EV Digest 7020
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) 72 volt dc to dc converter
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Another, fairer comparison
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: conversion question
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
by "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Short Range Battery Pack
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 72 volt dc to dc converter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: better battery option for AC Geo Metro?
by "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Blower on Motor
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zivan ICS 200 Avcon charging problem - solved!
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: better battery option for AC Geo Metro?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Blower on Motor
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Efficiency of lead acid batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Curtis 1221B - help!
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: New guy seeking knowledge
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: powering 12v cooling fan from pack voltage
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Curtis 1221B - help!
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: better battery option for AC Geo Metro?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: New guy seeking knowledge
by "patrick DonEgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
My 72 vplt sevcon dc to dc converter quit working, does anyone have a
good used one they want to sell?
How difficult is it to rebuild them?
Thanks,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is an official government sponsored program at Argonne Labs called GREET to measure exactly what you are all
talking about. I have started writing a piece about it, but the details are very complex, and its taking a long time.
just google GREET argonne should bring it up...
anyway the conclusion was highly optimized bio-diesel hybrid IIRC correctly was less polluting than a pure EV using
coal-fired electricity. Natural-gas->H2 fuel cell was too of course. Many other technologies/fuels were in the same
ballpark. I can't tell yet what parameters they used for each fuel ( and there are many) but it is truly a well to
wheels attempt at figuring out the cost.
Before you all blow a gasket, the reason the bio-diesel does better than EVs is that diesel and especially some kinds of
bio-diesel, take a lot less energy and less pollution than coal-fired power. Obviously if you use hydro or solar/wind or
natural gas to make electricity you'll get a different result. The study uses nationwide averages, rather than
state-by-state numbers AFAIK.
caveat- haven't crunched all the numbers yet, so read it yourself.
Lesson I take from it?
You are only as clean as your electrons.
gotta get existing coal plants cleaned up right away and focus on all new plants to minimize pollution. Nukes will help
but are many years out. I believe this could be seen as a political statement too.
John
GWMobile wrote:
The comparision has been done it the amount of pollutants released for
electric car power production is miniscule compared to automotive gas use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and Tom and all,
I have been half watching this Evette discussion.
Yea, Tom says it is fun to drive. Is it fun to drive
on a snow or ice covered road?
I have a zero turn radius mower. Two powered wheels,
independently by hydraulic. With two casters in
front. Handles great and is "fun" to drive. Well,
mowing always sucks. But anyway, last year I got a
little too close to the pond and one drive wheel ended
up in a 4 inch deep mud puddle. No way I could get
that sucker out of there. Aside from towing it. So,
I conclude, this type of drive is a real bummer if one
drive wheel gets stuck in mud or snow or ice. All you
can do is drive in circles until the tow truck
arrives. I had some thoughts of outfitting it with a
push blade for plowing snow off the driveway, but
decided it stays in the barn during the winter.
Jeff
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I did NOT say the Evette doesn't maneuver well at
> high speeds, I said it
> only has the "advantage" at low speeds. Plenty of
> four wheeled vehicle
> handle well at high speeds, have you never heard the
> term "Corners like
> it's on rails"?
>
> Even if it is super easy to park, people have been
> managing to park four
> wheeled cars for over a century now, so it's not a
> big advantage. Parking
> lots are designed for four wheeled vehicles. People
> even manage to
> parallel park them.
>
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > In your dreans. The EVette not only maneuvers
> at low speeds, it turns
> > very well at higher speeds as well. A reporter
> from the Palm Beach Post
> > took a ride in it and wrote " Gut wrenching turns
> ".Its not a little
> > easier to park, its a lot easier to park. If a
> conversion has 2400lbs of
> > batteries it most likely has at least 3000lbs of
> car,5400lbs total that
> > sounds more like a tank!
> >
> > Tom Sines T
> >
____________________________________________________________________________________
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are you located? Maybe I could help.
On 7/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Roland,
This is exactly the info i was lookign for. Gives me an idea of the rating
I need to look for. Does anyone have any ideas for surplus, cheap, used
batteries? Looking for high current capable batteries. I have called the
battery outlets already but maybe there are some cheap sources for small
12v batteries like a backup psu. Maybe an office supply place?
Paul
> Hello Paul,
>
> A heavy EV in the range of 6500 to 7000 lbs requires about 3.5 AH per mile
> average where a EV that weighs about 3000 lbs might be from 1.5 to 2.5 AH
> per mile.
