EV Digest 7040
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Henney Kilowatt controller, was: Information needed please.
by "Aaron Choate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Problems
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: batteries: another increasing range question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Henney Kilowatt controller, was: Information needed please.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Zivan (NG2?)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: LED headlights- new development!
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LED headlights- new development!
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LED headlights- new development!
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: questions
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Zivan (NG2?)
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Fastest Electric Boat 120 mph !!
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: questions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Anyone seen a 1600A fuse before?
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Fast Charging
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
by Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fastest Electric Boat 120 mph !!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
by "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV's need sleep mode
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fast Charging
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Ideal conversion candidate? Aussies are Lucky.
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fast Charging
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Virtual Instrumentation Solution
by "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Zivan (NG2?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
by "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It has 7 positions if you count off as one. The Eureka Williams
provided Fact Sheet that Cara transcribed for our site lists it as a
"Six step control. Foot pedal operates control, varying speed of
motor, exactly as in a gasoline-powered car."
If people are interested, they can view an image of the speed
controller from our car on the site Cara put together for it.
http://www.intrepid-travelers.com/
The Controller pics (one overview and a close-up of the speed cog) are
on the Facts page. Sorry, but they are the only ones that will allow
you to click for a larger version.
http://www.intrepid-travelers.com/EVinfo/factsheet.html
Cheers,
Aaron Choate
On 7/18/07, Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 09:25 -0500, Christopher Robison wrote:
> Somewhere there's got to be a decent picture of the control board with
> its contactor array. I'll dig around and see if I can find it.
Huge thanks to Tim Humphrey, who sent some pictures of the Henney
Kilowatt controller and some diagrams of its design and wiring
configuration at each step of throttle input. I've put them here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/other_stuff/henney_controller
The photos came from James Jarret's car, "Lady Penelope"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/431
I don't recall the controller in Aaron's Kilowatt having 7 throttle
positions, but this could be my memory.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
This is a Sparrow. It has 13 Optima YT's for a nominal 156V pack.
86 volts is WAY too low!
Man, what a frustrating chain of circumstances! Sadly, it sounds like
that pack is ready for recycling.
What was left on in the Sparrow that was drawing power all the time? It
must be a relatively heavy load. For instance, the E-meter would have
taken several months to do it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The vehicle is a 1974 VW beetle... the before weight was 1831 lbs...
The batteries I killed are 35 AH AGMs... 29 lbs... 12 of them, 350 lbs.
Yes, that does sound like *way* too small a pack. Driving at the speeds
you quoted, and on hills, and for that range would indeed murder them
almost immediately.
Make your next pack at least twice the capacity.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
Huge thanks to Tim Humphrey, who sent some pictures of the Henney
Kilowatt controller and some diagrams of its design and wiring
configuration at each step of throttle input. I've put them here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/v/other_stuff/henney_controller
The photos came from James Jarret's car, "Lady Penelope"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/431
Those are great! Many thanks to Chrisopher Robison and Tim Humphrey for
providing them.
It's a classic rectactor circuit. Four banks of batteries, which can be
wired in series/parallel to provide 3 voltage steps (18v/36v/72v), plus
a starting resistor, and field weakening for 2 more intermediate steps.
It's not transistorized, but is "solid state" by virtue of those big
diodes. This was actually a fairly advanced design for 1960, and a good
model to copy even today.
Looks like the cam switch had some problems on this one. The little
black things are the microswitches. The cam itself (that was rotated by
a mechanical cable to the accelerator pedal) looks pretty beat up.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe wrote:
> Optima YT's would give you 75 Ah, so would double your range;
> would do it in the summer, or spring/fall, but maybe not in
> winter, unless you use G31's, which are around 90 Ah.
You gotta tell the rest of us where you buy your Optimas! ;^>
The Optima D34 (YT) and D34M (BT) (Group 34) batteries I can buy are
rated 55Ah C/20, and are good for about 35-40Ah in the real world. The
D31M (Group 31) is only rated 75Ah C/20, and so basedon the Group 34
performance would be good for about 48-55Ah in the real world:
<http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/produ
ct_info/marine/technical_specs.html>
I still wouldn't suggest using AGMs in this application since they just
aren't going to last very long if cycled deeply (75-80%DOD) every
outing.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
> What if you use the AGMs with regulators/balancers?
