EV Digest 7062

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) parallel batteries
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Corded mower
        by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires- how about B381's ? 
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: An experiment - a scam??
        by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: parallel batteries
        by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
        by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Cooling a Netgain Motor...
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Corded mower
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 13) EV-1C 450 Amp controller
        by "Brian Pikkula" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: EV-1C 450 Amp controller
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Corded mower
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: EV-1C 450 Amp controller
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Corded mower
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Corded mower
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) added few vids on YouTube...
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Battery for a Bicycle?
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) DIY Electric Car Forums
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Series/Parallel switching (was Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System 
voltage)
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As I understand it, lead acid batteries work okay being in parallel and NiMH 
don't work well in parallel.  What about NiCad and the Lithium type?  How many 
are too many to parallel in each case?  What is the limiting factor in 
paralleling them?

Thanks,
Brian
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- This probably isn't the motor controllers themselves generating the sound, so it doesn't matter how they are mounted. It sounds like the switching frequency is around 10khz which is a reasonable frequency, unfortunately it's within hearing range. The sound is likely emanating from the motors themselves, and it's hard to isolate them. If the noise was objectionable, then they would have to re-engineer the controllers to switch at above 15khz. I use 18khz in most of my designs so far.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Corded mower


Ok. Dan .. I admit. It does have ringing noise when driving in low speeds. It is thou because the motor controllers are attached to chassis on that proto. The chassis works as speaker for them. We tested it with insulation parts. That noise will not be present in the production models.

It is quite silent. If you listen carefully you can hear birds and other surrounding noises in the background. The camera boosts the microphone levels if there is little noise and the mic is directed to the mowler.

But.. better you come and ride on it. So you know then.

I have to check if I have somewhere the noise level tests.. how many dB at what distance.. That's perhaps easier for you to compare.

-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
4:05 into the video it's the clearest. fairly clear high pitch ringing.
I tried to get the audio out for a frequency analysis but it's asf and I didn't have software for that.
I'm pretty sure the ringing is there

Dan

Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Read the specs from the site. Those are servos.

Actually all parts are common industrial components and can be found from cataloques => can have spareparts easily and cheaply.

Oh.. but isn't i *DAN* .. sure.. I did not hear any ringing noise? Did any one else ? Perhapes it's not the device that's ringing... eh.. ;)

There have been talks about bringing this version also out for professional use in normal lawns. No need for such accurate grass length measurements.

For the original problem... I think there could be a chance to make a conversion kit for certain OEM mowlers too. Prices will be interesting with Lions but hey.. quantities are what they are.

The battery pack exisits already and could be sold as is. It can be 8x 150/400 Ah (LiFePO4) or 7x 200/600 Ah (LiCoO). 3,2 kW charger and IP44 casing.


-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
cool. isn't that ringing annoying in the long run though?
what frequency is that at? 6000Hz?
no caps in the controller?

Dan

Jukka Järvinen skrev:
I was involved in development of this EV mowler. And it operates 8 hours on batteries.

http://www.actioneco.com/

So I would say it IS doable with batteries too..

-Jukka


David Hankins kirjoitti:
The problem with batteries is that it takes about 2.5 to 3 hours to do the
lawn. I don't think I can get that many batteries onboard without
overloading it.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Corded mower

You are looking at at least a 5 or 7 HP electric motor I'd bet.  That
means 240vac, 40A circuit or more -- not a regular extension cord. If
you use a regular AC induction motor, it also tends to overheat under
voltage drop -- so a 200 foot cord is bad news.

I'd highly recommend doing a battery electric instead of corded
electric for something like this. It'll be easier, and likely cheaper
too.

Z

On 6/8/07, David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm thinking about converting my riding lawn mower to a corded electric.

I have some ideas to deal with the cord. I was thinking about using one of those cord reel setups. We'll have to see how it holds up reeling under load. Or maybe a coiled cord affair with a mast on the mower and elevated attach point on the house. The farthest point is around 200'+ from the
plug.
I have almost an acre under grass and It will get kind of dicey out on the
edge where about a 1/3 acre chunk has a dozen trees on it.

The main question that I have is: The current ICE motor on it is a 19HP
Briggs. What HP electric motor do I need to replace that?

Thanks

David









--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm using the 185/70/14 on my 1977 240D Mercedes if that is any help.  They
seem to be wearing normally.  They did lower my gear ratio and my
hillclimbing improved.  The curb weight on the 240D is around 3000 pounds.
Lawrence Rhodes.....

