EV Digest 7009

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many,
      many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: conversion  question
        by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Catch phrase for the EVDL
        by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: conversion  question
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Catchphrase for the EVDL
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Doing Something (Was: Catch phrase for the EVDL)
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Ideal conversion candidate?  Aussies are Lucky.
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Dead Batteries
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: One way to promote EV's
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: conversion  question
        by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th
        by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
        by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
        by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Wire Size
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Wire Size
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Optimum Animal Controller Frequency
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
        by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Important NEDRA Record Rules Updates
        by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Why are you feeding the troll?
He has made it abundantly clear that he has no real intention to actually
build an EV, all he wants to do is stir up discord.

> On 7/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> hehe ok. that's terrible. curious human stupidity A123 exhibits (that's
>> probably gonna come back to haunt me that I told the truth)
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong! A123 pricing is EXACTLY as it should be. Why
> would they give somebody like me a huge discount for such a small
> order? Particularly when the application is largely unknown to them
> and it has an increased potential to do brand damage when compared to
> supplying say the RC market.
>
> Us backyard EVers are a very small cottage niche playing with very big
> toys. We are more risk with only a small return for them. The only way
> WE are going to get a heavy discount is to order very large numbers
> (maybe 100,000+ as Bill Dube suggests) AND show that we are going to
> use them appropriately, i.e. mounting, protection, BMS etc.
>
> As Lee Hart and Bill Dube have suggested; get some cells, play and
> learn. Hence my purchase of the DeWalt packs and charger.
>
> Shaun
>
> www.electric-echo.com
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,

The Evette weighs about a 1000lbs, it will hold up to 40 orbitals at about 
40lbs a piece, about 1600lbs, thats about a 1.6/1 radio, that should give me 
well over a 100mi a charge at 40mph. Yout thoughts?

Tom Sines 

-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 9:43 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: conversion  question
>
>There is no "Best" ratio.  It depends on your goals.  Most folks just load
>up as many batteries as will fit without going over the GVWR.  Then again,
>a lot of folks just ignore the GVWR and just put as much on as will fit.
>
>If you want to be scientific about it, establish goals (range, speed,
>performance, etc.) and then figure out how many batteries you need to meet
>your goals, then see if the vehicle can handle that amount of weight.
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I have a question, what is best ratio of a conversion car without
>> batteries, to batteries,  all other things being equal?  For instance,
>> 2000lbs of car without batteries, to 1000lbs of batteries,  would be a
>> 2/1 ratio.
>>
>> Tom Sines
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
>wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
>legalistic signature is void.
>


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok let's start with the choice of Donor.
Choosing a car simply because it's free is often a bad choice.
Image for a moment, you have a "free car", the dashboard is cracked, the
upholstry is worn, it has a dented and rusty fender (not saying this is
your car, just giving an example)
You then spend $8-$10,000 converting it to an EV.  You do a great job, it
runs awsome and a stranger walking up can't tell the difference between
this and the car you started with.

You show it off to your friends because you are proud of your
accomplishment.  And what do you friends see?  A cracked dashboard, worn
upholstry and a dented and rusted fender!  They look at you like you're
nuts, why are you proud of this beater.

Sure you can replace the dash and the upholstry, fix the fender and
repaint the car, but how much will that cost?  What kind of car could you
have purchased for that money?

Start with a car in good condition.  Pick one that has readily available
parts, at least for the parts that remain (brakes, suspension, etc)

Secondly, I'm sure you've noticed that you live on the cold end of the
world.  With ICEs you have tons of waste heat available for heating your
car.  EVs have basically zero waste heat available.  This means that the
heat usually has to come from your battery pack.  It takes a LOT of energy
to heat a car, the bigger the car the more energy it takes.  This means a
reduction in range.
For this reason it's best to select a vehicle with as small a cabin space
as possible.  The smallest cabins come on small single cab pickups and
sports cars.

You want the maximum range possible, and you have hills.  This means you
either want the lightest vehicle possible, or the biggest battery pack
possible, or both.  Hills take huge ammouts of energy to climb, heavy cars
take double huge ammounts of energy.

Mid 80's small trucks tend to be light weight AND can carry lots of
batteries.  Aerodynamics suck, but that doesn't play a big part in around
town driving.
Especially look at the old Toyota 1 ton pickups.

