EV Digest 7041

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Zivan (NG2?)
        by "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Car wash
        by "Sam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Car wash
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
        by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Fast Charging
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
        by Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) ScienceDaily: New Flexible Plastic Solar Panels Are Inexpensive And Easy 
To Make
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
        by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Main Fuse
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
        by "brougham Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Main Fuse
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Simple Controller
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 26) forklift battery removal?
        by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
        by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Simple Controller
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) Re: Simple Controller
        by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 30) Re: Simple Controller
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 31) Re: forklift battery removal?
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
That is the most succinct description of charge control I've seen! An
amplification of one of your points, having a timer on the charger can
be a butt saver. If all else fails or the monitor gets distracted, at
least the cooking time is limited.

On 7/18/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joseph T. wrote:
> So what chargers are appropriate for AGM batteries?

It's not so much of an appropriate "charger" -- it's a matter of setting
up whatever charger you have to produce the right charging algorithm.
Even a really crude, simple, stupid charger can do a good job if
carefully set up and monitored. Conversely, a very expensive
sophisticated charger can still screw up and fry the batteries if
programmed wrong.

Here's the bottom line: You need to know how many amphours you took out
of the batteries. Put back that amount, plus about 5% more. batteries
will be full charged, with just a bit more overcharging for equalization
and balancing.

Now, how do you find this point?

1. Amphour counting: Put back 105% of what was taken out.

2. Voltage level detect: Charge until voltage rises to about 2.45v/cell.
    (Assumes the charger's current drops off as it approaches full
    charge.)

3. DV/DT: Charge until voltage stops rising. (Assumes the charger
    regulates current at the end of a charge cycle.)

4. Current level detect: Charge until current falls below about 2% of
    the battery's amphour capacity. (Assumes the charger limits voltage
    at the end of a charge cycle).

5. DI/DT: Charge until the current stops falling. (Assumes the charger
    regulates voltage at the end of a charge).

6. Time-based: Charge for a fixed length of time. (Assumes the charging
    current automatically tapers off when the battery nears full).

7. Temperature-based: Stop charging when battery temperature starts
    to rise.

Automatic chargers generally use one or more of these methods. But you
can also do it manually, or set up a simple system to accomplish the
same result.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net




--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be careful with your PC selection as most TabletPCs are not touch
sensitive (they usually require a special pen). Make sure it states
"touch sensitive" or "touch screen" in the eBay ad.
I'm using a Fujitsu Stylistic 3500 pen tablet (it can register my
finger pokes as mouse clicks) from ebay with the serial output from
the PakTrakr Multi Battery Monitor / Battery Pack Monitor . I have a
video of a PowerPoint draft/prototype here:
http://evorbust.blogspot.com/2007/07/7-01-2007.html

I'll still rely on old school gauges until the system proves itself.
However, I will be using the GPS speedometer function of the
RoadRunner CarPC program I'll be running on the tablet.
Slideshow here:
http://evorbust.blogspot.com/2007/07/7-01-2007.html

PS.
The screens will lock while driving so as to not allow interacting
while driving.
Manny
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

On 7/18/07, Brian Pikkula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
About a week ago I was asking some questions about instrumentation.

I think I found my solution.

For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation system.

A $100 usb daq board:  http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
with touch screen

I have access to LabView at work and in my spare time I am developing
an .exe file to be used on the Pocket PC.   See a screen shot at
http://tinyurl.com/2kvbqx

I will be able to monitor (in real time) Ah used, instantaneous AND
average Wh/mi, Bat amps, traction voltage, vacuum, 12V, with warning
lights and maybe buzzers for all.

The only problem is that it's a bit small.  The gauges are a bit small
and real estate is a premium.  The screen shot is about actual size of
the PPC screen.  Cool thing is, is that I can modify it any time I
want to monitor whatever I want.  I'll probably also add a button for
night time where it flips to another screen that is much darker.

