EV Digest 6941

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
        by "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: Carbon fiber, not for battery boxes (was: Milestones: Carbon  fiber 
and blogs)
        by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Make it
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Manly EV's,  RE: EV are for girls blog
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Invention to  cool the inside of a car.
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Make it
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.
        by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Plain Text?
        by Joseph Tahbaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: hey can anyone help me with batteries and construction
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) New e-mail!!
        by "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: New e-mail!!
        by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: thundersky cells for cheap, prices
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: hey can anyone help me with batteries and construction
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: whats the difference between gearing a motor for speed vs distance
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Gasless on Greenwood 2007 - into the History Books
        by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Make it
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
All of the fans could be used and any of the larger 12
volt AMG batteries for the vehicle power system.  What
else is there.  Is there any type of DC/DC converters
in them?  96v,120v,144v, to 12v for vehicle power? 
Some of the low and high voltage relays could be used.
 Maybe some of the metal for battery boxes.  And 0 to
5000 Ohm potentiometers in them?  Possible the
transformers for charging the battery banks in the
EV's.  I'm sure many of the parts can be re-used.  I
know I'm not thinking of all the possibility's.  And
back to the DC/AC UPS.  Do you have a UPS that will
except 120volt DC input for 120v AC output?  Would
love to get a hold of one.  I think it's the easiest
and least expensive way to accomplish what I want to
do.  Thanks again,....

Jim
--- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's my dilemma, Jim. I don't know what is usable
> in the EV community. If
> it's in computers and/or office equipment, I
> probably have it....
> Any help on what to look for?
> 
> Pat
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 9:15 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
> 
> Would love to get a hold of one of those UPS units. 
> I
> have a few myself, but they all only except 48
> volts. 
> Although they do have a 2,800 watt output at 120v. 
> That would be enough.  I thought of splitting my
> battery bank for the UPS, but it would be unbalanced
> and still over the voltage limit of the UPS.  So
> what
> do you have available?  And what other types of
> electronic components do you have that may be of use
> to the EV community?  Thank you...
> 
> Jim Dawson
> 
> 
> --- Pat Galliher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Jim,
> > There are a number of existing computer system UPS
> > that use between 120v and
> > 132v DC and convert it to AC. It would be a very
> > simple matter to connect
> > one to the battery pack of your car. I'm an
> > electronics recycler and also
> > new to the forum. I have (literally) tons of stuff
> > that comes through my
> > place that I wonder if it could be put to good use
> > on an EV. The UPSs that I
> > get all have deep cycle batteries in them, but I
> > think they are too small to
> > be of any use. The largest I've noticed are 24 AH
> > rated. Most are 7-12 AH
> > rated. But it would seem some of the electronics
> > could be used for EV
> > projects. 
> > 
> > Pat
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Jim, Saturn Guy
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:34 PM
> > To: EVlist
> > Subject: DC/AC converter (EV to Grid/Home)
> > 
> > Hello all.  I just joined the list and have spent
> > hours reading through some
> > of the archives.  I would like to pick your brains
> a
> > bit and ask if anyone
> > has built a DC/AC converter for an Electric
> Vehicle.
> >  I converted a 94
> > Saturn SL1 and have been driving it since January
> of
> > this year.  I would
> > like to build  an on-board DC/AC converter that
> runs
> > off the 126 volt pack
> > of my EV and puts out 110v ac to run vital parts
> of
> > the house in the event
> > of power outage.  All that energy stored and only
> > have it for the EV feels
> > limited.  So, has anyone built or bought one? 
> I've
> > found nothing out there
> > as of yet, but the web feels almost as vast as
> space
> > its self.  If you don't
> > have a specific spot you're aiming for, you could
> be
> > out there wandering
> > aimlessly for ever.  Thank you to whom ever reads
> > this post.  I know all of
> > your time is important and I do appreciate it.
> >    
> >   Thank you
> >   Jim Dawson
> > 
> >  
> > ---------------------------------
> > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go 
> > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
> > 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
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> > 11:08 AM
> >  
> > 
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> > 11:08 AM
> >  
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
>        
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Got a little couch potato? 
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
>
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> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Who is making these?

