EV Digest 6939
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
by Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Milestones: Carbon fiber and blogs
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Batteries for the Newbie!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Small guage wires on ADC motor, temp sensor?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
5) Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Make it
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV Scooter
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) DVD & your project
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Make it
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 55mph, an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DVD & your project
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV Scooter
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 55mph
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Make it
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 55mph
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) hey can anyone help me with batteries and construction
by "gulabrao ingle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As I understand although GRP is in general initially much stronger than
carbon fibre the fatigue performance of GRP is poor, so realistically
the carbon fibre is stronger.
Having said that all the carbon fibre I have used has been
unidirectional and its very hard to work with, so unless the work is
designed and carried by someone experienced in using carbon fibres the
GRP may actually end up stronger even after accounting for loss of
strength due to fatigue. I guess this the same as what you are saying Jerry?
jerryd wrote:
A good layup person with a putty spreader can make a
FG layup at less weight, more strength than a bad layup of
CF. As you do more you will see how.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carbon fiber is rarely used by itself, usually it is used in conjunction
with kevlar.
These are the perview mostly of high end race cars and aircraft because,
with special techniques, they allow getting that last 10% -20% weight
reduction for the strength.
some trivia
Carbon fiber is very stiff and very brittle, kevlar(arimid fiber) is
very tough but flexible. The two can complement each other.
Carbon fiber cannot touch aluminum. It starts a galvanic action
corroding away the aluminum, regular S-glass is used to isolate.
Carbon fiber and kevlar are hard to work with compared to glass and are
usually used with pre-preg(Pre-impregnated cloth with controlled amount
of gelled resin)
Thermal expansion of CF can become an issue
The technique used to make a race car tube is:
layup in mold the outer skin, many layers at different angles.
Consolidate and cure(put a vacuum bag on it and put it in an autoclave)
autoclave: oven under 140psi nitrogen, think pressurecooker,
nitrogen is because O2 at temp pressure with materials = explosive
oxidation!
Lay in a layer of neat resin(resin gel sheet without any fiber)
Lay in Aluminum or Nomex Honeycomb and mounting blocks. Short
Consolidate and cure.
This use of neat resin and pre-pregs is how they avoid filling
the honeycomb with resin while still getting full bonding.
Lay in Inner skin of multiple layers at different angles and throw
it back in the autoclave again.
Through this they get the optimal resin to fiber ratio for minimal weight.
We don't need that. I want to try makeing a car body/chassis glider in a
modified SCRIMP process to get a similar effect without the super high
cost and long cycle time of a race car body construction. SCRIMP is a
way of pulling a vacuum thru a bleeder layer which pulls the resin thru
the composite and around the core.
I think we can make a body that is light and strong with a natural
insulation value. It would have a replaceable front clip and "tailgate".
The cure time in production can be 10 min. (SCRIMP mixes catalyst on
demand). Since repairing a chassis/body is out of the question
replaceing is the only option if a traffic accident effects the main
body. I really think we can achieve a higher level of crash safety with
composites since we can re-direct the forces better than welded sheet metal.
While I have done a fair amount of research, and touring of facilities,
I haven't got in there and played with materials (did some prepreg in my
oven LOL). Jerry is da man on composites and when I get this darn garage
cleaned out and start on this project I will be asking the expert a lot
more questions!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joseph,
If you decide Gen.5 Civic, I've got lots of good
stuff on the DVD (below) and website as well.
Haven't done Zilla and 9". You'd want to do the del
Sol front of vehicle mounting configuration, with the
sedan or hatch batt. mounting in the rear.
I do 72 mph; can get to 60 in about 15; 0-30 is faster
than stock, 40-60 a bit pokier, so it evens out.
If the 30-40 is all at 65, I'd be concerned about cold
winters, wind, and hills. If it's more like 55, it's
hugely do-able in this configuration, esp. w/ batt.
heaters.
