. Bought a gallon in a tag sale , unused, for 20 bux YEARS ago. Stuff will keep, unlike auto paint. Secret is getting a good Taiwanese Binks sprayer knock off from Harbor Fright, or Northern Tool, if ya like better. God I LOVE these tool places order on line and you HAVE it in a few daze! Set yur compresser to about 50 PSI,get a in line DRYER because you will be spitting water along with yur spray!!! This will piss you off, the first time, so listen up! Auto parts places sell in line moisture filters, go get one! Rust Oleum thins out nice, FILTER it if it isn't a new unopened can, otherwise you will be spitting glop onto your gem like finish, coming up, as you spray away. Resist the urge to lay it on thick, go lightly, pick a dry day, do it inside an open garage! Amazing how much crap there is in outside air!And believe me, it comes from MILES around to settle on YOUR car!BOY is it satisfling when you get it right!!Car/ truck looks GREAT! If you don't have alota time, you can give it an Amtrak {"50/50" paint job; looks good at 50 feet or 50 mph<g>! Just wash it, first! Rust Olium isn't yur auto finish of choice for most people, it is non matellic finish, but what do ya expect for a 23 bux a gal stuff? I have had good luck painting cars, trux, an' trailers with it. Good Stuff. touch ups are easy, too.Or go marine. Marine(Boat) paint is high quality. Epoxy stuff dries to a nice shine! Did a Datsun, 510 years ago, a rich Amtrak like blue, like we used to use on the engine stripes, looked good, got away with a quart, as it thins out nicely.A 510 is a small car, though.Two kotes, looked good, sold right away when I put it in the ad. Gal really liked that flavor blue!

So set yur self up with a decent sprayer and air system, you will thank yourself, when you get the results!Roller? Brush? I guess I have scene it done. Feh! SPRAY it! Guyz at work used to wash/ paint a whole pickup with a 4 inch brush, in one shift! A great 50-50 job, better than it was<g>!

   Seeya

   Bob

Brian Pikkula writes:

Since the majority of our EVs are > 10 years old, the paint on them
isn't like it used to be.  However, I have a hard time justifying
spending $2k for something that will not propel my EV.

I have some time on my hands while saving up for my next big purchase
( a 9" ADC), so I am considering painting the car myself using a
roller.  The kicker is that it costs < $100 to do it (not including
the random orbit polisher).  I'll also be able to bondo the dents,
too.  There are several sites that explain this and show their
results.  Has anyone tried this before?  Results?

http://rollyourcar.com/default.aspx

http://carpainting.wetpaint.com/page/Rollering+Interlux+Brightside+Polyurethane+Paint?t=anon

The original thread that introduced the roll on method to the masses:
(30+ pages)
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2331682&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1%3Cbr%20/%3E

Thanks,
Brian
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960




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Hey Rob

No it doesn't.  Stall that same motor and you're all
but shorting the batteries so to speak and it'll make
huge amps and lots of smoke 8^o

Amps equal heat, so the more amps you draw the hotter
the motor's going to get.  The racers take that same
motor and throw 2000 amps at it, but just for a couple
sec's or less.  The higher the current the shorter the
duration, that is unless you can cool the motor and
wisk away the heat (blower motors running air through
the motor) which extends the duty cycle time.

This is how people get away with using a 7 HP electric
motor from a forklift as an example.  Data tags are
just points of reference.

I kind of like to say that series wound DC motors are
like a good sled dog and will die in the harness
rather than tell you it can't do it, I know I see my
share of dead huskies, LMAO!  What I'm saying is they
will work themselves to death.  Ask to much and well
they start to look like a marshmellow that's been on
the campfire a bit to long, only inside out (it's the
insides that burn)(but don't look to bad from the
outside) hehe.

Anyway as long as you're not the grinch whipping that
poor dog to climb a mountain carrying some big ass
sliegh, you should be okay 8^)  If you go to "You
Tube" and type in electric drag cars, you'll see that
you can whip em a little bit 8^o just be careful to
not over-whip, LMAO.  Anyway just some technical info
for ya 8^)  This is why people use dual motors as they
get twice the whipping in as they now have two dogs to
share the load and can make for a faster ride or a
longer duty cycle.  Hopefully this helps you to
understand a bit more... either that or you think I'm
some freak from Alaska or something (oh hey Mike,
didn't see ya there, hehe)

Thought I'd throw a couple FYI's while I was here 8^)

Be careful not to apply to much voltage on an unloaded
motor as they will over rev and blow their commutators
and or windings.  Use just 12 volts for bench testing.

Never stall a DC motor as it will pit the comm bars
resulting in brush arcing and premature brush wear.