If it works out and I'm happy (ie not too many crashes), I'm thinking
about adding another daq board and taking out the stock cluster and
replacing it with a Tablet PC, $300 ebay used (ie Compaq TC1000, 1Ghz,
touch screen, 30Gb) virtual cluster right behind the steering wheel.

I've decided that I'll only use it for monitoring and no control.  I'm
a bit weary of a crash x2, windows and the eVdub in that order :-(

Brian

--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.




--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--------------Boundary-00=_FLJEN0X1VA4000000000"
X-Mailer: IncrediMail (5653017)
From: "Sam--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:02:10 -0700
From: BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Doh!
Copy/Paste error.

Here's the proper link:

> video of a PowerPoint draft/prototype here:
http://evorbust.blogspot.com/2007/07/ev-conversion-7-14-2007.html

...


Manny
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com
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Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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From: Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:29:22 -0700
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu

Also, check out Carman for Linux:
http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/
Being designed for ICE, gets the data from the car's OBD port.

Ian

On Jul 18, 2007, at 8:15 PM, Brian Pikkula wrote:

> About a week ago I was asking some questions about instrumentation.
>
> I think I found my solution.
>
> For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation  
> system.
>
> A $100 usb daq board:  http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
> A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
> with touch screen
>
> I have access to LabView at work and in my spare time I am developing
> an .exe file to be used on the Pocket PC.   See a screen shot at
> http://tinyurl.com/2kvbqx
>
> I will be able to monitor (in real time) Ah used, instantaneous AND
> average Wh/mi, Bat amps, traction voltage, vacuum, 12V, with warning
> lights and maybe buzzers for all.
>
> The only problem is that it's a bit small.  The gauges are a bit small
> and real estate is a premium.  The screen shot is about actual size of
> the PPC screen.  Cool thing is, is that I can modify it any time I
> want to monitor whatever I want.  I'll probably also add a button for
> night time where it flips to another screen that is much darker.
>
> If it works out and I'm happy (ie not too many crashes), I'm thinking
> about adding another daq board and taking out the stock cluster and
> replacing it with a Tablet PC, $300 ebay used (ie Compaq TC1000, 1Ghz,
> touch screen, 30Gb) virtual cluster right behind the steering wheel.
>
> I've decided that I'll only use it for monitoring and no control.  I'm
> a bit weary of a crash x2, windows and the eVdub in that order :-(
>
> Brian
>
> -- 
> Brian in TX
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
> http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
> It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
> really quite busy.
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:34:17 -0700
From: BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

You may also want to check out Fusion Brain:
http://www.fusioncontrolcentre.com/FusionStore/catalog/index.php
1/2 the price, plus they have a following at mp3car.com's forums, a
CarPC enthusiast community.

On 7/18/07, Brian Pikkula <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
> A $100 usb daq board:  http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
> A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
> with touch screen
...
> --
> Brian in TX
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
> http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
> It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
> really quite busy.


Manny
-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 23:43:07 -0700
From: BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nice.
Too bad my 71-74 VW based car isn't even OBD-0 compliant...LOL

I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.  Be sure to check out
Doug's eGhia implementation on a Sharp Zaurus?
http://tinyurl.com/33dtrf