Saving your cars from the junkyard isn't a viable excuse.  Any car you
convert will be saved from the junkyard.  It's also possible that you can
trade a running Mercedes for a non-running pickup.

If you still want to convert the Mercedes, no problem.  Just don't go into
this thnking that you have no choice.

Regen with series wound motors is pretty much a non player.  You can do it
with SepEx motors, but they (and the required controllers) an be hard to
find and are probably expensive.
Brushless DC is not a player either, most of the available EV size ones
make AC setups look cheap.

Don't get hung up on Regen.  It might not make much of a difference.
You can NOT recover ANY of the energy used to move from point A to point
B.  That was used up to overcome friction, etc.  All you can recover is
the energy used to change the energy level of the vehicle.  I.e. the
energy added to accelerate the vehicle (but not to overcome friction, etc)
and/or the energy used to change the Altitude of the vehile (climb hills)

Plus you can only recover a fraction of /that/ energy.  If your
controller/motor/drivetrain is 75% efficient (typical of most converions),
then 25% of your energy is irretrievably lost before it ever gets to the
road.  When employing regen the same losses apply AGAIN when going from
the road to the batteries.  Plus the batteries have a charge efficiency,
i.e. some of the energy you put in is lost charging the pack.  Best case
is another 10% due to charge efficiency.

So 75% makes it to the road, 75% of that makes it back, and 90% of THAT is
what you end up with in the batteries.
.75*.75*.9 ~= 50%
So best case, you get 50% of the energy back, but not 50% of all the
energy you use, 50% of just the extra energy used for acceleration/hills.
If acceleration/hills account for 10% of the energy used in your trip, the
MOST you can get back is 5% of the total energy used.

If you do a lot of stop and go driving, or climb a lot of hills, then
regen might make a significant difference.  Otherwise it's hardly worth
the extra effort/cost.
If you have a series of hills (some folks call them rollers) then you will
probably come out ahead by coasting down the hill and picking up speed to
help you climb the next hill.  This is sort of like regen without the
conversion losses.

Final thought, EVERYTHING wears out eventually.
In EV motor controllers, the low ESR caps will probably wear out before
the FETs/IGBTs, but even that is unlikely to happen for at least 10 years
or so.  Controllers do break occasionally, but this is usually because the
owners are running them right up to their limits.  Running a controller
below it's maximum ratings will put less stress on it and /probably/
result in a longer life (if you want a guarantee, buy a toaster)