Jim

--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was just a Sam's Club and they replace all there
> auto, truck, golf club 
> batteries with Energizer Bunny Batteries. They show
> a display of batteries 
> from the AAAA to the 6 volt golf cart which is rated
> at 220 AH.
> 
> I could not get the reserved min capacity at 75 amps
> rating, but I estimates 
> it should be between 105 to 110 minutes.  They are
> in a black heavy case 
> which are similar to my Trojan batteries with
> lifting attachments.
> 
> The cost of these batteries are about $61.95.
> 
> Roland 
> 
> 



      
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books? 
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Add to the best choices: wood/fiberglass/epoxy laminate.
Mariners use this all the time.
Even with floodies for the past 4years or so, my uncoated plywood benches
above my T-105 strings still show no evidence of any spray as has been
alleged on this list as a risk and a big reason to avoid wood.
Even with availability of aluminum and some of the metals mentioned, the EV
manufacturers of 70-100years ago nearly all made battery boxes out of wood.
Many also made these with handles at each end so you could slide the box o'
batteries in and out of place to replace the batteries.
-MT



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:45 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Carbon fiber, not for battery boxes (was: Milestones: Carbon fiber
and blogs)

I wasn't clear if you are planning to build a battery box from carbon 
fiber, but your post seemed to imply that.

Carbon fiber is probably the worst battery box material.

The problem is that carbon fiber composite is a semiconductor. If the 
batteries short to the carbon fiber, it conducts just the right 
amount to catch the whole box on fire. Other composites are 
non-conductive, so shorts are not a problem. Metals conduct well 
enough that you make plasma locally, then blow a hole in the box, 
vaporize the wire, or blow the battery fuse. Carbon fiber 
incandescences quite nicely.

         The best choices are Kevlar epoxy composite, riveted 2024-T3 
aluminum sheet, or welded 4130 steel. Welded mild steel is fine if 
the rest of the car is mild steel. Welded aluminum ends up to be 
heavier than mild steel unless you heat treat it in an oven after 
welding to get the temper back. 7075 aluminum sheet is stronger than 
2024, but you can't easily bend it. Stainless steel sheet is also a 
pretty good choice, but not as strong as 4130.

         Bill Dube'

         Bill Dube'

At 10:56 PM 6/22/2007, you wrote:
>Remember me? The snotty little girl with big dreams? Well, I'm back,
>and I have a blog. Ish. It's mediocre, but it'll do for now.  I'll
>build a real website...uh...someday.
>
>http://www.electricspritejournals.blogspot.com
>
>Also, I pulled the trunk lid off my donor car and laid up a compsite
>part from it. There was only enough carbon fiber lying around to do
>the top layer, so the structural backing and bottom layer of the skin
>are plain old fiberglass, but this still is a more than 60% weight
>savings(also despite being excessively generous with epoxy. Lesson
>learned.).  If I can get my paws on enough carbon fiber to do the
>whole car without fiberglass, I'll have to do this part over, but it
>is still a pretty exciting milestone.
>Although, since carbon fiber and aluminum experience some type of
>corrosion, this method may be better. Of course, so do aluminum and
>steel and that didn't stop Chevy from using the combination in some
>Corvette parts. I will never lose the visual of seeing aluminum
>crumble like feta cheese...
>
>Question: Does anyone know if it is possible to set up a folder in
>Gmail that will reroute and organize EVDL mail? The digest is
>obnoxious to read through because of all the nested replies, but not
>having it in that form is a little overwhelming.
>
>I feel somehow guilty that this post does not in any way include
>anything technical. Am I doing something wrong if I do not speak in
>variables?
>
>
>May all of your contacts not corrode, and your batteries experience
>unnaturally long life.
>-Amy

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The label says the Energizer Bunny did.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Energizer Bunny Batteries for EV's.


> Who is making these?
>
> Jim
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I was just a Sam's Club and they replace all there
> > auto, truck, golf club
> > batteries with Energizer Bunny Batteries. They show
> > a display of batteries
> > from the AAAA to the 6 volt golf cart which is rated
> > at 220 AH.
> >
> > I could not get the reserved min capacity at 75 amps
> > rating, but I estimates
> > it should be between 105 to 110 minutes.  They are
> > in a black heavy case
> > which are similar to my Trojan batteries with
> > lifting attachments.
> >
> > The cost of these batteries are about $61.95.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pat Galliher wrote:
I'm scrapping UPSs that have all the electronics in them to
accomplish this. I get them from 1KW to 4KW regularly, sometimes
larger. I've had a UPS that was 20KW come in It had about thirty 24
ah 12 batteries in it and some very impressive electronics. I'm not
familiar with EVs enough to know if any of these parts have EV value,
but it would seem that some parts from one DC system could be useful
in another. The main breaker from the batteries to the UPS was rated
at 100 amps 600VDC.

It would be great to be able to reuse some of this stuff.

There is certainly a lot of potential here. I've played with a few UPS's myself to see if they would be useful for other purposes. Here are some of the problems that need to be dealt with:

 - Poor battery chargers.
    - Most just hold the battery at a float voltage around 13.8v.
    - Takes over 24 hours to fully recharge.
    - Not temperature compensated.
    - Constant 13.8v kills the battery in 2-3 years from overcharging.