>
> I can get my AH usage to about 2.5 AH per mile if I drive at 25 mph and
> double that at 50 mph or about 550 watts per mile.
>
> So lets say a 3000 lb EV gets 2.5 AH per mile average, if you have the
> right
> overall gear ratio of over 5.5:1, then for 10 miles, you will use about 25
> AH.
>
> You could use a 50 AH battery which you could go 10 miles discharging to
> 50%
> DOD which your batteries will last twice as long as if you took them to
> 80%
> DOD.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Short Range Battery Pack
>
>
>> You offered some great ideas. Instead of buying brand new batterries
>> just
>> to be destroyed by my lack of knowledge and experience I will look for
>> some used PSU batteries. My next question is "How many Ah's do I need
>> for
>> a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving conditions?"
>> Just looking for round numbers. Looking for 80% DOD I want the lowest Ah
>> that will do this but don't know where to start at. Maybe an average of
>> 50
>> mph. What might that Ah equate to in 48v?(I know my top speed will drop
>> drastically)
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion... 77 datsun 280z...
>> > 48v forklift motor... I want a short range EV with lots of pickup...
>> > I think I also want AGM's... I would like to know what is the
>> > cheapest pack I can put together with greater than 140v and range for
>> > 5 to 10 miles...
>>
>> > I don't want sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
>>
>> That is a formula for a very short battery life. If that is acceptable
>> (for example, you just want a car to race on weekends, then I would
>> suggest some cheap flooded combination marine/starting batteries. They
>> won't last long (maybe 100 cycles), but are cheap and will deliver the
>> high currents for a high "fun" factor.
>>
>> AGMs to do the same thing will cost 2-3 times more. They can last twice
>> as long *if* you use a good charger and BMS (battery management system).
>> If you use a cheap charger and no BMS, the AGMs will also die in 100-200
>> cycles.
>>
>> Perhaps the cheapest way to get low cost and still be able to draw high
>> currents for fast acceleration is to get *used* AGM batteries. The ones
>> that are used in large UPS power supplies are often automatically
>> replaced every 2-3 years, and available surplus for perhaps 1/2 to 1/4
>> of their cost new. You could use them with simple chargers and a very
>> primitive BMS. They would die quickly, but at least are cheap.
>>
>> A range of only 5-10 miles and fast driving means you are discharging
>> the batteries in perhaps 15 minutes at most. This is really the forte of
>> things like the BB600 nicad aircraft starting batteries. You can
>> sometimes find them surplus for very good prices. The downside is that
>> they require a *lot* of work to rejevante, install, and maintain. But if
>> you have lots of time and little money, they would make a very fast
>> short-range EV! And, they have the potential to last a long time -- they
>> are more likely to die from screw-ups and abuse than from being worn
>> out.
>>
>> > I was told by Jim that 144v might get me decent performance with
>> > advanced brushes.
>>
>> 144v is possible on a 48v forklift motor; but it will require some
>> rebuilding and finesse, which will cost time/money. Don't expect to just
>> twist the brush assembly and go.
>>
>> How successful you will be with your project depends on just how cheaply
>> you want to do it, and how much performance you expect. You won't get
>> silk-purse performance out of sows-ear parts unless you know a *lot*
>> about what you are doing, and are willing to put a *lot* of time in it.
>>
>> I suppose some people might say, "John Wayland is driving an old Datsun
>> with a forklift motor and a bunch of little batteries; see how well he's
>> doing?" But this totally ignores the *huge* amount of time, money, and
>> talent that has gone into his car!
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
> I've never understood why people count Ah's.
I think there are two main reasons, one is that battery capacity is
commonly measured/stated in Ah, and Ah is an easy value to
measure/estimate since one needs only an ammeter and a clock.
> On 7/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > My next question is "How many Ah's do I need for a small car
> > to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving conditions?"
> > [...] Maybe an average of 50 mph.
You are asking the wrong question; what you want to ask is "how much
energy (Wh) do I need..."
Think of Wh as the area of a rectangle, where the height of the
rectangle is the pack voltage and the width is the pack capacity in Ah.
You can have a short, wide rectangle (low voltage, large capacity pack)
or a tall, narrow (high voltage, small capacity pack) but have the same
amount of energy available (both rectangles have the same area).