It should help, but it is not a sure thing (multiple people have had
their AGMs die prematurely with Zivan chargers despite using
regulators).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i was looking into 48 volt head lights for my
motorcycle and i came across some 48 volt LED lights
boosting 500 lumes for about $100 us. they were for
forklifts i belive i did not save the link
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oh check this out!
>
> A couple of weeks ago I was mentioning that the
> Luxeon Rebels have
> achieved power levels that make it practical to make
> LED headlights.
>
> Well Luxeon just pulled a fast one. Their 0070 part
> suddenly became
> obsolete as their line achieved 0100. So with zero
> increase in
> electrical power, it's now making 180 lumens instead
> of 130 lumens
> @2.38W. That's a simultaneous leap in both
> efficiency and output per
> device. I have dealt with them and the thermal
> issues are not
> particularly bad and achieving the full rating in a
> real-world
> application should not be all that difficult.
>
> So Wikipedia says the first halogens headlights
> (still around) are 700
> lumens on low beam. This would have required 6
> devices per side, now
> we're down to 4 per side.
>
> As a reminder, this may not be legal for public
> roadways and given its
> radically different appearance may realistically
> elicit a traffic stop.
> With this efficiency hike they are significantly
> more efficient than
> halogens, yet since headlights do not constitute a
> significant range
> loss to begin with it's not likely to make a big
> whoop of range
> difference if it made all the light in the world on
> zero electrical power.
>
> It would, however, be cool.
>
> I'd be willing to prototype some for someone in the
> Austin area at a
> pretty low cost just for the fun of it.
>
> Danny
>
>
>
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out all these LED automotive lamps that are out
there:
http://www.ledlight.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=6
I counted 16 pages of all sorts of LED lamps, in many,
many configurations, etc.
--- dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> i was looking into 48 volt head lights for my
> motorcycle and i came across some 48 volt LED lights
> boosting 500 lumes for about $100 us. they were for
> forklifts i belive i did not save the link
>
> --- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Oh check this out!
> >
> > A couple of weeks ago I was mentioning that the
> > Luxeon Rebels have
> > achieved power levels that make it practical to
> make
> > LED headlights.
> >
> > Well Luxeon just pulled a fast one. Their 0070
> part
> > suddenly became
> > obsolete as their line achieved 0100. So with
> zero
> > increase in
> > electrical power, it's now making 180 lumens
> instead
> > of 130 lumens
> > @2.38W. That's a simultaneous leap in both
> > efficiency and output per
> > device. I have dealt with them and the thermal
> > issues are not
> > particularly bad and achieving the full rating in
> a
> > real-world
> > application should not be all that difficult.
> >
> > So Wikipedia says the first halogens headlights
> > (still around) are 700
> > lumens on low beam. This would have required 6
> > devices per side, now
> > we're down to 4 per side.
> >
> > As a reminder, this may not be legal for public
> > roadways and given its
> > radically different appearance may realistically
> > elicit a traffic stop.
> > With this efficiency hike they are significantly
> > more efficient than
> > halogens, yet since headlights do not constitute a
> > significant range
> > loss to begin with it's not likely to make a big
> > whoop of range
> > difference if it made all the light in the world
> on
> > zero electrical power.
> >
> > It would, however, be cool.
> >
> > I'd be willing to prototype some for someone in
> the
> > Austin area at a
> > pretty low cost just for the fun of it.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here
> and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo!
> Games.
>
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zetex zxld1360 is a great switcher. Takes up to 30V in (40V
absolute max for limited periods). Needs an external input cap,
inductor, tiny shunt resistor, and diode and that's it. It does have a
1 amp output limitation.
There is also the SuperTex HV9910, but that doesn't have an integral
switch and has an undocumented premature skipping prob that requires a
couple of extra components to fix. But the 9910 can take in up to
450VDC if your external transistor can take it and could operate
straight off the main pack no prob if you dared run pack +/- to the
headlight area.