 - No isolation.
    - Some units tie one side of the battery to the AC powerline!
      Powering it from batteries in your EV connects its pack to the
      AC line.

 - Built for low duty cycles.
    - Batteries sized to work for less than 30 minutes at full load,
      so the inverter and other parts have minimal cooling.
    - Inverter parts are often highly stressed because they don't
      expect it to be used for more than a total of a few hours a year.

 - Requires AC power to operate.
    - None of the ones I've tried can generate AC from battery power
      unless AC power was present when they were turned on.

 - Poor AC waveform.
      All the ones I've seen are "modified sinewave" inverters, which
      really means square wave inverters. They would be very poor for
      running motors or loads sensitive to the waveform.

I'm sure that better quality inverters would help (the ones I've looked at were small cheap ones).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phelps wrote:
The way I see it... very little has changed in the EV area if the first car made 100 years ago could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge. And I am not thinking better, I am thinking cheaper... A switch that
turns on and off for 700 bucks..

Well... to the very casual observer, *most* things have changed "very little" in 100 years; houses, cars, clothes, etc. They work about the same, are about the same size, and cost about the same percentage of your pay. Our great grandfathers would have recognized them all. But that's because these are the *goals* for the designers. How they *achieved* those goals has changed drastically, though.

100 years ago, going 40-100 miles on a charge required an EV with more than half its weight in batteries, ultra-hard skinny tires, a top speed of 15-20 mph, and no creature comforts at all. Constant battery maintenance was an issue. Controllers were just big switches. Charging was entirely manual.

Today, we have improved on this many times over. People's expectations are far higher, and EV performance has risen accordingly. We need half the batteries for the same range. We can drive 3-4 times faster. The cars are far more comfortable; fully enclosed, with heater, air conditioner, radio, power this and that, etc. Controllers are very sophisticated, with many protection and safety features. There is virtually no battery maintenance, and charger operation is fully automatic.

I keep thinking it would be a lot of fun to reproduce one of these early EVs, so more people could see and actually drive one. In a way, they were the "zen" of automobiles -- they did very little, but did it very well. Nobody in his right mind would drive a Ford model T as a daily driver; but many of these early EVs would work superbly for this. They were essentially an NEV done right.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
Granted, if you're going to be tooling around at 315 mph, then you'll
definitely need a tranny, EVen with an AC powered prime mover.  I
just wonder how long it took him to get to the first 100mph though
;-)

Bob Rice, how fast does the Japanese bullet train, or French Acela go? They are transmissionless. :-)

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marty Hewes wrote:
I was considering doing a similar state change heater.  I was
thinking of making a steel box full of tin (or solder), with a
heating element in it. Put it in a high temp insulated box.  Plug in
the heating element while parked until the tin melts.  Then blow air
across it for heat. I'm not sure if 50 lbs of tin going through a
liquid to solid state change can supply more energy than an
additional 50 lbs of battery though.

How about this? You already have half a ton of lead in your EV (the batteries). Use *them* as your heat storage. Since they like to be at the same temperature as us humans (77 deg.F or 25 deg.C), use a heat pump to heat the batteries to cool the car (or to cool the batteries to heat the car). When parked and charging, heat/cool the batteries back to their starting temperature for the next trip.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phelps wrote:
Gee I would have thought that Imagination was the key. You have to
dream a dream and then make it real. It can't be done because nobody
has done it. This is your song?

Since there is such a rich and varied history of electric vehicles, almost everything has been thought of and tried. Thus, totally new ideas are scarce.

However, not all ideas have been properly tested. Often a great idea has suffered from poor implementation, or inadequate funding, or from the builder's lack of knowledge or experience, or simply that it's an idea before its time (a solution for a problem that people don't see yet).

Therefore, I find my greatest source of inspiration is to look over the work that people have done before. See what looked promising, and what went wrong. Often, I can see that the person gave up too soon, or was missing a key piece of information or part or skill that would have made the idea work if he had pursued it a little more.

--
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our local Sam's Club is selling Interstate, golf cart
batteries, they are white with grey tops. 
210ah/105reserve @ $55each  w/6month replacement
warranty.  At least they were a month or so ago when I
purchased mine.  They are delivered to them from an
Interstate dealer that is located very close to them. 
I suspect that Sam's Club, uses as close/local as
possible a supplier when it comes to batteries.