When you ask for the amount of Ah required, you will get a variety of
answers based on each responder's experience with their own particular
(and probably unstated) pack voltage.
A typical small conversion might use 200-300Wh/mi on average, but
"average" typically wouldn't mean averaging 50mph for 10mi. Let's guess
that you might consume 400Wh/mi under those conditions: 400Wh/mi * 10 mi
= 4000Wh (4kWh) of usable energy required.
So, now you know the area your "rectangle" must have, and you can pick a
height (pack voltage) or width (battery capacity) and figure out what
the other "side" needs to be.
For instance, if you want to run a 48V system, you need a pack with a
usable capacity of about 84Ah (4000Wh / 48V = ~84Ah). Now, a typical
small car might need something like 10-12HP to travel at 50mph, so the
rule of thumb is to assume this takes 10-12kW from the battery. 12kW /
48V is 250A. It looks as if you *might* get by with a 48V pack of
flooded 6V golf car batteries. A T105-size battery is typically rated
for about 140Ah @ 75A (to 100%DOD), so they just might give you enough
capacity at 250A to do the job. As a sanity check, a typical small car
with 120V of 6V floodeds might have a maximum range of 30-50mi, or 3-5x
your target with 2.5x as much energy onboard. At your lower voltage you
have to draw higher current for the same power, so you will have less
usable capacity/energy, but it still looks to be in the ballpark.
I wouldn't suggest going with a 48V system though. The only reason for
doing this, in my opinion, would be for the lowest possible cost. You
could use an old GE EV1 SCR lift truck controller (look for one with at
least 400A rating). The vehicle might be able to make your trip, but it
would be fairly gutless. An Altrax 4865 (48V, 650A max) controller with
decent cooling would make for a much nicer experience at the 48V level
while still being reasonably inexpensive.
I would suggest aiming for a 72V system instead: 4000Wh / 72V = 56Ah
usable capacity required. At 72V the 12kW estimated 50mph power only
results in about 167A draw. At this lower current and reduced capacity
need, a set of flooded 6V batteries would easily handle your trip
without being punished. You might even be able to buy used golf car
batteries from a local place that refurbishes golf carts as they come
off lease, etc. for even lower operating cost. Go for an Altrax 7245
(72V 450A max) controller.
At the 72V level you likely wouldn't have to do much of anything to your
48V motor. Listen to Jim Husted on this though, as perhaps you might
still want to advance the timing a bit.
Above the 72V level your motor will require more attention and the
controller cost jumps by a factor of about 2x.
At 72V, the car still won't have gobs of power, but with 72V on a 48V
motor, 450A on tap, and multiple gears you will probably find it
surprisingly fun to drive on surface streets and fairly quick across
intersections, etc.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look in Rod's garage at evparts.com. I think there is one in there.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: 72 volt dc to dc converter
> My 72 vplt sevcon dc to dc converter quit working, does anyone have a
> good used one they want to sell?
> How difficult is it to rebuild them?
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure you will hear from experts, but AGM will generally give less
life and lower range than the floodies. The AGM can deliver more amps
(or as Neon Paul terms it, "fun".) If your controller is limited to
150 amps, sounds like
AGMs would give shorter life and lower range at a much higer cost.
Other than that its a tossup as to which is better.
On 7/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm doing the Azure Dynamics AC kit with a Geo Metro and am wondering if I
could get a more longevity out of a set of AGM batteries vs the standard
flooded lead acid. I'm planning on using 12X of the 130 AHr Trojans or
USBattery to achieve the required 144V and range I need. The peak current
on this controller is 150A, and the cruise current should be around 75 A.
This capacity should be sufficient to get me my 36 mile round trip
commute, but will probably only give me a couple years of use (commuting 3
or 4 times per week). The peak current on this controller is 150A. I
realize there is a heavier set of Trojans with thicker plates, but I'm
feeling I don't want to take on that extra weight. Could I get a little
more cycle life out of a set of AGM batteries? If so, can anyone
recommend a set which would give me the similar capacity to the 130 AHr
flooded cells? I would be willing to take on the extra battery management
if I could get much better cycle life from the AGMs. Also, how
recycleable are the AGM batteries?
Thanks!
Dave
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
thats a cool idea. Thanks for sharing it. I do have a vacuum cleaner
motor sitting on my bench right now, i thought about giving it to my
kiddo but I think he may have to wait a bit.....not sure how it will
take the rough surroundings (water spray) etc. from the motor bay but
I can probably protect it a bit.