 

Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric



--- Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If a motor specs reads it can do 30seconds at
> 300amps and 100amps continous.
> 
> Does that mean the most it can ever draw from a
> battery is 300amps if you 
> connect it straight up to a battery?
> 
> God bless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 
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Ian,
I think that the Maxwell supercaps Victor uses are 2700F at 5V. Try those number in your calculations instead.

I believe that's what the team at BYU has in their EV1, too.

Bill Dennis

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- A few of the cells in my 144v hawker pack are failing so I have temporarily removed one (actually two because they are in parallel pairs). Will it damage the controller (curtis 1231c) to run the car at 132v? Cant I charge the 132v pack with my Zivan NG charger that says it's rated 144v or will I cook it?
-t

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Using it for a DC controller may be possible but injector pulses are
time varying not duty cycle varying. Someone would have to hack the code.


In most of the GM ECM's I'm familiar with, the hardware is not
designed with motor control - a DC brushed motor, yea, you could
hack into most any of their controllers, but ACIM would be
tough.

The TPU code would need to be changed and many of the GM ECM's
use a masked-ROM TPU without RAM emulation available - and even
the chips are non-standard in many cases. The earlier GM OBD-II
ECM's used a 68332 which could almost be used. Later ones integrated
some analogue channels, but in a nonstandard pinout which I could
never find a datasheet for. Even later, they went with a 68377
which I found a datasheet, but no pinout. And the later ones use
an MPC5xx of some kind. But those are built with chip-on-board so
circuit modding becomes very difficult.

Most automotive ECM's don't require fast and synchronized analogue
to digital conversions (as an ACIM controller would need). One
thing I was toying with was using the torque control part of a
production ECM but broadcasting that to a separate AC controller
via CAN.

Also, the 68332 is marginal at just motor control. Faster DSP's are
usually used for stability of the current feedback loop. If you
tossed much stuff at a 68332 it'd choke real quick. It was a lot
faster than the older HC11 stuff but not lightning-quick.

-Dale

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For constant acceleration you can just use f=ma

So you'd need to calculate the acceleration which you can do in two ways from the information you've supplied.
s=u*t + 1/2*a*t*t
where: s = distance, u = initial speed, v = final speed, t = time and a = acceleration
(in SI units)
0.1miles = 160.9344 m
60mph = 26.8224 m/s
160 = 26.82*7 + 1/2*a*7*7
a = -1.09479m/s/s

or

60mph->55mph in 7 secs
v = u + a*t
or
a = (v-u)/t
a = (24.59-26.82)/7
a = -0.318 m/s/s

then use f=ma to calculate the force

eg. 4000lb car = 1818kg
f = 1818*-0.318
f = -578N

The accelerations are quite different due to the measurements. For example just a 20m (12.5%) increase in measured distance will bring the acceleration for the first calculation very close to the second calculation. So accuracy in timing and/or distance measurement will be critical over such small scales. So using your odometer and a wrist watch is not the best solution.




Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
I didn't have my terminology right. I'm trying to figure out how much total resistance my car is at 55mph.

God bless


----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: Rolling Resistance - how to measure

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
    Hi John and Jim,
    Great fun to read your posts as usual. I'm very excited for the
Greenwood event, and looking forward to an opportunity to meet The
Famous John Wayland. ;)
    It's too bad Jim can't make it, but I certainly can understand
how some people gots to get some work done. Hopefully I'll run into
him at the Invitational, not that I have much to say other than "Dude,
you rock!"
    Yes, I actually do talk like that. Sorry.
    Anyhow Saturday is shaping up pretty cool. I expect I'll be
haunting the neighborhood most  of the day, checking out the
elec-tricks and meeting as many of the SEVA peoples as I can. I might
go look at some gassers too, but oddly enough my enthusiasm for them
has waned somewhat since I've been reading this list.
     I just hope I don't run into my ex...

On 6/21/07, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello to All,
>
> Before getting into my post here, I want to publicly
> thank my friend Jim
> Husted for his heroic effort in rebuilding &
> improving the Siamese 8
> these past weeks!

Hey John

Well you're very welcome 8^)  FWIW you swing the door
back this way EVery chance you get supplying me all
those NEDRA raffle motor cores not to menton fighting
to get my name in car and driver so I guess that's got
to count for something 8^)

I will say you'd better make it last at least a few
races though 8^P

> I
> had the motor in the back of my work service truck
> yesterday in all its
> purple glory, and the 'wows' it got from all those
> who had the pleasure
> of seeing it, told it all. Thank you, Jim!

That's always the fun part, but as you and I both know
that motor s still sitting in the back of your service
truck not to mention it's second trip over the
mountain today!  Now we may be friends but I'm getting
pretty damn tired of working my fingers to the bones
rushing to get you your motors and they either sit in
your garage for two years or in the back of your truck
for days on end!  Hell you even have a forklift to
unload it with, so you got NO excuses, for shame!
LMAO!  Anyway just an observation.