--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was just a Sam's Club and they replace all there
> auto, truck, golf club 
> batteries with Energizer Bunny Batteries. They show
> a display of batteries 
> from the AAAA to the 6 volt golf cart which is rated
> at 220 AH.
> 
> I could not get the reserved min capacity at 75 amps
> rating, but I estimates 
> it should be between 105 to 110 minutes.  They are
> in a black heavy case 
> which are similar to my Trojan batteries with
> lifting attachments.
> 
> The cost of these batteries are about $61.95.
> 
> Roland 
> 
> 


M. Barkley
   
  www.texomaev.com
   
  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have a few questions and clarifications I would
> like to ask before I
> actually jump into the conversion, anyone can reply
> to me on my email
> personally or through the list( if the question
> sound unrelated to this EV
> topic discussion list)
> 
> 1. what is the minimum amount of horse power is
> required to run a 15 kw
> generator ?
Physics text not with me; will take a pass on this
one.

> 2. which batteries are better, 10 12volt lead acid
> or 20 6v lead acid for
> range ?
higher voltage mean less amps, but since you are going
same voltage, the 6V batts. have thicker plates, which
means less resistance and more weight.  More surface
area/more lead mean more range.  But more importantly,
the thicker plates will mean an overall longer life
span.

> 3. does motor size and power rating affect the range
> of an full electric
> vehicle ?
Not necessarily.  It mostly affects torque; larger
armature = more torque.
To a lesser degree, you may have more copper in the
windings and thus slightly more resistance...?

> 4. what voltage and current rating of motor should i
> look for a vehicle of
> gross weight of 900 kgs to go 100 km
900 kg. = roughly 2000 lbs.  100 km = 62 mi.
Most of the home-built EVs I'm familiar with on this
list are in the 25-40 mi. range.

> 5. should i try rebuilding certain parts of the
> vehicle in fibreglass , what
> implications will it have ?
How important is crashworthiness to you?

> 6. what specification of controller should i look
> for this project ? (hey
> anyone in India on this list have a working
> controller or can help me get a
> controller)
Several companies: Belktronix, Curtis, AllTrax, Zilla
are good sources.

> 7. what is regenrative braking , how does it work
> and what mechanisms have
> to be there to put it in to my car.?
Most efficient with AC, not DC controllers.

> 8. can alternators connected to the 4 wheels and
> motor of my car produce
> enough juice to charge a second set of lead acids
> while i am driving ?
They could, but this would be a perpetual motion
machine, which will not work.  Ie, once you generate
EMF from the alternators, you will instantly increase
the load on your vehicle's motor.

> 9. where can I get kits for the controller ? is it
> possible to get them ,
> either import or get them somehow in Mumbai ?
Motorola, which makes the transistors, has some
schematics for a DC controller.  Most find it safest
and easiest to purchase, not manufacture their own.

> 10. what kind of batteries are best for getting the
> maximum range apart from
> li-ion and li polymer ? and what is their cost and
> price ? which is the best
> deal overall for say a range of 100 miles with
> speeds over    100 kmph ?
Good luck; this technology is extremely expensive, but
was available in Nickel metal hydride vehicles like
the Toyota RAV-4EV, and GM EV-1.

> 11. do I need to do some modifications on the
> electronics level to get the
> most range from my setup ?
I believe you are referring to the existing 12V
system; radio, headlights, etc.
> 
> I hope you answer some of these questions and do not
> ignore this mail like
> my last post.
> 
When people ignore, it _may_ be the case that you are
starting with too little knowledge for someone to want
to help you-- it would take them too long to bring you
up to speed.
Best to check out wikipedia, or purchase Mike Brown's
"Convert It".  Best $25 USD that I ever spent on
EV-related stuff.
Best to you, 


Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too! 
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
                          ____ 
                     __/__|__\ __        
  =D-------/    -  -         \  
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? 
Are you saving any gas for your kids?


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search 
that gives answers, not web links. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, it's Joseph.

I'm new around here so I've been having some problems with my e-mail
sending in "rich" text. I switched to Gmail which provides "plain"
text too.


Everyone, can you read this message?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Balancing only during charging will get the job half way done. With shunting you'll accumulate quite bad well-to-wheel efficiency. Also the charging time will be longer.

During discharge balancing is quite useful since you'll get the most of range out too. And not stressing the weakest link the most. Also the discharging can be weary process.

With Lions you'll get the range and at least in my drivings it takes several hours to deplete the batteries. So power is not the issue with balancing. You have time for the compensation procedures. Also pre-emptive balancing methods are essential.

Ok. Say you wish the pack to last 50 000 miles. You'll get away with 200 mile range and 250 cycles. No balancing required. Some tape, bubble gum and protection circuits will do the job.

So how about if the 3000 cycles could be achieved with the best BMS ever made? That's with 70% average DOD about 400 000 miles. Say you invest the 30 000 on the pack with BMS and charger. That's 0,075 USD for a mile !

(20 kWh/100 km assumed as average here)

-Jukka



Tony Hwang kirjoitti:
Yes that would be better to move charge around instead of shunting, but there's no way to 
make an active charge shuttling balancer for "cheap", at least not that I know 
of.