That will help my dcdc and I will have a variable speed fan.
Only drawback, the fan RPM should relate to the motor AMPS, not the
motor voltage and I will not have cooling while I am not applying power
(i.e. on the downhill ride after a heavy climb).
How are your beefed up elec-traks doing :)
Markus
... we will prevail ... go hokies...
Mark Hanson schrieb:
<div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">Howdy Folk's,
With the recent discussion on adding a blower to motors that don't have
a built in fan like GE & Prestolite, I use a 120vac vacuum cleaner motor
(Ametek from Rod) wired directly across the motor terminals so I get
that cool winding up effect that sounds futuristic and keeps the motor
cool (after playing with snap-disc thermostats).
( I pulled off the 12V blower since that used too much from the Dc
converter).
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
</div>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee,
my blower motor is a Bosch with plastic casing. I got three wires,
ground, low speed and high speed. I guess it would isolate from the case
and motor fine as there is at least 5 inches of plastic and air in each
direction but I am not sure how well its insulated on the inside.
I do have a 110V blower that is very powerful, but found that its a
small single phase AC motor so thats too much effort.
I may look into using a vacuum cleaner motor hooked up in parallel with
the traction motor, (see message by mark hanson) but think it would pull
too much power when under full load (I think it is 1kw at 220V, so
roughly 400W at 90V I guess?) and does not provide enough air when the
traction motor is runing with high AMP/limited voltage.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Markus
it Lee Hart schrieb:
<div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">Markus
Lorch wrote:
I have a 12V cooling fan to cool my motor... needs 4A on low. As the
fan is just a regular DC motor I was wondering if it would not be
smarter to power it via a small motor controller i.e. like those used
in scooters.
In principle, this will work fine.
In practice, most 12v motors have their negative side grounded to the
case, or if they do bring out both positive and negative wires, have
negligible insulation between them and the case. If you powered them
from your propulsion pack with a non-isolated controller, you could
easily wind up shorting the pack voltage to ground.
As you say, it is hard to find an 80-130vdc input, 12v 4a output
converter. But it is fairly easy to find a 120vac input, 12v 4a output
switchmode power supply. So, you may want to find one that works
adequately on 80-130vdc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JS wrote:
I have a Zivan NG3 switching charger in my EV. It has a power factor
of 0.68. It has an internal fuse of 20 Amps. I have an AVCON adapter
box. I can charge on some public chargers, but some of the ICS-200
units shut down after 1 minute.
I have two 0.005 Henry inductors, 22.5 Ampere rated, and 0.03 Ohm.
Lee Hart wrote:
Adding just one of your 5 mH inductors alone in series with the
charger's AC input is probably all you'll need. Even that may be too
much.
Today I went to two ICS-200 chargers, and plugged in without any mods.
After 1 minute each shut down announcing "Charge Limit Exceeded".
I then put one of the 0.005 Henry chokes in series, and was able to
charge at both places. I was limited in time, but they were both charging
after 20 minutes.
THANKS LEE!
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're essentially building an early-model Solectria Force (with a 21kW
drive). You do realize that with such a low power drive, this car will have
fairly
sedate performance, right? (The later ones had 34kW drives, but admittedly
weighed more too.)
On to your question. The good news is that enough Forces were made that
a set of what one might call "best practices" exists for them.
Solectria (now Azure) tried quite a few different batteries, and the most
reliable they found for the Force was the East Penn Deka Dominator gel
group 27 battery (8G27). Solectria was being rigorous about keeping vehicle
mass under GVWR, but you could probably also use their group 31 battery.
It's a bit bigger, IIRC.
There might indeed be a better lead battery out there for this purpose now;
their tests were conducted years ago. However, the Deka Dominators have
proven themselves pretty well in this application, so that's where I'd start.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats great, Lee
I just now read this post after replying to your other post on the 12V
dc fan... Got two questions though
1) what happens when my controller is full on? The current in the motor
loop will be DC with no interruptions right? A transformer would not
work in this case. (or would it still convert current if its at 0Hz?)
2) dont the PC power supplies drive their transformers at much higher
frequency to reduce size (I think all PC power supplies are switch mode,
or are you talking about an old fashioned standard transformer?)
Thanks
Markus
So here's my idea: Use a transformer to sample motor current, and
convert it into fan current. The more current your traction motor draws,
(the hotter it gets), the faster its cooling fan runs.