http://ev.dougandtomo.com/Bloghia/2DB18481-C9A9-44FB-B7FB-7C0E9EF7B7F0.html

Manny
-- 
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

On 7/18/07, Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Also, check out Carman for Linux:
> http://openbossa.indt.org/carman/
> Being designed for ICE, gets the data from the car's OBD port.
>
> Ian
>
> On Jul 18, 2007, at 8:15 PM, Brian Pikkula wrote:
>
> > About a week ago I was asking some questions about instrumentation.
> >
> > I think I found my solution.
> >
> > For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation
> > system.
> >
> > A $100 usb daq board:  http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
> > A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi, 400Mhz)
> > with touch screen
> >
> > I have access to LabView at work and in my spare time I am developing
> > an .exe file to be used on the Pocket PC.   See a screen shot at
> > http://tinyurl.com/2kvbqx
> >
> > I will be able to monitor (in real time) Ah used, instantaneous AND
> > average Wh/mi, Bat amps, traction voltage, vacuum, 12V, with warning
> > lights and maybe buzzers for all.
> >
> > The only problem is that it's a bit small.  The gauges are a bit small
> > and real estate is a premium.  The screen shot is about actual size of
> > the PPC screen.  Cool thing is, is that I can modify it any time I
> > want to monitor whatever I want.  I'll probably also add a button for
> > night time where it flips to another screen that is much darker.
> >
> > If it works out and I'm happy (ie not too many crashes), I'm thinking
> > about adding another daq board and taking out the stock cluster and
> > replacing it with a Tablet PC, $300 ebay used (ie Compaq TC1000, 1Ghz,
> > touch screen, 30Gb) virtual cluster right behind the steering wheel.
> >
> > I've decided that I'll only use it for monitoring and no control.  I'm
> > a bit weary of a crash x2, windows and the eVdub in that order :-(
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > --
> > Brian in TX
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
> > http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
> > It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
> > really quite busy.
> >
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 01:15:26 -0700
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What will it take to get White Zombie into the 10's?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
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John Wayland wrote:

> I was wrong...Tim was right. The launch suffered from excessive wheel 
> spin and we lost a quick 1/10th second in the 60 ft....that would have 
> made that 11.4 run an 11.3 run right there. Once the tires started 
> spinning there was no stopping the hp from taking over and the car 
> continued to spin the tires way past the 60 ft. and past 100 ft., too. 

> Would it take? A better decision by me last Saturday night!

What it would take then in this situation is even rudimentary
traction control, ensuring grip at any time. Then you could
dial max motor current, no problem.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:12:16 +0800

For example, would this work as a breaker in an EV?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Breaker-3-Pole-Eaton-Heinemann-GJ3-160- 
amp_W0QQitemZ150043572855QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

-Ian
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:17:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello Ian,

A AC breaker at the same voltage of the DC source, does not have the larger 
contact pads and spacing as a DC breaker.  The spacing is contacts spacing 
is wider in a DC breaker, so when a DC breaker is activated, there will be 
less arc over.

The DC breaker is larger, may have arc suppression and a vent screen for air 
flow as some large AC breakers have.

We have install 120/240 AC thermo trip breakers, (do not use magnetic trip) 
on 28 volt systems in a electronics lab that has not problems.  The AC 
voltage rating of the breaker is about 4 times the rating of the DC voltage, 
which been working fine for over 20 years now.

On a 120 VDC system, you may get by with a 480 or 600 VAC breaker, but these 
are large K, L, and M frame breakers.

Also the ampere rating of the circuit is a factor.  A breaker ampere rating 
should be 125% over the actual ampere you are using.  This is about 16 amps 
on a 20 amp C/B and 75 amps on a 100 amp C/B.  This is the allow maximum 
ampere we can use on rewire. We normally install at the 200% rating on new 
work.

On a 20 amp 120 VAC C/B, the 200% rating would be about 10 amps for AC 
loads.  For DC loads on a A/C C/B, it is best to cut this to about 5 amps 
for a longer life.

Roland










----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:12 AM
Subject: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?


> For example, would this work as a breaker in an EV?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Breaker-3-Pole-Eaton-Heinemann-GJ3-160-
> amp_W0QQitemZ150043572855QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> -Ian
>
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Car wash
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:33:10 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        format=flowed;
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Can't see your message, use plain text only.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: Car wash
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--------------Boundary-00=_FLJEN0X1VA4000000000"
X-Mailer: IncrediMail (5653017)
From: "Sam--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:34:41 -0600
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
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SquareD QO series breakers are rated for 125vac, or 50 vdc.  They are
some of the few AC breakers that even have an DC rating that I am
aware of.  So.... beware using AC breakers for DC.