                   - Tony

----- Original Message ----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:39:45 AM
Subject: RE: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack

Please educate me if I am wrong but I would think that if you want to
balance your batteries you wouldn't want to drain some down to match the
others but charge the low ones to match the others.  Using shunt
regulators will waste valuable charging current won't it?  I think Lee
Hart makes a battery balancer that takes the current and shunts it
AROUND the battery but does not run it through a resistor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marcin Ciosek
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:12
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack

Tony,

recently I bough 1900 LiFP cells (not from A123 but it doesn't matter)
and the voltage difference between highest and lowest value was 7mV !!
Assuming you will start from similar point you balancer will do the
trick as long as zener diodes won't differ too much (usually tolerance
of of shunt voltage is 5%). That's my opinion. I would add a protection
circuit preventing cells from deep discharge.
If you don't need fancy BMS that would cost (for you configuration) 400E
this will work fine.
Marcin




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looks great to me !!!!

john

Joseph Tahbaz wrote:
Hello, it's Joseph.

I'm new around here so I've been having some problems with my e-mail
sending in "rich" text. I switched to Gmail which provides "plain"
text too.


Everyone, can you read this message?



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Well.. How else you think I will sell only sealed battery packs ??

No tinkering ! Remote diagnostics tells me the minute someone tampers it with something. Warranty void after few phone calls to customer to resolve the situation. If a mistake and no damage to the system warranty can stay.

Us.. EV hobbyists should never be allowed near anything we do not comprehend. Including the situation when we THINK we comprehend.

TS might or might not replace the cells. I'll be back in the factory next wednesday and this is on the agenda. Keep your fingers crossed.

-Jukka


Marty Hewes kirjoitti:
Quite frankly, our market is a very risky market for anyone to deal with, especially for a product like batteries that requires hard won knowledge to properly apply.

We used to sell computer components. Way too often, customers would buy expensive stuff that they didn't know how to use. They would often either expect us to walk them through installing and debugging over the phone, or they would ruin the product through misuse, and expect us to replace it, all free of charge of course. This, after they searched the whole web to find the lowest price place to buy the stuff from, so there was way too little margin in the product to provide any of these support services.

Now we sell clocks, pet rocks were also a consideration :).

God bless anyone who manages to serve the EV community. Hopefully they can retain enough margin to cover what must be horrendous support costs without personally going bankrupt. Afterall, in this market, nearly every project is a one off, and many customers are beginners.

I'm not saying Thundersky batteries were mis-applied in the past. I'm just saying if I was going to warranty a fragile product for the EV home builder, how could I warranty it yet protect myself from losses due to mis-application. Until we can answer this question, we're going to have a hard time getting any battery company to cater to us. If I could figure it out, I might become a battery distributor. Maybe a circuit breaker built into the battery?

Marty

----- Original Message ----- From: "john fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: thundersky cells for cheap, prices


well I DID say someone would have to go to China and test them. And I didn't volunteer, though I would love to go.... For anyone interested, the latest Atlantic mag has a good article by James Fallows about how Chinese manufacturing works. Its not at all like the popular image of rickety sweatshops, if indeed that is still the popular image. and of course TS is just a single manufacturer out of tens of thousands, the same deal could be worked with one of the other battery companies.

It does sound a like a niche market too small for the manufacturer to develop overseas in the West ( compared to selling to Sony or HP, but maybe just big enough for one or two savvy Westerners to develop.

JF

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello JF
In response to your request from someone looking at this from a business analysis prospective. It would however require enough people to have faith to be willing to put the money up front. This is what happened before. The group buy is a great way to go with everyone sharing the risk. The benefit is everyone gets a better deal and no need for any profit.






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Some general answers below:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of gulabrao ingle
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2007 8:11 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: hey can anyone help me with batteries and construction
>
>
> <snip a bit>
>
> 1. what is the minimum amount of horse power is required to run a 15 kw
> generator ?

My 5KW Genset runs an 8 hp Briggs and Stratton engine

> 2. which batteries are better, 10 12volt lead acid or 20 6v lead acid for
> range ?

The 6V flooded lead acid batteries will likely give slightly better range and 
may last longer in a cycling application if they are
true deep cycle, cycling batteries.

> 3. does motor size and power rating affect the range of an full electric
> vehicle ?

Both affect your acceleration capabilities for obvious reasons.  There will be 
a very slight efficiency advantage to the bigger
motor, but it will run cooler and live longer than a tiny little motor that is 
expected to operate at its peak all the time.