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-07-25 at 13:11 -0400, Phil Marino wrote:
> This smells like a scam to me.

I don't think it's a scam, although I think he could have been more
up-front in his initial post about what he's doing. He wants the public
to pay for his EV project, and he's setting up what amounts to a me-too
site like so many others that have been successful in the past ... the
girl who wanted breast implants, the guy who threatened to butcher a
cute rabbit and eat it unless a sufficient level of donation was
received, etc. Experience has shown that these can work for those with
the nerve to try it, and whether we agree with the validity or morality
of the idea or not, an EV seems to be one of the best causes yet to
which I've seen it applied.

Whether or not it was a particularly good idea to [not very directly]
request monetary assistance from a community of people who 

A) mostly have worked very hard to afford our EV conversion projects and
B) have demonstrated ourselves to be mostly cheap penny-pinchers, ...

well, that may be less clear.  :-)



-- 
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,

One major limiting factor, regardless of chemistry, is that you can't
easily tell when one of the batteries is not working properly.  If it
happens to be paired up with a stronger battery, the pair will not
exhibit any symptoms until the weak battery is really toasted and causes
the strong battery to start failing.

In my Geo Prizm with 13 buddy pairs of Optima Yellow Tops, there are
several pairs with batteries that have very similar capacities (approx
38AH).  There are also several pairs where one of the batteries shows
significantly reduced capacity (8-12AH), and may have stressed the other
battery in the pair (21AH).  One pair (that seemed OK as a pair) actually
has one battery with half the capacity of the other battery in the pair
(19AH and 38AH respectively).

Ralph


[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> As I understand it, lead acid batteries work okay being in parallel and NiMH 
> don't work well in parallel.  What about NiCad and the Lithium type?  How 
> many are too many to parallel in each case?  What is the limiting factor in 
> paralleling them?
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian
> ---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Deb,

I'd suggest looking at John Bryan's Ghia:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/34

He uses 16 Optimas and has gotten very good results.  Notably, he claims
a range of 60 miles.

Ralph


Deb Hollenback writes:
> 
> I'm sticking with one motor to simply things.
> Let me make a rookie attempt to synthesize the info I've received:
> 
> GVW = 2645 lb
> less curb weight 1918 = 727lb
> less me and pooch at 200 = 527lb
> add in ICE removal (some debate but say 400lb) = 927lb
> less Warp Impulse 9" at 135lb = 729lb
> less controller/cables/etc at 100 lb (SWAG) = 629lb
> 
> So 629lb for batteries.  Let's go with the Orbital numbers Jeff
> supplied, at 41lbs each.  629/41 gives 15ish -say 16 - batteries. 
> Sounds like there is plenty of room for them.  Will probably need to
> boost the suspension some?
> 
> So 16 batts x 12V gives me 192V (sound familiar Doug?)
> One number I'm missing is KWhr for a comparable Ghia - I'll use 300 -
> does someone have a better number?
> 
> For range:  Jeff projects the Optimas actually get 34ah, times my 192v
> gives 6.5kwh, 80% of that is 5.2kwh.
> 
> 5.2kwh/300wh = a range of 17 miles.  Am I in the ballpark here?  I
> guess, like everyone else, I was hoping for better range, but I really
> would like to use AGMs.
> 
> Rich, could you tell me more about the Dekas you are using (model #,
> and your Ghia's kwhr, range)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>        
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Need a vacation? Get great deals
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> http://travel.yahoo.com/
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ed.

I have this Dayton 6 inch blower fan on my GE motor with the solid cover and 
when I have the GE motor remove for maintenance, I have the same blower fan 
on the NetGain motor mounted over the brush cover screen.

On the GE motor it is bolted directly to the solid brush cover.  On the 
NetGain motor it is bolted to a segment of 10 inch diameter tubing, that I 
had a steel yard cut a 4.5 inch piece of a 10 inch OD 10 gage tubing.

The 4.5 inch width is the width of the screen plus to the front surface of 
the motor.  I cut a segment of this tubing, which may be about 6 to 7 inches 
long that has about the same curve of the motor.

This metal segment does not set right on the brush screen.  I use a 1/8 inch 
piece of rubber which I glue to the bottom of the segment.  Once you get the 
metal segment and rubber pad size and do a dry fit placing the front edge 
even with the front of the motor.

The Warp 9 is about 9-5/8 inch OD.  Adding 1/8 inch rubber pad, makes it 
9-3/4 inch OD, so the 10 inch OD tubing which is about 9-7/8 inside will 
spring a little tighter when you cut the length of segment that you need.