As you may know it is difficult to put LED emitters in parallel, it
requires large sharing resistors to try to balance them. Running off a
12v batt presents a limit of 3 emitters per series string.
Danny
Dave Cover wrote:
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So Wikipedia says the first halogens headlights (still around) are 700
lumens on low beam. This would have required 6 devices per side, now
we're down to 4 per side.
Danny
Maybe you can make some driving lights for a start. Or fog lights, just spread
the pattern a
little wider.
What are you using for a driver for the LEDs? I looked at different circuits
but haven't had time
play with them yet. My interest has only been in using them to replace running
lights, dome lights
etc.
If you can recommend any good circuit designs to follow, I'd appreciate it.
Still running incandescent, sigh...
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> My understanding is that the Prestolites eventually
> became? ADC motors, or at least ADC is patterned off
> of them, but I can't remember where I heard that.
> Many people still use them, so I'm assuming that
> brushes, other replacement parts still exist.
Hi Bob,
Prestolite used to be the Electric Autolite Co. Long
ago, Ford bought the Autolite name and the company
became Prestolite. They made motors, generators,
electric components and assemblies, spark plugs, wire
and other stuff. In the 70's and 80's, Prestolite had
a good motor business going with plants in Bay City,
MI, Wagoner, OK, Sryacuse, NY, and Cheltenham, UK.
The plant in Syracuse was where the lift truck motors
were made. These were 6 thru 13 inch diameter wound
field and 5.6 inch PM motors. Things were good.
In the mid 1980's, there was a rash of corporate
acquisitions and Prestolite Motor Division got jacked
around all over the place. At one point, management
could not stand the thought of a union shop (UAW) in
Syracuse, so moved the product line and shut the place
down. The plant manager and a bunch of the Syracuse
white collars went out on their own to form Advanced
DC Motors. From what I can tell, they copied the
Prestolite designs to get started. They had the
connections to get the manufacturing equipment and
workers. And also had contacts to the customers once
served by Prestolite.
Meanwhile Prestolite was getting divested and
bankrupted. Now there are several Prestolites in the
US and overseas. I think the Prestolite most related
to the large motors once made in Syracuse is
http://www.ametektip.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=106
The principals who started Advanced DC eventually sold
to Kinetek. Then some of their family members started
D and D Motors in Sryacuse, and make a line of 6.6
inch DC motors still looking like the old Prestolite
designs, only painted blue.
A little motor history lesson.
Jeff
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what chragers are appropriate for AGM batteries?
On 7/18/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joseph T. wrote:
> What if you use the AGMs with regulators/balancers?
It should help, but it is not a sure thing (multiple people have had
their AGMs die prematurely with Zivan chargers despite using
regulators).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While thumbing through the July/August issue of Sailing World, they had
a big article on hyddro-fiol sail boats. So that led me to Google Video
to see some footage of these things in motion, and then to YouTube
section on "Fastestin the World", and then UP POPed this electric boat...
Enjoy...
(PS: Dave Cloud, you don't have to worry. Your record is safe, but for
reeeely tiny peoople this is a fast ride !! )
Wow....
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DbMEW5SpOs )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Generally:
More volts means more amps driven through the motor, which means more
power. In general. There are a lot of other factors.
Also, you can usually overvoltage a motor, to a point. There are people
who run 48V motors at 120V, for example. Motor death can come from
overheating, which is why the temperature rating of the insulation of
the motor is important.
Michael Mohlere wrote:
Sorry about the last message - seems windows live hotmail doesn't
support plain text emails (nice)...
Does anyone know if a todd pc25lv dc-dc converter can be used up to
144 volts, or is 120 the limit?
Also, does running an electric motor (prestolite, ADC, etc.) used in
EVs at a higher pack voltage
make it more "powerful" as well as extend the range?
CAN you run a prestolite (the 4002) at 144 volts? Will that kill or
shorten the life of the motor?
Do they still make Prestolite motors? Can they be rebuilt (new
brushes, i assume)?
Thx, Mike
_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can make your own from a few smaller ones put together .. That's what I
would do before I paid 700 bucks for a fuse
Mitchell
-------Original Message-------
From: Ian Hooper
Date: 7/18/2007 6:17:25 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Anyone seen a 1600A fuse before?