> So here's the new and revised criteria in order of importance. The car
> must be:
>
>  - Minimal cost. We want to spend as little as possible while still
> retaining functionality and safety. A real "no frills" car.
>  - Last a reasonable period of time for the investment to "pay off"
>  - Able to handle a variety of climatic conditions, especially cold
> Canadian winters. (-30C nominal)
>  - Maximum range possible. Acceleration does not really matter as long
> as it's comparable to the slowest ICE cars.
>  - Be able to attain 110km/h. (Highway speeds)
>  - Avoid the use of CNC or machine shop tools whenever possible.
>
> And you guys can probably already guess, but my thesis is:
> ---
> Designing and building a fully electric vehicle intended for
> intra-city driving without access to a personal machine shop is
> possible and it is economically viable.
> ---
> I will thoroughly document this project and include every last detail.
> Every last drawing and calculation, be it from a napkin or a CAD
> diagram, will be posted and accompanied by a write-up.
>
> My intention for this project is to serve as a guidepost for people
> who have limited access to machine shops and/or are hesitant on making
> the investment on an electric car. I will include cost-benefit
> calculations and life cycle maintenance analysis to justify the use of
> an EV.
>
> So. Most of you guys are probably thinking that I'm crazy and will
> never pull through due to lack of time, money and everything else. I
> realize that this is a huge task, and I will also be fast-tracking my
> degree for the next 2 years and time will be short. We'll have to see.
> I plan to play a large role in research and documentation, while my
> dad and his students mainly perform the shop work 400 km away from me.
> This should allow me to work during my spare time (if I have any) and
> force me to remain committed to the project. Hopefully, with a lot of
> help from the EVDL, we will some how be able to complete this project.
>
> -----------------------
>
> Now, after that rather long-winded write-up, I'll get down to
> business... This is where I really need your help guys.
>
> Given the new criteria, AC is out of the question. DC is my only
> resort, but I am worried about the lack of regenerative braking.
>
> The car, for the moment, is the heavy 260e/300e. There's 2 reasons I'm
> hesitant about using a different body.
>
> 1.  A new donor car would mean that the existing car gets sent to the
> junk yard. Peter, I realize that we would be spending more on a motor
> and the range would be diminished, but I will calculate these factors
> into the cost-benefit calculations, and the mileage calculations.
>
> 2.  Buying a very smaller donor car could also mean that the results
> would be less than typical. Numbers obtained from converting a small
> car may not scale up to predict numbers with larger cars, but I would
> think that if a larger car can meet the criteria, a smaller car can do
> it for cheaper. If anything, the results from using the 300e and the
> 260e would mean that the project is even more economically viable than
> the numbers that we calculate.
>
> I'm really trying to fit regenerative braking in because we're using
> the mercedes frames and we're expending more energy than a smaller car
> when accelerating the vehicle and the car would also be in traffic
> jams very often (start/stop). Ideally I would like to get some of it
> back in electricity instead of generating heat. Since the AC motors
> are out of our reach, I was wondering if there was any way to get
> reliable DC regen into our design. Is it true that brushless DC motors
> are prohibitively expensive? I've read about regen using a series
> wound motor, but it seems very unreliable. Is this true? Complexity
> should not really be an issue, although it usually means less
> reliability.
>
> That's the only real issue I'm trying to wrap my head around at the
> moment. I'm considering using used factory motor controllers (?) from
> ebay, but I'm not sure if that would be a good idea, since they're not
> generally available in steady supply (not beneficial to the project,
> I'm trying for readily available and easy) and I'd have to find a good
> DC/AC inverter (efficiency + size). Does this sound like a bad idea?
> Also, do MOFSETs and IGBTs wear out?
>
> Once I get these basic things figured out, I'll do a rough cost
> analysis and figure out if it is necessary to cut further costs or to
> go with a different body. The school year doesn't start till
> September, so I have a bit of time to plan everything out. Don't
> worry, I'll document everything and eventually get a website set up.
> Computer science students get free web page hosting or something.
>
> Thank you everyone very much for your time and I really look forward
> to hearing your feedback.
>
> Matt
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Knowledge = Power"


(Is "power" a globally generic term for electricity or is it just an
Aussie thing?...he says, uncomfortably...)

Shaun

www.electric-echo.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, think of how many batteries it could hold if it had four wheels!
Just joshing you. ;-)

My thoughts are that, if a person has the inclination/ability, the best
EVs are ones designed from the ground up to be EVs.
After that, what is "best" depends on your goals.  If your goal is to drop
off four kid at school on your way to work, then the Evette might not be
"best", you're probably looking for a minivan.

On the other hand, if it's just one or two people, and you want
super-cool, low-speed, fly-by-wire, handling in a freeway capable vehicle,
then the Evette is probably the best choice availble.

Then again, if you want to be able to carry a 1/2 dozen sheets of plywood,
a bunch of 2x4s and 7 sacks of concrete, then a pickup is probably "Best"

If all you ever drive is 5 miles to town and back, then having a pack that
is capable of going 100 miles is probably a waste of money since it will
most likely die of old age. Besides, why carry around all that extra
weight?  All it's going to do is increase your wear and tear, stopping
distance, and your energy requirements to go the 10 miles.

There is no "Best" vehicle that meets everyones requirements and there is
no "Best" ratio of pack size to vehicle weight.

These things are highly individual and should be based on the individual's
needs/wants.

> Hi Peter,
>
> The Evette weighs about a 1000lbs, it will hold up to 40 orbitals at about
> 40lbs a piece, about 1600lbs, thats about a 1.6/1 radio, that should give
> me well over a 100mi a charge at 40mph. Yout thoughts?
>
> Tom Sines
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 9:43 PM
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: conversion  question
>>
>>There is no "Best" ratio.  It depends on your goals.  Most folks just
>> load
>>up as many batteries as will fit without going over the GVWR.  Then
>> again,
>>a lot of folks just ignore the GVWR and just put as much on as will fit.
>>
>>If you want to be scientific about it, establish goals (range, speed,
>>performance, etc.) and then figure out how many batteries you need to
>> meet
>>your goals, then see if the vehicle can handle that amount of weight.
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have a question, what is best ratio of a conversion car without
>>> batteries, to batteries,  all other things being equal?  For instance,
>>> 2000lbs of car without batteries, to 1000lbs of batteries,  would be a
>>> 2/1 ratio.
>>>
>>> Tom Sines
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> PeoplePC Online
>>> A better way to Internet
>>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>>wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
>>legalistic signature is void.
>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not clever enough to make my own. I vote for Mike Chancey's:

"If they won't build them, then we will."

