EV Digest 6970
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Made the first step recently...
by Matthew Drobnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Motor weight
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor weight
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Controler space
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: I have an IDEA!
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Hybrids done right, Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor weight
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Building A Motor
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pump for Water Cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Motor weight
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by James Drysdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Slightly OT: Painting your EV for less than $100
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor weight
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AC HP or kW
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: I have an IDEA!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Trojan costs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, the 27th, I ordered a Zilla 2k, 300 V controller....with an
estimated 20 week lead time. :-/
The good news is that I'll have a controller that'll kick butt. The bad
news is it will take a while.
Approx lead time on PHET batteries is a month. I've read 2-3 weeks on
the motor. So, by far, this is the longest wait.
On my way to being an EVer,
-Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Motor weight
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 07:10:39 +0200
just throwing it outthere since most might well know but isn't the typical
dc motors grossly overweight?
cast iron housing that looks like it could hold 1000bar pressure.
given how small the shaft diameter is, isn't that hideously oversized?
couldn't the weight be halved easily?
Dan
Hi, Dan,
The outer cylinder - or shell - of a series DC motor ( like the ADC series
motors , for examples) doesn't just act as a mechanical case. The shell
serves as part of the magnetic circuit ( with the field coils) that creates
the fixed magnetic field that is required for the motor to function.
If you thinned down this shell (or, replaced it with aluminum) the motor
would operate with reduced performance, ( or, maybe, not work at all).
If this heavy shell were not needed as part of the magnetic path, the
manufactures would already be making it of thinner (and/or lighter)
material.
In a sense, natural selections works for manufactured products. If it were
possible to make lighter, cheaper series motors with the same performance,
someone would already be making them and successfully selling them. And,
the current, poor design, would have disappeared from the marketplace.
Phil Marino
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
In a sense, natural selections works for manufactured products. If it
were possible to make lighter, cheaper series motors with the same
performance, someone would already be making them and successfully
selling them. And, the current, poor design, would have disappeared
from the marketplace.
Hi
I'm not sure that's entirely true. seems to me some markets are very
conservative. even semi fancy markets like boeing and airbus are now
switching to composite materials when those are far from new. the
electromotor market seems extremely conservative to me
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe it is all as simple as anything but O2 in the box with the controller.
Maybe carbon dioxide ..Would do the trick..
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Steven Ciciora
Date: 6/28/2007 11:52:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Controler space
I just watched the tonight show w/ Jay Leno, and they
Recommended using sulfer hexafloride gas. They placed
A running stun-gun in a tank of it, and it kept it
>From arcing. As soon as the electrodes reached
Oxygen, it started arcing again. And, it really has a
Cool effect on your voice when you inhale it.
- Steven Ciciora
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Use hydrogen. :-)
> The ev250 main contactors we use are filled with it.
> In the absence of
> O2 it doesn't explode and it helps surpress the arc.
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________________
______
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated
for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aha! Cool! Thanks for the link! That does make a lot more sense.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 21:09
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: I have an IDEA!
I think you are getting your units confused and/or perhaps not
remembering correctly.
The battery pack weighs 450 kgs (1,000 lbs).
The car weighs 1600+ lbs, NOT inculding the battery. Total weight of
the vehicle (including batteries) is 2690 lbs. This is from Tesla's
website:
http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/tech_specs.php
> On the discovery channel Tesla motors said their battery pack only
> weighed 412 pounds. Where did you get 1000? The whole car weighs
> only 1600.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 14:42
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: I have an IDEA!
>
> There are over 7000 laptop batteries in the Tesla, that weighs about
> 1000 pounds.
> They use a liquid cooling system to keep the laptop batteries from
> overheating.
>
> Mike - is that $29k calculation about what other companies are
> charging for their stuff?
>
> Last I heard, Valence wanted $1200 for a single automotive lithium ion
> battery (and you'd need at least 12, never mind the charging/balancing
> and other maintenance equipment)
>
> I think I'll let the folks with more development sponsors do the
> development work.
> Then again, who knows? in 5 years, Phoenix Motors may have a car for
> sale at the 30k mark, which is affordable for some people (um, not
me).
>
> You could probably pick up batteries from one of those (wrecked)
> vehicles for a reasonable price....