Best to you,
--- Joseph Tahbaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I am looking for a battery in my hypothetical future
> EV conversion. The conversion car would probably be
> a Civic or a CRX with 144 volts, a Zilla 1K
> controller, and an ADC 9'' motor. I'd like to be
> able to go on the highway without risking my life,
> so a 0-60 time of 15 seconds or less would be
> great.Range, fortunately, isn't much of any issue;
> 30-40 miles at 80% DOD is enough. I'm not rich
> though, so AGM batteries is out the window. I think
> the US-8VGC from US Battery might be good. The
> Peukert's Exponent is "around 1.2" Would recommend
> this battery for my application? Do you think this
> battery would meet my 0-60 time? If not, why, and
> what other batteries would you recommend? Battery
> life is a big concern.
>
_________________________________________________________________
> With Windows Live Hotmail, you can personalize your
> inbox with your favorite color.
>
www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/personalize.html?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_addcolor_0607
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
___________________________________________________________________________________
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi De,
Temperature sensor wires.
Just a temperature switch.
You can connect them up to a warning light if you want.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> In the process of working on the vacuum pump, and removing the
> no-longer-functional heater, my husband noticed 2 red small guage
> wires coming from the motor ( which is an 8" ADC series wound.) He
> thinks the wires were touching, but not really connected well. When
> he pulled on the heater wiring they came apart. We're wondering what
> these wires are for, and whether they should be connected back.
>
> As best as I can figure, they are temperature sensor wires - is this
> correct? If so, then obviously if they were connected together they
> weren't doing much good. Should I worry about hooking this up? I
> live in NC, the hottest I would be driving in is 95 degrees (assuming
> I can take that without AC). On my 30 minute drive home (when it's
> hottest) I have one hill, takes me about a minute to go up it, and I
> can generally keep it to 200-250A going up the hill without getting
> run off the road.
>
> Thanks for any advice - De
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was considering doing a similar state change heater. I was thinking of
making a steel box full of tin (or solder), with a heating element in it.
Put it in a high temp insulated box. Plug in the heating element while
parked until the tin melts. Then blow air across it for heat. I'm not sure
if 50 lbs of tin going through a liquid to solid state change can supply
more energy than an additional 50 lbs of battery though.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
I use the same type of setup in my Renault LeCar
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727 for the second summer now.
There is a chest freezer in the garage located next to the passenger door
of
the car. It holds 18 HDPE jugs, each containing 10 lb of ice.
http://tinyurl.com/mpfc7 I load 9 of these into the ice box in the car
(there is a small air gap between each jug), and then leave the garage
with
the 12VDC 14 inch radiator fan that is bolted to the side of the box
blowing
air towards the driver's seat. The fan has a 10 amp PWM speed control to
adjust the air delivery. The 90 lb of ice cools the car well for up to 4
hours. I use it daily in July and August and into September. It reduces
the
interior temp by
15 degrees and removes excess humidity. It stays very comfortable.
The ice box has a mesh side to let air blow through and solid bottom to
collect condensation with a drain. http://tinyurl.com/pfr68 #EF6421
On return to the garage, the 9 melted jugs are returned to the freezer,
they
freeze overnight. The load or unload of jugs takes just 2 minutes.
One advantage of ice is that you can leave the fan blowing while in a
store
and keep the car cool for groceries or leaving pets inside.
I remove the ice box from the car in the fall and reinstall the little
heater that was there for winter use.
I got the idea from some very small units http://tinyurl.com/jdmed that
use
crushed ice and blow air over it or use cold water for a transfer medium
to a fan blowing over a wick. I chose the
air transfer to the jugs and a big radiator fan because I knew it needed
at
least 80 lb ice to deliver the cooling required and good air flow to
transfer the heat, and didn't want to handle all that melted water and ice
cubes, too difficult and expensive. The narrow jugs work fine and contain
the water, reused easily. I have 18 jugs instead of 9 so that if I use the
car in the daytime, recharge it and then again at night, I will have fresh
ice each time.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 4:03 PM
Subject: Was: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
I'm cooling the inside of my car, with a cooler packed
with BLUEICE packs. It has a squirrel cage fan
mounted on the bottom side of the cooler, plugs into
the cigarette lighter or the solar panel on the dash
of the car. The air is pulled in from a small hole in
the top of the cooler, thru the various BlueICE packs,
and out the bottom side. This has kept the car
comfortable in Texas/Oklahoma weather so far. Cost
less than $20 bucks to build, it is small enough to
sit in the passenger seat of the car and blow air over
to the driver (ME). I have frozen packs at work, and
home, and just switch them out as needed during
commutes from work and home.
--- GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My ideas invention cooling tube design which uses
> the flowing air over
> a vehicle to power a cooling tube whic cools the
> inside of a car.
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about
> hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
> images.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gee I would have thought that Imagination was the key . You have to dream a
dream and then make it real... It cant be done because nobody have one it..
This is your song?
Sounds like the world would still be flat if that was the case.. Only the
rich and those who study at the university are cable of doing any thing
hunn..
Nessesity is the mother of invention.. Which would go to reason that if a
cheaper control; Can be made it will be by somebody that don't have one yet.
Relax my friend and dream a little
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 06/24/07 02:42:02
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
Some things have change a lot in 100 years. Going 15 miles an hour was fast
In 1907. When you increase the speed to today's standards it requires much
Higher Ah rate from the batteries. This is not a fair comparison getting
there
Faster is not done with the same amount of energy.
If it was inexpensive to make the controller and could be done for what you
Feel is a fair price someone would have done it.
As pointed out below it is always more expensive to make anything in units
Of one.
Don Blazer
Which is what I am doing asking questions.. How ever .. The way I see it ..
Very little has changed in the E V area if the first car made 100 years ago
Could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge ,, And I am not thinking better .. I
Am thinking cheaper.. Which is better to me. We will see maybe I will have
Nothing .. But it sure don't sound like shit to me .. A switch that turns on
And off for 700 bucks..
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: damon henry
Date: 06/23/07 21:39:04
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Make it
Just be aware that there have been tens of thousands of people using their
Imaginations for over 100 years when it comes to a lot of the technology
That you will be dealing with. There is a much likelier chance you will
Re-dream up someones old bad idea than come up with something spectacularly
New. Electric motors are a very mature technology. Usually when dealing
With a mature technology like this the best approach is to look at what
Others have done before you and either make a minor improvement or adapt a
Certain known approach to your special requirements.
Damon
>From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Make it
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:54:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>
>
>
>Thank you very much.. That is the information that I needed to continue my
>search..
>
>Imagination is the key to success not a trip down the same road everybody
>else has took.
>
>Mitchell
>
>
>
>From: Peter VanDerWal
>Date: 06/23/07 19:55:21
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Make it
>
> >
> > Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency
>that
> > varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>
>That is incorrect. Some controllers vary the frequency, but that is to
>Control other issues, NOT the speed.
>The speed is controlled by changing the pulse width (Hence the term PWM:
>Pulse Width Modulation)
>Basically it changes the relationship between how long the switch is on vs
>Off. If it's on for 50% of the time and off for 50%, you get 50% of the
>Speed. On for 25%, off for 75%, 25% speed. However, the frequency
>Remains the same.
>
> >
> > I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>
>That is easy to say when you don't have a clue what is inside the box.
>The biggest part of the cost is the power stage. This uses expensive
>Chunks of silicon. Not only that, but there are ofetn 20 or more chunks
>All connected in parallel to share the load. The really expensive
>Controllers use matched silicon (usually matched by hand) so that they
>Share the load evenly.
>Then they need something called low ESR capacitors, lots of them. These
>Are also very expensive.
>Then you have to spend a lot of time and blow up a lot of silicon refining
>Your design, because at these power levels LOCATION of the parts becomes
>Critical, as does the exact method they are connected together and to the
>Circuit card. So part of the cost of the controllers is recovering the
>Costs of designing it.