Take the transformer out of an old switchmode power supply. Bend a flat
copper buss bar into a "U" and fit it through the core. (If there's no
room, you can remove all the windings first, and just keep the core and
bobbin.) Connect this buss bar in series with one of the wires between
your PWM controller and motor.
Put a bridge rectifier and filter capacitor on one of the secondaries of
the transformer. (Or add your own new secondary; it will only be a dozen
turns or so). Connect this to your DC fan motor.
The motor current varies, of course, from 0 to maximum. This current
transformer converts motor current into fan current. Normally, a current
transformer's turn ratio determines the current ratio; to get 500 amps
of motor current to make 5 amps of fan motor current, you'd need a
1-turn primary and 100 turn secondary. But here, the core will saturate
before you get that kind of power; the power output will self-limit.
Example: The transformer is out of a 300 watt PC power supply that ran
at 60 KHz. Your EV's controller is switching at 20 KHz (1/3rd the
frequency). So, the most this transformer will deliver is about 1/3 of
300w = 100 watts -- that's 12v at 8amps.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
</div>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> OK, like 10 people have jumped up to explain coulombmetric
> efficiency...
>
> The efficiency is not just a matter of AH in vs AH out, too bad it's
> not.
Coulombmetric efficency ~is~ just a matter of Ah out/Ah in. ;^> (And the
original statement/claim was with respect to Ah out vs Ah in, not
overall energy efficiency...)
1A = 1 coulomb per second, so 1Ah = 3600 coulombs and Ah out/Ah in is
therefore directly proportional to coulombs out/coulombs in, which is
the definition of coulombmetric efficiency.
> The difference in charge vs discharge voltage sets the
> efficiency for the most part.
Certainly, if one wants to consider the energy efficiency of the
charge/discharge process, then it makes sense to look at Wh out/Wh in,
since this takes into account both the effects of the charge/discharge
voltage difference and the coloumbmetric efficiency.
It would be just as misleading to only consider the charge/discharge
voltage difference as to only consider the coulombmetric efficiency.
The nearer the battery is to 100% coulombmetric efficiency, the more
impact the voltage differnce has, but for batteries with lower
coulombmetric efficiencies (such as NiCd and NiMH), the coulombmetric
efficiency has a large effect on the overall efficiency.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > I'm not sure if I should go with the 72 or the 144 V set. 72
> > would definitely be safer, but wouldn't the increased
> > amperage require thicker wires?
>
> Yup, and to get the same performance would require a
> controller with twice the current rating (pretty much un-available).
> In fact most 72V controllers have a LOWER current rating than most
> 144V controllers.
This is actually incorrect (but only just barely ;^)
The Altrax 7245 (72V 450A) is ~very~ nearly equivalent in current rating
to the Curtis 1231C (the only Curtis that reaches 144V):
7245 1231
2min 450 500
5min 350 375
1hr 200 225
(I would put my money on the Altrax to actually deliver at ~least~ as
much current as the Curtis in the real world.)
But, more to the point, the 'Zilla happens to run down to 72V nominal,
so a Z1K-LV (72-156V) will actually deliver the same current for 72V or
144V packs.
And, the 2000A Z2K-LV will deliver twice the current at 72V as a Z1K-LV
at 144V, so it is possible but spendy. (Yes, if the Z2K were the 144V
choice then it ~might~ not be possible to get double the current at 72V
[does Otmar support master-slave multi-Zilla arrays? ;^], but
realistically it is unlikely one would really need more than 2000A @ 72V
for acceptable performance - even with the battery sagged to 36V @ 2000A
this is still 72kW (~96HP), or more than many 144V cars with Curtii.)
> Civics are also a good candidate. Most of the Civic conversions get
> decent range and efficiency.
Hondas seem to command ridiculously high prices on the used market in
Canada, disproportionately higher than virtually any other make of
similar vintage.
Cost aside, a Honda would also be a great choice of donor due to the
popularity with the tuner crowd, etc. You just won't get quite the same
reaction/appreciation from the general public with a converted Cavalier
(or Corolla/Camry even). But, here in BC I could probably pick up a
Miata donor for the same or less money than a Civic of similar
vintage...