Z

On 7/19/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Ian,
>
> A AC breaker at the same voltage of the DC source, does not have the larger
> contact pads and spacing as a DC breaker.  The spacing is contacts spacing
> is wider in a DC breaker, so when a DC breaker is activated, there will be
> less arc over.
>
> The DC breaker is larger, may have arc suppression and a vent screen for air
> flow as some large AC breakers have.
>
> We have install 120/240 AC thermo trip breakers, (do not use magnetic trip)
> on 28 volt systems in a electronics lab that has not problems.  The AC
> voltage rating of the breaker is about 4 times the rating of the DC voltage,
> which been working fine for over 20 years now.
>
> On a 120 VDC system, you may get by with a 480 or 600 VAC breaker, but these
> are large K, L, and M frame breakers.
>
> Also the ampere rating of the circuit is a factor.  A breaker ampere rating
> should be 125% over the actual ampere you are using.  This is about 16 amps
> on a 20 amp C/B and 75 amps on a 100 amp C/B.  This is the allow maximum
> ampere we can use on rewire. We normally install at the 200% rating on new
> work.
>
> On a 20 amp 120 VAC C/B, the 200% rating would be about 10 amps for AC
> loads.  For DC loads on a A/C C/B, it is best to cut this to about 5 amps
> for a longer life.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:12 AM
> Subject: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
>
>
> > For example, would this work as a breaker in an EV?
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Breaker-3-Pole-Eaton-Heinemann-GJ3-160-
> > amp_W0QQitemZ150043572855QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > -Ian
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Thought this would be of interest to those making
battery balancers,
http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an1333.pdf

Intersil ISL9208
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:53:57 -0400
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: LionEV battery packs and vehicles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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It's been two days.. gimme gimme! :-)

On 7/16/07, John A. Evans - N0HJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just got a response from Paula at AmpMobile Conversions - she said
> that they are supposed to receive pricing info in a day or two, so even
> those who are going to distribute them don't know yet.  I love the specs
> but price may be a hangup for me.  It may also be nice to sit back and
> wait to see how they work out for others first before I jump in.
>
> john
>
>

PS: Based on their finished prices for the Accent, they are charging a
$15k - $20k premium for everything. Labor and parts. I'd say that
bodes well for the pricing! Or at least, one hopes...

...unless they are getting rollers at some phenomenal deal. Details!!!! :-)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:31:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: Brian Pikkula
> For about $225 I can have a moderately tricked out instrumentation
> system. A $100 usb daq board:
> http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25
> A ~$125 (ebay used) Pocket PC (ie Toshiba Pocket PC E750 WiFi,
> 400Mhz) with touch screen

Sounds hopeful! But there are a few big problems to overcome when
using "indoor" lab equipment and computers in a car:

1. Isolation: The propulsion pack is isolated from ground. Most
   equipment assumes the voltages to be measured are grounded.

2. Noise: EVs are among the most electrically noisy environments
   you will ever encounter. Computers and measuring equipment goes
   nuts or takes bad data.

3. Environmental: Cars have temperature extremes, shock, vibration,
   dirt, bugs, water condensation, etc. that destroys unprotected
   electronics.

If you can beat these problems, you'll be well on your way to a solution.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:38:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fast Charging
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

From: John G. Lussmyer
>> You need a Rudman Regulator for each individual battery, right?
> Yup, and this being a Sparrow with very limited air flow, I'm also 
> hooking a little CPU fan to each reg to keep it cool.

I think I mentioned this before to John, but for the benefit of the rest of the 
list...

You can replace the special resistor on the Rudman regulators with a standard 
10w or 20w ceramic tube resistor. This type consists of a hollow ceramic tube, 
with the resistance wire wound on it, a terminal on each end, and a ceramic 
glase over it for insulation.