While you are picking up the tubing you need, also pick up about 12 inches 
of flat steel bar which is about 2 inches wide by 1/8 inch thick.

When you dry fit the tubing segment and rubber pad on the screen brush 
holder making the edge even with the front of the motor. You then can make 
two metal tabs out of this 2 x 1/8 inch flat bar, that will extend down over 
one of the top bolt holes that is the face of the motor.   This is how I 
bolt the base and fan unit to the motor.

When welding these tabs to the curve segment, weld them just a little less 
than 90 degrees from this metal base, so when you bolt this unit on, the 
metal base and rubber pad will put a slight down ward pressure instead of 
spring up a bit.

The Dayton fan I have has about a 3 inch by 2 inch square mounting hole with 
two mounting flanges.  You can either bent these flanges and cut a slight 
curve in side duct to fit the curve of the adapter you built.  This method 
is easily making another curve adapter which was a piece of 1 inch thick 
motor insulation material, that I pick up from the motor shop.  You can 
drill and tapped this insulation board.

The blower fan is place over the curve segment and mark out the area for 
cutting a square hole the air inlet.  Also fit another 1/8 rubber pad, that 
you make a gasket from which fits between the base of the blower fan and 
metal segment.  Make the fan rubber gasket a little bit larger then the fan 
exhaust opening, so you get a good seal.

The Dayton Blower Fan I use can be either a 12 VDC or 120 VAC if you have a 
120 VAC Inverter like I have.  I use one of those GM weather proof plugs 
that you can get from auto parts store, so all you have to do is unplug and 
remove the two front bolts on the front mounting tabs.

I tapped 4 or 6 mounting holes for  10/32 x 3/8 inch long machine hex head 
screws for the base of the fan.  This length of screw is about right, so it 
does not go all the way through the rubber pad that is between the tubing 
segment and brush screen.

I now clean the fan adapter and paint.

I used a 6 inch carburetor air filter housing and filter to the round 6 inch 
intake on this blower.  I install a small cross bar across the opening so I 
can screw in a threaded rod to hold the air filter cover on.

I mount the base of the air cleaner housing to the fan opening by placing 
the cross bar on top and fasten with two sheet metal screws  that also go 
through a 1/8 inch rubber gasket I made out of the same material of all the 
rubber that was use for this project.

To change the air filter, all you have to do is spin off the wing nut and 
remove the filter, and the base and cross bar stays on.

I then install the air filter, the blow motor on the fan adapter and then 
can bolt and remove the whole unit using two bolts on the front taps.

I use a separate fan switch for this fan, so if I am doing maintenance or 
mod on this EV, I can keep the fans off while the motor is not running.  I 
normally leave this switch on all the time, and the ignition circuits turn 
on a solid state relay to control the fans.

This fan system has now been working for 34 years.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:13 AM
Subject: Cooling a Netgain Motor...


> Roland, it seems to me that I remember seeing a picture of your motor...
> The 'brush cover' was solid (no holes), and you had a blower motor forcing
> air through the motor.
>
> The 'brush' area of a Netgain is perforated (not quite like chicken wire)
> - but allows 'natural' air flow through the motor via this entrance.
>
> I'm wondering if - to help extend the life of the motor - I should replace
> the perforated cover with a solid one, and force air in -
> - where would I get such a blower?
> - what could I do to prevent the motor from overheating, in the event of
> blower failure?
>
> or, should I simply put a blower near the motor, and have it force air
> into that vicinity?
> or just leave it as it is, unless my driving conditions (traffic jams, for
> example) require additional cooling?
>
> My final questions have to do with 'air filtration' - (and is part of the
> reason for my question).
>
> Should I choose to put a blower motor on my Netgain, in a fashion similar
> to yours -
> Would I need a filter to keep debris (dust, dirt, etc) from being blown
> into the motor and potentially causing heat dissipation or corrosion
> problems?
>
> The windings flex (a little, right?) - Could a piece of sand get blown
> into the windings area, causing the slightly-flexing coils to (eventually)
> rub through the insulation, eventually causing motor failure?
>
> I'm guessing its rare, but I'd like to take precautions now, while my
> project is still in the build stage.
>
> Finally, how will dirt-road travel affect the brushes, commutator, heat
> dissipation, etc?
> If I had to guess, you probably don't recommend driving on dirt roads, if
> possible?
>
> Thanks!!
> Best Regards!
> Ed
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the responses. Let me give a little me info.