600 volts max (well above my needs, but most of the seriously high
Current fuses seem to be quite high voltage too).
Awfully expensive units too, remelectronics.com lists them at US
$745ea! Surplussalesco.com has one for $245.
I got this one for $45+P&P, God bless eBay ;)
-Ian
On 17/07/2007, at 1:14 PM, David Wilker wrote:
> What is the voltage rating?
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
> ---- Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> With my plans to run dual motors and high power batteries in my
> current conversion, I figure peak current could be over 1000 amps. So
> I found a 1600A fuse on eBay, which arrived today. But good grief,
> it's.. Implausibly massive:
>
> http://www.zeva.com.au/1600A.jpg
>
> Pictured next to a 600A fuse (which I used to think was huge) and an
> ordinary pencil, for reference. I should just run 2-3 of the 600As in
> parallel instead, that would be much lighter!
>
> -Ian
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday I had some fun. I've started installing my PFC-40 charger.
Initial test, when plugged into a 240V Dryer outlet (actually, my
Welder outlet), it was pumping 42A into the pack.
You can charge from dead pretty quick that way!
I'm now in the process of hooking up all the Rudman
Regulators. (Need to get a few more wires and connectors to finish it.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rather than design your own, you could just buy an aftermarket traction
control system.
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control
(GBP 535 for the system and GBP 250 for the wheel sensors)
Connecting it to a Zilla is trivial.
(Short the throttle input for zero throttle)
Who knows how well it would work in a drag racing situation?
(Bouncing down the strip from the repeated cycle of the front wheels
leaving the ground, the TC cutting the power, the front wheels hitting
the ground and spinning up to speed, power returning shooting the front
wheels into the air again...) Actually - that would be very funny :-)
Of course, it would need to be bypassed for the warm up burn out.
Alternatively, put something really heavy over the back wheels.
Something like lead - it's really heavy - lots of lead.
It's a shame all that added weight couldn't be put to some use...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2007 8:50 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
You need to design a simple circuit that automatically detects wheel
spin and bleeds and dumps the excess amps into a very short term storage
circuit cap until the wheels stop spinning and refeeds it back as you
gain speed so they wont spin and you keep your total power . All the
circuit needs to do is detect the ratio of power wheel spin to unpowered
wheel spin to detect slippage (unless your front wheels come off the
ground - do they?)
Your welcome. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Thanks for the link!
I just started playing with RC electric boats and got
bored within a day of the Toys-R-Us crap.
I found out that high speed boats like the one on
youtube use BLDC motors like the ones Ametek-Rotron
sells (I work there). Ametek bought xTreme motors a
couple of years ago, they have slotless BLDC motors
used by RC electric hobbiest. Luckily I have access
to free motors and controls, so hopefully I can get
something going for the kids (we live on the lakes in
Ohio, Portage Lakes near Akron). Hopefully I'll have
a fast one to post on youtube soon (nothing close to
that boat however!)
The Canadian geese better look out!
Rod
P.S. www.castlecreations.com sells really tiny
sensorless BLDC controls that go up to 125Amps
http://www.castlecreations.com/products/phoenix-125.html
--- Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While thumbing through the July/August issue of
> Sailing World, they had
> a big article on hyddro-fiol sail boats. So that
> led me to Google Video
> to see some footage of these things in motion, and
> then to YouTube
> section on "Fastestin the World", and then UP POPed
> this electric boat...
>
> Enjoy...
>
> (PS: Dave Cloud, you don't have to worry. Your
> record is safe, but for
> reeeely tiny peoople this is a fast ride !! )
>
> Wow....
>
> ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DbMEW5SpOs )
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim!
On Jul 17, 2007, at 4:14 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
Man you guys are sticklers for the facts, lol. Sorry
I didn't have an MTC at the house to weigh when I was
posting, LMAO. The basic Presto 7.2" motors lie in
that 80 lbs range, either that or I'm stronger than I
look ;^) I'm gonna have to weigh my MKB 12 brush core
as I thought that was about as long a 7 as Prestolite
made. Anyway the MTC must be a tad longer than my
usual 7 I build, so my bad 8^)
Its about 17 1/8 inches long (from end bell to end of shaft), if that
helps. It has 8 brushes. I also know (just measured) that the motor
case is only 7 inches in diameter (and my spec sheet tells me 7 1/8
inch!)