>
>Early on I figured it would be simple and cheap to build my own
>Controller. I discovered that when buying the parts at retail costs
>(instead of bulk discounts) it cost just as much to buy the parts as it
>Did to buy the controller. Then you have to go through the whole process
>Of blowing up your own silicon figuring out how to set everything up, so
>Now you have to buy MORE parts and it ends up costing you MORE than buying
>A controller.
>
> >
> > The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average controllers
> > on
> > and off frequency change to and from.
> > In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
> >
>
>As I said that is the wrong question. However, most pick a relatively
>High frequency (say 15khz) because the pulses make the coils in the motor
>Vibrate, just like a big speaker. If you pick a low frequency, then you
>Can actually hear the coils vibrate, it makes a whistling or squealing
>Sound. If you pick to high a frequency then you end up with extra
>Switching losses (the energy you loose when the silicon turns from off to
>On, or vice versa)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph is correct. The proper way to solder is to use the soldering iron
to heat the metal parts (leads, ckt card, etc) and then melt the solder on
to the hot part.
Melting the solder onto the soldering iron is quicker, but a bad idea for
a couple reasons:
1) Solder actually melts the metal it comes in contact with and forms an
alloy. If you apply the solder to the iron, it will melt the tip of the
iron a little bit at a time and eventually wear it away.
2) Melting the solder on the iron instead of the join often means that the
joint is not hot enough to melt the solder. This means that the joint
isn't hot enough to melt the solder, in other words the solder does NOT
end up forming an alloy with the metal in the connection and you end up
with a cold solder joint.
> Joseph Tahbaz wrote:
>> When I soldered I had the solderer actually touch the solder.
>> I later found out I wasn't supposed to do this, after I
>> finished soldering...
>
> I am wondering what you used to solder with...
> My soldering iron surely needs to be in direct contact with
> the solder spot, else the metal won't melt.
> This is true whether you have a 15W iron for small components
> and precise work or a 120W iron to "solder a nail to a train".
> Reason for the contact requirement is the temperature of the
> iron is just a bit higher than the melting temp of solder.
> Now, if you are using a flame to solder, like plumbers do,
> then it becomes a different story. But plumbers need to heat
> a large section of waterpipe to allow solder to flow well into
> a joint... Not anywhere precise type of solder work and you
> better not use a flame to solder electronics or thin wires,
> as you will destroy the parts in the process.
>
>> Should I solder the connections all over again and do it
>> the right way, or it doesn't really matter that much?
>
> If the connections are tight and solder flowed well between
> the wires, then there is no reason to redo them.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well if you are going to use a state change media for heating, why not use
a bunch of those reusable heating packs. The kind with the clear fluid
inside and a metal disk. You bend the disk to crack the ozidation and it
starts a catalytic reaction that turns the liquid into a crystaline solid.
You later boil the solid to reverse the process and it's ready to go again.
This has the advantage that you can store it for months or years before
using it, rather than having to use it imediately.
They also get VERY hot, too hot to touch at first. A couple of these
squashed in between some heatsinks should give off a fairly decent ammount
of heat.
> I was considering doing a similar state change heater. I was thinking of
> making a steel box full of tin (or solder), with a heating element in it.
> Put it in a high temp insulated box. Plug in the heating element while
> parked until the tin melts. Then blow air across it for heat. I'm not
> sure
> if 50 lbs of tin going through a liquid to solid state change can supply
> more energy than an additional 50 lbs of battery though.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
>
>
>>I use the same type of setup in my Renault LeCar
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727 for the second summer now.
>>
>> There is a chest freezer in the garage located next to the passenger
>> door
>> of
>> the car. It holds 18 HDPE jugs, each containing 10 lb of ice.
>> http://tinyurl.com/mpfc7 I load 9 of these into the ice box in the car
>> (there is a small air gap between each jug), and then leave the garage
>> with
>> the 12VDC 14 inch radiator fan that is bolted to the side of the box
>> blowing
>> air towards the driver's seat. The fan has a 10 amp PWM speed control to
>> adjust the air delivery. The 90 lb of ice cools the car well for up to 4
>> hours. I use it daily in July and August and into September. It reduces
>> the
>> interior temp by
>> 15 degrees and removes excess humidity. It stays very comfortable.