> Marko Mongillo's fun little Baby Blue Datsun
> minitruck has an ADC 9 inch
> with a dash mounted pull-type cable that he uses to
> advance his motor
> timing. Jim Husted built the timing system in that
> motor, and it works
> wonderfully.

You know I need to stop in and see Marko and give the
motor another look see, make sure he ain't cranked the
advancement back up 8^o  Do you know if he EVer got hs
Emeter working?  I'd like to get some data on what the
current is doing when he cranks it way over.

> If
> anyone could come up
> with a mechanical system to accomplish this, it's
> Father Time. Anyone
> who's seen what mechanical marvels this guy can make
> with his hands,
> knows what I'm talking about!

I'd like to get FT back down to the shop, had fun last
time.  I like that FT's got a "little hack" in him
where it's kinda like "hey, this is what we got to
work with let's make it work" kinda skills.  I'd like
to see him get his Bug racer fnished, but then I'd
have to build up that other 13" monster.  Hey, let's
just paint yours FT's color since it would get used
that way! 8^o  Hell you haven't EVen built Purple
Phase yet, and it's a damn antique already, LMAO!!!

> On the other hand, we've had pretty good success
> with the Siamese 8
> without any sort of adjustable advance system.
> Consistent low 12's
> bordering on the 11s aint all that bad.

You know John, it's sure funner than the forklift
motors and what's funny, it's lasted longer than many
a lift motor built around that same time frame!
Pretty sck actually!


> I
> decided to have Jim
> to mods to give another 5 degrees of advance. This
> is a pretty big jump
> in timing that will definitely have a noticeable
> effect. It 'should'
> chase away the fireball monster while at the same
> time, give a
> considerable hp boost at the higher rpms we run at
> the far end of the
> track.

I'm feeling really good about the advancement
actually.  Knowing more from Marko's motor or EVen Jay
Donnaways Gamera9 motor would help us to plot what
this will do better, but hey you go with what you got
8^)

It may take away some from the car's
> outrageous launch...maybe
> not, but we'll soon find out as we are heading back
> to PIR next Friday,
> June 29th, weather permitting. We had planned on
> going tomorrow but the
> weather forecast changed from what was predicted to
> be mid 70's and
> sunshine, to colder and wet. Calls were made and
> travel arrangements
> changed for the Wall Street Journal guy as we now
> look to next weekend
> to try for the 11s again.

As always I'll be mother henning myself sick for you,
Okay fine, for my motor 8^P

>
> I've been pretty focused the past couple of years in
> the way I've run
> our racing strategy. I don't make multiple changes,
> and instead, try to
> do one change at a time.

I'm doing the same thing on motors.  Make to many
changes and you lose data.  I still remember Rich
Rudmans telling me "You don't all out attack a record
you sneak up on it"  Anyway just something that stuck
and which I plot my course on.

I've got to keep in mind that the BIG EVent,
> the Wayland
> Invitational III, is  less than a month away, and we
> need to keep the
> car running and in good shape for that.

Yeah you better!

>
> The July races will be very exciting. Will Bill and
> his devoted team
> become the first EVers to run in the 7s in the 1/4
> mile? Will White
> Zombie lightened from 2580 lbs. down to under 1900
> lbs., fitted with
> taller 3:70 gears, wheelie bars, and an A123 lithium
> pack outputting
> 1400+ amps, run low 11s - high 10s?

Ohh God the ulcers 8^o

>
> Tonight, after I return from yet another 320 mile
> round trip to Central
> Oregon and back (7 trips in less than 4 weeks now),
> Tim Brehm and I will
> meet up at my house at 6:00 pm or so to re-install
> the Siamese 8 in
> White Zombie.

Guess that didn't happen huh?  Cart my motor across
the freaking state, twice! 8^p

Then, after a quick spin around the
> neighborhood and a
> recharge to make sure all is well again, the car
> gets loaded up on the
> trailer behind Tim's diesel Dodge. Tomorrow, Friday,
> I get to have a fun
> 85+ mpg run to Seattle in my Honda Insight with its
> hi pro sound system
> while Tim will leave later in the early evening to
> bring the car up.
> We've meet up with the SEVA gang early Saturday
> morning to be part of
> the 2007 'Gasless on Greenwood' car show where
> 15,000 car fans will clog
> Greenwood Avenue to see a huge array of hotrods and
> of course, electric
> cars!

John shot me an invite to shoot up there this weekend
but I have no babysitter options and have to pass on
the fun 8^(  Besides I'm behind and really should work
anyway, Freaking motor guys never get to play any
reigndeer games! 8^(  You know, now that I think about
it, I bet that wasn't EVen Otmar that came over that
weekend but just some guy in a lizard suit needing a
ride, 8^o  LMAO!

As always, best of luck John!  Go break something,
just not the motor okay?  PLease!

Had fun

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


      
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