Rich A.

_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Dan you've shown up out of nowhere and contributed nothing but pot-stirring since you got here. Is your life really so empty that the only productive thing you can do is spend time evoking reaction from people online? I don't know who to be angrier at; You, or myself for finally snapping and feeding you.

Your statement below is such bullshit. Who are you to judge? This list is full of tangible, physical accomplishment from "daily drivers" to White Zombie.

The fact that you haven't been banned yet speaks volumes about the moderator's patience and generosity. I'm hoping that patience will soon be exhausted. To everyone else, I apologize.

Rich A.

Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 00:33:49 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Catch phrase for the EVDL
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

how about: we make catch phrases rather than actually doing something :)

_________________________________________________________________
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!  http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just spent a couple weeks down under and noticed that Australia has a
large number of what are probably the perfect conversion candidates.
I think they call them "Utes".

For us Yanks, imagine a modern day version of an El Camino.  Small pickup
trucks with car like styling; low to the ground, small frontal area,
aerodynamic shape.  They even have extended cab versions.

I don't know what kind of load capabilty they have, but it's got to be
better than your average car.





-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom,

Does your pack voltmeter spike during the final phase? If so, I think it's working right. Also, when the charge is complete, what is the difference in voltage between cells or batteries? Is it a lot?

Are you saying you're getting bad equalization, or that the batteries aren't being fully charged?

I guess what I'm driving at is, I'm trying to help figure out if your charger isn't finishing properly or if your batteries are tired and not accepting a charge equally.

The Zivan is supposed to prevent gassing of batteries with it's charging method. I've had my batteries since March and I haven't added water yet. I just checked them yesterday and the plates are all still covered with plenty of fluid. At the final phase, my voltage is so high that you think they'd be boiling over, but when I pop the caps, there's only a few bubbles happening. I do get the hydrogen stink in the car though so I know they're well charged.

I'm not exactly sure how much voltage deviation between batteries is acceptable but when I checked, mine were never more than .02 volts apart. Hopefully someone will speak up on that part.

Rich A.

Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Dead Batteries
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:49:38 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        format=flowed;
        charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=response
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Richard,

The lights are all operating as should.  It just worries me that I am not
using hardly any water.  It is kind of like what my dad used to say about
ICE cars.  If it does not use a little oil then that is the time to worry.

I feel that I am not getting a good equalization.

When the new battery charger comes I will find out

Tom

_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!  http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,

Yes, 8775 watts. Until now, I did not know how to calculate watt-hours per mile. :)

Thanks for that,

Rich A.

From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:26:22 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: One way to promote EV's
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body

On 9 Jul 2007 at 1:20, Peter VanDerWal wrote:

Except that he is only going 33 mph, and the normal wh/mile figures
assumes spending some time at 50-60 mph.

Nearly 9kwh to go 33mph seems a little high to me.   Even my pickup truck
doesn't use that much power at 30-35mph.


> 8,775 W / 33 MPH = 266 Watthour per mile.

This is puzzling.  You can't divide Watt-hours by miles per hour and get
Watt-hours per mile.  WH * H/M = (WH^2)/M

Or do you mean 8775W, rather than Wh?


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,

Good point, People are making the batteries fit the car, they need to make the 
car fit the batteries.  At this time, we are building a 4seater jeep type car 
for the average man or woman,  It will be less expensive than the average 
conversion.  Probably much less.  Speaking of fly by wire, airplanes do it, why 
not drive by wire?

Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 10, 2007 9:13 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: conversion  question
>
>Wow, think of how many batteries it could hold if it had four wheels!
>Just joshing you. ;-)
>
>My thoughts are that, if a person has the inclination/ability, the best
>EVs are ones designed from the ground up to be EVs.
>After that, what is "best" depends on your goals.  If your goal is to drop
>off four kid at school on your way to work, then the Evette might not be
>"best", you're probably looking for a minivan.
>
>On the other hand, if it's just one or two people, and you want
>super-cool, low-speed, fly-by-wire, handling in a freeway capable vehicle,
>then the Evette is probably the best choice availble.
>
>Then again, if you want to be able to carry a 1/2 dozen sheets of plywood,
>a bunch of 2x4s and 7 sacks of concrete, then a pickup is probably "Best"
>
>If all you ever drive is 5 miles to town and back, then having a pack that
>is capable of going 100 miles is probably a waste of money since it will
>most likely die of old age. Besides, why carry around all that extra
>weight?  All it's going to do is increase your wear and tear, stopping
>distance, and your energy requirements to go the 10 miles.
>
>There is no "Best" vehicle that meets everyones requirements and there is
>no "Best" ratio of pack size to vehicle weight.
>
>These things are highly individual and should be based on the individual's
>needs/wants.
>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> The Evette weighs about a 1000lbs, it will hold up to 40 orbitals at about
>> 40lbs a piece, about 1600lbs, thats about a 1.6/1 radio, that should give
>> me well over a 100mi a charge at 40mph. Yout thoughts?
>>
>> Tom Sines
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jul 9, 2007 9:43 PM
>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>Subject: Re: conversion  question
>>>
>>>There is no "Best" ratio.  It depends on your goals.  Most folks just
>>> load
>>>up as many batteries as will fit without going over the GVWR.  Then
>>> again,
>>>a lot of folks just ignore the GVWR and just put as much on as will fit.
>>>
>>>If you want to be scientific about it, establish goals (range, speed,
>>>performance, etc.) and then figure out how many batteries you need to
>>> meet
>>>your goals, then see if the vehicle can handle that amount of weight.
>>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I have a question, what is best ratio of a conversion car without
>>>> batteries, to batteries,  all other things being equal?  For instance,
>>>> 2000lbs of car without batteries, to 1000lbs of batteries,  would be a
>>>> 2/1 ratio.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Sines
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> PeoplePC Online
>>>> A better way to Internet
>>>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>>>junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>>> I
>>>wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
>>>legalistic signature is void.
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>If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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Any idea on the date when they are going to show/broadcast it?


----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th



--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I just got confirmation that the folks from the
Canadian Discovery
Channel program "Daily Planet" are coming to
Portland International
Raceway this coming weekend to cover the NEDRA race
on July 14th.

Good news for NEDRA and all that compete.

Hey Bill, all

Great news for EV's in general 8^)  I'm really looking
forward to seeing Killacycle tear up some track and
break into the 7's 8^o  I've wanted to see it run in
person long before doing any motor work and I just
can't wait!

I'll have your extra leads and I got a new order of
comm stones in so any new brushes needed to be
installed can be given a good seating.

I'll be bring out a bunch of motor paraphernalia
ranging from Mike Willmons 9's, my baby Siamese6
disassembled for people to touch and feel, and a pile
of "hall of flame" remnants of races past, and some
spare parts just in case.

Wayland told me just a day or two ago that there
should be 4 media companies that'll be there, this
might make 5?

Hopefully lots of EV'ers come out to support the EVent
and root you guys into what should be the quickest EV
1/4 miles ever run 8^o  PIR and it's crowds just love
the EV's so you better be prepared to go home horse
from all the talking you'll be doing, LMAO!

Anyway Bill, I remember you catching me looking up
Killacycles skirt at Joliet looking at her motors 8^o
Getting to work on them and now getting to watch it
run is kinda like a "super freak" moment for me 8^)

You guys have a safe trip over, see you at the Wayland
Juice bar.

Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric



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Saw one at a local motorcycle shop - 

"don't be a pump chump"

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Reminds me of things to put on your license plate frames.

  Mine reads "You have just been passed by an electric car"
 
  I had "it takes ~12kwh to refine a gallon of gas, why bother" and "if
you can read this, time to plug me in" made as alternates

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I like "WATT Power", "AMPlitude", or my personal
favorite for my cycle conversion "SBD" in the STP
lettering.