My ADC book shows the 8's at 125 lbs and so I'm
quoting there. The MTC isn't a lift motor and
although I've seen them (Dutchman has a new one) I'm
not super versed in them. FWIW I miss the old
Prestolite days 8^(
I've noticed that motor numbers vary slightly depending on what
"official" paper you look at. (yours must be wrong, LMAO!) I think
I'm going with the ADC 8 inch this time - but just to do something
different. I've had good success with the old Prestolite motors (plus
they're pretty ;-) In the case in question its pushing a 3400 lb. VW
Pickup around.
[snip]
Great to have seen ya down at the track last weekend.
Had fun, hope this helps (I'm sure I'll hear about it
if it doesn't) hehee. 8^P
You'll hear about it one way or the other! We need more EV discussion
on this list. I aim to add some. I just ordered a Zilla controller to
add some more EV to my life.
And... it was great seeing you at the track this past weekend too!
To everyone out there with an EV or a serious interest in building an
EV - you *really* need to attend one or more EVents. You get to see a
range of EVs (not all the EVs this past weekend where racers.) You
get to meet the people, ranging from owners and builders to racers
and hardware designers (just watch out for Jim <g>.) Its a lot of fun
and a feast for the eyes, even if you have already built an EV or
two. I've still got a bit of an EV buzz from last weekend (and I was
just barely getting over the one from the Greenwood show.) I highly
recommend you just get out and experience it, even if you have to
drive your gasser a few hundred miles to attend one!
Paul "neon" Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electronic traction control in an EV would be a great safety item for a
street vehicle. Keep the wheels hooked up to the pavement at all times
( unless you flip a switch and warm up the tires some). On a drag
racing vehicle, check the rule book for your specific event, as some
race classes / sanctioning bodies (like the NHRA) frown on the use of
electronic traction control.
Alan Brinkman
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
Rather than design your own, you could just buy an aftermarket traction
control system.
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control
(GBP 535 for the system and GBP 250 for the wheel sensors)
Connecting it to a Zilla is trivial.
(Short the throttle input for zero throttle)
Who knows how well it would work in a drag racing situation?
(Bouncing down the strip from the repeated cycle of the front wheels
leaving the ground, the TC cutting the power, the front wheels hitting
the ground and spinning up to speed, power returning shooting the front
wheels into the air again...) Actually - that would be very funny :-)
Of course, it would need to be bypassed for the warm up burn out.
Alternatively, put something really heavy over the back wheels.
Something like lead - it's really heavy - lots of lead.
It's a shame all that added weight couldn't be put to some use...
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2007 8:50 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
You need to design a simple circuit that automatically detects wheel
spin and bleeds and dumps the excess amps into a very short term storage
circuit cap until the wheels stop spinning and refeeds it back as you
gain speed so they wont spin and you keep your total power . All the
circuit needs to do is detect the ratio of power wheel spin to unpowered
wheel spin to detect slippage (unless your front wheels come off the
ground - do they?)
Your welcome. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence, Lee, Phil & All,
I agree in the long run it's best to eliminate parasitic loads. But it might
take awhile for new low parasitic products to show up in automotive quantity
and price points, in the meantime the Freedom, Sunrise, Tesla et all, will
need to use regular hi parasitic parts, or spend a lot of time sourcing &
adapting special parts. A more serious problem was imbalance from different
self-discharge rates between batteries parked for a long time. Thought this
was fixed with Power Cheq modules which wake up periodically even when the
car is parked for a long time, but they blow fuses on the odd module, making
imbalance even worse! Any balancer or BMS you have is a parasitic draw too.
In any case parasitic loads aren't the problems I've seen. The main problem
is the key left on; dome lights, parking lights, instruments etc: all the
typical things which give a dead battery in an ICE car, plus contactors,
leaking vacum pumps, LED graphs etc.