>>
>> The ice box has a mesh side to let air blow through and solid bottom to
>> collect condensation with a drain. http://tinyurl.com/pfr68 #EF6421
>>
>> On return to the garage, the 9 melted jugs are returned to the freezer,
>> they
>> freeze overnight. The load or unload of jugs takes just 2 minutes.
>>
>> One advantage of ice is that you can leave the fan blowing while in a
>> store
>> and keep the car cool for groceries or leaving pets inside.
>>
>> I remove the ice box from the car in the fall and reinstall the little
>> heater that was there for winter use.
>>
>> I got the idea from some very small units http://tinyurl.com/jdmed that
>> use
>> crushed ice and blow air over it or use cold water for a transfer medium
>> to a fan blowing over a wick. I chose the
>> air transfer to the jugs and a big radiator fan because I knew it needed
>> at
>> least 80 lb ice to deliver the cooling required and good air flow to
>> transfer the heat, and didn't want to handle all that melted water and
>> ice
>> cubes, too difficult and expensive. The narrow jugs work fine and
>> contain
>> the water, reused easily. I have 18 jugs instead of 9 so that if I use
>> the
>> car in the daytime, recharge it and then again at night, I will have
>> fresh
>> ice each time.
>> JLC
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 4:03 PM
>> Subject: Was: Invention to cool the inside of a car.
>>
>>
>>> I'm cooling the inside of my car, with a cooler packed
>>> with BLUEICE packs. It has a squirrel cage fan
>>> mounted on the bottom side of the cooler, plugs into
>>> the cigarette lighter or the solar panel on the dash
>>> of the car. The air is pulled in from a small hole in
>>> the top of the cooler, thru the various BlueICE packs,
>>> and out the bottom side. This has kept the car
>>> comfortable in Texas/Oklahoma weather so far. Cost
>>> less than $20 bucks to build, it is small enough to
>>> sit in the passenger seat of the car and blow air over
>>> to the driver (ME). I have frozen packs at work, and
>>> home, and just switch them out as needed during
>>> commutes from work and home.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>> > My ideas invention cooling tube design which uses
>>> > the flowing air over
>>> > a vehicle to power a cooling tube whic cools the
>>> > inside of a car.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about
>>> > hurricanes, globalwarming
>>> > and the melting poles.
>>> >
>>> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
>>> > images.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
When you get a chance, why don't you just remit
1/2 of the price of the DVD, as you've helped me sell
some gear over the EVtradingpost?
You can paypal [EMAIL PROTECTED], or snail mail to 1137
NW Morgan Lane, Grants Pass, OR 97526.
Appreciatively,
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I have been kicking around the idea of building
> another EV. My Civic
> conversion is okay as a daily commuter, but in
> hindsight I have come
> to realize that simple flooded lead-acid batteries
> are far more cost
> effective and forgiving than AGMs and gel-cells.
> Also, my situation
> has changed a bit and a four seater would be a
> better match to my
> needs than a two seater. I have been trying to put
> together a
> profile of my actual needs and get some idea of what
> kind of vehicle
> would make a suitable donor. Here are my specs for
> the resulting EV:
>
> 4 passenger (driver plus 3), ideally giving each
> their own door,
> though I guess an extended cab pickup with jump
> seats might work
> since the distances would be fairly short.
>
> 30-40 mile useable range at city street speeds
> without excessively
> risking battery life.
>
> Top speed of at least 70 mph for occasional free way
> travel.
>
> Acceleration at least equal to a fully loaded mini
> van.
>
> Able to be air conditioned and heated as needed for
> comfort.
>
> New enough to have airbags and side impact beams.
>
> So, any donor suggestions? I don't have the budget
> for exotic
> lightweight batteries, so I am thinking this is
> going to take
> something pretty capable to carry 800 odd pounds of
> passengers plus
> 800 to 1200 pounds of batteries without completely
> burying the
> GVW. Am I asking for too much?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate,
> not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Imagination is the key for discovering new ideas.