--- Jeff Shanab wrote:

> Reminds me of things to put on your license plate
> frames.
> 
>   Mine reads "You have just been passed by an
> electric car"
>  
>   I had "it takes ~12kwh to refine a gallon of gas,
> why bother" and "if
> you can read this, time to plug me in" made as
> alternates
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's 
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. 
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222

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Another thought on the donor car.   You've expressed a desire to do
something can inspire/show others that it's easy (or at least
possible).  Therefore, it should be something common that people would
have easy access to, and would want to drive.  I don't know what is
common in your area -- because it varies all over.  If I were doing it
here, I'd probably select a subaru loyale wagon.... because there's a
gazillion of them here.  Relatively small car, a little bigger than a
VW rabbit.  And you can get a running donor for under $1,000 in good
shape, or under $300 if you want a junker.   And most are 4wd which is
not very ideal....  But take the VW rabbit -- a car you can already
buy a complete conversion kit for about $6500 or so... (plus
batteries).   Not as ideal as you might think, because around here
it's hard to FIND a rabbit to convert.  I went back east recently and
everyone there drove american made sedans...  bizarre to me because
that's something that few people out here would even consider buying.
But they are next to detroit there.  So.... look at what's common in
your area, easily available in still fairly good looking donor cars
for decent prices.  I think that'll have the most impact, when people
see an electric car that's a model that they see all the time anyway.
The electric car part becomes less strange

Z

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Howdy Folk's,

I've seen recommendations in commuter cars for 2/0 cable size and that seams like quite an overkill. It's needed from the controller to the motor where current is typically double that of battery amps but not for general wiring unless you're racing. I took apart a Bombardier which was wired in #6 and bumped it up to #4. Anyway I've always wired my highway cars at #2 since there is on average 30' of wire cable and the weight/cost and difficulty of wireing with 2/0 really isn't justified for a nominal 150A average highway current which the electric code rates #2 for.

From the Howard Sam's Electronic Table/Formulae per 1000 feet for 150A:

2/0= .07793 ohms, for 30' = .0023379ohms .35V drop, 53W loss
1/0= .09825 ohms for 30' = .0029475ohms .44V drop, 66W loss
#1 = .1239 ohms for 30' = .003717ohms .56V drop, 84W loss
#2 = .1563 ohms for 30' = .004689ohms .70V drop 105W loss

So for using #2 you get 50W more loss than hassling with 2/0, hardly worth the trouble. You would get more loss by sticking your hand out the window.

BTW, I didn't see the results from the timing advance table, RPM's vs degrees advance. Is there info on that? I have mine set at 7 degrees advance running at 4k rpm's on the freeway and was curious how much percentage torque that takes off starting from 0 rpm's.

This hotmail email won't let me reply to an existing email, have to start a new one. Is there a webmail service that handles the digest better?

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark

_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!  http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
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Overcharging is not the problem. Dryout is the problem. Dryout is a symptom
of overcharging. Voltage limiters reduce overcharging and reduce the dryout
problem. No, you do not need equalizers, balancers, or regulators. They
allow you to cycle the pack faster while reducing the potential for damage
caused by an overvoltage condition.

On flooded batteries.  Because you can always just add more water
before it gets below the plates.  But on AGM's or gels, you don't want
to be drying them at all....

Z

--- End Message ---
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gmail -- and don't do digests.  It'll automatically show everything in
threads so you can see the original and all the replys right next to
each other.  And it also lets you reply to emails (what kind of system
won't let you do that ??)


This hotmail email won't let me reply to an existing email, have to start a
new one.  Is there a webmail service that handles the digest better?

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Hi,

In looking at the hoopla surounding Tesla I'm curious if they don't follow the standard 3-year-cycle of a lot of techy companies do until a better/cheaper mousetrap comes up. With 6831 cells the reliability or MTBF will be dismal as well as the car is overpriced for the average buying public. The last article I saw stated that the chairman Eberhard doesn't have auto design experience. I've seen and been with quite a few 3-year-cycle companies, (larger than Tesla) they tend to make great initial claims, get investors, hire a bunch of stary eyed folk's and then things fizzle as they can't get their costs/price down to compete with conventional technology or the customers/investors discover that a lot of their claims are balony.

Best Regards,
Mark

_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com

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Hi,

I set my last controller off laminatyion flabulation resonance around 1500 hertz to keep road kill down and improve controller efficiency. I didn't hit a single bear,deer,muskrat,squirel,dog,cat or beaver in the ten year period with my Electro-Metro or E-jeep (Tracker).

With the ni-cad E-Porsche using the ye-ol Curtis PMC25 oiperating at 2kHz I notice that all the animals run out of the way but start chasing me.

I'm assuming that 1.5kHz would be better but is there an optimum animal dispersion frequency/chart where the animals won't follow you to work?

Have a road-kill-free day,
Mark in Roanoke, VA

_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507

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I often wonder the same thing, "Is this another
proto-HYPE?", but only time will tell.  The winds are
in their favor as with many other start-ups right now,
but lets see if they can maintain momentum and PRODUCE
a product.  I wish them the best.