I agree with the "secret mode" thing, I got annoyed in a Think!, just trying
to turn it on! Especially if every EV had a different smarty pants scheme of
"immobilizer" or "sleep mode". Would be easiest if there's a flashing
pushbutton on the dash, although this would take power. Maybe just an LED
with a short flash every couple of seconds.
Or maybe if "no accelerator" makes it eventually go to sleep (after a day,
to avoid the traffic jam stall), we could use pushing the accelerator to
wake up. Just a microswitch so no current draw, and I guess you'd need a
short delay to wake everything up, so maybe the driver would have to pump
the pedal. A little confusing, but maybe the most intuitive. I've seen many
new EV drivers pound away on the pedal when the thing didn't go. Kind of
funny! The other thing people do intuitively is turn the key off & on.
- John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: EV's need sleep mode
Just a data point, my smart car's immobilizer kicks in after a few minutes
if you turn off the car and don't lock it. The first couple of times you
get in and fiddle with the iPod or read the headlines on the paper before
you start the car are a bit confusing when the ignition does not work but
you get use to it pretty fast. There is a key lock symbol in the
dashboard display just to let you know the car is locked. A quick press
of the unlock button reactivates everything. However I agree with Lee
that a propulsion pack should basically have a self discharge profile with
just the basic parasitic loads operating.
Lawrence
Lee Hart wrote:
John Foster wrote:
the general public... They park, grab some things off the floor,
leave the keys on in the ignition. This happens in home garages, on
dealer lots, in repair shops. The car may be parked for weeks or
months, then the pack is shot.
I agree. It is one thing to kill a $100 12v car battery; it is quite
another to kill a $1000 pack! Since the cost of the error is so much
higher in an EV, it makes sense to have better safeguards.
Laptops, calculators, cameras, all modern battery operated things
go to sleep if the owner accidentally leaves them on.
Well, sort of. Most older electronics were totally off, or fully on. It
was pretty obvious if you left them running (lights, noise, heat, etc.)
And when off, they were completely off -- no parasitic loads at all.
Most newer stuff has no totally off function -- just sleep and fully on.
Modern cars will run down their 12v battery in a few weeks, just from all
the parasitic "sleep" loads. Laptops destroy their batteries if not
charged regularly due to the constant load of their electronics.
I think cars should go to sleep if the accelerator isn't pressed for an
hour. Then wake with the key off & on. Any other ideas?
This is a viable strategy, but it adds complexity. It can also become a
"secret mode" that does things the customer doesn't expect. Maybe he's
stuck in traffic for an hour without moving. When he finally gets ready
to step on the throttle, the car suddenly shuts off. It could lead to
trips to the dealer, fruitless searches for a problem, etc.
With lithium, nicad, or nimh batteries, there is no particular penalty
from letting them sit in a partially discharged state. So, it is
acceptable to have a low voltage cutout circuit that shuts down it the
pack falls to 10% or 20% state of charge.
My own preference is to design things to be more energy efficient in the
first place. There is no excuse for an electrical system that is so
inefficient that it quickly runs down a huge propulsion battery. Get rid
of the parasitic "sleep mode" loads. Fans shouldn't be running if there's
nothing to cool. Contactors shouldn't be pulled in when you're not
driving. Clocks can run for years on a coin-sized cell; they don't need
to waste 1000's of times more power like car clocks. Radios can run on AA
cells for days; if car radios were as efficient, they would run for years
on the propulsion batteries. Trip odometers and radio presets can use
nonvolatile memories that don't use any power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need a Rudman Regulator for each individual battery, right?
On 7/17/07, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yesterday I had some fun. I've started installing my PFC-40 charger.
Initial test, when plugged into a 240V Dryer outlet (actually, my
Welder outlet), it was pumping 42A into the pack.
You can charge from dead pretty quick that way!
I'm now in the process of hooking up all the Rudman
Regulators. (Need to get a few more wires and connectors to finish it.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
At 07:01 PM 7/18/2007, Joseph T. wrote:
You need a Rudman Regulator for each individual battery, right?
Yup, and this being a Sparrow with very limited air flow, I'm also
hooking a little CPU fan to each reg to keep it cool.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About a week ago I was asking some questions about instrumentation.
I think I found my solution.
For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation system.