>
>
> Ed Cooley
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 06/27/2007 23:39
> Please respond to
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
>
> To
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> cc
>
> Subject
> RE: I have an IDEA!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Those are only 2.4 Amp hour packs. Four in series would give you a
> 144V
>
> 2.4AH pack. For a typical size conversion if you assume you want
> 15KWh pack, you might get away less because of the weight reduction,
> but say 15KWh. You would need 43 parallel strings of 4-series
> batteries. At $169 each that would be 43 x 4 x $169 = $29,068.
> Thats not be cheap, but it would work. ;-)
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Joseph T.
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:06 PM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Subject: I have an IDEA!
>>
>>
>> I just got this idea and it probably won't work!
>>
>> How about I take 4 36 volt DeWalt battery packs and use them in an
>> electric car!Then, I'll program the charger not to charge them all
>> the way to 100%. I'll need to either have a battery balancer or tend
>> to each cell to make sure that they are balanced.
>>
>> Can someone please point out to me why this won't work?
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
I wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And Honda quit making them right? I guess it was from lack of sales?
The only one to get now is the Civic Hybrid.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerryd
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 21:19
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Hybrids done right, Re: Would you build if you could buy?
Hi Damon and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:56:57 +0000
>With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I
>can't help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda
>Insight that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why
>these hybrid folks want to roll their own when they can just go out
>and buy one straight from the factory. I know the main reason is
>because they want to build a plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull
>that they can come up with something anywhere close to as good as the
>hybrids that can't be plugged in but can be purchased at a dealers
>lot.
I agree the Insight is an excellent investment both giving the
best mileage of any car in the world I know of.
And built of alum, basicly hand built, few made, the first Hybrid on the
US market so in not many yrs of saving a hell of a lot of gas, you'll
probably be able to sell it for more than you bought it.
It's hard to find any lower overall cost car than an Insight!!
What amazes me is more on this list don't own them. Had I not gone
3wheel, I'd buy one. Once I make too much money I'll probably buy some
just for investment purposes.
>
>It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a
>factory EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now
>that come at a premium. I think the
>hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000. It's
>hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch of upscale
>options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but let's go with
>that marketing model. If you could buy a factory built Civic, Accord,
>Camary, S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but
>you had to pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much more
>would you be willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as
>conversions, or would the type of people that haunt this list rather
>continue to roll their own?
Except you can't get good EV performance from most ICE gliders,
it shouldn't cost much more for a real hybrid than an ICE, under 10%
more.
Just how much do you thin Detroit will pay for EV motors, ect?
Not much more than mass quanity parts cost so say a real 4 passenger EV
sedan, 2000lbs, would only need a 75kw EV motor with a 25hp ICE/gen used
series/parallel. This costs less than a heavier, big motored ICE does
even using batteries which in the quanity Detroit would buy would only
cost them aout $1.50/lb for lead batts like Hawkers/Orbitals which for
100 mile range you would need about 1000lbs of. As an ICE motor/trans
costs about $3k, the hybrid set up is not that much more, less than $1k
in a 50 mile EV range hybrid.
These used in the same 30%-80% range and only topped up at home
plugged in could last 5-8 yrs, 40k-80k miles, and only cost $500 for a
replacement as the materials are just recycled so plenty of profit in
them at this low price figuring $25/batt/10 batts for recycling. Easily
lower than gas costs including electricity.
>
>I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would
>gladly pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile
>range.
That can be had in the Sunrise if you max it out on lead though
200 miles is really pushing it, probably only at 40 mph steady. But it
could easily get 150 mile range on 1800 lbs of GC batts with AC drive.
You get a lot of range when you discharge over 3 hrs or so, a lot more
than 1c or 5c!!
Although I certainly don't
>need this much range everyday, it is a reflection of some of the
>longer trips I would still want to be able to take.
>If it only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a
>specialty car that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of
>premium for.
Until Li gets as cheap as lead/kwhr and lasts an EV's lifetime
or at least 20 yrs, you are not going to be worthwhile in an EV with
over 100 mile range for most people as for much less weight, cost, you
can have a small gen and get unlimited range at 100 mpg if low drag like
the Sunrise.
The idea is an EV, not a lead or other metal mine!!
sometimes people just take a tech too far as to not except viable
solutions like trading a $1k, 100 lb gen set for 500 lbs of batts rarely
used and 50 extra mile range vs unlimited range.