> 4. what voltage and current rating of motor should i look for a vehicle of
> gross weight of 900 kgs to go 100 km

Depending on the acceleration performance you desire you could go anywhere from 
a 6.7" to 8" (or even a 9" if you want brute
force).  But practically speaking the 8" may be easier to fit in a small car.  
See John Waylands two 8" motors in his Datsun 1200
www.plasmaboyracing.com.  Most DC motors in this range can operate up to 
144V-160Vdc. You can find seveal options at
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=533

> 5. should i try rebuilding certain parts of the vehicle in fibreglass , what
> implications will it have ?

Get the car moving and driving around first.  Get a feel for driving it, if 
you're happy with the performance then just leave it
as is.  If you want to race it or want incremental performance increases then 
you could start looking at lightening.  900Kg is not
too heavy for a ecent conversion.


> 6. what specification of controller should i look for this project ? (hey
> anyone in India on this list have a working controller or can help me get a
> controller)

Look for one that people don't complain too much about warranty or repair work. 
 Or at least one that you can get somone to work
on and fix for you if the smoke gets let out. Or you could look for cheap ones 
that you won't mind replacing every so often, maybe
have another cheap one on hand as a spare.  Or get one that is reliable that 
never breaks but that WILL get serviced if it does.
You can find some choices here http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=277

> 7. what is regenrative braking , how does it work and what mechanisms have
> to be there to put it in to my car.?

Its an inherent implementation to an AC powered system, much harder to 
effectively implement on a DC system.  If you're looking at
minimizing expense and complexity I'd go with DC for the first one.  If you 
decide to take on AC and/or regenerative braking know
that people report anywhere from 5%-15% recovery of energy expended in 
accelerating depending on wether they do long drives with 1
stop or lots of stop-and-go driving.

> 8. can alternators connected to the 4 wheels and motor of my car produce
> enough juice to charge a second set of lead acids while i am driving ?

Why waste the power you already have stored in your car to charge another set 
of batteries.  Alternators will run off wheels and
will charge other batteries but will load your primary pack down in doing so. 
Since any system will have inefficiencies, it is a
net loss.  Just charge and drive, then charge and drive.... or is it drive and 
charge then drive and charge.  I forget :-)

> 9. where can I get kits for the controller ? is it possible to get them ,
> either import or get them somehow in Mumbai ?

You can search the web for the Open Source Motor Controller projects.  Or to 
save yourself a lot of blown components in building
and testing you could just look for a used Curtis or Altrax controller on 
e-bay.  Sometimes you can come across complete EV kits
for small cars on e-bay, motor, controller and sometimes contactors, cable and 
adaptor plates.

> 10. what kind of batteries are best for getting the maximum range apart from
> li-ion and li polymer ? and what is their cost and price ? which is the best
> deal overall for say a range of 100 miles with speeds over    100 kmph ?

At that speed and that range you may have a difficult time getting Lead Acid to 
make that kind of performance.  Maybe more like 50
miles at 50 mph (with Lead Acid)  You could look to nickel-metal-hydride 
batteries for a little weight savings but they will cost
a bit more.  Just the regular golf cart style 6V flooded batteries probably 
make the best economic case, for example they cost ~
$64 USD each a the local wholsaler stores here in the US and could be good for 
2-3 years.

> 11. do I need to do some modifications on the electronics level to get the
> most range from my setup ?

If you use a big enough motor that you won't be cooking it, and make some 
decent crimps on lugs with sufficient size wire, and use
a pre manufactured controller, then your efficiency gains of any significance 
will be to rolling resistance of the tires, friction
in bearings and gear boxes and aero- drag.

>
> I hope you answer some of these questions and do not ignore this mail like
> my last post.
>
> Thanks
> Gulabrao

All of these things have been discussed in exhaustive detail here on the list 
in the past un der their own subject title.
Sometimes the topics resurface and are discussed again.  Those topics are 
usually easier to find by searching the archives.
However if you search the archives and cannot find your answer someone here can 
either refer you to the date and maybe the subj:
line, or start re-answering your question.  Its typically better to ask a 
specific question with the topic clearly stated in the
subj: line.  This ensures you will get answers about the topic, and help you 
get more detailed responses because the toic is
narrow and certain people have very detailed knowledge in certain areas, and 
overall makes it easier for those in the future to
find it in the archives.