It's a currie scooter controller,motor,charger,throttle and fuel
gauge. And of course it is designed to use sealed lead acid batteries.

Range doesn't matter one bit. I'm willing to go down to even 2 amp hours or so.

The real problem is having a battery pack, consisting of 9-12 cells or
so, that'll put out 25 amps, and be light. I've heard that RC
batteries might good for that.

On 7/25/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A modern cell phone battery is 3.7 volts, and less than 1AH.  Designed
for a maximum discharge rate of about C/4 (or at least that's the
highest you'll see in a cell phone usually).  So, to get a 24 volt,
25AH bank (assuming you could discharge them at C/1), would require
200 to 300 cell phone batteries.

How about D-size NiMH batteries.  They are about $16 each for 9AH
ones, so $640 for a 18AH 24 volt pack....   the AA ones are alot
cheaper actually.  More like $350 for the same pack.  A couple of
cordless tool battery packs in parallel might be cheaper yet.

But, a 18AH lead acid AGM is alot less.... you can see why it was the
stock battery.

Z

On 7/25/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I need a battery that is as light as possible for my bicycle. Range
> > doesn't matter (and not to pricey please)
> >
> > The controller for the bicycle only pulls 25 amps. Since it's just 25
> > amps, can I use cell-phone batteries?
>
> Maybe, if you parallel a whole bunch of them.  25 amps is a LOT compared
> to what a cell phone draws, like maybe 50-100 times as much.
>
> >
> > Before I had sealed-lead acid batteries.
> >
> > Is it okay to use the original charger for a the new battery type?
> > (lithium, NiMH, or Ni-cad probably)
>
> Nope, not unless you want to ruin the new batteries.
>
> > And how about the "fuel meter." Is it okay to use a different type of
> > battery, (a different chemistry and probably a different amp-hour
> > rating) with the same old "fuel meter." I think the "fuel meter" is
> > really just a volt meter.
>
> No harm done, but it won't be of any use.  Most battery chemistries other
> than Lead-Acid maintain a pretty stable voltage until near the end of
> charge.  So you "fuel" gauge will show 80%...80%...80% and then in a few
> seconds drop to 0%
>
> > Is it possible to harm the system in any kind of way by using a
> > different battery type or amp-hour rating?
>
> Maybe, if the voltage doesn't match.
>
> Since you didn't mention any specifics about /your/ system, it's difficult
> to give anything other than vague answers.
>
>



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing too add, has anyone ever used PHET batteries before?
Are they good?

On 7/25/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. Let me give a little me info.

It's a currie scooter controller,motor,charger,throttle and fuel
gauge. And of course it is designed to use sealed lead acid batteries.

Range doesn't matter one bit. I'm willing to go down to even 2 amp hours or so.

The real problem is having a battery pack, consisting of 9-12 cells or
so, that'll put out 25 amps, and be light. I've heard that RC
batteries might good for that.

On 7/25/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A modern cell phone battery is 3.7 volts, and less than 1AH.  Designed
> for a maximum discharge rate of about C/4 (or at least that's the
> highest you'll see in a cell phone usually).  So, to get a 24 volt,
> 25AH bank (assuming you could discharge them at C/1), would require
> 200 to 300 cell phone batteries.
>
> How about D-size NiMH batteries.  They are about $16 each for 9AH
> ones, so $640 for a 18AH 24 volt pack....   the AA ones are alot
> cheaper actually.  More like $350 for the same pack.  A couple of
> cordless tool battery packs in parallel might be cheaper yet.
>
> But, a 18AH lead acid AGM is alot less.... you can see why it was the
> stock battery.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/25/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I need a battery that is as light as possible for my bicycle. Range
> > > doesn't matter (and not to pricey please)
> > >
> > > The controller for the bicycle only pulls 25 amps. Since it's just 25
> > > amps, can I use cell-phone batteries?
> >
> > Maybe, if you parallel a whole bunch of them.  25 amps is a LOT compared
> > to what a cell phone draws, like maybe 50-100 times as much.
> >
> > >
> > > Before I had sealed-lead acid batteries.
> > >
> > > Is it okay to use the original charger for a the new battery type?
> > > (lithium, NiMH, or Ni-cad probably)
> >
> > Nope, not unless you want to ruin the new batteries.
> >
> > > And how about the "fuel meter." Is it okay to use a different type of
> > > battery, (a different chemistry and probably a different amp-hour
> > > rating) with the same old "fuel meter." I think the "fuel meter" is
> > > really just a volt meter.
> >
> > No harm done, but it won't be of any use.  Most battery chemistries other
> > than Lead-Acid maintain a pretty stable voltage until near the end of
> > charge.  So you "fuel" gauge will show 80%...80%...80% and then in a few
> > seconds drop to 0%
> >
> > > Is it possible to harm the system in any kind of way by using a
> > > different battery type or amp-hour rating?
> >
> > Maybe, if the voltage doesn't match.
> >
> > Since you didn't mention any specifics about /your/ system, it's difficult
> > to give anything other than vague answers.
> >
> >
>
>