Route a copper tube through the center of each one. Pump water (or oil or 
something) through them all. This carries away the heat neatly, with no need 
for fans or heatsinks.

You can also have a single temperature sensor in the water line coming from the 
last resistor. When the water reaches "X" degrees, you can use this as an 
indication that some (or many) regulators are stuck "fully on" and so turn off 
the charger.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="_dc32fd61-ff85-4818-bfb4-80c54b8da94f_"
From: Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: 4002 vs. ADC 8"
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:38:09 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_dc32fd61-ff85-4818-bfb4-80c54b8da94f_
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Paul -
=20
I purchased the VW truck from Don.  Sending him the check this AM and arran=
ging shipping....guess I'm comitted now!!!
=20
Mike> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: 4002 vs. ADC 8"> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 
2=
007 18:05:41 -0700> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> > Hi Jim!> > On Jul 17, 2007,=
 at 4:14 PM, Jim Husted wrote:> > > Man you guys are sticklers for the fact=
s, lol. Sorry> > I didn't have an MTC at the house to weigh when I was> > p=
osting, LMAO. The basic Presto 7.2" motors lie in> > that 80 lbs range, eit=
her that or I'm stronger than I> > look ;^) I'm gonna have to weigh my MKB =
12 brush core> > as I thought that was about as long a 7 as Prestolite> > m=
ade. Anyway the MTC must be a tad longer than my> > usual 7 I build, so my =
bad 8^)> > Its about 17 1/8 inches long (from end bell to end of shaft), if=
 that > helps. It has 8 brushes. I also know (just measured) that the motor=
 > case is only 7 inches in diameter (and my spec sheet tells me 7 1/8 > in=
ch!)> > > My ADC book shows the 8's at 125 lbs and so I'm> > quoting there.=
 The MTC isn't a lift motor and> > although I've seen them (Dutchman has a =
new one) I'm> > not super versed in them. FWIW I miss the old> > Prestolite=
 days 8^(> > I've noticed that motor numbers vary slightly depending on wha=
t > "official" paper you look at. (yours must be wrong, LMAO!) I think > I'=
m going with the ADC 8 inch this time - but just to do something > differen=
t. I've had good success with the old Prestolite motors (plus > they're pre=
tty ;-) In the case in question its pushing a 3400 lb. VW > Pickup around.>=
 > [snip]> > > Great to have seen ya down at the track last weekend.> > Had=
 fun, hope this helps (I'm sure I'll hear about it> > if it doesn't) hehee.=
 8^P> > You'll hear about it one way or the other! We need more EV discussi=
on > on this list. I aim to add some. I just ordered a Zilla controller to =
> add some more EV to my life.> > And... it was great seeing you at the tra=
ck this past weekend too!> > To everyone out there with an EV or a serious =
interest in building an > EV - you *really* need to attend one or more EVen=
ts. You get to see a > range of EVs (not all the EVs this past weekend wher=
e racers.) You > get to meet the people, ranging from owners and builders t=
o racers > and hardware designers (just watch out for Jim <g>.) Its a lot o=
f fun > and a feast for the eyes, even if you have already built an EV or >=
 two. I've still got a bit of an EV buzz from last weekend (and I was > jus=
t barely getting over the one from the Greenwood show.) I highly > recommen=
d you just get out and experience it, even if you have to > drive your gass=
er a few hundred miles to attend one!> > Paul "neon" Gooch>=20
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!=A0=A0
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=3Dchick_wlmailtextlink=

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X-Originating-IP: [199.209.144.221]
From: Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: 4002 vs. ADC 8--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:04:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Rod Hower
> Thought this would be of interest to those making battery balancers
> http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an1333.pdf
> Intersil ISL9208

There's a lot of good information here. It's good reading for anyone 
contemplating building a balancer, as it covers issues that most beginners will 
miss.