Making a cheaper controller is NOT a new idea. If it was practical to
make a controller that was significantly cheaper than existing ones, then
the chinese would be flooding the market with cheap controllers.
Hell, they are quite capable of ripping off existing designs and copying
them. Their labor costs are cheaper, so they should be able to save a
bundle right? But they aren't, so ask yourself, "Why not?"
Because the main reason the controllers are so expensive is because they
use expensive components.
If you can discover a way to build them cheaper, awsome let us know.
But if you are going to come here with the attitude that you are going to
solve this because you have more immagination than we do (or the rest of
the world), please save the attitude until you have a working prototype to
display.
Asking questions is great, so is learning from others. Just leave the
attitude at home please.
> Gee I would have thought that Imagination was the key . You have to dream
> a
> dream and then make it real... It cant be done because nobody have one
> it..
> This is your song?
>
> Sounds like the world would still be flat if that was the case.. Only the
> rich and those who study at the university are cable of doing any thing
> hunn..
>
> Nessesity is the mother of invention.. Which would go to reason that if a
> cheaper control; Can be made it will be by somebody that don't have one
> yet.
>
> Relax my friend and dream a little
>
> Mitchell
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: 06/24/07 02:42:02
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make it
>
> Some things have change a lot in 100 years. Going 15 miles an hour was
> fast
> In 1907. When you increase the speed to today's standards it requires much
> Higher Ah rate from the batteries. This is not a fair comparison getting
> there
> Faster is not done with the same amount of energy.
>
> If it was inexpensive to make the controller and could be done for what
> you
> Feel is a fair price someone would have done it.
>
> As pointed out below it is always more expensive to make anything in units
> Of one.
>
> Don Blazer
>
>
>
> Which is what I am doing asking questions.. How ever .. The way I see it
> ..
> Very little has changed in the E V area if the first car made 100 years
> ago
> Could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge ,, And I am not thinking better .. I
> Am thinking cheaper.. Which is better to me. We will see maybe I will have
> Nothing .. But it sure don't sound like shit to me .. A switch that turns
> on
>
> And off for 700 bucks..
>
> Mitchell
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: damon henry
> Date: 06/23/07 21:39:04
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Make it
>
> Just be aware that there have been tens of thousands of people using their
> Imaginations for over 100 years when it comes to a lot of the technology
> That you will be dealing with. There is a much likelier chance you will
> Re-dream up someones old bad idea than come up with something
> spectacularly
> New. Electric motors are a very mature technology. Usually when dealing
> With a mature technology like this the best approach is to look at what
> Others have done before you and either make a minor improvement or adapt a
> Certain known approach to your special requirements.
>
> Damon
>
>
>>From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Make it
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 20:54:27 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
>>
>>
>>
>>Thank you very much.. That is the information that I needed to continue
>> my
>>search..
>>
>>Imagination is the key to success not a trip down the same road everybody
>>else has took.
>>
>>Mitchell
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Peter VanDerWal
>>Date: 06/23/07 19:55:21
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: Make it
>>
>> >
>> > Seeing how a controller is only a on off switch that has a frequency
>>that
>> > varries .. The faster it goes the faster you go ..
>>
>>That is incorrect. Some controllers vary the frequency, but that is to
>>Control other issues, NOT the speed.
>>The speed is controlled by changing the pulse width (Hence the term PWM:
>>Pulse Width Modulation)
>>Basically it changes the relationship between how long the switch is on
>> vs
>>Off. If it's on for 50% of the time and off for 50%, you get 50% of the
>>Speed. On for 25%, off for 75%, 25% speed. However, the frequency
>>Remains the same.
>>
>> >
>> > I am sure this can be reproduced without spending 700 bucks..
>>
>>That is easy to say when you don't have a clue what is inside the box.
>>The biggest part of the cost is the power stage. This uses expensive
>>Chunks of silicon. Not only that, but there are ofetn 20 or more chunks
>>All connected in parallel to share the load. The really expensive
>>Controllers use matched silicon (usually matched by hand) so that they
>>Share the load evenly.