A $100 usb daq board: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
with touch screen
I have access to LabView at work and in my spare time I am developing
an .exe file to be used on the Pocket PC. See a screen shot at
http://tinyurl.com/2kvbqx
I will be able to monitor (in real time) Ah used, instantaneous AND
average Wh/mi, Bat amps, traction voltage, vacuum, 12V, with warning
lights and maybe buzzers for all.
The only problem is that it's a bit small. The gauges are a bit small
and real estate is a premium. The screen shot is about actual size of
the PPC screen. Cool thing is, is that I can modify it any time I
want to monitor whatever I want. I'll probably also add a button for
night time where it flips to another screen that is much darker.
If it works out and I'm happy (ie not too many crashes), I'm thinking
about adding another daq board and taking out the stock cluster and
replacing it with a Tablet PC, $300 ebay used (ie Compaq TC1000, 1Ghz,
touch screen, 30Gb) virtual cluster right behind the steering wheel.
I've decided that I'll only use it for monitoring and no control. I'm
a bit weary of a crash x2, windows and the eVdub in that order :-(
Brian
--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
So what chargers are appropriate for AGM batteries?
It's not so much of an appropriate "charger" -- it's a matter of setting
up whatever charger you have to produce the right charging algorithm.
Even a really crude, simple, stupid charger can do a good job if
carefully set up and monitored. Conversely, a very expensive
sophisticated charger can still screw up and fry the batteries if
programmed wrong.
Here's the bottom line: You need to know how many amphours you took out
of the batteries. Put back that amount, plus about 5% more. batteries
will be full charged, with just a bit more overcharging for equalization
and balancing.
Now, how do you find this point?
1. Amphour counting: Put back 105% of what was taken out.
2. Voltage level detect: Charge until voltage rises to about 2.45v/cell.
(Assumes the charger's current drops off as it approaches full
charge.)
3. DV/DT: Charge until voltage stops rising. (Assumes the charger
regulates current at the end of a charge cycle.)
4. Current level detect: Charge until current falls below about 2% of
the battery's amphour capacity. (Assumes the charger limits voltage
at the end of a charge cycle).
5. DI/DT: Charge until the current stops falling. (Assumes the charger
regulates voltage at the end of a charge).
6. Time-based: Charge for a fixed length of time. (Assumes the charging
current automatically tapers off when the battery nears full).
7. Temperature-based: Stop charging when battery temperature starts
to rise.
Automatic chargers generally use one or more of these methods. But you
can also do it manually, or set up a simple system to accomplish the
same result.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a very creative and visually effective screen layout giving a
lot of information in a small space. Perhaps thy could change color
for "out of desired range" conditions?
Are you going to have problems with grounds on the daq board? Usually
the pack isn't grounded to the chassis and the 12v is. From the way I
read the specs, measuring the voltage on the traction pack and the
house battery will be a problem. But I have a lot to learn about this
stuff.
Thanks for sharing.
On 7/18/07, Brian Pikkula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
About a week ago I was asking some questions about instrumentation.
I think I found my solution.
For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation system.
A $100 usb daq board: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
with touch screen
I have access to LabView at work and in my spare time I am developing
an .exe file to be used on the Pocket PC. See a screen shot at
http://tinyurl.com/2kvbqx
I will be able to monitor (in real time) Ah used, instantaneous AND
average Wh/mi, Bat amps, traction voltage, vacuum, 12V, with warning
lights and maybe buzzers for all.
The only problem is that it's a bit small. The gauges are a bit small
and real estate is a premium. The screen shot is about actual size of
the PPC screen. Cool thing is, is that I can modify it any time I
want to monitor whatever I want. I'll probably also add a button for
night time where it flips to another screen that is much darker.
If it works out and I'm happy (ie not too many crashes), I'm thinking
about adding another daq board and taking out the stock cluster and
replacing it with a Tablet PC, $300 ebay used (ie Compaq TC1000, 1Ghz,
touch screen, 30Gb) virtual cluster right behind the steering wheel.
I've decided that I'll only use it for monitoring and no control. I'm
a bit weary of a crash x2, windows and the eVdub in that order :-(
Brian
--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
--- End Message ---