"The only thing new is the history you don't know yet." -- Harry Truman
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:23:59 -0700
From: john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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also OLPC  (sub $200 laptops) are coming soon.
They might do rather well in the car environment if kept dry and away from 
surges.
(sorry if somebody already posted this, I seem to have missed some posts)
JF

BrownGassyTurd wrote:
> You may also want to check out Fusion Brain:
> http://www.fusioncontrolcentre.com/FusionStore/catalog/index.php
> 1/2 the price, plus they have a following at mp3car.com's forums, a
> CarPC enthusiast community.
> 
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:48:14 -0700
Subject: ScienceDaily: New Flexible Plastic Solar Panels Are Inexpensive And 
Easy To Make
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To: Ev List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED],
        "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070719011151.htm


  New Flexible Plastic Solar Panels Are Inexpensive And Easy To Make

  Science Daily  Researchers at New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT) 
have developed an inexpensive solar cell that can be painted or printed 
on flexible plastic sheets. "The process is simple," said lead 
researcher and author Somenath Mitra, PhD, professor and acting chair of 
NJIT's Department of Chemistry and Environmental Sciences. "Someday 
homeowners will even be able to print sheets of these solar cells with 
inexpensive home-based inkjet printers. Consumers can then slap the 
finished product on a wall, roof or billboard to create their own power 
stations."

  NJIT researchers develop inexpensive, easy process to produce solar 
panels. (Credit: New Jersey Institute of Technology)

  Harvesting energy directly from abundant solar radiation using solar 
cells is increasingly emerging as a major component of future global 
energy strategy, said Mitra. Yet, when it comes to harnessing renewable 
energy, challenges remain. Expensive, large-scale infrastructures such 
as wind mills or dams are necessary to drive renewable energy sources, 
such as wind or hydroelectric power plants. Purified silicon, also used 
for making computer chips, is a core material for fabricating 
conventional solar cells. However, the processing of a material such as 
purified silicon is beyond the reach of most consumers.

  "Developing organic solar cells from polymers, however, is a cheap and 
potentially simpler alternative," said Mitra. "We foresee a great deal 
of interest in our work because solar cells can be inexpensively printed 
or simply painted on exterior building walls and/or roof tops. Imagine 
some day driving in your hybrid car with a solar panel painted on the 
roof, which is producing electricity to drive the engine. The 
opportunities are endless. "

  The science goes something like this. When sunlight falls on an organic 
solar cell, the energy generates positive and negative charges. If the 
charges can be separated and sent to different electrodes, then a 
current flows. If not, the energy is wasted. Link cells electronically 
and the cells form what is called a panel, like the ones currently seen 
on most rooftops. The size of both the cell and panels vary. Cells can 
range from 1 millimeter to several feet; panels have no size limits.

  The solar cell developed at NJIT uses a carbon nanotubes complex, which 
by the way, is a molecular configuration of carbon in a cylindrical 
shape. The name is derived from the tube's miniscule size. Scientists 
estimate nanotubes to be 50,000 times smaller than a human hair. 
Nevertheless, just one nanotube can conduct current better than any 
conventional electrical wire. "Actually, nanotubes are significantly 
better conductors than copper," Mitra added.

  Mitra and his research team took the carbon nanotubes and combined them 
with tiny carbon Buckyballs (known as fullerenes) to form snake-like 
structures. Buckyballs trap electrons, although they can't make 
electrons flow. Add sunlight to excite the polymers, and the buckyballs 
will grab the electrons. Nanotubes, behaving like copper wires, will 
then be able to make the electrons or current flow.

  "Using this unique combination in an organic solar cell recipe can 
enhance the efficiency of future painted-on solar cells," said Mitra. 
"Someday, I hope to see this process become an inexpensive energy 
alternative for households around the world."

  "Fullerene single wall carbon nanotube complex for polymer bulk 
heterojunction photovoltaic cells," published June 21, 2007 in the 
Journal of Materials Chemistry by the Royal Society of Chemistry, 
details the process.

  Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by New 
Jersey Institute of Technology.

   


www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:18:44 -0400
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Virtual Instrumentation Solution
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Disposition: inline

Lee,

> 2. Noise: EVs are among the most electrically noisy environments
>    you will ever encounter. Computers and measuring equipment goes
>    nuts or takes bad data.
>

I was wondering... if you shielded and twisted all of your cable runs,
and made your battery boxes Faraday tight, would that eliminate some
of the noise trouble? I realize you get EMF from the motor and
controller.. could that be limited as well with a faraday shield
surrounding, or perhaps at least shielding in the right directions,
the engine compartment?

--Timothy
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Main Fuse
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:40:53 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

(I can't reply to (show) the original thread on this webmail)

Check the data sheet on your fuse used for 1600A peak, most will do several 
times their ratings for 30 seconds on acceleration.  I usually use 350A 
Ferraz or a big fuse by Littelfuse and havn't blown one yet in 72-120V 2400 
- 4000lb vehicles and my peak accel current is 500-600 amps sometimes (for 
10-30 seconds on accel).  Look at the fuse curves so you won't have to buy 
such an expensive fuse but make sure it'll break DC at your voltage.

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark, E-Porcshe 914

_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "brougham Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New battery balancing interface IC for Li-ion
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:31:32 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        charset="UTF-8"
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From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: Rod Hower
> > Thought this would be of interest to those making battery balancers
> > http://www.intersil.com/data/an/an1333.pdf
> > Intersil ISL9208
>
> There's a lot of good information here. It's good reading for anyone
contemplating building a balancer, as it covers issues that most beginners
will miss.

Using an NPN transistor with a gain of 100, the ISL9208 regulator can supply
up to 35mA to an external load and maintain the output at 3.3V ±10%

Really 10%?

Bro
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Main Fuse
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:13:42 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello Mark,

See Fuse Info at http://www.fusecoinc.com

Click Application Information

Page down to DC circuit Protection

It will list type of fuses for different HP motors @ Ampere for different 
time constants and let-thru tables.

You can also compare the current in AC motors to DC motors and there circuit 
protection.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 11:40 AM
Subject: Main Fuse


> (I can't reply to (show) the original thread on this webmail)
>
> Check the data sheet on your fuse used for 1600A peak, most will do 
> several
> times their ratings for 30 seconds on acceleration.  I usually use 350A
> Ferraz or a big fuse by Littelfuse and havn't blown one yet in 72-120V 
> 2400
> - 4000lb vehicles and my peak accel current is 500-600 amps sometimes (for
> 10-30 seconds on accel).  Look at the fuse curves so you won't have to buy
> such an expensive fuse but make sure it'll break DC at your voltage.
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
> Mark, E-Porcshe 914
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:38:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Simple Controller
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemade
controllers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I use
a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power SCR?
Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr big
enough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for the
simplest solid state possible.
Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have
missed this explanation.
Thanks,
Paul
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: forklift battery removal?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

My electric forklift has 18 cells to make it 36 volts.

Can each cell be removed individually?
How heavy is each cell?

Would I need a hoist?

Thanks

Michael Golub


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
 
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I don't know if any other breakers have dual rating (the QO are the only ones 
I'm familiar with also) but the AIC (Amp Interrupting Capacity - I think it 
stands for) is half of the A.C. rating (5K A instead of 10K A if memory 
serves).  I think this means that heavy currents could still weld them shut... 
use caution!!!


----- Original Message ----
From: Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:34:41 AM
Subject: Re: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?

SquareD QO series breakers are rated for 125vac, or 50 vdc.  They are
some of the few AC breakers that even have an DC rating that I am
aware of.  So.... beware using AC breakers for DC.