>>Then they need something called low ESR capacitors, lots of them. These
>>Are also very expensive.
>>Then you have to spend a lot of time and blow up a lot of silicon
>> refining
>>Your design, because at these power levels LOCATION of the parts becomes
>>Critical, as does the exact method they are connected together and to the
>>Circuit card. So part of the cost of the controllers is recovering the
>>Costs of designing it.
>>
>>Early on I figured it would be simple and cheap to build my own
>>Controller. I discovered that when buying the parts at retail costs
>>(instead of bulk discounts) it cost just as much to buy the parts as it
>>Did to buy the controller. Then you have to go through the whole process
>>Of blowing up your own silicon figuring out how to set everything up, so
>>Now you have to buy MORE parts and it ends up costing you MORE than
>> buying
>>A controller.
>>
>> >
>> > The question I need to know is at what rate dose the average
>> controllers
>
>
>> > on
>> > and off frequency change to and from.
>> > In time sec .and How many time in a sec . To archive O to max speed
>> >
>>
>>As I said that is the wrong question. However, most pick a relatively
>>High frequency (say 15khz) because the pulses make the coils in the motor
>>Vibrate, just like a big speaker. If you pick a low frequency, then you
>>Can actually hear the coils vibrate, it makes a whistling or squealing
>>Sound. If you pick to high a frequency then you end up with extra
>>Switching losses (the energy you loose when the silicon turns from off to
>>On, or vice versa)
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: 55mph
> 4500 pound S-10 at 55 miles per hour on flat ground 50 amps at 380
volts.
>
> Don Blazer
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2007 12:11:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Sorry, but I can only give you the real world-- for a
> 3300 lb. EV, depending on hills, headwind, etc, it's
> between 200-300 amps.
> Don't know if that helps,
>
> --- Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> What is the mathematical formula to determine how
>> much HP I will need to
>> maintain 55mph.
>> Hi EVerybody;
Who the hell knows? :ike how many miles per gal you get with Prei? It
sureashell varies. As I fine toon my 89 Jetta I'm finding I can go along ,
in a 3400 lb car, at 50-55 at about 100-150 amps, can keep it below 150 for
most running EXCEPT starting off, of course. On the two laners I do 75 -100
amps for a reasonable speed. 40-45mph. As I weed out my bum badd-eries I'm
gettuing better and better perfoormance! I went to New Haven AND back on one
charge and BARELY made it home! A 50 mile RT. Had one Trojan Teakettle! Boy!
Did I EVer! Boiling, frothing at the mouth! Hmmm? Loosing power somewhere? I
wanted to THRASH the bummers out! That was the worst of 3 badd-eries. Got
RID of them and WOW! What a difference! Went to Old Saybrook ON the
Turnpike, at 55-60, Yesah! I COULD go faster but was saving the juice as I
wanted to be sure I was gunna get hoime after a 40 plus mile RT. Same old
hills and dales as ever. Gees! In Table top flat AZ or Fla I would be
getting WONDERFUL range! When I take an EV over to Long Island, ALSO table
top flat, I used to get awsome range, too! Come on Wrong Island! YOU should
be an EV hotbed of activity?!! I grew up there and know the turf well. Ideal
place. Granted it is a too expensive place to live for common folks, like
us, nowadaze!
EV happyness is cruising at 55-60 mph, 115 volts maybe 100 amps, I
think Jettas have a good as Rabbits CD? IF I had a belly full of T 145's I'd
have some SERIOUS Range? I mean NEW ones.
Who said thst we haven't improved over 40 mile range EV's of the
Titanic Era? HORSE EXHAUST! You couldn't drive a Baker, Detroit, Rauch
Lange. Yupp Heats, Edison Whatever, in todaze traffic! You would be HIT or
pulled over in short order for blocking traffic. Turnpike? You Kidding?!
Becides with the tiller steering you wouldn't WANT to keep up with traffic!