In fact for most people, just 50 mile range on EV would be
enough to only use a few gas tanks/yr and save 50% on battery costs!
That's basicly where I think cars, trucks will end up, small
ICE's and 20-100 mile range EV drive doing all the low speed work, much
of the high speed work. It's the logical because it's the overall low
cost way.
And turn key production is the only way these will ever be more
than a drop in the bucket. Few will convert, build their own.
Jerry Dycus
>
>damon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just recently had did some touch up on a fender of two cars. I just
went to Harbor Freight and got an HVLP gun.
I told the the paint store I was using this gun and the paint was mixed
accordingly.
This is a gravity fed system that minimizes the fogging of the chemicals
and the amount of thinning needed.
I didn't need a mask and cleanup was a breeze.
I thought this new way of painting was a result of the tough EPA laws in
california, Are you saying they have gotten even tighter?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/29/07, Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If this heavy shell were not needed as part of the magnetic path, the
manufactures would already be making it of thinner (and/or lighter)
material.
That is true for motors sold for mobile applications where weight
matters. Most of various kinds of the electric motors sold are for
stationary applications, which in some cases even benefit from heavy
construction.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are going to the trouble of taking apart a window air
conditioning unit why not just use a portable AC/Heat pump unit. I saw
one on Newegg that could be modified to do the whole heat/AC needs of a
car. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16896100122
On top of that you get automatic temperature regulation. It draws only
9 amps. So far I haven't found an inverter that will take 120 VDC to
make 120VAC though.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Davidson
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 22:38
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
I think what these guys are doing is driving the compressor of an
already working AC system in the donor car. Your suggestion should work
good in a car without an existing AC system, or one that doesn't work.
I think Jerry Dycus is taking this approach in his Freedom EV.
Dave
>From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
>Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:31:36 -0500
>
>Frankly, I think you guys are going the wrong way with these solutions.
>
>If you have a 120V nom pack, you can take apart a 15,000 or so BTU
>windor air conditioner unit.
>The compressor and motor are integrated, which at first seems terrible
>since the motor is AC, but that motor is way smaller and cheaper,
>largely because it is cooled by the freon running through it. Far, far
>more practical design for the application.
>
>Really if you have a 120VDC pack or more, driving a 120V AC motor is
>hardly rocket science. This is a fairly simple inverter circuit as
>things go, it should be able to handle somewhat higher pack voltages by
>just reducing the duty cycle of the waveform but I'm not sure how much
>higher. It's only 15 amps or so and the inverter only needs to switch
>at 60Hz so switching losses are generally easy to manage. I might be
>interested in doing this design.
>
>A DC/DC converter could certainly accomodate higher or lower voltages,
>though it's more complicated than just a 60Hz inverter. Well, the
>buck/boost ratio isn't that great and that always makes these
>converters easier to pull off.
>
>These guys who pop up periodically who want to build their own EV
>controller, this is the direction to send them in.
>
>Danny
>
>Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
>>When I've done this - almost 10 years ago - I used 180V 6.7A Leeson PM
>>DC motor running straight off of 120VDC nom pack (~130V actual) It was
>>consuming about 5.5A at that voltage which translates to 715W which is
>>less than 1hp. But CRX compressor is tiny and efficient, so may not
>>take that much power.
>>Starting current surge must of been 20-25A or so, but I never bothered
>>to measure.
>>
>>Mike Chancey already provided links to these photos (thanks Mike!):
>>
>>http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood1.jpg
>>http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
>>http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
>>
>>I had the system constantly on without cycling, which was not such a
>>good idea, but I kept it on for ~5 min at the time and turn of by
hand.
>>I used DC SSR to control it just by the switch on the dash - very
>>primitive but took 10 min to wire up, and I had cold. SSR was bolted
>>to the adapter plate which served as a heat sink for it.
>>
>>The motor, when ran unloaded, ran at whatever RPM lower voltage
>>provided, but when it actually was linked to the compressor it didn't
>>slow down a bit as if there is very light load. That tells me that
>>mechanical power required was not that much (or the motor was overkill
>>and didn't even "feel" that load.
>>
>>Today I'd do this differently, but as far as power required I don't
>>believe you need much more than 1kW motor to run average car A/C.
>>In fact 1hp (736W) is adequate for efficient modern compressor,
>>especially scroll type.