Hope this helps.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

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I think you answer your own question.  Gearing is the key.  Through the 
combination of transmission and the differential gearing
you can achieve either high-torque/low speeds or low-torque/high speeds.  You 
just need to start with the optimum rpm of the motor
and then work the gear ratios to what you want to see for top speed, or top 
acceleration.  If you have a specific car in mind we
might be able to help better knowing the typical gearing setup of the car.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of gulabrao ingle
> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 9:03 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: whats the difference between gearing a motor for speed vs
> distance
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> I want to know what do we have to do to set up a motor and battery setup to
> gear it for distance vs gearing it for speed ?
>
> well I know that a car with a PbA+dc motor can get 130 mph @ a range of 20
> miles or the same setup can give me 70 mph @ 100 miles
>
> what do I have to change or configure to achieve either of these goals ?
>
> is  it the controller ? or is it the motor ?
>
> Thanks
> Gulabrao
>

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--- Begin Message --- More people, More Electric Cars, More interested people. The Greenwood Hot Rod Show in North Seattle is a BIG one, and our EV-Exhibit was the best and biggest ever. 16 vehicles! And the crowds Loved every one of them.

Special Thanks have to go out to John Wayland, and his group. What an EV Trooper to drive two cars all the way up from Portland. He was swamped with interested spectators all day long. Thanks to Stephen Johnsen and his relatives and their beautiful S10-GM-EV, Thanks to Craig Vinton and His S10-EV and Segway. Thanks to Dan Davids and his mint condition Toyota RAV4-EV, Thanks to Paul "Neon" Gooch bringing his beautiful purple Electric Dune Buggy....and we pass to him our condolences over his Controller Failure. Story goes, it Failed ON, and almost put Paul and the Buggy into his neighbors motor home. Lucky for Paul it did not decide to Fail, until he got home. Thanks to Kent Bakke and his Red VW Bug driven to the show and back by Steve Marks.. Lots of people were drooling over his new $$ mult Thousand Dollar $$ pack of Li-Ion batteries. Thanks to Dave Cloud and his "Plug-In Hybrid Geo Metro" Very ingenious... a separate 5th electric drive wheel.. all manually controlled however.. Thanks to Ryan Fulcher and wife for bringing their Manzanita Micro PHEV Toyota Prius, along with constant EV Videos all day long from the trunk of the Prius. Thanks to Don "Father Time" Crabatree and his EV Drag Bike which actually Won a Prize for Best in Show for Scooters. Too bad he had battery problems on the way back to his truck n Trailer, but John Wayland caught up with him and gave him a helping hand. Thanks to Jeff Douthwaite and Kirby Jacobson for bringing a pair of 3-wheel Chinese Zap Xerba's. They were both crowd stoppers. Thanks to John Marshall and his new EV VW Rabbit Pick up. A wonderful example of a home conversion. Thanks to Dave Barden and his Electric Honda 600. Thanks to MC-Electric and Steve Mayeda for letting us bring a Dinasty IT electric. Lots of folks were excited to know such things were For Sale

And special thanks to my wife Donna who helped get our back yard in such wonderful shape for the SEVA Picnic after the show.

A personal apology to those folks who came late, and found that we were running out of food. Even though we could have made an EV Dash back to the store, some had to get going, without a proper meal. Sorry to the many folks who could not make the picnic. It was a good time to De-compress from a very active day on the streets of Seattle.

Thanks again to everyone.....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org

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Hello Mitchell, Rob, Dan F. and All,

Mitchell, Rob, and Dan F., you are all obviously new to the EV scene. However, it appears you are not aware of the electronics, the high current devices, and all it actually takes to smoothly, efficiently, safely, and reliably control hundreds of amps in a motor controller.

From Mitchell:

Imagination is the key to success not a trip down the same road everybody else has took.

I have acquaintances who sound a lot like you. They have all said almost verbatim, what you have said here. They constantly use their 'imagination' instead of the part of their brains that use sound reasoning based on proven technology and scientific realities. This comes about, because they have never bothered to do the really hard part, that is, study, listen, and learn about science, math, and the laws of physics that pretty much govern the way all things work. Constant proclamations about 'revolutionary technology' about everything from over-unity, perpetual motion, cold fusion, 5th dimensional energy, sucking neutrinos from the earth, transverceiver energy gatherers, vehicles with 'secret' small black boxes that supposedly allow normal batteries to give far more power than what was originally stored into them, and yes, even space invaders/visitors are among us right now, take away any credibility they once had, and today no one takes them seriously any more.

Understanding and using science does not equate to ignoring or not using one's imagination. In fact, it is when a person with a creative mind 'and' a good imagination combines their open thought to their sound understanding of physics, math, and the laws of nature, that the truly great inventions occur. They don't occur by simply wishing for them, or by telling everyone around them that something can be done without first having a strong understanding about how the present state of the art works.

From Mitchell:

The way I see it ..
Very little has changed in the E V area if the first car made 100 years ago
could get 40 to 100 miles on a charge


This comment has been heard soooo many times before, and it is now as it always has been, very inaccurate.