This could be one argument in favour of converting the Mercedes; there
are plenty of examples of small car conversions, doing something like
the Mercedes could make the point that you can convert whatever vehicle
you happen to have available, you don't have to seek out some "special"
donor.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The old Curtis 1221b in my buggy died a flaming death so I had to
install a new (used) one. The newer 1221B doesn't seem to precharge,
my 7.5 watt light bulb precharge resistor sits there with a full 130
volts across it.
Basic specs:
1221b replacing previous one with no 120 volt system changes.
12 volt system is currently off and disconnected (no interference here)
A single Albright SW200 contactor is used on the 120 volt positive
lead to the controller
A KUEP (150 VDC) relay controls ksi input (controller B+ to relay to
ksi)
The above 2 relays are both powered by ignition + (and have been
verified to be off)
The 7.5 watt precharge light bulb is across the contactor
So, I replace the dead 1221b with the other one I had and wire
everything up. I screw in the precharge bulb and it lights full
brightness. 2 minutes later its still at full brightness (precharge
took around 20 seconds with the previous 1221b.) I measure the
voltage across the open contactor and it reads 130 volts (matches the
pack voltage to within 1 volt.)
I'm going to go out and start checking everything again today, but I
did that last night and didn't find anything obvious. Any ideas on
what I should check would be appreciated.
I'll check my e-mail regularly while I'm studying the problem. 2
tests that come to mind are pulling a motor lead off and seeing if
the controller still doesn't precharge (if it does its likely
internally shorted) and trying a higher wattage light bulb in case
the older controller had an overly high value input cap bleeder
resistor.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eco Performance wrote:
> I live in the rockies and feel there is a market for
> functional EV's. I dubbed them MUEV's (mountain
> utilityEV). What I picture is something that can seat
> 4 people, a dog, and some gear, all-wheel drive, and
> have a good enough range and top speed to suit all us
> ski bums with 20+ mile commutes to our jobs as
> servants to the wealthy.
> So far we've procured a donor Saab 900 and have been
> crunching the numbers on what it will take to make it
> fly. Our price tag is looking awful close to $30k,
> not taking into account numerous problems we're bound
> to have. I don't want to make toys for rich people, I
> want to help out those who need it and make a modest
> dent on emissions.
>
> I'm asking if you guys had any ideas on how to make
> this affordable and how you'd design it in our
> situation.
It's difficult to make much of any suggestion without knowing what sort
of top speed suits you, and what sort of range you need (20mi charging
at each end, or 40mi roundtrip?).
I'd suggest ditching the Saab and instead looking at something like a
Jeep or similar. It will be easier to do, probably cheaper, and more
likely to meet your targets. That said, it will be *very* difficult to
come up with an EV that can carry 4 adults and some cargo and still be
legal with enough battery onboard to deliver a solid 20mi range at speed
over hilly terrain in cool temperatures. Or at least it will be if you
don't have the budget for Li-Ion batteries.
A Jeep may not have the GVWR to handle a full passenger load + the
battery pack, so you might end up looking at an extended cab/crew cab
pickup instead. A Unimog conversion would be the coolest ski bum
transport imaginable and would have the payload capacity to handle the
job, but a good chunk of your budget would be eaten up just purchasing
the donor (though if you can locate one with a dead engine it might not
be too bad).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.enertiabike.com/
i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength
and weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem
hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does
help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K
initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to
come later is still high for my taste.
what do others think?
mike sandman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I could put the same batteries on my motorcycle and go just as far
only faster. With 48 volts of 100 ahr Safts on my bike, I could easily
achieve 35 + miles range with a top speed of 60 mph. The only thing special
you are getting with this is the Valence batteries and you can go out and
buy those on your own.
damon
From: Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Opinion on Brammo Enertia bike?
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:54:42 -0400
http://www.enertiabike.com/
i am interested in this. i like the use of carbon fiber for strength and
weight. the use of the valence lithium phosphate batteries seem
hi-tech...hehe...though i don't like how high they are mounted. it does
help keep the look not so boxy as other attempts. and of course the $15K
initial cost is hard to swallow. even the cheaper production run to come
later is still high for my taste.
what do others think?
mike sandman
_________________________________________________________________
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one
place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I do have a 110V blower that is very powerful, but found that its a
> small single phase AC motor so thats too much effort.
Does it have brushes? If so then it's probably a universal motor.
Universal motors are basically a Series wound motor optimized to run on
AC, but they will also run on DC just fine.
I'm guessing that you already know this, but figured I'd point it out just
in case.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a short or high leakage inside the controller.