>>
>>BTW, I don't remember having any difficulty to take the pulley/clutch
>>off and fit it with rubber spider coupling (lovejoy?) I bought in
>>Pulvis bearing. Compressor has all bearings to support its shaft, but
>>that might be the case for ones used in Honda CRX/Civic and not
>>generic case.
>>
>>Victor
>>
>>--
>>'91 ACRX - something different
>>
>>Christopher Robison wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 12:07 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>>You are underestimating the power requirements of a car A/C
compressor.
>>>>While it varies by make and model and I have no hard numbers, car
>>>>A/C is sized like a huge wall unit, people have said 20K-30K BTU
>>>>equivalent which would be something like 4 or 5 HP. The draw varies
>>>>substantially with temp differential as far as I know- I saw this
>>>>powering a 6500 BTU off an inverter, I got 80A @ 12V at start and it
>>>>worked up to like 120A eventually.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've been worried about this too. I may be forced to use a belt for
>>>this reason, so I can reduce the size of the motor pulley, and then
>>>just deal with the underperforming A/C. At the size of my 2HP motor
>>>(5 inch diameter, about 10 inches long, and heavy) I can't imagine a
>>>5HP motor of the same design.
>>>
>>>>Doesn't a compressor require a substantial surge power to turn on?
No
>>>>prob if it's just a mattor of not being within the motor's
>>>>continuous rating but if it exceeds the motor's max stall torque
>>>>then the system will never get turning in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>>If the system is not pressurized, I believe that the compressor will
>>>automatically soft-start as it builds up pressure over the first few
>>>seconds of operation. I believe that building A/C units often have a
>>>timer to prevent the system from being switched on until a suitable
>>>delay has expired, to allow the system to depressurize through the
>>>expansion valve, for this reason. Maybe such a timer would be in
>>>order here too.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Don't miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from
Microsoft Office Live
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just thinking in general, something that would be able to do something
and be useful. I have two starter motors and was hoping to take the apart
and see if I could make them into a motor that worked. Was hoping that might
be a nice website on the basics of building a practical motor.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Building A Motor
Do you mean a big motor, or a little one for a science experiment?
On 6/28/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any good websites on teading how to build a motor?
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Mike,
Well thank you so much for that info my friend!
This is exactly the valuable non-robot information that we hope to find
on user mailing lists :-)
I checked out the Scientific American website to search for back issues
of the article you described.
Digital reproductions are only available from 1993 onwards.
And they have no listing for December 1983, but as they appear to be
published quarterly I assume you mean October - December of 1983?
Just like to check before I order the back issue.
Going by your description it seems worth it.
I believe in supporting publishers & don't like giving or receiving
*free* photocopies, however if you are able to find the article [I know
the feeling ;-)] and email me a scan of the article while I wait for the
back issue to arrive (live overseas, may take a while) that would be
fantastic. And fair on the Scientific American as well :-)
So the motor sounds like a fair enough option?
By pedalling as well I should get enough speed to safely move with the
cars - nothing is as scary as riding too slow changing lanes without
being a danger to all.
I have been tossing whether to install it in my bike frame & drive the
bike's wheels or onboard a trailer that I am welding up & have it drive
that.
Of course I would need to adapt the trailer some how, having 2 wheels
side by side, not in-line like a bicycle.
I've seen differentials that recumbent trike owners sometime use, have
no idea of pricing, need to research that.
A (centered) third wheel would be tricky to manage on a trailer, and two
motors will be expensive.
*question to all* - motor & differential VS two motors & no differential
Would you install 2 x small motors, one on each side-by-side wheel on a
bicycle trailer, or use one larger motor & install with some
differential setup?
If I installed two motors, wouldn't I need some way of controlling the
speed of each as I turned left-right? Otherwise my inner wheel would
slip and/or its motor put under stress.
That's enough for now, time for me to get up off my backside & do some
research of my own.
And continue building that trailer frame :-)
Thanks again for the info Mike, just let me know about the October /
December issue thing.
Cheers,
James Drysdale.
Mike Willmon wrote:
> There is an excellent article that I used way back in 1984 when I built
> myself a recumbent bicycle. AC Gross, C.R. Kyle and DJ
> Malewicki, "The Aerodynamics of Human-Powered Land Vehicles", Scientific
> American, V. 249, pp. 142-152 December 1983
>
> It talks about all the forces involved in moving a human power land vehicle.