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- http://www.visforvoltage.net/ be sure to check this site out. It is mainly dedicated to e-bicycles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, July 24, 2007 11:08 pm, Jukka Järvinen wrote:
> I was involved in development of this EV mowler. And it operates 8 hours
> on batteries.
>
> http://www.actioneco.com/
>
> So I would say it IS doable with batteries too..
>
> -Jukka

That is one serious looking mower! It looks like you should wear a helmet
and fire suit. <g>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You've probably seen this site: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/624745

He indicates that his gained about 1000 lbs in the conversion.

On Mon, July 23, 2007 3:21 pm, Deb Hollenback wrote:
> Thanks Bruce for the valuable battery sizing and donor info!
>
>
> I neglected to include weight stats - a 70ish Ghia weighs close to 1900
> lbs curb weight.  I do not have GVW - anyone else know?  I'm guessing the
> ICE components removed will be around 600 lbs.  The main occupants
> of the vehicle will be myself and my lab/boxer - combined weight of 200lbs.
> I would like to add a passenger along with said pup
> occasionally - with the pup on a flat bed I envision to go over the
> batteries that will reside in the back seat.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV-1C 450 Amp controller says rated at 84V, 450A.  Is it possible to
run it at 120V (nominal) and turn down the Amp to maybe 350A?

Anyone with experience?

Thanks,
Brian

--
Brian in TX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/960
http://www.evdub.blogspot.com/
It may seem like I am doing nothing, but on a cellular level I'm
really quite busy.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Well, how much voltage do you need? A DeWalt 36v Li-ion pack using A123 cells would be perfect for you. You can get one under $100 on eBay or a little more in the store. It is a 36v and 2.3Ah. DeWalt also sells chargers for these packs. People have successfully used these batteries for a Currie scooter(and The Killacycle!!!) with great results. These babies will deliver you 100 amps or more!

If 36v doesn't work, then get NiMH Sub-C cells. Take a look at www.batteryspace.com and click the link "NiMH Packs 3.6-48V" and look at the Sub-C (Sc) battery packs and chargers.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Battery for a Bicycle?


Thanks for all the responses. Let me give a little me info.

It's a currie scooter controller,motor,charger,throttle and fuel
gauge. And of course it is designed to use sealed lead acid batteries.

Range doesn't matter one bit. I'm willing to go down to even 2 amp hours or so.

The real problem is having a battery pack, consisting of 9-12 cells or
so, that'll put out 25 amps, and be light. I've heard that RC
batteries might good for that.


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Pikkula wrote: 

> EV-1C 450 Amp controller says rated at 84V, 450A.  Is it possible to
> run it at 120V (nominal) and turn down the Amp to maybe 350A?

Look for a paper sticker on the control card (flat black box on the top
of the controller), usually on the side facing the row of power
terminals.  It should indicate the card part number and voltage range.
If it says something like 48 - 84 then I wouldn't try pushing it to
120V.

However, you should get lucky and see 84 - 144 VDC on the label.  If so
go ahead and run it at 120V.  I wouldn't worry about turning down the
current limit as my EV-1 is perfectly happy running on 120V and
routinely seeing 450A draws.  But, if you really want to, there is a
door on the control card that reveals a row of adjustment pots when
lifted.  Look on the underside of the door for a legend identifying the
purpose of each pot.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- That I do not have permission to tell. The manufacturing company is our customer. All information they wish to release is in their website.


-Jukka


Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
what model is the controller?

Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Ok. Dan .. I admit. It does have ringing noise when driving in low speeds. It is thou because the motor controllers are attached to chassis on that proto. The chassis works as speaker for them. We tested it with insulation parts. That noise will not be present in the production models.

It is quite silent. If you listen carefully you can hear birds and other surrounding noises in the background. The camera boosts the microphone levels if there is little noise and the mic is directed to the mowler.

But.. better you come and ride on it. So you know then.

I have to check if I have somewhere the noise level tests.. how many dB at what distance.. That's perhaps easier for you to compare.