A bad/shorted cap may cause this, but I suspect it would be something in the
power stage. Disconnect the IGN+ and Pot wires, then disconnect the motor,
if it still does this, it's definitely the controller.
Also, if you don't want the old controller, I'll buy it off you.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Curtis 1221B - help!
The old Curtis 1221b in my buggy died a flaming death so I had to install
a new (used) one. The newer 1221B doesn't seem to precharge, my 7.5 watt
light bulb precharge resistor sits there with a full 130 volts across it.
Basic specs:
1221b replacing previous one with no 120 volt system changes.
12 volt system is currently off and disconnected (no interference here)
A single Albright SW200 contactor is used on the 120 volt positive lead
to the controller
A KUEP (150 VDC) relay controls ksi input (controller B+ to relay to ksi)
The above 2 relays are both powered by ignition + (and have been verified
to be off)
The 7.5 watt precharge light bulb is across the contactor
So, I replace the dead 1221b with the other one I had and wire everything
up. I screw in the precharge bulb and it lights full brightness. 2
minutes later its still at full brightness (precharge took around 20
seconds with the previous 1221b.) I measure the voltage across the open
contactor and it reads 130 volts (matches the pack voltage to within 1
volt.)
I'm going to go out and start checking everything again today, but I did
that last night and didn't find anything obvious. Any ideas on what I
should check would be appreciated.
I'll check my e-mail regularly while I'm studying the problem. 2 tests
that come to mind are pulling a motor lead off and seeing if the
controller still doesn't precharge (if it does its likely internally
shorted) and trying a higher wattage light bulb in case the older
controller had an overly high value input cap bleeder resistor.
Thanx,
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you planning on building a NEV? 144V @ 150A is only about 22hp.
If you are planning on driving this on the highway, you'll be able to
measure your 0-60 times with a wall calendar.
My controller produces over 50% more top end power, and probably three
times as much low end torque, and it takes me about a minute and a half to
get to 60mph.
I think that controller can handle higher voltage? IF so, you might want
to give that some serious consideration.
> I'm doing the Azure Dynamics AC kit with a Geo Metro and am wondering if I
> could get a more longevity out of a set of AGM batteries vs the standard
> flooded lead acid. I'm planning on using 12X of the 130 AHr Trojans or
> USBattery to achieve the required 144V and range I need. The peak current
> on this controller is 150A, and the cruise current should be around 75 A.
> This capacity should be sufficient to get me my 36 mile round trip
> commute, but will probably only give me a couple years of use (commuting 3
> or 4 times per week). The peak current on this controller is 150A. I
> realize there is a heavier set of Trojans with thicker plates, but I'm
> feeling I don't want to take on that extra weight. Could I get a little
> more cycle life out of a set of AGM batteries? If so, can anyone
> recommend a set which would give me the similar capacity to the 130 AHr
> flooded cells? I would be willing to take on the extra battery management
> if I could get much better cycle life from the AGMs. Also, how
> recycleable are the AGM batteries?
>
> Thanks!
> Dave
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about one of those old Land Rover Ranger Rover
from 20 or more years ago...
Like they use out on the Safari of Africa ;)
On 7/12/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Eco Performance wrote:
> I live in the rockies and feel there is a market for
> functional EV's. I dubbed them MUEV's (mountain
> utilityEV). What I picture is something that can seat
> 4 people, a dog, and some gear, all-wheel drive, and
> have a good enough range and top speed to suit all us
> ski bums with 20+ mile commutes to our jobs as
> servants to the wealthy.
> So far we've procured a donor Saab 900 and have been
> crunching the numbers on what it will take to make it
> fly. Our price tag is looking awful close to $30k,
> not taking into account numerous problems we're bound
> to have. I don't want to make toys for rich people, I
> want to help out those who need it and make a modest
> dent on emissions.
>
> I'm asking if you guys had any ideas on how to make
> this affordable and how you'd design it in our
> situation.
It's difficult to make much of any suggestion without knowing what sort
of top speed suits you, and what sort of range you need (20mi charging
at each end, or 40mi roundtrip?).
I'd suggest ditching the Saab and instead looking at something like a
Jeep or similar. It will be easier to do, probably cheaper, and more
likely to meet your targets. That said, it will be *very* difficult to
come up with an EV that can carry 4 adults and some cargo and still be
legal with enough battery onboard to deliver a solid 20mi range at speed
over hilly terrain in cool temperatures. Or at least it will be if you
don't have the budget for Li-Ion batteries.