> One graph in particular plots speed with the Human
> HP required to move the bicycle. A good athelete can produce 1HP for about
> 30 seconds. And your 750W motor is right in line with
> a 1HP power plant. The graph indicates that a "Full Racing Crouch" with 1Hp
> input could do roughly 36 mph. A recumbent with 1Hp
> slightly better at 38 mph, and a full fairing Vector shape (3 wheel) could do
> ~65mph with 1Hp.
>
> Another useful table lists 20 different bicycle configurations and gives
> aerodynamic forces and rolling resistances at 20 mph.
> Its useful for relative comparisons between different bike shapes and
> configurations.
>
> Now I have a fairly decent photo copy made back in 1984 (has my chicken
> scratch on some of the drawings) that I can scan and
> forward to you if you can't find it online. I tried to find it online one
> time and had no luck. But as luck would have it the
> "Free" bin at my local library had a load of Scientific American magazines
> they were unloading. After years of searching for an
> original copy, it had been dropped into my lap......and now I can't find what
> I did with it in my house.
>
> Overall though it has some really good info that you could apply to putting a
> small electric motor in a bicycle.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of James Drysdale
>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 12:49 AM
>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> Cc: James Drysdale
>> Subject: electric bicycle - need help
>>
>>
>> SORRY!! THIS MESSAGE IS NOW TEXT.
>> BAH! THOUGHT I SET THE LIST AS TEXT-ONLY.
>> HOW EMBARRASSING.
>>
>>
>> G'day all,
>>
>> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
>> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
>>
>> But I need some help.
>> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
>> give me.
>>
>> Power = (force * displacement) / time
>> Force = mass * acceleration
>> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
>>
>> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
>> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
>>
>> Information I do have......
>> mass = 120kg
>> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
>>
>> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
>> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
>> achieve with a 750W motor.
>>
>> This is the motor in question!!!
>> https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
>> >From this page.
>> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
>> 36volt
>> 750watt
>> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
>>
>> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
>> said, I need help.
>> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
>> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
>> like that.....
>>
>>
>> Cheers all,
>> James Drysdale.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could have a simple logic tree that comes from the fan switch.
Determine the speed of the motor based on your program below and input
from the fan switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 23:39
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
It is the high pressure switch.
But I had an idea for a controller.
A simple PIC program
at on signal
rpm = 1000
rate = 10
lastrate = 10
do while on
if high pressure switch then { rpm = rpm - 10; increment =
increment + (lastrate - rate)} //or something like this
sleep 10 seconds
rate = rate + 1
rpm = rpm + $increment
increment =
send rpm to PWM out
end loop
So it increases the rpm slowly until the high pressure switch is made,
but instead of disconnecting the clutch or turning off the motor it
decrements the value that determines the rpm. the number of 10 second
loops is counted and the longer it takes to hit the switch a second
time, the smaller the increment.
kinda simple and crude, and this is just off the top of my head.
Even simpler, given a 2 speed motor and a relay with a build in timer.
On switch to timed relay defaulting to high on the motor.
When we hit the high pressure switch, we active the relay.
This drops back to reduced speed until the timer expires.
I have seen these with a knob on top for manual adjustment, If that can
be remote mounted on the dash then ocasioal adjustments can be made.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jack,
A plumbing and heating supply company has any type of pump you want. I used
a standard pumps, fans, heater cores, relays and some contactors that are
all rated at 120 vac 60 hz that run off the main battery pack or even off a
single deep cycle marine 12 volt battery using a DC-AC inverter. You only
need about 100 watt inverter to run just a 0.5 amp pump.
The pump I use is a very small brass pump that you can hold in your hand and
close your fingers around it, is rated for 6 gallons per minute with a head
of 6 feet, meaning it will raise a fluid 6 feet above the pump. These are
TACO pumps which are normally use in plumbing and heating systems.
I use this same type of pump for my floor radiant heating system. I like
the 120 VAC units. It only draws 0.5 amps running. If it was a 12 volt
pump, it would draw (120/12)x0.5 = 5 amps. This is what the amp draw on a
12 volt battery side of a inverter.
If taken off 120 VDC battery pack and inverted, it will be about 0.5 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: Pump for Water Cooling
> I've added water cooling to my sailboat outboard motor. I am trying to
> setup the water pump for it.