-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
4:05 into the video it's the clearest. fairly clear high pitch ringing.
I tried to get the audio out for a frequency analysis but it's asf and I didn't have software for that.
I'm pretty sure the ringing is there

Dan

Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Read the specs from the site. Those are servos.

Actually all parts are common industrial components and can be found from cataloques => can have spareparts easily and cheaply.

Oh.. but isn't i *DAN* .. sure.. I did not hear any ringing noise? Did any one else ? Perhapes it's not the device that's ringing... eh.. ;)

There have been talks about bringing this version also out for professional use in normal lawns. No need for such accurate grass length measurements.

For the original problem... I think there could be a chance to make a conversion kit for certain OEM mowlers too. Prices will be interesting with Lions but hey.. quantities are what they are.

The battery pack exisits already and could be sold as is. It can be 8x 150/400 Ah (LiFePO4) or 7x 200/600 Ah (LiCoO). 3,2 kW charger and IP44 casing.


-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
cool. isn't that ringing annoying in the long run though?
what frequency is that at? 6000Hz?
no caps in the controller?

Dan

Jukka Järvinen skrev:
I was involved in development of this EV mowler. And it operates 8 hours on batteries.

http://www.actioneco.com/

So I would say it IS doable with batteries too..

-Jukka


David Hankins kirjoitti:
The problem with batteries is that it takes about 2.5 to 3 hours to do the
lawn. I don't think I can get that many batteries onboard without
overloading it.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Corded mower

You are looking at at least a 5 or 7 HP electric motor I'd bet. That means 240vac, 40A circuit or more -- not a regular extension cord. If you use a regular AC induction motor, it also tends to overheat under
voltage drop -- so a 200 foot cord is bad news.

I'd highly recommend doing a battery electric instead of corded
electric for something like this. It'll be easier, and likely cheaper
too.

Z

On 6/8/07, David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm thinking about converting my riding lawn mower to a corded electric.

I have some ideas to deal with the cord. I was thinking about using one of those cord reel setups. We'll have to see how it holds up reeling under load. Or maybe a coiled cord affair with a mast on the mower and elevated attach point on the house. The farthest point is around 200'+ from the
plug.
I have almost an acre under grass and It will get kind of dicey out on the
edge where about a 1/3 acre chunk has a dozen trees on it.

The main question that I have is: The current ICE motor on it is a 19HP
Briggs. What HP electric motor do I need to replace that?

Thanks

David




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:11 PM 25/07/07 -0500, Brian in TX wrote:
EV-1C 450 Amp controller says rated at 84V, 450A.  Is it possible to
run it at 120V (nominal) and turn down the Amp to maybe 350A?

Anyone with experience?

G'day Brian

On the side of the EV1's oscillator card (the black box that usually has the "EV1" sticker on it), there is a full model number and voltage range. Rumour has it that an 84V oscillator will work OK at 96V, but at some point in increasing voltage you'll burn it up.

Just above the side with the model number there is a flap that you can lift to get at various adjustments, including current limit.

What does the side of your oscillator assembly say?

Regards

[Technik] James

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I need to ask what exactly was done to get rid of the noise. At least the controllers were installed on a seperate "floating" board inside the vehicle. So it might be just vibration issue they solve by that way. Can't say.

-Jukka


(-Phil-) kirjoitti:
This probably isn't the motor controllers themselves generating the sound, so it doesn't matter how they are mounted. It sounds like the switching frequency is around 10khz which is a reasonable frequency, unfortunately it's within hearing range. The sound is likely emanating from the motors themselves, and it's hard to isolate them. If the noise was objectionable, then they would have to re-engineer the controllers to switch at above 15khz. I use 18khz in most of my designs so far.

-Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:21 AM
Subject: Re: Corded mower


Ok. Dan .. I admit. It does have ringing noise when driving in low speeds. It is thou because the motor controllers are attached to chassis on that proto. The chassis works as speaker for them. We tested it with insulation parts. That noise will not be present in the production models.

It is quite silent. If you listen carefully you can hear birds and other surrounding noises in the background. The camera boosts the microphone levels if there is little noise and the mic is directed to the mowler.

But.. better you come and ride on it. So you know then.

I have to check if I have somewhere the noise level tests.. how many dB at what distance.. That's perhaps easier for you to compare.

-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
4:05 into the video it's the clearest. fairly clear high pitch ringing.
I tried to get the audio out for a frequency analysis but it's asf and I didn't have software for that.
I'm pretty sure the ringing is there

Dan

Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Read the specs from the site. Those are servos.