--- Mark Hanson wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> In looking at the hoopla surounding Tesla I'm
> curious if they don't follow 
> the standard 3-year-cycle of a lot of techy
> companies do until a 
> better/cheaper mousetrap comes up.  With 6831 cells
> the reliability or MTBF 
> will be dismal as well as the car is overpriced for
> the average buying 
> public.  The last article I saw stated that the
> chairman Eberhard doesn't 
> have auto design experience.    I've seen and been
> with quite a few 
> 3-year-cycle companies, (larger than Tesla) they
> tend to make great initial 
> claims, get investors, hire a bunch of stary eyed
> folk's and then things 
> fizzle as they can't get their costs/price down to
> compete with conventional 
> technology or the customers/investors discover that
> a lot of their claims 
> are balony.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Mark
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> http://newlivehotmail.com
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for 
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  

--- End Message ---
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Shaun Williams wrote:
On 7/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
hehe ok. that's terrible. curious human stupidity A123 exhibits (that's
probably gonna come back to haunt me that I told the truth)

Wrong, wrong, wrong! A123 pricing is EXACTLY as it should be. Why
would they give somebody like me a huge discount for such a small
order?
Maybe because as it is they stifle EV progress greatly as opposed to fair prices which would make the EV community explode. a factor of 3 in pricing matters quite a bit. It's the difference between the faint glimmer EVs are now and a real EV revolution. these cells apparently really work. It's a simple fact that their stupidity in this matter means they are actively engaged in protecting combustion cars from EV progress.

Wayland is hoping to achieve a 10 second car with only 880 of these cells. think about how powerful an example it would be if every homebuilt EV could waste ferraris on the track. hundreds showing up on youtube. other than the overpriced zilla there isn't really anything exotic in his car and we might be able to fix the zilla expense too. plus two 8 inch motors. A123 pricing for bulk orders like 1-5000cells is very wrong. the very notion that they have to approve the use is an offense to the world. it's mindless primadonna attittude. Indeed it's awfully similar to what GM did with their EV1s

Fair pricing leads to mass sales, overpricing leads to no sales.

Dan

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Well Marcin
looking at the specs for the phet cells, they are half size, lower voltage (different chemistry?) incomparably poor discharge rates (4C as opposed to 60C!) and their specific energy is 30% worse. what could possibly lead you to think they are just as good??

Dan

Marcin Ciosek wrote:
I'm doing some comparison tests between A123 and PHET and we will see.


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Not sure if this was clear enough in my last message.

The NEDRA Race Form is only necessary if you are racing on your own.

The form is not necessary if you are racing at a NEDRA sanctioned event like the Wayland Invitational, the Nationals or the Power of DC because a NEDRA Board Member(s) is present at all NEDRA sanctioned events to record all that information.

The NEDRA Race Form provides the record keeper, who is NEDRA President Brian Hall, with all the necessary information about the vehicle, the track, the Class/Voltage Division and to ensure the vehicle passes safety inspection (inspector signature required) so he can accurately record it on the website.

 http://www.nedra.com/NEDRAraceform.html


Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com

On Jul 10, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 9, 2007 9:23:26 PM EDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Important NEDRA Record Rules Updates


Hello,

To accommodate our members who are racing at their local tracks and to expedite the process to get records up on the website we have made some updates to the process.

First news is that NEDRA members can now race at their local IHRA tracks in addition to NHRA tracks if they are going for a record.

Secondly, members who are going for a NEDRA Record and racing outside a NEDRA sanctioned event will need to fill out a "NEDRA Race Form" to be checked off and signed by the track inspection official before racing.

This form can be conveniently downloaded from the NEDRA Home Page under "Info for Racers." It is also available from the Class Rules Page or the Records Page.

So briefly, these are the requirements for NEDRA Members gunning for a record at their local tracks.

1) Track must be an IHRA or NHRA track
2) Vehicle owner and driver must be a NEDRA Member
3) NEDRA Race Form must be completed and signed off by the Inspection Official at the track 4) Make a copy of two time slips (the times must be within 1% of each other) from runs made on the same day. 5) Email a copy of the completed NEDRA Race Form and the time slips to Brian Hall at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

or snail mail to:
NEDRA Record Holders
3200 Dutton Ave #220
Santa Rosa, Ca 95407


Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com

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