(1) On range....EVs from the turn of the century could indeed, go 40 -75 miles, but the 100 mile bit is really stretching it though. More importantly, they did this kind of range at only 15-25 mph and could barely do 40 mph, let alone 55 mph highway speeds as today's EV can easily do. How do you compare crawling along at 15-25 mph at 50 miles range, to 60 mph at 120 miles range (what Red Beastie did on regular lead acid batteries) and say nothing has changed? At 15-25 mph Red Beastie could have gone 300+ miles with ease...a 600% increase in range. To make it fair, if you compare factory EV to factory EV, the 1920's Baker electric could do ~35 mph and go 60 miles or so on a charge...the EV1 with NiMH batteries could do 150 miles @ 70 mph...that's twice as fast and three times as far at that speed! And you say 'little has changed'?

(2) On acceleration...The the turn of the century EVs couldn't even hit 60 mph, but if you were to measure 0-35 mph, it probably took 10 seconds. The modern day EV ran 0-35 in probably 2 seconds, and the 0-60 in under 8 seconds! And you say 'little has changed'?

(3) On charging time...The the turn of the century EVs took about 10 -14 hours to recharge. Today's backyard conversions can recharge in less than an hour. let's see....going from 10-14 hours to under an hour....And you say 'little has changed'?

(4) On regen....Though some early 1900 designs did have regen, it worked poorly, and the majority did not have it at all. Today's modern AC powered factory EVs all have seamless regen that can add 10-15% range in hilly terrain and really improve braking.

Please you new guys, try to not make such sweeping statements. EVs have changed dramatically since the turn of the century!

Rob Hogenmiller wrote:

I've been checking out these speed controllers for electric vehicles. I'm somewhat dissapointed in what I've come across.


You're probably disappointed, because you don't understand what it takes to accomplish the variable control of hundreds of amps at higher-than-12 volts. If you understood just what it takes to do it, you'd more than likely have another view, like 'wow', they can design build, and sell a reliable 400 amp 72V motor controller for only $500?

When I raced shifterkarts we had speed controllers for our vehicles we could select A, B, C, or D programs each setting could be programmed on a computer to deliver different types of power curves. I think they were around $250.

http://www.swedetechracingengines.com/parts_accessories/pictures/spi_548x480-047c.jpg


Rob, I don't mean to sound rude, but this is exactly what I'm talking about, The device you link us to, is not a 'motor controller' at all. You think it is, because it is evidently used to add some low power signal 'control' to a gas kart engine. This device is merely a 'circuit', a low current interface for an internal combustion Kart engine. It is not even remotely close to a DC motor controller...it doesn't control an electric motor and hundreds of amps (that kind of power level can weld and melt one inch thick steel plate), and instead, probably has at most, a few amps at 12V flowing thought it and controlling some relays, throttle stop solenoids, fuel flow rates, and or fuel pot settings. The first clue is that is is tiny, it has small 16-18 gauge wires with multi-pin signal type connectors, and lacks any high current lugs and or heat sink. Comparing this device which probably manipulates maybe 10 watts of energy or so, to a DC motor controller that manipulates 20,000 - 100,000 watts of energy is pointless. It's like comparing a coffee cup's volume to that of a swimming pool. With this explanation at hand, you should be outraged (not impressed) about its $250 dollar cost when for only twice that amount, a 400 amp 72 volt motor controller controls 2000 times the energy!! This little gadget you sent us to, could probably be made for about $30 in parts.



>I have messaged the gentleman that makes them to see if he would have interest in building them for EV's.


Rob, to get a better grasp on the power level EV motor controllers operate at, you should put on a welding helmet, leather gloves and other appropriate protection, then access an arc welder. Set the welder to 200+ amps and notice the welder's heavy weight 2/0 welding cables needed to pass that kind of current. Go melt steel into glowing globs of white-hot liquid metal. Notice the intense flashes, the intense heat, and the overall power this kind of juice packs....then multiply it by a factor of 5 or so, and you'll get to the power level of a road-going EV's motor controller! After you do this, go back to your link to that dinky little 'device' that controls presets for some little solenoid valves or whatever of a small gas engine....look at its tiny wires and connectors, and think about your email to him about making one into an EV's motor controller! Too bad you didn't check in with us before sending that email. He's going to be wondering what a gasoline fuel control circuit has to do with controlling the gigantic loads of electric traction motors. If he's aware of power electronics, he'll also probably wonder how you looked at his little signal control device and thought it was similar to an electric motor speed controller. He probably knows what it takes to build a for-real DC motor controller in the 20,000 - 100,000 watt range.

It's good to use your imagination along with learned knowledge to come up with better ways of doing things. It is however, reckless to 'only' use imagination while ignoring the experience of others who have studied and designed working machinery and devices.

See Ya.....John Wayland

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