> I thought of just pumping water from the lake/sea, but it seems hard to
> get a quiet pump that pulls up the water 5-feet, so my new approach is
> to recirculate water from a 3-gallon converter gas can and put a pump
> inside the tank. This makes it quiet. I have the in-tank electric fuel
> pump out of my Fiero, and wanted to use it, seems to work well and is
> quiet. But I'm sure it will rust if its in just water. Can I use
> antifreeze to prevent the rust? If not, other pump suggestions?
> thanks, Jack
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There were some threads on here a few years back about modifying a motor
by shaving it down. If I remember right the motor turned out to be a
dog. Check the archives for motor modifications.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kaido Kert
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:52
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Motor weight
On 6/29/07, Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If this heavy shell were not needed as part of the magnetic path, the
> manufactures would already be making it of thinner (and/or lighter)
> material.
That is true for motors sold for mobile applications where weight
matters. Most of various kinds of the electric motors sold are for
stationary applications, which in some cases even benefit from heavy
construction.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Peter,
Yeah, last time I checked the local law, powered bicycles could only
legally put out a maximum of 200W.
But I'm also planning a semi-large trip (one-way 1600 km / 994 miles) in
December.
As in, long lonely country roads, so it's not like I'll be using it to
speed through school zones like a dickhead.
Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
Really? I thought it was the *square* of the speed. Glad you mentioned
that. It's good to be proven wrong sometimes.
You and the other bloke Mike have been quite helpful.
Thanks.
Regards,
James Drysdale.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well, I assume you are aware that such a bicycle won't be legal on the roads?
>
> Now that we have that niggling detail out of the way. Bicycles have
> pretty bad aerodynamics (compared to other vehicles).
> Not much of an issue at 20-30kph, but significant at 80 kph.
>
> 750W will be good up to perhaps 50-60kph on flat level ground with no
> wind. Of course getting to this speed will take a while, though
> acceleration from 0-25kph should be quite brisk.
> Note most human beings can put out almost 750W for a very breif time (less
> than a minute?)
> The average human can put out about 100 watts for an hour or so, a very
> fit person can produce 200-250 watts for an hour or so.
> It takes roughly 200 watts to go 30 kph on flat ground with no wind.
> Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
>
> Getting up to 80kph will require at least twice and probably three times
> as much. Figure at least 2,000 watts.
>
>
>> G'day all,
>>
>> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
>> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
>>
>> But I need some help.
>> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
>> give me.
>>
>> Power = (force * displacement) / time
>> Force = mass * acceleration
>> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
>>
>> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
>> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
>>
>> Information I do have......
>> mass = 120kg
>> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
>>
>> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
>> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
>> achieve with a 750W motor.
>>
>> This is the motor in question!!!
>> https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
>> >From this page.
>> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
>> 36volt
>> 750watt
>> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
>>
>> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like I
>> said, I need help.
>> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
>> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
>> like that.....
>>
>>
>> Cheers all,
>> James Drysdale.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need to apologize to the list this was inflamatory
remarks based on keyboard emotion. I had just got
done reading another auto forums account of EPA
regulations without really looking further into it.
The EPA reg *proposed* for this year that is to take
into effect over the next couple of years. It *has
not* affected any shops at this time as I had so
stated. But it does only allow sale of automotive
paint to professional certified operators, kinda like
what happened to freon.
--- lyle sloan wrote:
> The time of DIY spray paint booths at home is coming
> to a close. EPA regulations have come into effect
> restricting the sale of many automotive paints to
> the
> at-home-builder but only to licensed paint shops and
> dealers. This has put a major dent in the custom
> motorcycle and custum car businesses. In effect
> many
> talented artists and small businesses like
> pop-and-son
> shops have been hit hard. I dont have to tell you
> that many custom shops have derision toward this.
>
> Now the thinning of rustoleum and roll-on-paint
> technique looks interesting posted in this months
> hodrodandcustoms, but the most that can be achieved
> is
> a satin finish.
>
>
>
> --- mperry wrote:
>
> > Why not just spray it yourself? It'll cost about
> > $150, but you can get a
> > decent paint job at home.
> >
> > BTW, I'd be interested where you'd get enough
> paint
> > for $100. House paint,
> > right?