Actually all parts are common industrial components and can be found from cataloques => can have spareparts easily and cheaply.

Oh.. but isn't i *DAN* .. sure.. I did not hear any ringing noise? Did any one else ? Perhapes it's not the device that's ringing... eh.. ;)

There have been talks about bringing this version also out for professional use in normal lawns. No need for such accurate grass length measurements.

For the original problem... I think there could be a chance to make a conversion kit for certain OEM mowlers too. Prices will be interesting with Lions but hey.. quantities are what they are.

The battery pack exisits already and could be sold as is. It can be 8x 150/400 Ah (LiFePO4) or 7x 200/600 Ah (LiCoO). 3,2 kW charger and IP44 casing.


-Jukka



Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
cool. isn't that ringing annoying in the long run though?
what frequency is that at? 6000Hz?
no caps in the controller?

Dan

Jukka Järvinen skrev:
I was involved in development of this EV mowler. And it operates 8 hours on batteries.

http://www.actioneco.com/

So I would say it IS doable with batteries too..

-Jukka


David Hankins kirjoitti:
The problem with batteries is that it takes about 2.5 to 3 hours to do the
lawn. I don't think I can get that many batteries onboard without
overloading it.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Corded mower

You are looking at at least a 5 or 7 HP electric motor I'd bet. That means 240vac, 40A circuit or more -- not a regular extension cord. If you use a regular AC induction motor, it also tends to overheat under
voltage drop -- so a 200 foot cord is bad news.

I'd highly recommend doing a battery electric instead of corded
electric for something like this. It'll be easier, and likely cheaper
too.

Z

On 6/8/07, David Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm thinking about converting my riding lawn mower to a corded electric.

I have some ideas to deal with the cord. I was thinking about using one of those cord reel setups. We'll have to see how it holds up reeling under load. Or maybe a coiled cord affair with a mast on the mower and elevated attach point on the house. The farthest point is around 200'+ from the
plug.
I have almost an acre under grass and It will get kind of dicey out on the
edge where about a 1/3 acre chunk has a dozen trees on it.

The main question that I have is: The current ICE motor on it is a 19HP
Briggs. What HP electric motor do I need to replace that?

Thanks

David


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Yeah. but one funy thing you can do too. Take the seat off the mowler, put is on the lawn apply some power to the seat and you can drive it from off board.... !! (not very practical thou)

Also there could be "follow me" built in. You drive one and two others are following the leader. With out drivers.

So, yeah.. driver could wear Martian suit. Some antennas sticking out of...

-Jukka


[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
On Tue, July 24, 2007 11:08 pm, Jukka Järvinen wrote:
I was involved in development of this EV mowler. And it operates 8 hours
on batteries.

http://www.actioneco.com/

So I would say it IS doable with batteries too..

-Jukka

That is one serious looking mower! It looks like you should wear a helmet
and fire suit. <g>



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I added some Elcat footages on YouTube.

Search with word "Elcat".

Enjoy..

-Jukka

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at NiMH, but the batteries seemed to be designed for cameras.

I've decided to stick with AGM since the charger I have is designed for AGM.

My charger, according to the label, puts out 24+ volts and 1.8 amps. I
know that if you have, let's say a 20 amp hour battery, the charging
current should be under 10 amps. So I decided that since my charger
puts out 1.8 amps, a 5 amp hour battery would be safe. These two
batteries (both 12 volt and 5 amp hours) One is from PowerSonic, and
the other is from Werker.

http://www.batteriesplus.com/p-30310-power-sonic-12v-5ah-agm-battery-with-187-terminal.aspx

http://www.batteriesplus.com/pc-32633-32633-WKA12-5F.aspx

Any experience with these two? Which one is better? Would these
batteries be suitable with the charger I described above?





On 7/25/07, Dmitri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, how much voltage do you need? A DeWalt 36v Li-ion pack using A123
cells would be perfect for you. You can get one under $100 on eBay or a
little more in the store. It is a 36v and 2.3Ah. DeWalt also sells chargers
for these packs. People have successfully used these batteries for a Currie
scooter(and The Killacycle!!!) with great results. These babies will deliver
you 100 amps or more!

If 36v doesn't work, then get NiMH Sub-C cells. Take a look at
www.batteryspace.com and click the link "NiMH Packs 3.6-48V" and look at the
Sub-C (Sc) battery packs and chargers.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Battery for a Bicycle?