Good thing! The oldies are good NEV's that is all. People grumble about Ford
not doing much better miliage wise, today, than with the model "T", with the
new offerings? Yeah! But you sure wouldn't want to commute in a Model
"T"!Top speed 40-45, IF you had a good one!And the two wheel mechanical
brakes? Yee Ha!
Point here; We have come along way, baby! The Zombie woulda been
considered a Modern Marvel, in 1912! Fastest car in the World! IF ya wanna
compare todaze EV's with the Olde Offerings? EVen my Jetta would have been a
standout EV to go see the Titanic come in, or the Lusitania? Time machine
with a cargo hold? YEAH! THAT would be fun! Go drive around NYC, 1910, in
one of todaze EV offerings? I could load up on NEW, old78 rpm records, my
other passion! Contacter EV controllers, too<g>!
Off to the car show today.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob I hope that was supposed to be off list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What you need is flow. If the solder flows around the metal parts you did
your job. With solder less is more. Heat transfer is the soldering game.
However if you overheat a component that is bad. Inches of wire will
insulate components. NGV are off topic here. However if you want a longer
range vehicle than current available electrics it is one direction to go as
is vegetable oil powered cars. There are plenty of sites you can google to
find out. Lawrence Rhodes.....
I've been taking the parts on my electric scooter, and puttign them on my
bike. I had to solder in order to remove most of the wires.
When I soldered I had the solderer actually touch the solder. I later found
out I wasn't supposed to do this, after I finished soldering...
Should I solder the connections all over again and do it the right way, or
it doesn't really matter that much?
By the way, I have a question about NGV (natural gas vehicles) that I can't
find the answer for, can I ask on here?
_________________________________________________________________
Play free games, earn tickets, get cool prizes! Join Live Search Club.
http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_wlmailtextlink
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's drawing 200-300 amps per second?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: 55mph
Sorry, but I can only give you the real world-- for a
3300 lb. EV, depending on hills, headwind, etc, it's
between 200-300 amps.
Don't know if that helps,
--- Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the mathematical formula to determine how
much HP I will need to
maintain 55mph.
For i.e.
5,000lbs vehicle x rolling resistance / 10HP= 50mph
would eventually produce
given a long enough run.
(I know that isn't anywhere close to the true
formula ust trying to get an
idea)
God bless
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Controllers should be cheaper, motors should be cheaper, adapters
should be cheaper, chargers should be cheaper, batteries should be
cheaper, EVs should be cheaper. Yes, it would be nice, but unless
the number of units goes up catastrophically, I don't think this is
going to happen.
I do suspect that by going back to the early EV designs, one MIGHT be
able to develop a non-electronic controller that could be reliable,
effective, and inexpensive. It would of course not be able to
replicate all the functions of an electronic unit but it would
work. Mention has been made in the past about contactor
controllers. The big issue with those is the price of the
contactors. Use enough contactors to make it fairly smooth and the
price is right there with a controller. Back when the original EVs
were made, contactor control was the only option. They didn't use
solenoid contactors, they used things like rotating drums or sliders
with contact bars and points. That would be the approach I would
take if I wanted to go that route. It would be kind of interesting
to build a really "old school" conversion using those methods.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, June 24, 2007 10:24 am, Rob Hogenmiller wrote:
> It's drawing 200-300 amps per second?
I think you've got your units wrong. An amp is not a physical quantity,
it's a rate (i.e. quantity per second). "Amps per second" would refer to a
rate of change over time. Bob was estimating a continuous rate, in amps.
To help visualize, it's common to compare electricity to water. A
"coulomb" is a quantity of electrical charge, think of it like a small
quantity (cc, etc) of water flowing through a pipe. An ampere (amp) is
defined as one coulomb passing by a particular point on a conductor, in
one second.
Because it's more practical for the levels of energy we deal with in our
EVs, the unit "amp hour" is more commonly used. It's the same thing, a
quantity of charge. A coulomb is approximately .0003 amp hours.
So, you can see that an amp is a lot like a unit of fluid flow you might
be familiar with, such as GPM or CFM.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
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