Z

On 7/19/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Ian,
>
> A AC breaker at the same voltage of the DC source, does not have the larger
> contact pads and spacing as a DC breaker.  The spacing is contacts spacing
> is wider in a DC breaker, so when a DC breaker is activated, there will be
> less arc over.
>
> The DC breaker is larger, may have arc suppression and a vent screen for air
> flow as some large AC breakers have.
>
> We have install 120/240 AC thermo trip breakers, (do not use magnetic trip)
> on 28 volt systems in a electronics lab that has not problems.  The AC
> voltage rating of the breaker is about 4 times the rating of the DC voltage,
> which been working fine for over 20 years now.
>
> On a 120 VDC system, you may get by with a 480 or 600 VAC breaker, but these
> are large K, L, and M frame breakers.
>
> Also the ampere rating of the circuit is a factor.  A breaker ampere rating
> should be 125% over the actual ampere you are using.  This is about 16 amps
> on a 20 amp C/B and 75 amps on a 100 amp C/B.  This is the allow maximum
> ampere we can use on rewire. We normally install at the 200% rating on new
> work.
>
> On a 20 amp 120 VAC C/B, the 200% rating would be about 10 amps for AC
> loads.  For DC loads on a A/C C/B, it is best to cut this to about 5 amps
> for a longer life.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 5:12 AM
> Subject: Are AC circuit breakers OK with DC?
>
>
> > For example, would this work as a breaker in an EV?
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/Breaker-3-Pole-Eaton-Heinemann-GJ3-160-
> > amp_W0QQitemZ150043572855QQihZ005QQcategoryZ104232QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > -Ian
> >
> >
>
>






       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's 
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. 
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:56:12 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Simple Controller
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

what's an SCR?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I know controllers have been beat to death here. From Zillas to homemade
> controllers. But can someone please sum it all up for me. Why can't I use
> a PWM signal, amplified through a motor driver to switch a high power SCR?
> Is this how the old SCR controllers work so can I just use an scr big
> enough for the voltage and current I want to handle? Just looking for the
> simplest solid state possible.
> Im sure everyone is sick of controller talk for a while but I must have
> missed this explanation.
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>   
Subject: Re: Simple Controller
From: Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:10:33 -0500
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 20:56 +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> what's an SCR?


It's a "Silicon Controlled Rectifier".  Controllers can be built with
them, and in fact for a long time they were the only practical way to
build a high-current solid-state electronic motor controller. I believe
they're still the most power-dense form of silicon switch.

The trouble is, though they're easy to turn on, they're hard to turn off
in a DC application.

More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_controlled_rectifier
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/5.html
http://www.play-hookey.com/semiconductors/scr.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+controlled+rectifier



-- 
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Simple Controller
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:12:11 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        format=flowed;
        charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=response
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Funny.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Simple Controller


> what's an SCR?
> 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: forklift battery removal?
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 14:17:04 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Mike,

I have work these type of batteries.  They may be welded on lead link 
together which takes a hole saw, but without the teeth except for a planer 
blade, something like a wood plug drill.

The potting compound is remove and pull up by the cell sides with clamp on 
tools.

It takes a long pencil flame with battery lead sticks to weld the links on 
after the maintenance is done on these cells, which can be broke down, 
separator replacements, grid replacement and replacing the battery acid with 
the same specific gravity reading that was taken out.

Normally you need a battery shop to do this maintenance that has plastic or 
glass cleaning tanks for inserting the cell grids right away or they will 
began to sulfate. Have battery acid disposal containers, sulfuric acid and 
distill water storage.

You need all the safety requirements and protective gear to do this job.

You need a lot of air exchange in the battery maintenance rooms.  We have 
two large 3 foot diameter aircraft type fan blades in the ceiling that can 
exchange the air in less then 10 seconds.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:03 PM
Subject: forklift battery removal?


> My electric forklift has 18 cells to make it 36 volts.
>
> Can each cell be removed individually?
> How heavy is each cell?
>
> Would I need a hoist?
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael Golub
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Got a little couch potato?
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
>
> 

--- End Message ---

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