> Thanks for all the responses. Let me give a little me info.
>
> It's a currie scooter controller,motor,charger,throttle and fuel
> gauge. And of course it is designed to use sealed lead acid batteries.
>
> Range doesn't matter one bit. I'm willing to go down to even 2 amp hours
> or so.
>
> The real problem is having a battery pack, consisting of 9-12 cells or
> so, that'll put out 25 amps, and be light. I've heard that RC
> batteries might good for that.
>



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many people with an EV on the EValbum got this
message, just curious,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hello, My name is Robert Green. I just saw your EV on
austinev albums and thought I'd invite you to a new EV
conversion community I'm starting up. The point of the
community is to organize conversion information, help
facilitate communication between DIYers like yourself
and others and bring in parts vendors and fabricators
all to a single location to help everyone's projects
out. The end goal is to have guides and kits available
for most makes and models of standard cars and
community support for those attempting their EV
conversions.

You have very valuable experience and information that
I think could seriously benefit others and I think you
will find more information valuable to you in the very
near future. What I'd really like is for you to
introduce yourself or post a little info about your
past or existing projects to help me jumpstart this
database. Several admins will be checking the site,
sorting and grouping the posts and data to make sure
the site is growing in ways constructive and helpful
to you. I want this to start by being a place for
experts but gradually work in good information for
people new to the hobby so we can make it more
accessible for more households to start driving
electric.

My name is 'rbgrn' on the forums and I will be
available for contact there or at this email address.
Please have a look at the site and hopefully I will
see you online!

DIY Electric Car Forums -
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/

Robert Green

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for your detailed responses everyone!

On 7/25/07, Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes, it does help alot! After careful reading and
> re-reading, I now understand.
>
> But I still have one pesky little question.

<snip>

>
> Why would the Zilla's output current drop if your
> accelerating? How
> could you accelerate if current is dropping without
> voltage
> increasing?
>

It's not quite straight forward; when trying to figure
this stuff out in your head, you can't think of a
motor as a resistor or something.  I have to re-think
it through every time I try to explain it to someone.
In the process, it's becomming clearer (to me)
though...

The Zilla's output current drops because it can't
output any more voltage at this point.  One of the
Zilla requirements for a series to parallel shift is
that the duty cycle has to be 100%.  In other words,
just as if the motors were connected directly to the
battery pack (minus a small voltge drop of the igbts,
resistive losses, etc).  So the Zilla is putting out
as much voltage as it can, and putting out current.
Since current is torque, torque is being applied to
the wheels.  As long as the vehicle losses (wind
resistance, rolling resistance, losses in drivetrain,
going uphill, etc) are less than the torque out of the
motors, the vehicle will accelerate, or speed up.  As
the motor RPMs increase (because the vehicle is
accelerating), the motors' back emf is also going up,
so the current is going down.

If motor torque is proportional to motor current, and
motor RPM is proportional to applied motor voltage,
why does the vehicle still accelerate when the
batteries are connected directly to the motors?
shouldn't the motors be at their max rpm for the given
battery voltage?  There are several reasons for this.
First, consider that motors have what are called motor
constants.  I think one is called Kv, expressed in RPM
per volt.  If Kv was 100 RPM per volt, it would say
that the motor should spin at 1,200 RPM with 12 Volts
applied to it.  Or it also says the back EMF is 12
Volts when spinning at 1,200 RPM (someone please
correct me if I'm wrong).  But since motors have
winding resistance, if you apply 12V, the voltage the
part of the motor that counts sees is lower, by the
voltage drop through the windings.  This voltage drop
goes down as current goes down, so the inside of the
motor sees more voltage and speeds up, as current goes
down.  For example, lets say the above motor has 1/2
ohm of winding resistance and is drawing 12 amps.  12
amps times 1/2 Ohm is 6V drop, so the motor will only
see 12V - 6V drop = 6V, and will only spin 600 RPM.
Calculating the current draw of this motor, spinning
at 600 RPM, with 12V applied, we get a back EMF of
(600 RPM / (Kv=100 RPM per volt)) = 6V.  The current
is (12 V applied voltage - 6V back EMF) / 0.5 Ohm
winding resistance = 12A.

Also, the car accelerates because as the motor current
drops, the battery voltage increases (due to the
battery's internal resistance, the wiring and
interconnect resistances, etc), and also the battery
simply "recovers" a bit as the load goes down, so more
voltage is applied to the motors this way.

I think that's enough of my rambling for now.  I hope
that helped more than it confused :-)

- Steven Ciciora


     
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--- End Message ---

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