A Jeep may not have the GVWR to handle a full passenger load + the
battery pack, so you might end up looking at an extended cab/crew cab
pickup instead. A Unimog conversion would be the coolest ski bum
transport imaginable and would have the payload capacity to handle the
job, but a good chunk of your budget would be eaten up just purchasing
the donor (though if you can locate one with a dead engine it might not
be too bad).
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just so the nebies don't get confused...
Since Roland didn't to post the pack voltage, this information is
completely useless.
> Hello Paul,
>
> A heavy EV in the range of 6500 to 7000 lbs requires about 3.5 AH per mile
> average where a EV that weighs about 3000 lbs might be from 1.5 to 2.5 AH
> per mile.
>
> I can get my AH usage to about 2.5 AH per mile if I drive at 25 mph and
> double that at 50 mph or about 550 watts per mile.
>
> So lets say a 3000 lb EV gets 2.5 AH per mile average, if you have the
> right
> overall gear ratio of over 5.5:1, then for 10 miles, you will use about 25
> AH.
>
> You could use a 50 AH battery which you could go 10 miles discharging to
> 50%
> DOD which your batteries will last twice as long as if you took them to
> 80%
> DOD.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 10:02 AM
> Subject: RE: Short Range Battery Pack
>
>
>> You offered some great ideas. Instead of buying brand new batterries
>> just
>> to be destroyed by my lack of knowledge and experience I will look for
>> some used PSU batteries. My next question is "How many Ah's do I need
>> for
>> a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v in moderate driving conditions?"
>> Just looking for round numbers. Looking for 80% DOD I want the lowest Ah
>> that will do this but don't know where to start at. Maybe an average of
>> 50
>> mph. What might that Ah equate to in 48v?(I know my top speed will drop
>> drastically)
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion... 77 datsun 280z...
>> > 48v forklift motor... I want a short range EV with lots of pickup...
>> > I think I also want AGM's... I would like to know what is the
>> > cheapest pack I can put together with greater than 140v and range for
>> > 5 to 10 miles...
>>
>> > I don't want sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
>>
>> That is a formula for a very short battery life. If that is acceptable
>> (for example, you just want a car to race on weekends, then I would
>> suggest some cheap flooded combination marine/starting batteries. They
>> won't last long (maybe 100 cycles), but are cheap and will deliver the
>> high currents for a high "fun" factor.
>>
>> AGMs to do the same thing will cost 2-3 times more. They can last twice
>> as long *if* you use a good charger and BMS (battery management system).
>> If you use a cheap charger and no BMS, the AGMs will also die in 100-200
>> cycles.
>>
>> Perhaps the cheapest way to get low cost and still be able to draw high
>> currents for fast acceleration is to get *used* AGM batteries. The ones
>> that are used in large UPS power supplies are often automatically
>> replaced every 2-3 years, and available surplus for perhaps 1/2 to 1/4
>> of their cost new. You could use them with simple chargers and a very
>> primitive BMS. They would die quickly, but at least are cheap.
>>
>> A range of only 5-10 miles and fast driving means you are discharging
>> the batteries in perhaps 15 minutes at most. This is really the forte of
>> things like the BB600 nicad aircraft starting batteries. You can
>> sometimes find them surplus for very good prices. The downside is that
>> they require a *lot* of work to rejevante, install, and maintain. But if
>> you have lots of time and little money, they would make a very fast
>> short-range EV! And, they have the potential to last a long time -- they
>> are more likely to die from screw-ups and abuse than from being worn
>> out.
>>
>> > I was told by Jim that 144v might get me decent performance with
>> > advanced brushes.
>>
>> 144v is possible on a 48v forklift motor; but it will require some
>> rebuilding and finesse, which will cost time/money. Don't expect to just
>> twist the brush assembly and go.
>>
>> How successful you will be with your project depends on just how cheaply
>> you want to do it, and how much performance you expect. You won't get
>> silk-purse performance out of sows-ear parts unless you know a *lot*
>> about what you are doing, and are willing to put a *lot* of time in it.
>>
>> I suppose some people might say, "John Wayland is driving an old Datsun
>> with a forklift motor and a bunch of little batteries; see how well he's
>> doing?" But this totally ignores the *huge* amount of time, money, and
>> talent that has gone into his car!
>>
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