> >
> > On Thu, June 21, 2007 8:32 am, Brian Pikkula
> wrote:
> > > Since the majority of our EVs are > 10 years
> old,
> > the paint on them
> > > isn't like it used to be. However, I have a
> hard
> > time justifying spending
> > > $2k for something that will not propel my EV.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you
> sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can build a rotating machine, without a metal casing as in a motor.
This is done by using just using a large amount of copper windings wind
around a plastic or fiberglass core.
To give you a ideal what it would take to build a 30 hp motor-generation
machine, it would take a coil form about 4 foot in diameter and 12 feet
high. Now we turn on 3 million feet of No. 6 AWG solid copper wire. The
wire coil size on this coil form will now be about 12 feet in diameter in a
four foot high section.
We are now up to 8 tons of weight.
Apply about 100 volts DC to this coil which has a ohms resistance of 1000
ohms, will have a estimate ampere of 100/1000 = 0.1 amp.
The magnetic flux off tons of copper atoms will generate a magnetic force
between 25 and 30 hp motor.
There is a company in Sweden that builds plastic core motors that the fields
are wound this way which is a brush less motors, but are smaller using a
higher voltage. They are now building eight motors to turn four aircraft
props for a aircraft that is to attempt a non-stop around the world attempt.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 11:10 PM
Subject: Motor weight
> just throwing it outthere since most might well know but isn't the
> typical dc motors grossly overweight?
> cast iron housing that looks like it could hold 1000bar pressure.
> given how small the shaft diameter is, isn't that hideously oversized?
> couldn't the weight be halved easily?
>
> Dan
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC compressor is supposed to take 5 HP or 4 kW of power off the engine to
function. according to wikipedia.
At 156 volts, that's about 25 amps when loaded.
Wow, that's a chunk of power, though I don't know the on/off cycle time of
the compressor till I actually run it.
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I promise I remember reading that someplace, but its possible I
mis-remembered it?
There were 3 magazines in May 2007 that discussed electric vehicles...
Motor Trend, Popular Science, Popular Mechanics.... (I think those are the
3) there may have been more.
I thought for sure I had read "batteries + cooling assembly was 1000
pounds"...
Maybe not...
Thanks for the correction....
Ed Cooley
"Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/28/2007 14:46
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
cc
Subject
RE: I have an IDEA!
On the discovery channel Tesla motors said their battery pack only
weighed 412 pounds. Where did you get 1000? The whole car weighs only
1600.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 14:42
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: I have an IDEA!
There are over 7000 laptop batteries in the Tesla, that weighs about
1000 pounds.
They use a liquid cooling system to keep the laptop batteries from
overheating.
Mike - is that $29k calculation about what other companies are charging
for their stuff?
Last I heard, Valence wanted $1200 for a single automotive lithium ion
battery (and you'd need at least 12, never mind the charging/balancing
and other maintenance equipment)
I think I'll let the folks with more development sponsors do the
development work.
Then again, who knows? in 5 years, Phoenix Motors may have a car for
sale at the 30k mark, which is affordable for some people (um, not me).
You could probably pick up batteries from one of those (wrecked)
vehicles for a reasonable price....
Ed Cooley
Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/27/2007 23:39
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc
Subject
RE: I have an IDEA!
Those are only 2.4 Amp hour packs. Four in series would give you a 144V
2.4AH pack. For a typical size conversion if you assume
you want 15KWh pack, you might get away less because of the weight
reduction, but say 15KWh. You would need 43 parallel strings of
4-series batteries. At $169 each that would be 43 x 4 x $169 = $29,068.
Thats not be cheap, but it would work. ;-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Joseph T.
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:06 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: I have an IDEA!
>
>
> I just got this idea and it probably won't work!
>
> How about I take 4 36 volt DeWalt battery packs and use them in an
> electric car!Then, I'll program the charger not to charge them all the
> way to 100%. I'll need to either have a battery balancer or tend to
> each cell to make sure that they are balanced.
>
> Can someone please point out to me why this won't work?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
comment if you know better.
I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I had
an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
polishers.
Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to skyrocket
(racketeering?) NO.
------------------------------------
He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
------------------------------------
I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent would
open the market for competition.
Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
whereas it used to be restricted.
Defies logic?
We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor polishers:
LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but I'm
glad there's more battery chemistry development.
If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr Deka's?
with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in the
battery market loop?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
